Agree wholeheartedly. Nice catch on the state legislation provision Deseret News
:) I was in the middle of commenting on it when corrected.
Can I also go to Heaven illegally and then "square up" with God once I
get there so I can stay?
So how will this go over with the Utah Republican delegates in
Utah-Davis-Washington counties? I smell a problem. As for this Utah Catholic a
big "Thank you" to the LDS Church for this.
I agree with this statement. I too would put in place something
that allows people to work in this country without the need to become criminals
in so doing. And I wouldn't make it too onerous, either.I would
encourage those who want to have that privilege to lobby their fellow citizens
to STOP stealing identies: social security numbers, fake green cards, bogus
driver's licenses, etc. And those who benefit from the migrant labor force
ought to realize that they are partly responsible for the situation getting out
of hand and the jeopardy they are encouragning for individuals and families.
Surely they weild enough influence to get the Federal Government to do
something.Of course the Feds have been on the opposite side of the
Church's views in the past few hundred years a few times, so unfortunately I
lack the faith that they will suddenly be motivated to do the correct thing; or
to do anything at all.
I support the churches statement, may we all look at each other as Gods
Children. They clearly state that they do not accept illegal behavior from its
members but they do support treating everyone with love and respect. Also they
hit it dead on that illegal immigration needs to be handled by federal level.
"The history of mass expulsion or mistreatment of individuals or families
is cause for concern especially where race, culture or religion are involved.
This should give pause to any policy that contemplates targeting any one group,
particularly if that group comes mostly from one heritage.========================There is absolutely NO reason to insert this in
any comment on the removal of the illegal aliens from the United States. Mass
expulsion without serious cause has never happened in our country, and I pray,
never will. In our case, employers use the illegal aliens at a very low wage
rate, and the illegal aliens then turn to welfare to make that wage 'livable'.
That certainly helps the employers, and it costs the taxpayers a fortune.It is a very offensive comment in this context.
As for this Utah Mormon, it's nice to be vindicated every once in a while by
your own church. I hope the state legislature, tea-partiers, and conservatives
all get the message. Maybe we just need more Mormon Dems? Anybody?
Amen- now to the tricky part "treat each other as children of God."
Not always as easy as it sounds and makes for some room for interpretation- but
conceptually- once again- Amen
Amen. Although I am sure the Republicans in the Legislature will find some way
to sidestep this advice or ignore it.
This is the right stance on the issue. I support this position and hope my
representatives will also. I plan on getting involved at the grassroots level to
see that these guidelines are followed and to stand up to those who will again
try to flood the caucuses and conventions with other, less thoughtful and
effective (IMHO) approaches. I guess I'm a Doug-Wright conservative on this
It's an official statement. I love how the gospel works. Differencing between
and "ideology" and the gospel is important people. Sadly many,
especially politicians, are trapped in this ideology's.
@Adam. Yes. Romans 3:23-26.
Once again to enlighten those that don't know, unlawful presence is only a
Federal Civil matter not criminal, that is why the LDS Church lets these people
hold important callings, go on missions and have temple recommends. If you are
caught crossing the border without inspection that is criminal, if you are not
caught or if you overstay a visa it is only civil more like a speeding ticket.
The Church is saying they don't encourage people to come over without the proper
paperwork or to overstay their visas but they are also telling the Government
that we should look for a reasonable solution allowing them to "Square
up" Making it seem like it is a criminal matter is misleading. Having said
this I don't advocate having them come over without the proper papers either but
I don't think we can reasonably mass deport these people and in good conscience
separate millions of families either. Most of these families have some of the
children born in the US making the problem even more difficult. I commend the
Church for their statement and now we plead with the Federal Government to take
@joelwisch - I would disagree with your comment. The LDS Church and its
membership were expelled from Missouri. For more info I would read about the
1838 Mormon Ward and Missouri Executive Order 44 on Wikipedia and elsewhere. I
too pray that such a mass expulsion based on race, culture, or religion does not
happen again in this country. I pray and hope that our leaders in Washington
will put political popularity aside and take up this national issue. Seems like
a bipartisan, non-partisan, federal endeavor would be much more productive than
the judicial branch fighting the states for attempting to solve the problem that
our national leaders are too afraid to tackle themselves.
Enforcement is the ONLY problem that exists regarding illegal immigration.We already have work visas for temporary workers. They come to work but
forget to go home.The ONLY culture/ethnic group that we currently
have problems with regarding immigration violations seem to be those south of
our border. Why should we pretend OTHER cultures are involved.As a
ward employment specialist I have problems finding jobs for MY NEIGHBORS.If we allow any and all who manage to arrive here to work, how do we
find jobs for actual Utah citizens? Especially if we want to guarantee minimum
wages.Utah citizens WILL use kindness and compassion in dealing with
illegal aliens, (they always have) but, frankly, we can't afford to keep
supporting any/all who manage to arrive here.
I agree with joelwisch. The implication of the church in that statement is that
our immigration policy is heartless. We invite more family members, refugees
and asylees LEGALLY than any other nation on earth. We provide a free public
education and free emergency care. We provide an appeals process to those who
are caught here illegally. And we are taken advantage of by 12 million
people!All that is left in the context of that statement is amnesty.As for the racial overtones the church suggests, it is a demographic reality
that the vast majority of illegal aliens are Hispanic, about 80% by most
estimates. Activists have made it appear to be a racial issue. I for one am
just as concerned about the unlawful presence of Asians, Europeans and Africans
as I am of Latinos.The rule of law ought to be color-blind.
joelwisch:read some Mormon history,American Indian history American Japanese history and then tell me mass expulsion hasn't happened.
To our friend from Albuquerque who said that "mass expulsion without
serious cause has never happened in our country", I would simply point out
the history of our Native Americans & also the relocation of Japanese to
internment camps during WW II.
I agree with the church's statment 100 percent! Now if the Federal government
would just enforce the laws on the books then this issue would solve its self.
Also we can end the status quo for current welfare. if a person is able body to
work and is on food stamps or medicaid they should do the work that most
Americans don't want to do. Maid service picking crops, construction, etc...to get the welfare they now enjoy with out the labor. then when ilegal's try
to find work sorry we don't need you we have plenty of our citizens that have to
work to get bennifits. Doing it that way does a few things it helps those on
welfare gain back self worth 2nd it makes it so the ilegal imagrant has no
options but take themselves back to were they came on their accord.
To Joel. Now go back and read that WHOLE sentence, not just what you cherry
picked out of it. It says, "The history of mass expulsion or mistreatment
of individuals..." You conveniently left out "mistreatment".
Now think about how native americans, blacks or even Japanese Americans (during
WWII) have been treated in our past. Kind of gives credence to that statement,
Secring the borders is the key. A widespread desire for excessive punishment for
an offense that doesn't even rise to the level of an infraction or crime is
puzzling. We should not rationalize cruelty and hateful, dehumanizing attitudes
toward hispanic illegal aliens because of the fact the are here illegaly and
changing our society. I agree that Understanding and tolerance can be applied
while looking for civil and balanced soultions to a long-ignored prolems.
Illegals aliens themselves are often cheated and ecploited.
Please. Lets stop pretending illegal immigrants are victims. They are criminals.
The fact that they desire a better life is understandable. The fact that choose
to break the law in order to achieve it, is not. The USA can no longer afford to
absorb every person on Earth who desires a better life. The more we do, the more
our own quality of life is diminished.
"Mass expulsion without serious cause has never happened in our
country,"Of course, there's always a serious cause. "Can I also go to Heaven illegally and then "square up" with
God once I get there so I can stay?"Considering there is not a
soul who doesn't need the Atonement of Christ to stay in heaven, I would say the
need to "square up" with God applies to absolutely everyone. The
difference is, Heaven has a perfect immigration policy to begin with, so the
squaring up has already happened before anyone enters. America's immigration
policy results in all sorts of people, who have no legitimate reason to be
prohibited from staying in the country, suddenly finding themselves in a
position where they need to "square up." Comparing Heaven and America
in regards to immigration is like comparing apples to Morris Day and the Time.
"As a matter of policy, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
discourages its members from entering any country without legal documentation,
and from deliberately overstaying legal travel visas." So
breaking the law is discouraged. I can see the temple recommend interview
now:Are you robbing banks, breaking into homes, committing fraud?
You know we discourage these things. If you are doing them we encourgage you to
stop.Now next question,
Much in the LDS Church immigration statement makes sense and sounds
compassionate, but much is evasive gobbledygook, sounding like a weak attempt to
be politically correct and kowtowing to an ever increasing, albeit illegal
segment of Utah society. The church is apparently against mass expulsion in
general, but even more so when mostly from one heritage. For me, that smacks of
being a respecter of persons. The last paragraph extolling compassion, family
and law is ambiguous at best and begs the question, When a family (or
individual) is in violation of the law, should compassion supersede the law?
"If we allow any and all who manage to arrive here to work, how do we find
jobs for actual Utah citizens?"I suppose that's a fair
question, but if we see everyone as sons and daughters of God, wouldn't we have
to also ask how we find jobs for everyone? Sending illegal immigrants home does
not take care of the fact that they still have no way of providing for their
families. Our responsibility to care for all of God's children does not end with
The ones who work hard and play by the rules are an economic benefit to our
nation. This is why the government won't kick them out. The ones who are gang
members and criminals are a drag on our national well being.The fact
they aren't citizens means we can pick and choose, we can kick out the bad ones
and keep the rest, which is what the Obama administration says it is doing. Not
only is this compassionate it is to our benefit.How nice it would be
if we could criminals and gang menbers who are citizens out of the country.
to Joelwisch: I need to disagree with your thought that that particular portion
of the statement is "offensive". I read the statement in that it
suggests RATHER STRONGLY that we not zero in on one nationality or heritage, in
this case Hispanics, as our government takes whatever action(s)it will take.
That whatever is done needs to be applied equally across the board to any and
all immigrant groups.
Does this mean that the church will no longer have missionaries overstay their
visas--either in this country or in others? While we tried to follow the laws
on my mission, we had several missionaries, including myself, that overstayed
our official visas while witing for renewals.I absolutely agree
though, that there should be a way of allowing people to gain legal status if
they have been responsible, productive members of society while here.
I hope our Legislators pass Rep. Sanstroms E-verify Bill.
@rallredWrong! Repentance takes place before one goes to heaven. Romans
3:23-26 does not support your statement.Can mercy rob justice? No,
not one whit.Illegal aliens broke our laws. Many commit identity fraud.
They overburden out social services and cost us a fortune in so many ways.I think we need a guest worker program where they can come and work here
for a limited period of time (3 to 5 years?) and go home when they are done.
They should also come here with the understanding that their children born here
will not be citizens.We should also make it impossible for people to
stay here if they are not legal.1. Offer a $10,000 reward to the
first person who turns in an employer who hires illegal aliens without
exercising due diligence to keep them out. The employer gets to pay a $15,000
fine.2. Make it illegal to rent to anyone who is not here legally. The
penalty would be: They have to refund all the rent. 100% chance of getting
caught.Compassionate: Yes (guest worker program)Justice:
AbsolutelyDo not make a mockery of out laws.
I am seriously disappointted in the LDS Churches position.....Its
time that we invade Mexico and clean up the corrupt govt to stop the flood of
mexican's fleeing tyranny across our border.....The Church could do
alot by encouraging the same....
We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in
obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.Thanks for this.
RE:joelwischFirst of all I think the mass expulsion of LDS church
members from missouri, and pretty much anywhere they tried to settle until the
move to Utah is an example of mass expulsion without cause in our nations
history.Second of all I dont think that the church is refering
solely to the history of mass expulsion in the United States. I hope we can
agree that in general that mass expulsion based on "race, culture or
religion" is bad and sadly has happened many times in human history.
Shockingly enough this has been suggested by some as a solution to this problem.
I'm actually very impressed by this statement as a tool to clarify
the churches position. The points made that stood out to me are1.
Illegal immigration can cause instablilty and may become unsustainable2.
The federal government is urged to come up with a solution because it is their
responsibility3. We must proceed with compassion.
A couple of comments suggest that being here illegally (I call it Immaculate
Presence) is a civil infraction.True enough, but the penalty for violation
of that civil law is removal.I can live with that. The trouble is they
are not being removed.People are not demanding round-ups, just enforcement
of existing law. I thought the church taught the same thing. I guess there are
exceptions where baptismal statistics are concerned.
I fully support allowing a needed number of workers to stay and work at or above
minimum wage under the following conditions:-They mush register with
the government and check in periodically (every few months, or so).-They will have no path to full citizenship or voting rights while here. The
path to these benefits does not begin by illegally entering the country. (I
have a feeling this requirement won't fly well with people who are trying to
artificially create voter-support for one party or the other.)-Once
the registration period has ended, enforcement of non-compliance is greatly
enhanced at all levels (border, local, federal).
These principles have proven themselves over the years. As we have seen, some
elected officials and despots try to rule unjustly. At least, we have the
ballot box within the United States. A lot of citizens don't vote that should
and would make a difference. 1 We believe that governments were
instituted of God for the benefit of man; and that he holds men accountable for
their acts in relation to them, both in making laws and administering them, for
the good and safety of society.2 We believe that no government can
exist in peace, except such laws are framed and held inviolate as will secure to
each individual the free exercise of conscience, the right and control of
property, and the protection of life.3 We believe that all
governments necessarily require civil officers and magistrates to enforce the
laws of the same; and that such as will administer the law in equity and justice
should be sought for and upheld by the voice of the people if a republic, or the
will of the sovereign.
Adam | 11:20 a.m. June 10, 2011 Salt Lake City, UT Can I also go to
Heaven illegally and then "square up" with God once I get there so I
can stay? ================= Uh, ya.If you
are LDS and really understand how the Atonement works, That's precisedly
Adam makes a GREAT point about sneaking into heaven illegally and squaring up
with God to make things ok so I can now stay. "The Church supports an
approach where undocumented immigrants are allowed to square themselves with the
law and continue to work without this necessarily leading to citizenship".
