Comments about ‘Role reversal: Gay-rights advocates 'not tolerant'’

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Published: Saturday, June 11 2011 11:38 p.m. MDT

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Riverton Cougar
Riverton, Utah

"It seems to me that slaves didn't get their freedom, women the right to vote, or blacks get some civil rights by the good will of the majority. The injustices had to be shown first then change had to be advocated. I'm sure at the beginning of this process the majority felt the minority was being intolerant and that they just needed to stay in their place where they belong."
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It's not about who is in the majority, and what the majority believes. It's about what's right. The LDS Church has opposed slavery, advocated blacks' rights and womens' rights, and now oppose gay marriage. What God says goes, regardless of the majority.

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"Mormons spent millions to deny California gays the right to marry."

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That statement is false. I'm pretty sure Mormons are completely fine with a homosexual man marrying a woman. What you refer to (a man "marrying" a man) is not marriage, as most of the nation realizes. Gays don't want marriage-- they deny themselves of that right by refusing. What they want is an alternative to marriage, which is an immoral option that we cannot allow.

DanO
Mission Viejo, CA

The ultimate display of prejudice is telling someone that they are not who they know they are in their heart. One of the most violent acts you can do is deny someone their identity. It's much easier to judge us when we're reduced to a single act. However, we, like all people are more complex than that. It's like saying that being LDS means you sit through church for three hours every week and that's your sole definition. Homosexual is a clinical term, but it encompasses only one piece of the entirety that is each of us.

sashabill
Morgan Hill, CA

People who use terms like "bigot" or "homophobe" to describe perspectives that differ from theirs are not much different from fundamentalists who use terms like "cult" to describe churches which they don't like. In both cases, the mentality seems pretty similar to me.

I campaigned actively for Proposition 8 in California. Nobody ever asked me how much money I contributed, no "suggested contribution" amount was ever mentioned. and no one tried to get me to contribute by using a tithing envelope.

Those who raise the issue of Separation of church and state in reference to LDS involvement in the Proposition 8 campaign seem to have no such problem with Unitarian and other religious liberal involvement on the opposite side of that issue. As a Mormon and former Unitarian, I find this rather amusing - not to mention blatantly hypocritical.

Stenar
Salt Lake City, UT

Bigotry should never be tolerated.

Seronac
Orem, UT

A few thoughts for everyone here:

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
-- John Adams

"All of our opinions are ultimately based on unproven and unprovable moral premises." UCLA law Prof. Eugene Volokh

Our beliefs are just that, beliefs, based on what we feel is true. We can argue until we're blue in the face and not get anywhere because the bases of our ideologies are entirely different.

One more: "People believe what they want to believe." Terry Goodkind, in "Wizard's First Rule"

Your argument is pointless and fruitless. Only the consequences of our decisions will influence us.

ClarkHippo
Tooele, UT

@slcskp 10:53 p.m.

You said - "When the gays start circulating petitions among the electorate to dissolve LDS marriages and interfere in your families, then we can have a legitimate discussion about how gay people and their supporters are just as intolerant as you are."

Actually, this is happening already.

-Feel free to browse Facebook or any number of gay rights blogs and you'll find petition drive after peition drive of people demanding the IRS sanction churches which will not marry gays and lesbian couples.

-In San Diego, straight firefighters sued the city after being forced to march in a Gay Pride Parade where they were repeatedly harrassed. The reaction from the gay community to the lawsuit has been, "Shut up and march, you homphobes."


@DanO 11:32

You said - "One of the most violent acts you can do is deny someone their identity."

And nobody does this better than the left. If your thoughts or lifestlye doesn't go along with theirs, you are automatically pegged as a racist, sexist, homophobic, ignorant, neocon facist.

Prejudice is actually okay, as long as the politcally correct thought police are the ones doing it.

RanchHand
Huntsville, UT

"We are unjustly called 'haters' and 'bigots' by those who have carefully framed their advocacy strategy,"

--- If you act like a bigot there is not reason you shouldn't accept the label gladly.

"... biblical worldview on sexuality..."
--- Fiction and superstition shouldn't be the basis of public policy.