I have to wonder what the term "square themselves with the law"
means?? If a thief breaks into a hardware store and steals the cash then decides
to "square" with the law he certainly doesn't get to keep the cash nor
does he avoid jail. Illegal means "ILLEGAL" and when you do something
that is illegal there are consequences. As a member of the LDS church I am
confused - honestly - with the middle ground the Church is trying to play here.
On one hand we say we believe in honoring, obeying and sustaining the law and
then we reverse course and say we discourage illegal entry into the US but if
you are illegal and you happen to be here ... well it's ok and you can just stay
here and continue to do whatever you were doing. Can't have it both ways.
I'm sure this statement has been put out as a result of the raging debate over
HB116, and the current efforts by many in the state to repeal it. The article
makes the following statement: "The Church supports an approach where
undocumented immigrants are allowed to square themselves with the law and
continue to work without this necessarily leading to citizenship."It sounds to me like the church is still supporting the amnesty part of 116,
since they still want to allow people here illegally the right to work and stay
here. Yet, they want it to APPEAR that they support the rule law. I think that
the church cannot have it both ways. Either you support the constitution of
this country and the laws it represents - or you don't.
How about not baptizing anyone who enters the country illegally?
I am grateful for this statement on the reaffirmation of our heritage and values
that points to the higher way of resolving the current problems of unjust law in
the American Immigration system. Remember how our forefathers dealt with
unjust law in that less than perfect colonial day: the original Tea Party
members broke the unjust law of their day as did their fellow revolutionaries.
Members and non members of today's Tea Party know we have unjust immigration law
in America; may we unite together for the betterment of our society and fix the
unjust law, appropriately on the federal level. And encourage our leaders and
representatives to pass just immigration law that reflects our heritage and
common values of the brotherhood of man and loving thy neighbor as thy self.
the reason the Church is taking such a soft and confusing stance on immigration
is because they need to have good relations with Mexico for continuing to do
missionary work and for building temples. I am a bit troubled by this to be
honest. Don't we sing the hymm "Choose the right" which states do what
is right and let the consequence follow"? In other words OBEY the law of
the land .. PERIOD... and then trust in the Lord that by doing the right thing
he will support you. We can certainly be humain and kind to illegal's just like
we need to be humain and kind to a teenager who is busted for DUI but that does
NOT mean we need to also waive the consequences of their actions. Illegals need
to be deported and then allowed to come to America in the right way ... by
obeying the law and earning the right of true citizenship. By allowing millions
of law breakers to stay here we punish the lawful citizens of the US by imposing
increased taxes to support the illegals and the loss of millions of jobs as
I'm glad they have made the statement about entering any country without obeying
the law of the land. I think there are lots of people that have
entered or overstayed when visa'a expire that should be made to obey the law of
the land. I think the mass exodus of law breakers to their own home
country should not be equaled with those forced to leave their home country by
violence.I agree all things done with respect to all concerned,
including the tax payer and citizen that is footing the bill. I also
think that if you are not a citizen of a country and enter illegally any
children born to you should continue to the citizens of their parents country.
Illegals should not gain from their crimes. You did not subject yourself to the
laws of our country and you cannot bestow citizenship on your children.
joelwisch:Remember this isn't written just to the Utahns, or just to
the Americans. This is a well written, clear, and fair policy statement that
applies to all countries, all governments, and to all individuals.
@LDSLiberal"Uh, ya.If you are LDS and really
understand how the Atonement works,That's precisedly what happens.
"Nope! Not how it works.Nobody goes to heaven ILLEGALLY.
@Say No to BO they can't even go arrest many of these people because they don't
have their names and addresses. Many of the real criminals have guns and ICE
does not want to go into these dangerous places so they choose to go after and
deport the easier cases of people that are not hiding that have applied to fix
their cases. Last year they deported almost half a million people and half of
those had no criminal record. At this rate it will take over 24 years to deport
all of them assuming that no more come in without inspection.(Right) Your right
that the penalty is removal and when they do this most of the time families are
separated, it is part of their consequences. Criminals still on probation are
not baptized but if you have a civil infraction or a speeding ticket this does
not hold up your baptism nor should it. Legally they can't just round them up,
to go to their homes they are supposed to have a warrant or deportation order
and there are millions that we just don't have information on.
To Bompar-I'm sure that when you (and I) get before God's judgment
bar, we'll be hoping that "compassion supersedes the law." If that's
the case on the other side, then perhaps it's time we started practicing it in
earnest in the here and now.
This statement points out both sides of the issue. That is, you have to treat
the families here illegally with some respect. At the same time, it is saying
that no one should be here illegally. The federal government needs to take care
of this issue. Unfortunately, I find both political parties unwilling to do what
is needed (but, Republicans are more inclined to act). I don't believe this
statement is against Utah's legislative efforts. The states need to pass
legislation in order to send a message to the federal government that they
ultimately need to act in a similar fashion. What the states pass must be
sensitive to those already here. I don't like that these illegals are getting a
relatively easy path to staying here, but the statement did not say they should
be granted citizenship. It did say to document their presence in an orderly
manner. That is the crux of the problem on immigration. That is, there is no
control or order to our borders. The statement is not against a wall or secure
border. It just wants sensitivity given to those here while illegal immigration
must be stopped.
Very intesting. A lot of general statements, but one thing was loud and clear:
the Church believes that who comes and goes in the various states is solely a
federal issue. I can't say I disagree, but I wonder how church members in
border states, like Arizona, will react.
This is going to put many people in this state between a rock and a hard
place.I'm calling it now and saying most will choose to side with
their politics over their religion on this.
If you agree with this Church statement you must like the slavery and depressed
wages for unskilled workers in the United States. Since none of the comments
seem to come from the unskilled labor folks, I suppose their plight should be
ignored? There is no limit on the number of guest workers that could receive the
"Utah Guest Worker Permit." Then again maybe the federal government
should stop trying to keep out those that want to improve their standard of
living, come to the Utah and supply the cheap labor desired by employers that
want to continue paying slave labor wages. Don't complain about the
economy and those on food stamps and welfare if you agree with the LDS Church,
and the Chamber of Commerce that want to flood the unskilled labor market with
foreign cheap labor. By the way, this state delegate and my wife who
is also a delegate will be voting for The Repeal HB116 Resolution at the
Republican State Convention on the 18th.
Wow you can break the law (be here illegally - KUTV) and still hold a temple
recommand, callings and the priesthood but if you smoke or drink or live with a
person who you are not married to, all of which are legal you can't have a
recommand. My point - being here illegally is wrong. So is smoking,
drinking and shacking up with a person of the opposite sex and yes families can
be destroyed by even doing the things which are legal. People who
are here illegally are taking jobs from those who are actually citizens of this
state/country. In our ward we have two people who are from other countries here
because the person they married is a citizen and both of these foreigners have
jobs. While the persons I speak of are wonderful people sorry but those who are
born in this country should be the ones with the jobs that they hold.
In stating that the church "discourages members to cross borders illegally
or overstay visas", what does that mean exactly? Most of the other church
policies are pretty black and white. For example in the Word of
Wisdom, Law of Chastity, the church doesn't just "discourage" people
from smoking, drinking alcohol, etc... but is very clear that this affects an
individuals worthiness for the temple and in some cases callings. The church
also delves into civil matters, asking whether or not a member is paying
state-ordered child support when determining worthiness.Simply
stating that it discourages something, without any clear penalty seems to be the
same thing as encouraging members to drive safely and obey traffic laws when
they leave the conference center... Perhaps it should consider
returning to its previous policies of not actively converting illegal aliens
(asking them to return to their homeland before being taught the gospel)
The illegals had a chance to "square themselves with the law" before
they came here illegally. There is already a "path to citizenship" for
people from other countries who want to live in the USA. Illegal immigrants
chose to bypass that path when they came here illegally and they should not be
rewarded for having done so.....
It is interesting that some have critisized the LDS Church, saying that there
have never been any mass expulsions here in the United States. Please Look up
the extermination order issued by Governor Liliburn Boggs against the Mormons.
re:RantBully actually the statement goes much further than you have
stated. For those who are here illegally (those who have broken the law and
crossed our borders) get to stay here and keep doing whatever they were doing as
long as they "square with the law". We can and should treat all people
with kindness and sensitivity but that does not imply turning our head to the
consequences of law breakers. Illegals should be deported (with kindness) and
then encouraged to obey the laws of the US and "earn" their
citizenship the right way just like millions of their fellow countrymen have
though out the past 200 years. It's as if there are no negative consequences for
the LEGAL citizens of Utah which is completely false. Taxes much be raised to
support the flood of illegals not to mention the violent crime and illegal drugs
they bring with them. We can be kind and sensitive while at the same time
enforce the laws of our country. Yes we can do both and we should do both.
Well articulated policy. As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints, I would hope that my fellow members and myself can set the example of
compassion and fairness towards immigrants of all types, understanding and
empathizing with those who truly seek a better life for themselves and their
families. As a citizen of the United States, I hope we can find better solutions
that provide easier means for those who will add to the diversity and industry
of our country to immigrate legally, and not forcing them to break laws out of
necessity for survival.
If Utah were to adopt an open border, amnesty approach as stated you can look no
further than California to understand the long term economic consequences -
BANKRUPTSY. California adopted the same "look the other way" approach
to illegal immigration and now they are broke. Not really hard to figure out why
a state can't simply absorb millions of illegals with no economic consequences.
Thank you NightTrader for broadening the discussion. As a child of a Danish
immigrant, my thoughts immediately go to Denmark and their current problem with
thousands and thousands of Muslims seeking citizenship there. FYI, that nation
is trying its best to stem the tide, too, even passing a recent law that
non-Danish citizens must be age 25 to marry in Denmark. Since most Danes today
either marry quite late or don't marry at all, this law was passed to discourage
Muslims, who are encouraged to marry as young as age 18, from choosing to reside
there. I am pleased that the LDS Church has released this Statement and know it
will remind Latter-day Saints in countries around the world to treat all as our
brothers and sisters.
The funny thing is, Jeff Wilbur is spot on. Many who claim to be faithful LDS
will choose their political party line over what their religion teaches on this
I definitely agree with the Church's stance on this. I've said this before, but
it's always been my feeling that when it comes to illegal immigrants, three
things need to happen:The federal government needs to start doing
its job - and also stop sueing the states who try to take up the slack when it
doesn't do its job;Those who are here illegally need to take steps
to remedy that, and make restitution for breaking the law (and there are all
sorts of ways that can be done: paying a fine, community service, serving a
short jail sentence, being deported and coming back through other means,
etc.);And then solutions should be found to help them stay, so long
as they aren't wanted for another crime in this or any other country. If they're
otherwise law-abiding, productive members of society, then we should come up
with a solution to help them stay.
To Bompar-I'm sure that when you (and I) get before God's judgment
bar, we'll be hoping that "compassion supersedes the law." If that's
the case on the other side, then perhaps it's time we started practicing it in
earnest in the here and now. --------------------How right you
are. However, Im not sure the condition of ones heart can be meaningfully
applied to immigration; immigration compliance may be more in the legal arena,
perhaps more akin to ones willingness to accept baptism. Which leads to another
situationthere may be room for everybody in heaven. Utah? I'm thinking not so
It doesn't matter how many times or ways the Brethern say it -- There will
always be those who will put political party ideology, Fox News, and Limbaugh,
Beck, Levin, and Hannity; over what the Lord has clearly and repeatedly
Thus, to all of those who are here illegally, please keep paying your tithing
and we will keep giving you a temple recommend. This isn't that hard to see
between the lines here ..
Idealogues worship their own ideology. When living Prophets speak and that
ideology is shown to be flawed, the clear choice is between repentance and
apostasy. (Those who imply the Brethren's position is based onnumbers of
baptisms have already made that choice.)Simplistic extremism and
sloganized thinking are almost always out of step with the true Kingdom of God.
Complex problems require complex solutions. Let us literally thank the Lord for
kind and compassionate leaders who love all God's children equally, and who
refuse to descend into political gamesmanship.
"Mass expulsion without serious cause has never happened in our country,
and I pray, never will."Try looking up the Trail of Tears. Or
heck, in a way the 1840s LDS members were kicked out.
The Church IS accepting illegal behavior from its members when it allows the
benefits derived from church membership to those who have clearly broken the law
of the land. Until the borders are physically secured by the
Federal government, states are forced do do something to protect its own
citizenry. They have the moral and legal right to do so. Unless the borders
are so secured, this country can look to California as a microcosm of what is to
come. I personally will save my sympathetic help for those of any
nationality who made the conscientious and expensive effort to come here
legally, as well as to those sorely affected and displaced because illegals have
taken food out their mouths. And that means all the law-abiding actual
I agree with the Church's statement but one thing I am still having a problem
with is the idea of encouraging illegals to cross the border(breaking the law.
I agree wholeheartely with fitness freak, we as a nation cannot continue with
this financial drain! The big problem is the Feds aren't doing ANYTHING with
immigration, that's why the states are trying to get something going! I think
the chruch is "politely" trying to say...."GO HOME"!
OK, being here illegally does not restrict church service but how does one live
who is here without a visa. They steal or make a false identity, work for cash
and don't pay taxes, lie on their employment application if they fill one out.
Do these things restrict church service?
I am amazed at the number of people who equate man-made laws with the moral
absoluteness of the decalogue. Others in this discussion have referred to this
problem - allow me to be more blunt.- Jim Crow laws were the
"law of the land" well into my lifetime. They should NEVER have been
obeyed.- It was illegal for Mormons to vote in the state of Idaho until
the 1970's. No one obeyed that law.Our current immigration policies
are as inherently racist and ignorant as Jim Crow and anti-mormon or
anti-catholic laws were - there is no way around it. The rhetoric against
hispanic immigrants now is exactly the same - virtually verbatim -- as the
vitriol spewed against Catholic immigrants in the 1800s. (Sidenote: I have yet
to meet ANYONE who pointed to a job and said, "That Columbian person took
that job from me!")To reflexively say "we believe in
obeying the laws of the land" is silly. What you REALLY mean is "we
believe in obeying the laws I like."Have we progressed so
little in the last 200 years?I bless you my neighbors to the south
for trying to create compassionate compromise.