I find it amazing that the actual bullies, those pushing to deny GLBT Americans the rights they themselves enjoy are trying to make themselves feel better by calling us the bullies. Pitiful actually.

There is absolutely no reason to tolerate bigotry. YOU all call US intolerant, yet when have we ever lobbied to legislate away YOUR religious rights? NEVER.

RanchHand
Huntsville, UT

Tekakaromatagi:
"There is no place in a progressive, tolerant society to persecute individuals for exercising their freedom of conscience. "

--- Exercise your consience all you want, you however, do NOT have the right to deny equality based on your "consience". Your conscience is for YOU to live by.

Seronac:
"What I don't understand is how they can say such opposition is hateful. I am opposed to gay marriage... They should have access to the legal rights that married people do, so I support a civil union, but marriage is a religious union, and their mandates regarding that arena infringe on religious rights."

---What about the religious rights of those religions that believe GLBT couples should be allowed to marry? Their religious rights are being denied and infringed by your religious rights. And Separate But Equal is not equal.

The Caravan Moves On:

"It absolutely shocks me that the pro-homosexual crowd demands that churches... has no right to get involved in matters of morality. "

--- Your church has every right to tell YOU how to live, but your church has abolutely NO RIGHT to tell Non-Members how to live or what is "moral".

RanchHand
Huntsville, UT

TJ:
"According to the bible homosexuality is "an abomination in the sight of God". "

---So is eating shellfish and wearing clothing made of multiple fibers. Yet you probably commit these abominations each and every day since you probably wear manufactured clothing. If you eat clams, oysters, shrimp and lobster, you also commit abominations. Where is your condemnation of these abominations?

sjgf:

"Replace homosexual with any other minority (Black, Jewish, Mormon)
You can't do that. Being black, or white, or some other race, is not a choice."

--- Homosexuality, just like Heterosexuality is also NOT a choice.

Hey It's Me
Salt Lake City, UT

In my neighborhood of Sugarhouse Park there are lots of gay people. I associate with them the same way I associated with my illegal neighbor, however, it doesn't mean I accept their position, it means I respect them because they are human. I bellieve they are both wrong in their positions, but I also know how to treat people with dignity. I believe they will be judged for their actions someday. I don't need to be a hater of polite, well mannered realy nice people. I don't think they should be allowed to marry, I think they should have pairrage. Two people pair up and unite. They are here on this earth to make choices and let someone else be the judge. I want to thank them for being caring loving neighbors. There are always a few bad apples that spoil it for everyone else (those that throw gayness in your face) but most of them are just as respectful of me as I am of them.

Albemar
West Jordan, UT

In typical fashion, the persecuting now claim to be the persecuted. Please hold onto your views and free speech. Please Anti-Gay followers, continue to explain how you promote discrimination, the world is watching and wising up to the reality of this promoting of prejudice. For decades this group has used these very same tactics to deny gay and lesbian families their equal rights and now cry fowl when the tables & tides are turned. Not much sympathy from me...

Pagan
Salt Lake City, UT

It is not my place to start calling the other side names. Like 'disgusting' or 'perverse' as been called homosexuals on this very site.

I will, point out a few things.

This story points out five examples of 'discrimination' based on taking a position AGAINST lgbt rights.

Five.

1) 31 states still have laws on record that allow you to be fired for being gay.

2) 14,000 service men/women have been, and continue to, be discharged under 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell.' Source? Service Members Legal Defense.

3) In the SLC Discrimination report from July 2009, there were x3 cases reported of discrimination in housing due to orientation alone.

Three cases, per month.

So, that's 31 states, 14,000 people discharged, and three cases per month in SLC alone...

compared to five.

While I would be foolish to say discrimination doesn't HAPPEN on both sides, I think this gives a clear indication as to WHICH side is actually being tolerant...

and which side is only playing, the victim.

LGBT face discrimination on a daily basis. And it is NOT protected by majoirty of goverment yet, as religion.

Choose the right side of history.

windsor
City, Ut

dcj07

Well said. Amen.

Riverton Cougar
Riverton, Utah

Some people suggest that we "take religion out" of legal issues, such as marriage. They claim the founding fathers were not religious or inspired by God in any way, only saying they were to appease the religiously-minded people.