It is one thing to question the churchs position on specifics, but it is quite
another thing to publicly chastise the church and its leaders for abandoning its
teachings....at one point claiming the church is separating itself from the 12th
Article of Faith and the rule of law.....and supporting criminal activities such
as illegal immigration. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has
abandoned its claims to neutrality apparently. Of course the Church has this
stance....afterall...there is an estimated 50 to 75 percent of members in Utahs
100-plus Spanish-speaking congregations that are undocumented. That includes
many bishops, branch presidents, even stake presidents. The church sends
missionaries among undocumented immigrants across the country, baptizing many of
them without asking about their status. It also allows them to go to the churchs
temples and on missions. Plus there is that potential loss of tithing money!It all seems contridictory to me and that the stance the Church claims
is not what the Church's real agenda. They seem to be saying....it's alright for
members to break immigration law! WOW!
I hope everyone understands that NOT all non-US Citizens living and working in
the USA want to become Citizens of this country - I would think that most don't
care about "becoming a US Citizen". They come to "make
money" and "have opportunity at a better life". So the LDS
Church's statement addresses the "path to citizenship" as not the
prime purpose for immigration reform. It's not amnesty to become citizens. The
purpose is to get a VISA system that works so proper documentation with
"limited rights" to non-citizens. The key is for EMPLOYERS to only
hire "legal workers" - those with legal papers that have the rights to
"normal wages" and not under the table payments that hurts US Citizens
ability to compete for the same work available. The LDS Statement also
redoubles its stance that this is a FEDERAL issue that needs to be addressed and
the BORDERS should be secure. That is the only way to attempt to create a STABLE
environment that can be "controlled" and monitored and safe for
everyone. There should be Quotas for non-citizen workers - need a viable
system that is enforceable and acceptable.
@positiverealist, you cannot be serious. The government is not aggressive in
deporting those who are unlawfully present. Millions are identified and
released back on the street. Just ask the SLC police chief.
Amen to this great clarification! After all the land belong to them if one
believes Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, and the speaker in this quote, who is
Jesus Christ himself: "But if they (the Gentiles coming to the Americas)
will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will
establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be
numbered among this the remnant of Jacob (a part of the indigenous peoples of
the Americas), unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance." (3
I understand being an illegal alien is a direct violation of United Nations
Article 23 Human Rights of American citizens employment (or unemployment). Also
appears the U.S. Fed violated U.S. Constitution 9th amendment rights of American
citizens by seizing about 7 million jobs from American citizens. And none of
these require payment for illegal use of the land, the USA?
I love the moderation and compassion of this statement. But it is clear not all
LDS do. I suppose there is a reason the church does not want to get involved in
political issues. Offend the far right members with this just like the far left
were offended with Prop 8 involvement. And yet the church keeps stepping its
toes into the political waters.I do think that when the church
chooses to comment on political issues like this it is purely administrative
rather than any kind of doctrinal action. Members should not feel guilty if
their political beliefs differ. This is not a "revelation" that needs
to be framed in the LDS living room.
One additional note: I live in a community that is at least 30% hispanic, many
of who are probably here illegally.I welcome them! They bring with
them a rich cultural heritage that includes a powerful love of and devotion to
family.My hispanic neighbors are religious, hardworking, good
people. They pay their fair share of taxes (when they buy gas, pay rent, have
income taxes withheld, buy groceries or cars...) nothing is coming to them for
free. They don't use social services at any higher rate than do
"citizens." To claim otherwise is to underestimate the vast power of
our government in its ability to collect taxes.How are hispanic
gangs today any different than the 1860's Irish gangs in New York or Boston, or
the 1880's Asian gangs of San Francisco? Were those gangs "caused" by
illegal immigration? Rather, perhaps gangs are one of the natural byproducts of
poverty and ignorance. (Again, bless the Church in its Perpetual Education
work.)The point is, the Brethren GET IT. This is a humanitarian
issue that is vastly more complex than just "hunt 'em down, jail 'em and
shippin' 'em back south cuz theyze took mah job"
I support this statement by the LDS Church about the need for a comprehensive
solution contemplated by a series of bills passed by the Utah legislature
including HB 116 as opposed to an enforcement only solution being pursued by
Arizona and now even more so by Alabama. As a state delegate to the Republican
convention, I will be voting against any resolution to repeal HB 116. There may
be areas that HB 116 could be improved since it does not take effect for two
years but it is clearly on the right track. I thank the Utah legislature and
Governor for the courage to tackle these difficult issues in the face of the
federal government (including our federal delegation) failing to even attempt to
address the issue.
I live and work all around illegal aliens.I sometimes wonder
how/where the LDS church has gotten the perception they have of illegal
immigrants. Is it the Sutherland institute, the Chamber of commerce, or other
advocates of sub-par labor rates?When Utah state government talks
about having their own "guest worker" program what makes anyone think
the illegal will even WANT to sign up for it?They don't "sign
up" for much of anything unless it gets them free stuff.Most illegal
immigrants I know carry 3-4 sets of "I.D.", then if they get a
misdemeanor citation, or the I.D. is "discovered" some other way, they
just switch to a new one.Also, who in state government is going to be
enforcing the new "state worker" visas, and WHAT HAPPENS to those who
choose NOT to "sign up".Think things through!The
ONLY approach that makes sense and will work is ENFORCEMENT.Most
illegal aliens are VERY hard workers, and I DO have compassion for their plight
but Utahns simply cannot afford to continue to bear the financial burden they
put on the LEGAL citizens of Utah.
Should we now consider HB116 to be the 139th section of the Doctrine and
Covenants or is there still room to debate its merits? Does the church's plea
to its members to avoid being judgmental extend to those who look narrowly upon
fellow saints who have adopted an immigration position contrary to their own?
Amen to this statement by the Church. However, there are enormous benefits to
the cheap labor lobby to influence the government to not protect the border. We
citizens of the USA need to insist even harder that the federal government
protect our border.Also, I do NOT want to hear from Church members
with statements that over-generalize this Church statement, applying their own
personal agendas and personal interpretations of this statement.
Americans are desperate for work, especially teenagers. Years ago teenagers
would work in the fields and paid for their schooling this way. Why can't we
try and see if it would work? If not then use immigrant labor. We need to
rebuild our workforce with Americans.
"The First Presidency has for many years taught that undocumented status
should not by itself prevent an otherwise worthy Church member from entering the
temple or being ordained to the priesthood. Bishops are in the best position to
make appropriate judgments as to church privileges."I'm
guessing that stealing identity would preclude one from temple or priesthood
service. I hope Bishops ask that question.
The problem, being that the real solution to the illegal emigration is blocked
by the left. An ID card system that contains a photo and finger prints along
with other biometerics seems to rankel the left each time it is brought up. With
such an ID card system we could track them where ever they are,if you are law
biding then you would not have a problem with this.
Elder Holland recently gave a talk in the Middle East. The Church's website has
his remarks under the title," Members in Middle East Reminded to Obey,
Honor, and Sustain Law."I wish that applied here.
Adam said "Can I also go to Heaven illegally and then
"square up" with God once I get there so I can stay?"Not exactly; we should be repenting along the way. But make no mistake: nobody
earns their way into heaven. It is only through the grace of Christ. And if
Christ has the compassion to grant those of us who strive to live the gospel
eternal life despite our shortcomings, shouldn't we have compassion on those
children of God who want to live here, but had no control over where they were
I would consider myself conservative and a Tea Partier, BUT I was also born and
raised in Southern Arizona where I grew up with illegals. They were never a
problem! I have said from the beginning of this issue that someone is trying to
start a race war. To me it is clear and I appreciate the Church reminding us
that these are our brothers and sisters we are treating this way! If
you want this "problem" taken care of why not start with OUR
Immigration Dept. Like start over! Dealing with them is like stepping into the
very pit of hell!! For years I have said I do not know why anyone would go
through what they put you through to get into this country!! Are any of you
familiar with that abominable institution?!! If not you need to learn what you
are asking these people to subject themselves to in order to be in this country.
I for one never want to have to deal with them again after adopting outside the
US!!! Yes, they even force tiny babies to go through this process! As an
American I am embarrassed by our INS!
The Church has ignored compassion towards our citizens and those of other
countries that try to come here legally. They have forgotten our legal workers
have lost jobs to those who break our laws, and American workers have had their
ability to feed their family weakened. Something is wrong here.
How can you get a temple recommend when you aren't adhering to the law of the
land? This is a major problem for me. I am not perfect but, how can members
who break the law of our land be allowed to enjoy full fellowship?Since when is it ok to pick and choose which of our basic beliefs we will
Dave D:Well, let us use your logic. If people have no control over
where they were born, should we permit those born in abusive situations to break
laws without consequence? I think not. Everyone must choose to act
for themselves, no matter in what circumstances they are. I do not judge
illegals. I really do not. I feel for them, just as I feel for the millions
waiting to come to this country legally but cannot because, in part, of those
who cut in line by entering this nation illegally. I believe we do not need to
punish illegals, deprive them of dignity, or inflict any other pain. I want only
that they return them to their homelands. My dad is a legal immigrant who played
by the rules. Why should his efforts be ignored?Illegals are in
captivity here; they have limited educational opportunities and generally are
subjected to all sorts of abuses ranging from their "guides" who help
them cross the borders to those who give them low wages simply because they can
and the illegal cannot turn offenders over to proper authorities. I want these
illegals to go home and return legally.
The timing of this official statement is interesting. I think this will
ultimately completely eliminate any chance that Romney had to get elected.
To Bompar-I'm sure that when you (and I) get before God's judgment
bar, we'll be hoping that "compassion supersedes the law." If that's
the case on the other side, then perhaps it's time we started practicing it in
earnest in the here and now. To blj123,How right you are!
However, Im not sure the condition of ones heart can be meaningfully applied to
immigration; immigration compliance may be more in the legal arena, perhaps more
akin to ones willingness to accept baptism. Which leads to another
situationthere may be room for everybody in heaven; Utah, not so much.
Has the LDS church been threatened by the 13 countries that openly condemned
Utah's laws? It was my first thought. With 36% of legal green cards
going to one ethnic group that makes up less than 7% of the worlds population,
they are already getting preferential treatment. With 80% of those breaking our
immigration laws comprised of one ethnic group, they would be affected by
enforcement more. It's nonsense to stop enforcing laws because one group breaks
them more than others. The problem is not with our laws, but with the group that
Any judge or legislature who refuses to enforce the law has to be removed from
To those trying to paint the Church as hypocritical here, you should be aware
that "honoring, sustaining and obeying the law" has ALWAYS come second
to honoring, sustaining and obeying God's law.Are you even aware who
the Article of Faith which teaches that came from? Joseph Smith. And what did
Joseph Smith practice? Polygamy, which was in direct violation of civil law.Anyone who thinks that the Church is trying to have it both ways here is
just revealing themselves to be almost completely ignorant of what the history
of the Church actually entails.The bottom line is that the Church is
not, and should not be, in the business of enforcing immigration policy. They
are "in the business" of saving souls, and that should not be, and is
not, dependent on the legal status of the soul in question.Besides,
let's not mince words here: this isn't about political stance or some
self-righteous philosophy of obeying the law. It's about the discomfort and
mistrust people feel around brown people, with a different culture, who speak a
The Federal Governments failure to secure the borders has resulted in the
problems existing in California and other border states, which is now spreading
enough to become a problem in other states. The problem will continue until the
Federal Government secures the Border and locates the ones who do not have a
legal status in this country. A method should be provided for those without
legal status to be guests for a period of time similar to some countries Visa
restrictions. They should have to obtain a legal guest worker status renewable
for periods of time if they are gainfully employed, crime free, and paying their
fair share of taxes. Right now the problem is a mess created by failure of the
Federal Government to protect and follow the Constitution.
"The church supports an approach where undocumented immigrants are allowed
to square themselves with the law"Lets see, we have HB 469, the
sponsorship bill, one of the 4 bills that was signed, that could do that. We
don't need HB 116 for that.Someone here illegally could find a
sponsor, go home and come back with permission.To be considered for
approval as a resident immigrant for purposes ofthe program, a foreign
national shall: at the time of filing theapplication be living outside of
the United StatesHB 469 only allows the the person or family
sponsoring, to sponsor 2 people or a family.If we are going to have
a line for people to come to this country, you cant reward those who bypass the
line. They need to be sent to the back of the line. That doesnt mean you should
stop treating them like people.
This is like asking some people to pay 30% tithing and having some pay nothing.
I work in construction and my wages have been suppressed by the illegals, while
other people in and out of construction benefit by hiring the illegals, paying
them nothing and waiting for the rest of us to pick up the tab for their free
health care etc. etc. This is wrong. I guess ill inform my bishop that i have
allready given at the office.
Thank you Utah Catholic for your show of compassion. Altho I had been told many
times back in the 50's and 60's that the Roman Catholic Church was the Church of
the Devil, it is refreshing to read that the LDS Church leadership often works
side by side with the Roman Catholic Church to help the poor and the needy in
Utah and elsewhere. ...I have enjoyed the hospitality of the Catholic
Church more than once in the beautiful Cathedral of the Madeleine and the Helena
Compassion is a two way street. Where is the compassion for those who jobs were
stolen, for those who ID's were stolen for those waiting in other countries to
come here legally? Allowing people to stay here that break the law
seems racist to me, since it would affect one ethnic group the most. You teach by example. Allowing those who commit the crime to continue
committing it, does not set the proper example.
Translation, nothing has changed.I respect where they are coming
from but this does not solve the problem. The 20,000 foot view is that this
provides an incentive to sneak your way here and get squared away second. It is
incentive to break the law, pure and simple. This is our current system with an
emphasis on creating a greater incentive.I have come around to the
idea of a working Bracero Work Visa with no abbreviated process for citizenship.
Provide this to current workers, make it easy to obtain and retain, and cross
the border. Most illegal immigrants want to remain citizens of their homeland
but come here for work.The 50,000 foot view is the inequity caused
by numerous laws. This is pure economics but the minimum wage creates massive
problems that so many try and get around. Welfare benefits the same. Free
education and health care. Ultimately what we are seeing is groups of people
fighting over the spoils of a redistributive wealth system. Remove those from
the equation and watch this problem disappear. People that want to come here
can, no one is playing Karl Marx.I know, no chance of it ever
This is a very reasonable approach. Jesus said love everyone treat them kindly
Joel Wisch You are incorrect. Mass expulsion has not only happened with the LDS
it has happened with native Americans and Japanese Americans. The church is
absolutely correct. A mass deportation would involve mostly hispanics. One
other thought. How do we determine citizenship. Make people carry papers with
them like was done in Eastern Europe. I don't want my government demanding
people prove citizenship based on ethnicity. That is unconstitutional.
@EJM | 11:22 a.m. June 10, 2011 "As for this Utah Catholic a
big "Thank you" to the LDS Church for this."EJM, are
you not aware, as a Utah Catholic, that the Most Reverend Bishop Wester now
takes a position in opposition to HB116 precisely because it would convert
Utah's illegals into a non-citizen sub-class?
Thank you LDS Church for another reasonable, sane statement aimed at (I believe)
reactionary state legislators. Those who frame the immigration debate with
simple-minded analogies to illegal burglaries, illegal trespassing, or other
illegal activities need to broaden their thinking of a very complicated issue
(that should be resolved solely by the feds).Descendant of 1854
immigrants from Wales and fugitives of Missouri Governor Boggs extermination
It would be wise to assure the situation does not happen again. With 75-80% of
the people here illegally from one ethnic group, that has to be addressed. Tell their leaders that they must come here legally, and that they must
return home and come back legally under the law.
Clark Kent, Joggle, and others who have mentioned tithing as the possible
impetus here.I find it hard to take such assertions seriously.Perhaps the Hispanic population in Utah is different, but in the several
states where I have interacted with them, they have not typically made the type
of wages that would even begin to make money a factor. Yes, some folks are
successful and more will be as time passes. But if this were about money the
church would not be moving this way.In fact, if money was an issue
at all, I doubt the church would be moving as aggressively as it has been to
establish wards and branches in the third world. Doing so simply makes no
economic sense - these areas will be in negative cash flow for decades to
come.Doing these things makes sense only if you believe that all are
God's children and deserving of the gospel. And that is the real reason behind
How much can one love his neighbor when his neighbor is in his home uninvited,
and at great expense?The US is a home writ large. U.S. citizens are
its only owners. A primary right of home-ownership is determining who gets in,
and who must leave. Those who aren't owners of this home -- such as legal
resident aliens, who are guests, and illegal aliens, who are invaders -- have no
rights, not even to an explanation for why they most leave.These are
the rights literal homeowners take for granted with regard to their literal
homes, and it moves me to ask border-jumper-sympathizers: why do you set moral
standards for your country that you'd never follow in your household?
Its nice and idealistic to hope that the federal government will enforce our
laws. The reality is that they have not, do not and seem to have no intention
to change.Since that is the reality, individual states have taken it
upon themselves to protect their citizens from all the problems created by
hundreds of thousands of illegal people moving into their communities.If Utah wants to be the state that welcomes illegals while other states pass
laws that discourage them from coming, we will soon double and triple our
illegal population. Over time, Utah will no longer be Utah. Our kids and grand
kids will live in a different Utah than the one we know. Economics 101 -
The LDS Church has made another great statement on an important issue.
"The US government should secure its borders and sharply reduce or
eliminate the flow of undocumented immigrants. Unchecked and unregulated, such
a flow may destabilize society and ultimatley become unsustainable." Well,
does anybody think that the power driven politicians are going to do anything to
curb the flow of illegals into this country? No Way! Also, I think its really
part of the plan with this administration. Look at the people and groups who
have influenced our dear leader and tell me they don't mean to
"fundamentally transform" this country by any means possible.
Johnathon S, great point with one glaring flaw ... a country and a home are
different. Individual property rights are not the same as immigration rights
and laws. In fact, they aren't similar.
Adam, at the beginning of these comments, said: "Can I also go
to Heaven illegally and then "square up" with God once I get there so
I can stay?"Good question -- especially since those who say
"that's what the Atonement is all about" are doctrinally wrong."And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be
merry; nevertheless, fear God he will justify in committing a little sin; yea,
lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy
neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we
die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes,
and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God."Yea, and
there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, FALSE AND VAIN AND
FOOLISH DOCTRINES, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep
to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the
dark."The Book of Mormon2 Nephi 28:8-9 upper caps
What to do about the 12 million here already....Well, what do you do when
you find someone in the temple without a recommend? Or camped out in the
parking lot of any chapel?You remove them. To do less will only encourage
others. And the pressure to come here is enormous.
Ezra Taft Benson gave an important talk on 14 fundamentals of following the
prophet. If you're LDS and putting the party before the prophet, please read it.
Remember also that laws sometimes conflict, as they do here, and the higher law
is justice and mercy, not civil law and living prophets trump dead ones. Note
also that the Mormon pioneers--possibly the ancestors of some who oppose this
statement--were illegal immigrants. You might be the descendent of an illegal
immigrant yourself. Utah was owned by Mexico and we didn't get a land grant.
Also note there is no legal path for the people who most need to be here.
Research that for yourself. You must have family, wealth, or a high degree in a
rare field. Also, for those thinking it was a membership or tithing issue: The
Church collects tithings from Mormons of all nations and they can be converted
in Mexico as well as here. We're a world-wide church, with more than half of
membership outside the U.S.
I agree that we're all children of God. I also agree that we are to obey the
"laws of the land". It looks to me like the church teaches that only
those that are born & raised in the USA are obligated to obey those laws.
That if you're here illegally, you are forgiven, you can live a life of lies
& secret combinations, and, this absolutely makes me angry: You can have a
temple recommend, even though you're being unfair to your fellow man!!!! What is
with this double standard????
1) The Federal government isn't going to provide an adequate solution to this
issue, now or ever.2) A touchy subject, no doubt . . . but with
25-50,000,000 Americans either unemployed or underemployed, how will we pay for
all the free goodies demanded by the invaders? Will the churches chip in?
Nope.3) We need to get serious about this, and we need to do it soon.
We're in trouble already, although many are very adept at putting their heads
deep in the sand.4) Those who pay should have a say. How about it
taxpayers? Are YOU going to have a voice in this, or will it always be those
who supposedly "represent" you?5) If you want to see what the
effect of mass uncontrolled invasion does to an area, look at California. Or,
compare West Valley to what it was twenty years ago. Go ahead . . . get an
honest look at the problem. We won't be able to simply wish this one away with
more brotherly love.
Those here illegally already have a compassionate way to continue working here.
They can go home and come back legally. Problem is solved, and we are
compassionate to all concerned. Allowing people to stay after
breaking the law is amnesty. It is compassionate to no one, as it teaches those
here illegally that breaking the law is tolerated. It is not compassionate to
those citizens that have had to pay taxes to support their dishonest behavior.
It is not compassionate to business that plays by the rules. There is nothing
compassionate about amnesty. The Supreme court has ruled that it's
illegal to hire them. Where is the church statement condemning the lack of
compassion in our business community?
"...if you are not caught or if you overstay a visa it is only civil more
like a speeding ticket." positiverealist | 11:41 (page 1)WRONG
- Coming into the U.S. without proper clearance and documentation (read that
permission) is a violation of the U.S. CRIMINAL CODE: TITLE 8 > CHAPTER 12
> SUBCHAPTER II > Part VIII > § 1325 Improper entry by alien Civil Offense: Caught at the border while trying to enter the U.S.
illegallyMisdemeanor: Being in the U.S. illegally Most
traffic tickets issued for traffic offenses are "infractions" --
including mechanical violations and most non-dangerous moving violations. It
becomes a misdemeanor or felony if it causes injury to a person or destruction
of property.A misdemeanor is a criminal charge - a lessor offense
than a felony, but they are not without penalties. According to FBI
statistics:1) 99% of long term "over-stayers" (enter on a visa
and stay 3 or more months past their date to depart the country) never intended
to leave on time. 2) 99% of illegal aliens commit their first felony
within 30 days of entering the country.
I am sure some LDS members will still try to find a way to enforce their
prejudice despite these church leadership statements. How can anyone still
defend their hatred after the church has just clearly pointed out that there is
a lot of hate and not love when it comes to immigration.
The LDS were at war with Mexico when the pioneers settled here. The analogy does
not work unless we admit this is war. We ended up winning the land, then paying
for it. I think some still believe that illegal immigration is a
victimless crime. It's not. The higher law applies to everyone.
Compassion does not lie with only one side of the issue. The LDS church is
global, and this preferential treatment is being noticed by people around the
world. I do not believe that any higher power would condone such preferential
treatment that ignores so many of his laws. Their statement is so full of wiggle
words, how can anyone make sense of it? If laws are to be enforced,
then deportation and coming back legally is the only option under the law. If
compassion is mandatory, then business must comply with the laws of the land.
Amnesty and creation of a second class of people surely is not their intent?
HB 116 is scaring me. I want to know who is behind it. I don't believe it
originated in Utah anymore.
The problem that never seems to get enough attention is the reason for illegal
immigration. Generally speaking, poor economic conditions in counties result in
able-bodied workers leaving to find decent paying jobs (by their standard) in
another country. In some cases, so they can send money back to their families.
This happens all over the world. Political turmoil and war may contribute to
that poor economy. Regardless, most immigrants I've met here from around the
world love their native countries. Most would stay in, or return to, their
countries if it were possible. Although they are grateful for the opportunities
the U.S. provides them and their families, however meager, they would rather be
in their countries. Why don't we talk more about fixing that problem and helping
people return and take care of their families back home?
Anyone who recommends "expulsion" of 12 million human beings is not
concerned with our economy, our image in the world, with fixing our broken
immigration system, the logistical impossibility of the project, or the
political ramifications of targeting a bloc of immigrants whose grandchildren
will be the majority in America at mid-century. Those folks have another agenda,
and it's not punishing law breakers. We have laws, police, & a judicial
system for that. It's fair to ask them - minus the above reasons - just what
that agenda is.
"The history of mass expulsion or mistreatment of individuals or families
is cause for concern especially where race, culture or religion are
involved."Race has nothing to do with it. It's an illegal act,
no matter who does it. So is hiring those here illegally. You can make your own
laws about membership and temple access, but we have to abide by the laws of the
@Terrie - there **IS** a "legal path for the people who most need to be
here." - those that "just want to work." You should
"research that for yourself" - but, let me help you:Workers can come to the U.S. legally by using the **EXISTING** federal Guest
Worker program with categories for different work types:- Permanent
Labor Certification: A certification issued by the Department of Labor (DOL)
allows an employer to hire a foreign worker to work permanently in the United
States.- H-2A Temporary Labor Certification (Seasonal Agricultural):
Program for agricultural employers who anticipate a shortage of domestic workers
to bring nonimmigrant foreign workers to the U.S. to perform agricultural labor
or services of a temporary or seasonal nature. - H-2B Temporary
Labor Certification (Non-agricultural): Program permits employers to hire
foreign workers to come temporarily to the U.S. and perform temporary
nonagricultural services or labor on a one-time, seasonal, peakload or
oh boy...first of all, what do you expect the church to say here? The church is
responsible for providing leadership for your spiritual well being, First and
foremost. I think the church honestly worries that without thoughtfull
solutions, this could turn out to be non-christ like.But folks, in
there is the recognition of the "choice land" thought process, and
that we cannot allow for destabilization. Many, many, many of you blew right
past that concept.What lies in the ballance here is the judgement of
when destabilization occurs, and what to do about it. The church is not saying
wait for that to happen, then do something.Alas, there are tragic
consequences for the continued failure of the Fed. to do its job. For that I am
sorry...but resolute in implementing what must be done. WHile we determine what
constitutes destabilization, and press the Fed into reform, enforcement must
lead the way.This is the definition of making the tough
decisions...thank you church leaders for your leadership on the spiritual side,
however I'll support the measures necessary regardless of the position of the
RE: The StumpedThe largest group here illegally is from Mexico. Mexico has
the 14th best economy in the world. It's greed that makes people ignore the laws
and come here illegally for the work. Those that come here legally usually are
hoping to be citizens. When 12-20 million people come here illegally
and break our laws, I can't help but exercise my free agency and be judgmental.
I have to wonder why those breaking the immigration laws and the
businesses hiring them are not being asked to be compassionate also?
To praxis - You wrote: "According to FBI statistics:1)
99% of long term "over-stayers" (enter on a visa and stay 3 or more
months past their date to depart the country) never intended to leave on
time.2) 99% of illegal aliens commit their first felony within 30 days of
entering the country."I could not find these statistics
anywhere other than in a random blog. It appears you copied the statement
verbatim and didn't give credit to the person posting it. Unless that was you
posting it originally, that is plagiarism.What's worse than
committing plagiarism is plagiarizing unsupported data. I could find no such
reference on the FBI's website. What's more is how can either of those stats
even be measured? In order to do so, one must 1) have questioned all 100% of
the undocumented workers in the US, and 2) believe they are telling the truth
(w/ respect to #1) and, 3) know the exact date when an undocumented worker enter
the US. If you can't argue the issue on its merits, please just opt
out. Don't perpetrate false information.
So, the Church which believes in obeying the law now says that enforcing Utah
state law is an unacceptable way of dealing with the immigration problem. Make
up your mind. You follow the rule of law or you don't. This looks to me like the
exact same thing that the power elite tries all over the world. The mundanes
must follow the rules and pay the taxes but the rich and the powerful do not.
They create their own rules. Must be nice.I'd really love to follow
this one back a little bit and see who benefits from the latest Mormon double
speak. Cui Bono, Elders? Cui Bono?