However, I believe religion to be the foundation of society's view on right vs wrong. If we "take all religion out of it", as they say, then we would live in anarchy. As President James E. Faust said:

"Some who wish to appear broad-minded say, under the guise of not imposing religious belief, I dont drink or gamble, but I dont think we ought to have any laws to control others that wish to. This completely ignores the health and social costs to society of the vices. They foolishly argue that laws cannot control human behavior. My long legal career has led me to conclude that all criminal laws have a moral basis."

In the eyes of religion homosexuality is a crime (in fact, sexual sins are just behind murder in seriousness according to the Book of Mormon), so this can be considered a law with a moral basis. In the end, God will prevail.

tmaxr
Santa Rosa, Ca

Facebook groups demand legal action! Petitions! Democracy is SO unfair...

When gays start beating Christians to death, (as Christians did Matthew Sheperd, David Kato, Jose Sucuzhanay, Anthony Collao and Noxolo Nogwaza) Christians will have reason to complain. Until then, they just sound like a bunch of whiny bullies complaining there's nobody to beat up and rob of their lunch money.

Who ELSE thought he'd have black slaves serve him in a utopian fantasyland after this world ended in flames?

Oh yah. Charly Manson.

After being raped by bigger black kids in the Indiana reformatory, Manson joined the Church of Scientology.

"Once you get men to believe absurdities, it's easy for them to commit atrocities."
-Voltaire

Sharon Tate found that out the hard way. Bullies and rapists in an Indiana reformatory helped create the world's most famous serial killer. Not petitions or democracy. Get a sense of proportion, please, your sufferings are nothing compared to the victims of gay bashing, "corrective rape" and Uganda's "Kill the Gays" culture, imported by American Christian groups like Doug Coe's "The Family."

Charly Manson had a family, too.

American First
Merced, CA

Sexual preference doesn't rise to the level of a human trait such as race or sex, the only characteristic that binds gay rights special interests is behavioral deviance and social pestilence.

22ozn44ozglass
Southern Utah, UT

I am surprised that the AP would even run such an article as this given the fact that it is so politically incorrect to say anything, no matter how true it is, that does not portray the gay community in a positive light.

The intolerance of the gay community was clearly manifest in the early 70's when gay activists used intimidation, threats, violence, disruption of academic conferences, deception, political pressure, and subversion to get the APA remove homosexuality from the DSM list of mental disorders. The change to the DSM took place in 1973, and the gay activists at the heart of the campaign to either discredit psychiatry or to force them to change the DSM openly admitted and bragged that this change was due to political pressure and intimidation and not due to a multitude of paradigm changing studies.

Oddly enough this change was made with more than half of the voting membership voting on this issue, and many of those doctors who opposed the change were politically blackballed for openly stating their opposition to removing homosexuality from the DSM list of mental disorders.

RanchHand
Huntsville, UT

@RivertonCougar & America First;

And you say we're the intolerant ones.

I can assure you that I'm no murderer nor am I a "social pestilence". Can Organized Religion say the same thing? Think the Inquisition and Salem Witch Trials before you answer that.

And if God will be the judge, then why are you usurping his role?

DanO
Mission Viejo, CA

"I'm pretty sure Mormons are completely fine with a homosexual man marrying a woman."

Talk about social experiments. Do you have a daughter you'd like to have marry a gay man?

ClarkHippo
Tooele, UT

After reading Larry H. Miller's autobiography "Driven" I was impressed by the fact he discussed the incident involving the movie Brokeback Mountain.

Soon after Miller pulled the movie from his theaters (In a way which in hindsight he wish he had handled better) Miller attended a meeting of LGBT students at the U of U. He described being moved to tears upon hearing how gay and lesbian couples were harrassed at movie theaters and in other of Miller's facilities. In this way, the Brokeback Mountain incident, from Miller's perspective, turned out to be a good thing.

A news article such as this one must have the same affect on all sides. No matter how strongly you feel about the subject of same-sex marriage, it will do no good to malign, mock or bully people you have never even met.

Wasn't there some old war story about seeing the white's of your enemy's eyes before you shoot? Maybe if we all truly looked into the white's of each other's eyes, we wouldn't feel so inclined to harrass and bully one another.

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