Ummmm,Im confused. . . if illegal aliens are worthy to enter the temple and have
church callings, then anything I do that is less serious than identity theft (a
felony) should still allow me to enter the temple too. Right??? I think I'm
going to like this "new standard", yahoo!!!!!
The article of faith does not distinguish between civil and criminal law. So the
question now becomes at what point is it ok to break the law? Any expulsion for
illegal presence is a direct result of breaking that law. It is not arbitrary.
As citizens of this state, we are allowed to create the government we wish to
within reason and the constitution, and if the federal government won't do
something it is supposed to, I see nothing wrong with our legislators taking the
initiative with regard to our state.Leaving it to the feds to handle
it is a total cop out since the feds clearly aren't handling it. The church has
already made us defenseless in our chapels by forbidding guns, and now it wants
to make us roll over for illegal immigrants.If compliance with the
law is now optional for temple attendance, how optional is compliance with the
other standards the church has? Perhaps the bishops should maybe not judge on
the basis of belief, abusive family relationships, sexual misconduct, etc. too?
I hope the church reconsiders and retracts its statement.
This is very disappointing, disgusting and outrageous. If you are an unemployed
Utahn, the victim of identity theft ,or any other of the many crimes committed
by illegal aliens your own church just went totally against its own principles
(12th article of faith) and threw you under the bus so they can pander to
lawbreaking citizens of Mexico who are here looting the state and national
treasuries. If you can't get a temple recommend because you are behind on child
support or because you have broken some other law the church just threw you
under the bus as well. This is wrong on every level and we all must stand up and
let the church know that we are no longer going to close our eyes and shut up
when they are clearly in the wrong and on this issue they are WRONG! Surveys
show that the majority of Utahns and church members want the law enforced, time
to let the church and the state know how we feel in a much louder voice
obviously. Illegal immigration is destroying the state and nation and we need to
let them all know it.
Confusing. We must follow the law, however.....Amnesty brings more
law breaking. When we discipline, we do so to teach adherence to the law, we do
not reward the wrong behavior. Has anyone given any thought to the
problems a second class of citizens could bring? Their abuse by business would
be intolerable to a civilized society. We already have a visa
system. Let them go home and come back legally, it will solve many problems and
prevent future ones.
To Jay Tee: West Valley City could now be re-named North Juarez. It is
disgusting to hear people jabbering in a foreign tongue in the grocery stores,
at the bank, and even in the Granger Library WITH a librarian. I would more
fully welcome the Spanish speaking immigrants IF they would speak English.
So, since no employer in the U.S. may lawfully employ someone here illegally,
are we supposed to love all these illegals so much that we support them? Offer
them a place to stay in our homes? Is the LDS church going to employ them? I'd
really like to know how the church proposes that these people support themselves
in the U.S. when they are here illegally and may not lawfully be employed?
Another thing, you won't accept tithing from gambling, but will you accept
tithing from illegals, knowing that any income they have received they have
received unlawfully in this country?
What about a amendment for E-Verify that is an Internet-based, free program run
by the United States government that compares information from an employee's
Employment Eligibility Verification, on all Church's, in these Sanctuary States
for illegal's they hide then hire them?.Illegal Immigration:
Church Issues New StatementThe Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints today issued the following official statement on immigration:Around the world, debate on the immigration question has become intense. That
is especially so in the United States. Most Americans agree that the federal
government of the United States should secure its borders and sharply reduce or
eliminate the flow of undocumented immigrants. Unchecked and unregulated, such a
flow may destabilize society and ultimately become unsustainable. How about it Sen Hatch and the boyz in the RINO hood?.
People who broke the law to get in by definition are criminals. The church
should be loving to all so I agree with that. But the good citizens who were
born here or are citizens by legal process need work also to live. Illegals
working here are taking a job from an American citizen who needs it to feed his
family. Why is it okay for a good illegal to take a job that a good American
citizen needs? And why is it okay that the American citizen who has done no
wrong is punished like this? How is that fair and just? Answer, it is not. Why
is it good to let the innocent law abiding American born here by God's will be
left to starve because another performs a criminal act to get here to take the
American citizens sustenance. Mormon Church you can't have your cake and eat it
too. The illegals need to go home and we need to help them fix the evil in their
country that drove them out. That would really be Gods work.
In order to be eligible for a temple recommend, I had to answer the question,
"Are you honest in all your dealings?" From my perspective, entering
another country illegally, using a stolen identity, and/or not "being
subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and
sustaining the law" would make the answer to that question a resounding,
"No."I admit that I do not understand the Church's
response to the current immigration problems facing our nation. And boy, they
are serious problems.
Adam asked, "Can I also go to Heaven illegally and then "square
up" with God once I get there so I can stay?"Yes, its
called grace and mercy. Ever heard of them?
"Immigration issues need to be resolved at the federal government
level."Let's not forget that the Supreme court has given states
the power to pull business licenses. The Federal "issue" no longer
applies exclusively. It's our problem, and we are not handling it
correctly by going against the laws of the land, or wishes of the majority of
the people. The local Catholic church has withdrawn support for HB
116. They do not want any part of creating a sub class of people here. I hope
the rest of the state comes to this conclusion, and we resolve the problem, and
do not create more trouble down the road, like we did with the 1986 amnesty.
Sometimes we have to be strict, to teach the future generations right from
Indeed a multi-faceted issue with millions of anchor children and grandchildren
now born and raised within the USA since the previous generations crossed the
border illegally.Also for consideration, the hundreds of
Church-owned properties and a dozen temples within Mexico, along with hundreds
of American-born LDS missionaries serving throughout that country. An offshore
investment that has significant implications.Does this statement
lead to an increased sanctuary status for Utah, and with it a re-doubled
migration of Latinos from other states seeking a more compassionate domicile.The forthcoming repercussions may soon reveal themselves.
To be honest the worker's visa, "works" for those with money to go to
the States, how can you ask someone who's trying to get food for their families
and are looking for a better future, like education, to have the money for
paperwork.Most if not all of them are hard workers, the others coming with
drug, it's easy....stop buying from them!We need each other, we can help
each other, that's the point.And the Immigration hate goes to the ones
from the south border, not the "white" ones from the north or Europe,
it's all based on race. I don't buy your "illegal" issue
For so long the Utah Republican party has believed that they are the only true
and living political party on the earth. I think this church statement shows
just how far the Republicans have drifted from what they once represented. The
Republicans are now a bunch of angry and judgmental partisans that do not care
about individuals. I hope they see their party's position, at least in Utah, is
in conflict with the Lord's church.
@Uintahiker: Don't forget, there were also German and Italian internment camps
during WWII. Amazing how many people forget this little tidbit.
What I read is a double message being sent by the church. They on one hand say
that it is wrong to illegally enter a country or stay to long. On the other hand
they are saying if you do it there will be no consequence and in fact we want
you to stay.Scripture teaches that mercy cannot to justice yet this is what we
are asked to swallow.They say we should not mistreat one race or group of
people but should we not also reward one race or group of people over other
sometimes more deserving races and groups?This statement was released on
the eave of our state republican deligates voting on repeal of hb116. The church
is blatently trying to influence the vote and is being pretty shady in doing so.
I use to vote Democratic, voted for Obama. I will not vote for anyone who
supports amnesty or open borders. This mass invasion of 12-20 million people and
the dishonesty in our government and business community is probably the most
serious problem this country has faced since WWII. You can feel the
dishonesty and moral corruption in this debate.
You can't ignore the lack of compassion from the illegal community and business
the past twenty years, and then try to throw it back on those who were hurt by
their actions. I don't see the love thy neighbor in this discussion,
I see an attempt to stop the repeal of HB116.
There aren't many well-thought, kind, and reasonable comments on here regarding
a specific theme found commonly in these comments.Baptism &
Temple Recommends.First, to anyone questioning the LDS Church's
moral integrity because of this, I would offer a word of caution. Judge not lest
ye be judged. I'm not pretending to be biblical or more righteous, simply saying
that there is a lot of truth to that statement and it applies to anyone offering
criticism of anyone else. If we absolutely must judge a person or group, we
ought to be very considerate of context, have good and honest intentions, and
have a good understanding of what we are judging. In my experience, those who
criticize the LDS church do not understand the LDS belief system well enough to
make valid arguments, including ex-members.My suggestion to
everyone. Consider: should an illegal immigrant be prevented from attending
church service also? At what point does it become absurd?Also, can
someone with Kantian morals use their views to criticize a virtue ethicist? No.
Can people use their own moral rules to judge the LDS church? No.My
comments will continue...
Why criticize a Muslim for not following the word of wisedom? There is no logic
in that.People might argue'saying the LDS church is hypocritical
doesn't compare as the LDS church believes in following the law of the land'But that is exactly what I am addressing. This claim is ignorant of the
LDS belief system on several accounts.Although we have absolute
right and absolute wrong (no grey area, etc) we also believe in some things that
work on a different scale (such as virtue ethics does, etc). An example, maybe
someone isn't doing something wrong but they should still try to do something
better than what they are doing.No one on Earth has a temple
reccomend and is perfect.Also, we believe in following God's prophet
who can reveal higher laws. If God says follow the law, then we do. But God has
also commanded that which cannot accomdate the law... such as defending oneself
even if it is illegal. Extermination orders while legal to man are not to God.
Should Joseph have accepted the bullet because of the law? Our moral
system is different. Any criticism should be conscious of that.
Once again, the LDS Church creates serious problems when they defy their own
scriptures. Instead of following D7C 134:9, they choose to mingle religious
influence with civil law on this illegal immigration issue, and they will
continue to cause problems by so doing.
Why is this board 150 comments long? The Prophet has spoken and the discussion
is over, right?
RE: RichardBI agree greed is the root to the problem. However, 47%
of Mexico is below the poverty line (asset based amount), according to the CIA
World Fact Book. Having lived there, I saw what that looked like. Government
corruption, especially at the local level, creates barriers to economic growth.
Drug wars threaten the stability of life for others. Greed is most certainly
involved, but not for the majority of the illegals coming here. Two wrongs don't
make a right, but I don't see U.S. Citizens sneaking across the Rio Grande
trying to find jobs in avocado fields, car factories, etc. Could you please to
explain more clearly how illegal immigrants from Mexico working minimum wage
jobs in the U.S. are greedy?
I'm confused why some posters thinks this squares with the Dems. The Church said
generally stay home unless you can come legally. Dems have seriously
misconstrued that enforcing the law is discrimination...The church wants the
laws enforced and it's another wake up call to the Fed gov. (democrat in office
who isn't listening), to enforce the law. AZ is saying the same thing, "If
you don't do something we will." The dem leadership in this
country needs to wake up and do something. The church stated, 'Most Americans
agree the Federal government needs to ...secure it's borders and sharply reduce
the flow of undocumented workers."That what Reps have been
saying ALL THE TIME!!!!
This was an incredibly timely and needed communication. As an active voting GOP
delegate in the County and State conventions, I've been particularly dismayed at
some of the rhetoric surrounding the questions and challenges of immigration.
This was a very well-worded, thoughtful dose of "perspective" in my
opinion. I hope that it helps those on all sides of the issue -- and LDS or
not, quite frankly -- to at least re-consider some of the more angry, sketchy,
and scapegoating arguments out there.
It's not an easy situation. The best of many possible, mostly difficult
possibilities is to deal with reality and charity. The best idea I have heard in
many years is the one proposed by Senator McCain and Pres. George W. Bush some
years ago 1) secure borders, 2) temporary workers program, 3) pathway to
citizenship. When proposed by McCain and Bush, the Republican base went bonkers.
Methinks it was not about all the illegal Norwegians, or even Canadians here. I
think illegals deserve basic human rights. And we need to be sure we are not
singling out one class of people, millions of whom are legal citizens of the
United States. In fact, the ancestors of many were here before any Anglos and
were given citizenship by the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo 1848. If we want new
immigrants to be more like "us" maybe we should be a little more
welcoming. Besides, if our economy is going to pick up, don't we need new
markets, new people, growth? I hope that people will sit back and think about
this just a little. We may have to get rid of some of our own assumptions and
"Are you honest in all your dealings?" "We believe
in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying,
honoring, and sustaining the law."To baptise, give the
priesthood and temple recommends to individuals who have broken the law is in
direct contradiction to these familiar LDS tenets. If I illegally move to
England to work will the Church leaders give me a temple recommend? I think
not. Many, many immigrants are not here because of deprivation in their own
countries but because they want cell phones and SUV's. I am a proponent of
legal immigration, and helping those who must flee their homelands. We are a
generous people which is good. But neither should we be taken advantage of
because that leaves fewer resources for those who are in desperate need. Where my tax dollars are involved I have a right to be judgemental. I
want those dollars used wisely. Just because someone shows up on this side of
the border does not mean they have a right to stay here. This
policy is very misguided.
To assume that everyone, who enters the country illegally, does so out of
desperation is to be deceived. If a person has entered the country without
documentation then they have broken the law. How can this be overlooked by
church and government leadership?A comparison can be drawn between
the need to immigrate and the need for an abortion. Of the millions of
abortions that are performed very few are done because of rape, incest or to
save the life of the mother. Most are done out of convienance. Millions of
immigrants enter our country seeking convienance, not out of desperation.I understand desperation. Of my 45 employees - 21 are
immigrants. 3 from Ghana want an education, 2 from Cambodia watched their
parents starve to death and were able to leave before they also died. One
employee carried his young son on his back through the jungle while running from
the North Vietnamese only to find at the end of the day that his son was dead
after having been shot. 6 from India show me pictures of their desperately poor
slums while 4 others lived in relative opulance. The Bulgarian came when the
wall fell. All are here legally
Thank you, thank you, thank you. How we treat people is a moral issue. I welcome
guidance from religious leaders on moral issues. Next time you see
someone in our community who looks like they come from another country, smile at
them and say hello. If they need help, offer to serve them. It's the
Christian thing to do. Thanks LDS Church leaders for reminding us about that.
I see a lot of comments on here criticizing the Church's statement. Many are
presumably from loyal members of the Church. Rather than reflexively criticize,
maybe we should consider what the Church is trying to teach us, ponder the
message, and see if our views or actions could be improved.
The LDS church mentions that this is a Federal issue. Then why has the LDS
church put themselves in the middle of this issue for the past year or so here
in Utah? It seems as if this is a Federal issue to the LDS church and the
Latinos when laws get passed not in their favor! It sure didn't seem to be a
Federal issue when the Utah Compact was introduced and the LDS church leaders,
Latinos etc were all on board and very excited. Remember? It was in the news
for weeks straight. So what is it LDS church? All Federal or only Federal when
your agenda is behind a bit?
On this issue I have to say I can't imagine a difference between what Jesus
would do and what the LDS church has done. The LDS church is to be commedned for
taking this higher road and doing it in the face of certain opposition. My
prayers and for what it is worth, my blessing are upon this church.
Since my post on the first page seems to be fairly popular may I please ask one
favor from many of you posting comments. Please stop saying "the
church" when commenting. It sounds highly egotistical to refer to the LDS
church as "the church". Don't assume there is only one church in
Utah. Typing LDS church would be correct and less assuming.
WOW! I guess this statement has generated more responses than any other Deseret
News article in the history of the paper.I hope that the Brethren
will clarify which other laws are henceforth unimportant. But of course, they
never ask you in a temple recommend interview if you obey the law - not really.
They ask if you are honest in your dealings with your fellow men, and apparently
you can be that on phony papers as long as you do no harm.Its nice
to know. A little confusing, since it seems to fly in the face of things that I
have been taught since 1950, but ok, I can chalk it up to continuing revelation
and move on.
It is funny to see conservativeMormons going against the LDS church on this
one. Are you the same Conservative Mormons that criticized those who were
opposed to the LDS church taking action on Prop 8 ? You called those people
some nasty names and questioned their loyalty to the LDS Church and Gospel. My
how the tables have turned.
RE: The StumpedI have family members from Mexico. There are several
countries south of them that are much worse off. I went to the CIA site, it
shows Mexico has 18.2% below the poverty line, with 5.6 unemployment. The US has
12% under the poverty line with 9.7 unemployment. The number you quote was based
on a statistical formula that was only used one year. There are over 3 billion
people living in worse conditions than those in poverty in Mexico. Mexico has
food programs for the poor. Tony Yapais and Senator Robles both have
told us that they come here for the jobs. It's better pay. It has very little to
do with poverty. Honest people come here under the law, dishonest people come
This statement floored me. "State legislation that focuses only on
enforcement "is likely to fall short of the high moral standard of treating
each other as children of God."Since when has our laws been
measured by this standard, and will this measure be used in all areas of law
from now on in Utah?
@joelwischYou wrote: "Mass expulsion without serious cause has
never happened in our country"Wrong. Read your Mormon history.
As a Utah Catholic I can choose to disagree with my ecclesiastical leaders on
civil issues. All HB 116 has tried to do is to address the ideals of the Utah
Compact, which was signed off on by Bishop Wester. Even he knows that no state
law is going to be perfect but at least the conversation is still ongoing.
@ Fitness Freask -- how do you decide who is and who isn't your
"neighbor"? You think God loves his children from Mexico less than he
@DrGrooveyI think there is a basic problem with your statement.
See, it is not the reponsibility of the government to think in terms of the
individual. The constitution/Bill of rights takes care of any expectations
individuals get to have...PERIOD.Alas this is the core problem with
alot of thinking these days...the government is not the red cross, or any other
charitable organization dedicated to helping individuals...it cannot be, as much
as you folks would like to make it be.Government must take actions
that ensure the strength and security of the Republic...Illegal immigration is
the poster child for why our government is failing...no it is not the sole
cause, but rather the same focus on the individual's circumstance across the
board is damning this nation.Take a hard look at California...tell
me why they are essentially bankrupt...
To RRB: You wrote, "since when has our laws been measured by this standard,
and will this measure be used in all areas of law from now on in Utah?"It would be a fine thing if enough voters used this as their standard
for judging the actions of their elected officials and let them know that was
the standard when they vote them out for falling short.
I am still trying to understand what the LDS Church is actually saying. Either
people respect and honor the law or they don't. Or, it all depends on your
excuse for breaking the law. I like the comment from one reader who wondered if
they could illegally enter into heaven and then square things with the Lord and
stay there. Might be more interesting to see how many would be deported from
that location. As a nation, we do have a problem that is already here. Yes, it
is both a Federal and a State's issue as it impacts both. The laws need to be
enforced and obeyed. Either you have laws or you don't. The LDS Church's
statement left alot of confusion over where they really stand on this issue.
Maybe the rules for members are changing now regarding how honest you really
need to be in order get a temple recommend?
So the only people eligible for compassion are those here illegally? Let's not
forget, this is a country wide problem, and with the addition of several state
enforcement laws, and ability to go after business, I think we are headed
towards strong enforcement. I don't think some in the LDS church
believe it's a crime? They try to walk on both sides of the fence, and it serves
no one. We have guest worker programs already, those here illegally
chose not to come that way. Why would they decide that path this time when they
know they won't be prosecuted? Do we really want a slave class of people? is
that compassion? With 9% unemployment, I know who deserves compassion, but they
are being ignored.
The one thing I don't get in this statement is: "State legislation that
focuses only on enforcement "is likely to fall short of the high moral
standard of treating each other as children of God.""Exactly what makes state level enforcement "likely to fall short" of
this standard? We can identify, detain and deport with full respect for their
status as children of God. What's hard to do is to offer that respect when they
are stealing identities or committing other fraud in order to work in this
country.Then there is the fact that anyone who knows they are here
illegally is guilty of a federal felony with a 5 year sentence. (USC title 8,
look for penalties). So their crime may only be a civil infraction resulting in
removal, but any citizen who is aware of their status is a felon. So their very
presence puts Neighbors, co-workers, bosses and fellow church goes at risk of
being convicted as felons. "So sorry your son is now a felon
and has to spend five years in Federal Prison because the church decided illegal
aliens could serve missions and he had one as a companion."
Wouldn't it be nice if Senators Hatch and Lee, Congressmen Bishop, Chaffetz, and
Matheson would take this statement and similar statements from Bishop Wester and
other prominent church leaders in Utah and propose legislation to get the
Federal Government to DO something about illegal immigration.Sadly,
when George W. Bush and Senator John McCain tried to address the issue, the
Republicans went bonkers and threw the epithet "amnesty" into their
faces.I don't see many Democratic members of Congress working to
solve the immigration issue either.Where are the statesmen when we
A couple more points. 1: The Brethren have not spoken, this was a press
release, not delivered to the church in Conference or via the Ensign. Maybe
it'll be read over the pulpits this weekend, but it's still a political
statement. NOT a doctrinal statement so disagreement is fine.2:
Someone asked what would Jesus Do? Well with those who were breaking his
fathers law and desecrating the temple he braided a whip and drove them out with
violence. He also taught to render unto Caesar. Both of those events support
those who want to deport and then allow return under a guest worker program.
3. This is NOT A RACIAL ISSUE! Stop trying to claim it is one. We
want all illegals out, regardless of where they come from. Just because the
majority are from south of the border doesn't mean it's all about that
ethnicity. Illegals from all over the world are robbing this country blind.
It's not racial, despite the lefts repeated claims that it somehow is racial.
It's legal vs illegal.
Until all the drug related crime and the illegal trafficking in human slavery
that is tied to the importing of drugs along with the killing of our Police,
Deputy Sheriffs and Highway Patrol Officers is brought under control then how
can the states of Utah and Arizona which unfortunately happen to be at the apex
of the crossroads and conduits of several major pipelines geographically for
much of these types of criminal activities be expected not to take a stand.
Based on these issues alone with the extent of the drug related culture that has
deviently permeated our society then I have some issues with not allowing states
to pass legislation on this major issue due largely on the fact that the federal
government has done a poor job of addressing...so I disagree with some points
attempted to be made here... because yes there is cause to be concerned about
bad apples and a need to separate the wheat from the wild tares. We can no
longer afford to turn a blind eye...to the new generation of Gadiantan robbers.
"he LDS Church reiterated the First Presidency teaching that undocumented
status shouldn't alone prevent an otherwise worthy Latter-day Saint from
entering the church's temple or being ordained to the priesthood."Unfortunately undocumented workers often have a few other issues that
constitute criminal activity, such as one or more of the following:1)
Falsifying employment documents & Social Security Numbers2)
Non-payment of employment taxes3) Falsifying or not filing tax returns4) Driving without auto insuranceMost of these and other legally
required documents have clauses which stipulate "under penalty of
perjury"Doesn't sound like it is easy to stay worthy.
The other part that the LDS church forgot to put in the statement: " The
LDS church in no way is involved with the politics of Utah, nor influence the
members of it's congress.", " Furthermore the LDS church in no way
would in fringe upon the law that divides church and state." When the LDS
church can follow the laws of this country, then they can display statements
like this on the issues that are controversial, and effect this nation, but
until then this state has no voice, and why, most of the members of the
legislative branch of Utah are mormon. That is why I, as a citizen of Utah will
never be properly represented. Bias T.V. news reporting, bias newspaper
reporting, bias legislation, and politics. Does something sound like communism.
Oh, but that couldn't happen here......Right. If you are not a mormon, you
...just ...don't...fit....in. Immigration is not for the church to decide nor be
involved with, this statement is irrelevant, and shouldn't have been even
written, that is why we have a government to make decisions, not the
churches.There are laws separating church and state. Not here.
@Adam,Regarding your request to refer to the "LDS Church",
context is everything. The article makes clear which church is being discussed.
If I were commenting about a statement by the Catholic Church, I would
similarly say "the Church" if the context made clear I was referring
to the Catholic Church.
Thats a nice dance around the issue.Illegal is Illegal why dance around it?Is
illegal illegal?Nice feel good statement. Sounds like Bill Clinton. Depends on
what is is.
Lets see I tell my kids do not do certain things but if they do oh well. I park
my Motor Home in your driveway without your permission because I have no where
else to park it. You should not be judgemental by having me evicted. Say What!
Wow, 177 comments and growing. I like the comments of toosmartforyou, Fitness
Freak, RRB, Dadof5sons, Bompar, Kathy, Brer Rabbit, Patriot, cork and best of
all Boston Terry. Boston Terry really has the answer to this problem. This
statement (by the church) would make any politician proud. It gives something
for all of us. For me, a firm supporter of our immigration laws and for Tony,
Luz and Doug and those who want open borders for all. From this statement I can
show compassion for those several million who are waiting in line around the
world to come here legally and support the idea for those here illegally to go
home and come back legally, or "square up". Some still don't
understand the difference between immigrant and illegal immigrant. If you are
ever in Manila, Philippines go by the embassy and see the several 1,000 standing
in the hot sun for days waiting to immigrate after a 12 year waiting period.
Those are immigrants! If the Feds would just do their job this would not be an
One only needs to watch spanish-speaking television in Utah to see what kind of
environment the Mexican people are living in. It is one of fear and murder. I
repectfully disagree with the previous comment that millions are here just for
convenience. Find out what it's like there and you may have different
feelings.How are we SUPPOSED to deal with this other than a federal,
charitable solution. As a matter of practicality, there is NO way to deport all
illegal aliens in this country. Do we want to try to do so, take the hard line?
Or should we let them have some legal and beneficial way to stay here and be
productive in society?Millions of immigrants in the past have come
to the U.S. legally, and contributed mightily to our collective success. To
continue to make it illegal and then condone it propagates illegal activity. We
need a federal-level solution which includes a streamlined, fair, legal process
for people to enter the country. That's what Ellis Island was about. It would
probably lead to more law-abiding immigrants coming than is now the case.
I was hoping that the church would have also mentioned (or reminded embers) That
it does not encourage, Members whom are Employers, to break the law by hiring
those that are here illegally.It always seams employers (aka)the
magnet that draws in cheap illegal labor get a pass on obeying and sustaining
the laws of the land...When Joseph Smith was asked how he was able
to govern all of the members, he stated he "taught them corrprinciplespils
and they governed themselves."We know what the laws are, it is
not that hard people.
The LDS church along with many other churches that may share a similar opinion
may be world-wide institutions, but they need to operate within the laws of the
borders where they operate. I am really unsure what is being suggested in this
official statement. Are members of the LDS church being encouraged to
harbor/support fugitives of the law? Is the LDS church willing to harbor and
support fugitives of the law? Or does the church believe it has the authority
not to obey the law and is it encouraging its members not to obey the laws
regarding illegal persons in the United States? And since this is a world-wide
church, does this message relate to members in other countries as well? I think
it is rare that God would require anyone to break the law of the country in
which they reside and in this case I just can't believe this message comes from
God. Are Bishops in other countries "encouraging" their members to
support illegals in their country or is this message purely politically
motivated and meant ONLY for the U.S.?
@ phgreekI most strongly object that the government is not in the
business of helping individuals, but should ony be concerned with propagating
the republic. That sounds dictatorial and self-serving rather than what I've
ever known the government's role to be. The overall and arching
principles in the constitution and Declaration of Independence were the
protection of the individual and his right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of
happiness. If it were not so, the founders could have done their jobs much
easier and not had to gaurantee all the rights we have.Therefore, I
respectfully disagree with the foundation premise of your argument. The
founding documents of the U.S. say that ALL men are created equal, endowed by
their creator with inalienable rights. I would think that "ALL" men
includes "ALL" men.However, I will concede that the
current situation is untenable and the system is broken. Something needs to be
done! But, let's make sure it's a good, workable, and humane solution.
The Church's statement on illegal immigration demonstrates common sense and even
more important, applies the principles of unconditional love and forgiveness.I am an advocate against illegal immigration, but at this point an
enforcement-only policy appears to be unreasonable, on humanitarian as well as
on logistic grounds.I suggest that first, we must enforce our borders and
second, those who committed crimes, must be returned to their native country
When those who complain about amnesty begin to refuse warning traffic tickets,
and insist on the real thing, I will take their cries about 'no amnesty' more
Wise balance and compassionate counsel.
"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is concerned that any
state legislation that only contains enforcement provisions is likely to fall
short of the high moral standard of treating each other as children of
God."How is this applied to all other "state
legislation" (laws) that contain "only enforcement provisions"?
Adam would you please let me know how you became so perfect? My understanding is
we all have sins. The only sinless person to walk on the face of the earth,
under your statement, would be the only one to get to heaven legally. We all
have sins, and repentance, the atonement, and enduring to the end are what will
make us all legal.If you have become perfect and can say you are
"legal" to enter heaven, please share with the rest of us how you did
it. I'm sure we would all like to know how.
In a perfect world what the LDS church is suggesting would be wonderful. It isnt
a perfect world. The federal government isnt going to control illegal
immigration. Illegal aliens are going to come to the U. S. and suck the
entitlement well dry. Legal citizens are going to have to pay the bill. The
church suggest that U. S. citizens should Avoid being judgmental in immigration
issues. U. S. citizens are expected to obey the laws, why shouldnt illegal
aliens? There is a double set of standards at work here and legal citizens are
getting very tired of it
Consider this: A United Order world. No borders. No racism. No haves and
have nots. All working together. All serving one another. All respecting and
loving each and all. All children of God.Would there be concern
that someone south of you crossed over into your "space" and should
therefore be "deported" because in your view they had no "legal
right" to do so? Come on folks. What does it matter in the
eternities if people want to live here in the United States whether by the
government's legal process or not?
Does the church give any thoughts to how a mass influx of people who do not hold
the same values and morals as many of us do will impact our already morally
declining society?The unwed pregnancy rate for hispanics is very
high.Studies have shown that several generations of Hispanics come from single
parent housholds. Studies also show that these children are most often at a
disadvantage in a society. Why do you want this to be our society and our
children exposed? This is not the teaching of many of our churches. If you doubt
what I am saying,please Google for facts and read the stats for Los Angeles
schools. This is not racist,this is a true concern I have to protect our future
generations and the moral values I have been taught by my parents and church. If you travel the world there are cultural differences that should and
deserve to be respected. When people enter a new society in small numbers each
has a chance to adjust to the other. Thus legal,controlled immigration is good
@CowboyJoe: You're right, no one is perfect. No one is without sin. When
we sin, which we all do, we repent of our sins, we promise not to do it again,
and we're forgiven. When someone is living in their sin, as is an illegal alien,
he cannot be forgiven, since he isn't repenting!By the way, to be an
immigrant, one has to officially "land" in this country. Those who are
here illegally have not gone through the process, therefore they are not
immigrants, illegal or otherwise! If you are living in sin, you are not
allowed a temple recommend, therefore, no celestial kingdom. Yet the church is
allowing illegals to have temple recommends. Would I be allowed a temple
recommend if I drank tea or a beer once in awhile? I guess if I wanted to lie
about it, I could. I'm sorry, it just isn't right! What is the point?
Those who are here without documents have to obey the law of the land, and the
rest of the commandments, just as the rest of us.
@I.cee. So because you feel you have a handle on the eternities, that while
here on earth we should turn the blind eye? roll over and play dead? What does
it matter in the eternities...? Wow, how short sighted are you. If that be the
case, then what does it matter if I see something my neighbor has and hey I
decide to "borrow" if for a while. What does it matter in the
eternities? Sorry, but illegals come here breaking the law. They sneak across
our borders. What would happen to you or me if we sneaked into our neighbors
house? Oh, right, what does it matter in the eternities. Please, don't through
the eternities card in our face. Personally the LDS church's statement is wrong
and out of step as to what is happening in this country. Maybe their church
leadership needs to come visit California and live among the illegals in
southern CA and really see for themselves just how abusive and bad this state
is. We can love them, but that doesn't change the fact that they want what they
believe is theirs and they have broken the laws.
This Latter-day Saint stand with the church on this one. I 100% agree with what
this said and have felt that way long before the Church said it. Happy to see
that I'm actually on the same page with the church, that makes my day!
How different is our situation/conflict here in the USA (with our friends south
of the border), from the Israeli - Palestinian situation/conflict?Many of us are in sympathy with the Israelis, to whom the land of Israel was
given by God -- which begs the question: To whom was the land of America given
by God?The Book of Mormon prophet, Lehi, who brought his people over
from 600 B.C. Jerusalem taught: "...We have obtained a land of promise, a
land which is choice above all other lands; a land which the Lord God hath
covenanted with me should be a land for the inheritance of my seed. Yea, the
Lord hath covenanted this land unto me, and to my children forever, and also all
those who should be led out of other countries by the hand of the Lord." (2
Nephi 1:5)Considering this pronouncement by the Lord God, should we
think more in terms of sharing this land, than of excluding part of those the
Lord has covenanted with: that this land would be an "inheritance" to
them "forever"?In this issue, who are we most like;
Israelis, or Palestinians? What should we do?
@very concerned,Based on your statement I have to conclude you have
the same understanding of the constitution and declaration...indeed all equal.
Those guarantees are all you get though...you don't get a guarantee of quality
of life, or special treatment...just freedom to pursue, WITHIN THE LAW, what it
is you want to pursue without repercussions from government.When the
government goes beyond creating a safe place to pursue happiness...it is out of
bounds. The growth of entitlements...which is what the government is doing with
illegals (for example) is bad for the country...considering the fed is doing so
in violation of its own standing laws is unconscionable.There are
entitlements (children $ elderly) I will back...but this chicanery is not one of
"Mexico has the 14th best economy in the world."Mexico
definitely does not have the 14th best standard of living. I think you mean
largest economy which is more a function of their large population rather than
how good their economy actually is.
@positiverealist:"Once again to enlighten those that don't
know, unlawful presence is only a Federal Civil matter not criminal..."Breaking a federal law is also criminal activity. And they remain a
criminal until they leave."If you are caught crossing the
border without inspection that is criminal, if you are not caught or if you
overstay a visa it is only civil more like a speeding ticket."Staying here without permission is like speeding over and over again every
day, 24/7. Such a repeat conduct will eventually cause a loss of license and
perhaps jail time."The Church is saying they don't encourage
people to come over without the proper paperwork or to overstay their visas but
they are also telling the Government that we should look for a reasonable
solution allowing them to 'Square up.'"In other words, the
church is saying if you come here (or overstay) some sort of amnesty should be
Most affluent countries require proof of when you plan to leave their country.
If you want to immigrate you must have a job before you arrive, and the employer
provides the proof. In Bermuda they want to see proof of your return flight. In
other words you must show you will not be a drain on their economy. They take
in refugee's and needy cases as they can provide for them. They do not turn
their economies over to the whim of millions of the worlds mobile populations.
Most of the pro-illegal immigration/immigrant positions I see do not
acknowledge that a percentage of the illegals are here without desperate need.
All illegals are viewed as needy and therefore I am evil to want them out. I
understand many, many people are here for a variety of healthy- but non-needy
reasons.I love Italy. In a heartbeat if I could get even a menial
job in Italy I would move there and stay for years. I know many people who would
travel the world this way. If I could buy a house as easy as many illegals did
recently I might even stay a lifetime.
I remember 20 years or so ago the Church put the word out to not immigrate to
the United States once you join the Church, but rather stay in your own homeland
and build your life there. What happened to that policy?
Very concerned 7:33am. Rather than watch television you should get out and
travel a bit. There are about 180 countries in the world whose economy and
conditions are worse off than Mexico. If you would like to show your compassion
for them I can give you several relief agencies in, say the Sudan (where I
worked for some time with them), that you can donate to to help out.
A mass "coverup?. Talk is cheap. As the Mormon Church sinks deeper and
deeper into the battle over amnesty for illegal aliens in Utah, it risks raising
questions about the influence that the Mormon Church will attempt to exercise
over Mitt Romney and Jon Huntsman should one of them eventually be elected
President of the United States. Questions have already been raised about the
influence the Mormon Church has exercised over Utah's elected officials when it
comes to illegal immigration. In 2005, at the behest of the Mormon Church,
former U.S. Sen. Robert Bennett snuck an amendment into an agriculture
appropriation bill that allows the Mormon Church to use the services of illegal
aliens. Then in 2011, Utah's Republican legislators set aside their promise to
uphold the Republican Party platform on illegal immigration when, encouraged by
the Mormon Church, they passed HB116, that would grant a Utah-specific amnesty
to illegal aliens and their employers.
If the Mormon Church chooses to instruct delegates on how to vote on the
resolution to repeal HB116 in a further effort to save Utah's illegal alien
amnesty bill, Romney may have to once again assert his independence from Church
leaders and Huntsman may be forced to directly address this issue for the first
time. Both would undoubtedly prefer that the Mormon Church stay out of the
current fray and leave the delegates of the state's major political party to
make their own decisions on the political merits of HB116 rather than making it
a test of religious faith. When a group of Republican delegates pressured
Utah's governor to veto HB116, a senior Church official stood next to the
governor as he signed it. When Republican delegates introduced resolutions to
repeal HB116 at county Republican Conventions, the Mormon Church issued an
"Immigration Response" that set out its support for HB116 "that
will allow those who are now here illegally to work legally." However, if
it does and if the delegates do indeed defeat the resolution, questions will
arise about the control that the Mormon Church exercises over people sworn to
represent those who elect them.
Business Lobbyist: It's Too Late to Stop the E-Verify Train"Pending action at the federal level is going to force some quick
decision-making for the business community. House Judiciary Committee Chairman
Lamar Smith (R-TX) is expected to introduce a bill in the coming weeks mandating
that most or all employers across the country enroll in the E-Verify
program," says Joe Kefauver with Parquet Public Affairs in a commentary
this week for Convenience Store News."But while it is unclear
how it will all play out, one thing is very clear to those who have been closely
involved in this issue across the country -- the E-Verify Train has not only
left the station, it is barreling down the track like a runaway
locomotive."Dan Stein report
Pamela Atkinson "said she liked the emphasis 'that we are all God's
children' and the importance of treating all with compassion and
understanding."What exactly is this supposed to mean? Is there
some "inhumane treatment of illegal aliens" problem in this state? I
don't believe so. What, then, is the point? Could it be that these
terms -- "compassion," "understanding," "love thy
neighbor," and "how we treat God's children," are being hijacked
by some and used as code terms for endorsing illegal behavior? Because I'm not
seeing any particular "compassion" problem that would warrant the
Church mentioning these terms. Certainly allowing illegals ample time to get
their affairs in order and return to their countries with their families in
peace, without even having to serve jail or prison time, is compassionate! Atkinson continuing: "It isn't amnesty. It doesn't talk about a
pathway to citizenship."Not only is this a rationalization --
by most definitions it IS amnesty -- "legalization" of "guest
worker" arguably is WORSE than citizenship: With citizenship, an immigrant
at least PRETENDS to pledge allegiance to THIS country and its Constitution.
"Guest workers," on the other hand, don't even pretend!!!
It seems that the LDS Church and some of those commenting here consider the
privilege of living/working in the United States an entitlement for all of the
nearly 7 Billion people living on the planet today. Or do I misunderstand and
that entitlement is only for a specific ethnic/racial group living South of the
U.S. Border? Also, "Illegal Alien" is not a racial/ethnic
group, it is a crime and the name of all of those that have violated United
State' border or visa laws. The LDS Church does not encourage the violation of
visas or borders of any nation except the United States. Several years ago the
Church was asking its members to stay in their own country and build the Church
up there. I guess those days are over.
"toosmartforyou: I too would put in place something that allows people to
work in this country without the need to become criminals in so doing."There is such a provision. The problem is, those who come on visas to
work for a season picking apples, etc., decide they like it here and would
rather stay... which makes them lawbreakers. They seem to think that it's OK to
break laws in their own country so it must be OK to do the same here.------------------------@BostonTerry: "Most affluent
countries require proof of when you plan to leave their country.But
having proof of when you plan to leave doesn't solve the problem. They can lie
and say they have a plan, and even a Bus or plane ticket out as proof. That
doesn't mean they will leave."I remember 20 years or so ago the
Church put the word out to not immigrate to the United States once you join the
Church, but rather stay in your own homeland and build your life there. What
happened to that policy?"Yeah, and what happened to the policy
to "obey, honor, and sustain the law"?
I am just wondering if all the people so incensed with illegal immigration and
the LDS Church's position feel as strongly about the illegal Canadians, or
Norwegians, or British who are here illegally. Of course! All illegals should be
treated the same! So every time you see a European-looking person, do you have
some kind of reaction that brings up your anti-illegal-immigrant feelings? Maybe
we could send the police into the European-looking neighborhoods to root them
out? Maybe we could just sit back and think about that for a minute?
@very concerned 7:33 a.m.:"Or should we let them have some
legal and beneficial way to stay here and be productive in society?"We don't need immigrants right now. We have 15 million unemployed
Americans sucking up billions in unemployment benefits from money we don't have
and must borrow from China, et. al. We need immigrants (illegal and otherwise)
to go home, take their families with them, and give up their work to unemployed
Americans. We'll let them know when we need them back."Millions of immigrants in the past have come to the U.S. legally, and
contributed mightily to our collective success."Yes, and the
operative word is, 'legally.'"To continue to make it illegal
and then condone it propagates illegal activity."I think I see
your point. We need to stop making bank robbing illegal... right? "We need a federal-level solution which includes a streamlined, fair,
legal process for people to enter the country."We have a
solution. You apply for citizenship, line up like the rest of the foreigners
who would like to come here, and wait your turn.
My wife came illegally to save her children from abuse. She was denied a visa
twice. Never stolen and identity, nor have our children. The children have all
worked, and work. Funny, you all think they have to steal an ID to work. Not so. Just have to have an ITIN number. The Federal Gov. knows who
is here when they sign up for an ITIN. Once a year, you get a letter in the
mail, "your social security number doesn't match any records, etc."
They "know" what the number is...they know it is an ITIN.
Then, you wait a year, and get another letter.We have insurance on
all our children, and my wife. They work harder than most of the
"local" kids, who want to call in sick, not show up, go out back and
have a smoke. They also get paid more than the other kids...why? They work
hard. Period. Many of you "American" kids--well, you have been
selling your inheritance for a smoke or a hit. Too bad, because God says in the
scriptures, when the people of this land become wicked, he'll bring another
people here.Seems to be.
@l.cee. Hey that sounds great. A world without borders? Despotic leaders would
embrace that idea too. Why does the flag of the United States of America fly
over the LDS church office building in SLC rather than the UN flag? Perhaps you
can answer your own questions.
Like Jesus, the Mormon Church has some liberal leanings.I'm so
totally proud of the LDS Leaders for finally making this comment.I'm
an old white guy that hears derogatory statements on a regular basis against
supposed illegal Hispanics that I certainly hope will now end.Thank
you Tom Monson for your leadership on the issue.
I just thought of something brilliant!To every LDS member on here
who stands apart from the church based on the "being honest in all their
dealings" and temple recommends, baptism, comments, etc.No
offense but I have only one point to make to all of you and I say this kindly
and in firm belief that my comment should (not will, but should) end this
criticism entirely:You nor I have authority to say who can go in
God's temple. God does. There is no more discussion after that. Those who stand
against the church should reflect on the simple teachings we all know regarding
priesthood authority.I stand in defense of the Church and all those
who are worthy and hold temple recommends. I know they aren't perfect but as I
am not, I will not cast stones at them. All personal feelings aside, I have no
authority whatsoever to decide who is clean enough for the temple of God. Seeing
members loose sight of faith for such worldly beliefs worries me. I'll ask all
of you, kindly, to reconsider.
@A voice of Reason"To every LDS member on here who stands apart
from the church based on the 'being honest in all their dealings' and temple
recommends, baptism, comments, etc. ... You nor I have authority to say who can
go in God's temple. God does."But God does not walk in crooked
paths, A voice of Reason. Think about it.
anti-liar:First, the source of the quote-Doctrine And
Covenants, Section 3: 1-4, 7"The works, and the designs, and
the purposes of God cannot be frustrated, neither can they come to naught.For God doth not walk in crooked paths, neither doth he turn to the
right hand nor to the left, neither doth he vary from that which he hath said,
therefore his paths are straight, and his course is one eternal round.Remember, remember that it is not the work of God that is frustrated, but the
work of men;For although a man may have many revelations... if he
boasts in his own strength, and sets at naught the counsels of God, and follows
after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires, he must fall and incur
the vengeance of a just God upon him.""For, behold, you
should not have feared man more than God. Although men set at naught the
counsels of God, and despise his words"My previous comments
defend against arguments that the LDS church is hypocritical, and in context
this scripture only defends my claims. No offense intended, I just don't see an
Frankly, I don't know what all of the fuss is about. The Europoean settlers
were not required by the natives of this country to have a green card, when they
came here. They were welcomed with opened arms. Have the Saints forgotten that
the Lord said that these, so called emigrants, would return to this land of
their inheritance. This land does not belong to the Gentiles, was only given to
them temporarily and for the express purpose of the gathering of Israel, which
includes those people that we are trying so vehemently to keep out. This land
belong to the ancestors of these immigrants. Welcoming those families back home
is the only salvation for the Gentiles of this nation.
I truly feel for members of the Church on this thread who have a problem with
this pronouncement. It must be troubling to hear something from Salt Lake that
conflicts with your personal take. I feel fortunate to be delighted with the
statement and grateful to the Church for making it.
Agree or disagree this stand by the LDS church is courageous. I happen to agree
with their stand. Not only is this the compassionate thing to do. It is the
shrude thing to do. If Utah can keep the ones who are hard workers and turn the
gang members and other trouble makers over to the federal government to be
deported, we benefit our economy. Ut
There are many on this board who disagree with the leadership's position on
immigration. I wonder how many of these same individuals stand in disagreement
with the leadership on the position of same sex marriage, abortion, pre-marital
sex, the Word of Wisdom and other things. Are disagreement shows how close many
of us are to being apostates ourselves. I was once told by a dear Bishop, that
whenever we come in contact with a disagreement with the leadership to ask the
question, "What would Christ do in the same circumstances?" Once I
put that into my mind I learned that the disagreements with the leadership was
mans terms not the Lord's. These men are called as special witnesses of Lord
Jesus Christ. The PR man is speaking for the Lord's ONLY mouthpiece on earth,
Thomas Spencer Monson. Therefore, this is what Christ wants the world to do.
Yet, we still have our free agency to agree or disagree. With each decision
there is a consequence to follow. I love this statement because it is exactly
what Christ wants for his church to do, to LEAD OUT.
@Say No to BO, ICE does not have the man power to deport 11 to 14 million people
yet more deportations have occurred with the Obama administration than any other
and the numbers are at record highs. You are correct that many are arrested for
speeding or other misdemeanors and released and some are even released on what
is call voluntary deportation where they agree to go back to their country
because we don't want to pay to have them in jail and we don't want to pay to
send them back so they act like they are doing something about it. I for one
think the real criminals should be dealt with harshly. Having said criminals
that is what I mean, if we want the laws to be more stringent we need to change
them. The Gov knows that we cannot deport 11 million people because it would
hurt our country and devastate Mexico. But I am serious because the current
deportation numbers are higher than they have ever been so to say that the Gov
is not doing anything is not quite right either.
@donburi the Bishops of the Church have a set list of questions for Temple
Recommend interviews and that specifically is not one of the questions as far as
asking someone if they are using a false identity. Our Supreme Court ruled in
2009 that those using false ID just to work will not be charged the same as
someone using false ID for identity theft where they are taking out loans and
stealing. Illegal aliens paid more than 9 billion in the the Social Security
fund alone just in 2009 and that does not count Fed and State taxes. Sure they
claim more but they never get that money back. I don't say this to justify it
because it still remains wrong, however who am I to judge what the Church is
saying either. Many of the laws are unjust and we should work to change those
legally. The Church normally does not help illegal aliens in the long term but
families are being divided on a regular basis because of these problems and that
is not right either. We are forcing many of them to use false IDs by inviting
them to work.
@joelwisch - Unfortunately you are mistaken about mass expulsion never happening
here in the U.S. It happened to the members of the Mormon faith three times.
Once in Kirtland, OH, again in Missouri, and finally in Nauvoo, IL. That's why
we (I am a member), ended up in Utah.
@ Utah 1The problem, as I see it, is that our immigration
authorities quit treating immigrants like people a long time ago. I have first
hand experience with them and they are truly an embarrassment to our country.
The way the person I sponsored as an exchange student was deplorable (and all we
were trying to do was comply) and the way I was treated as a sponsor was
unacceptable. We did it all legally, and the young man is now part of our
family...but I have nothing good to say about ICE. It is a bureaucratic
nightmare, full of jaded employees who treat our potential guests and citizens
like so many cattle. Although I believe immigrants should take the legal route,
I easily understand why some do not and actually feel they cannot -- because
they cannot affort the fees nor the legal representation to make it happen.We need to dimantle and rebuild ICE and make it easy for the good guys to get
here and difficult for the bad guys.
@ DY13"Over time, Utah will no longer be Utah. Our kids and grand
kids will live in a different Utah than the one we know. Economics 101"No matter what we do with regard to immigration, our kids will live in a
different Utah than the one we know. History 101. It's different now than when I
moved here 40 yrs ago. It's better. And part of the reason it's better is that
we have, for the most part, welcomed millions of people who have moved here,
including immigrants from other countries. Worrying about change is a useless
occupation. Emracing people and change is how we enrich our lives and our
culture. Your kids are not the ones complaining about immigration and change.
@positiverealist 9:42 p.m.: "@donburi the Bishops of the Church have a set
list of questions for Temple Recommend interviews and that specifically is not
one of the questions as far as asking someone if they are using a false
identity."Thew list of questions does not cover bank robbing
either. But, I believe such activities would disqualify for temple attendance.
It amazes me that not one pro illegal person on these boards or in our
community, including the LDS church, addresses the real underlying issues. Issue 1. Identity Theft and document fraud. These are felonies and are
not victimless crimes. In Utah, 1,626 companies were found to be paying wages
to the SSNs of children on public assistance under the age of 13. It is
estimated that 75 percent of working illegals are utilizing identity theft and
document fraud in order to obtain employment. I have seen zero concern for the
very real and very innocent victims of identity theft from the "lets show
compassion to the illegals" crowd and it is absolutely shameful.
From a moral standpoint:To support HB116 is to support institutional
racism and that is morally reprehensible. There are far more impoverished
nations than Mexico and there are far more impoverished races than hispanics.
The LDS church wants us to give pause to the targeting of one race or group.It should give us all pause when we seek to disproportionately give one race,
group or nationality the vast majority of the benefits provided by immigration,
especially when that very race, group or nationality has chosen the shameful and
criminal path of illegal immigration, identity theft and document fraud.
A wonderful declaration, humanitarian and in the spirit of Christ.Thank
you LDS church.
In 1986, I wrote: "Ephraim's descendants [residents of Utah and
other places who have joined the Church] will figure prominently in the
leadership of the House of Israel in the development of Zion, but it would be a
gross error to assume that Zion is the private domain of Ephraim. The scriptures
speak plainly of all the tribes coming to their inheritances in their various
lands. We are witnessing the emergence of all these long-lost cousins in Israel
in our day, as adversity, lawlessness, and political upheavals continue to drive
them to our borders of freedom. They come because of wars, famines, diseases,
natural disasters, and the love of freedom, but whatever the reasons they are
coming to claim their promised blessings at the hands of Ephraim. Let us never
be so surfeited by the things of this world that we cannot embrace them, when
they come with little more than the clothes on their backs."The
stated position of the Church today, now published to the world, is totally
consistent with what the scriptures reveal about the establishment of Zion in
the last days.May it ever be thus that we welcome the refugees.
My husband and I were recently in another state, attending business meetings and
also went to a pro-baseball game. It was great fun to see the enthusiasm of all
there, regardless of race or creed, cheering on the home team, wearing the motto
T-shirts and hats, etc. I think we all would like to cheer on the
peoples of the world to do better for themselves and their families. Rules and
laws make everyone safer - that is why there are laws, that's a fact. The
immigration laws need reformed - and also governments in other parts of the
world need to be less corrupt so that their people will WANT to/CAN be home and
have opporunities like we have here.
Didn't Church leaders already state their opinion regarding illegal immigration?
Why do they have to repeat or reiterate it? Does it have anything to do with the
fact that just a couple of days prior, several Latin American nations voiced
their opposition to proposed Utah legislation? Unfortunately, bad
long-term decisions are sometimes made because of a perceived short-term benefit
(to "get along", be seen as the good guy, financial reward, etc.).This reminds me so much of the Book of Mormon and the Nephites' desire
(for whatever reason) to just get along with the Gadianton robbers. If I recall,
it didn't turn out that well.
@ A voice of Reason | 7:39 p.m.Here's the arguement: God is not a
respecter of persons. If I must be honest in all of my dealings with my fellow
man, then everyone else is required to as well. But such does not
appear to be the case when it comes to temple worthiness for illegal aliens (and
this is just one example).
The nativists have to admit their judgmentalism and repent. The Church has
given some very good guidance here. (1) secure the borders (2) punish
businesses and owners/management with RICO fines and imprisonment for knowingly
hiring illegals (3) a sensible immigrant reform path to citizenship.A middle ground has to be possible because the great majority of Americans
will not tolerate a police state style roundup as well as Hispanic citizens and
their allies will vote any politician out of office who tries nativist
enforcement.Let's work together.
This is a nice comments that I read about this problem and I would like to refer
to LDS readers specially. (I think most of the Deseret News readers are members
Note also that the Mormon pioneers--possibly the ancestors of some who
oppose this statement--were illegal immigrants. You might be the descendent of
an illegal immigrant yourself. Utah was owned by Mexico and we didn't get a land
grant( that is very true) Also note there is no legal path for the people who
most need to be here(Also very true, the path if any is a path that takes many
years )Also, for those thinking it was a membership or tithing issue: The Church
collects tithings from Mormons of all nations and they can be converted in
Mexico as well as here. We're a world-wide church, with more than half of
membership outside the U.S( I know many LDS members that would like to go and
study in BYU, but cant, just because they will never be accepted to enter in US.
Why dont more than half of the members have the opportunity to study there????)
When Christ comes again to reign, will borders matter?
@ James B. Young"Nativist"...ah yes here we go...what page
from the playbook did that come from?So...this is where we attach a
label to those with principle in order to deride them, and make them appear
close minded and insular. Why...because we do not respect our brtheren with
differing views, so we first try "reason" with them in scriptural
terms...then we resort to labels, and shame, then finally intimidation with
threats of overrunning the electorate.Unfortunately, all of this has
been done so frequently, nobody buys it anymore Mr. Young. May as well have
pulled BOs Guns and Bibles quote...because its tone is the same. BTW, EVERY person who is a citizen, who became so through the immigration
process resents the heck out of this you better listen garbage, and gets very
angry when you use them as a "gun".Its doing the people
who did things the RIGHT way a serious diservice...cut it out...
They are not judgmental but obsessed. Immigration is a core value of the self
centered and narrow minded tea party people.
I posted this on another article and I'll post it again here:When
Christ comes again to reign, will borders matter?
I'm glad we have the Articles of Faith that do not sway to political pressure.
@l.cee, To answer your question re: "When Christ comes to reign again will
borders matter." Perhaps not, but until that time comes and we find out, he
set up the U. S. as a sovereign nation to allow the spreading of the gospel.
Once again, why do you think the U. S. flag flies over the LDS church office
building and not the UN flag? The prophets have said that saints need to stay in
their own country to build the church there and as the 12th article of faith
states: "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and
magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law." This would
indicate to anyone with a brain that you obey the laws of the country where you
reside. Would you disagree with this article of faith?
I disagree with the Church's position on this issue.Repeal HB116 and
do everything in your power to avoid any "amnesty" no matter what
euphemistic names it comes under or who is pushing it.
I.cee,"When Christ comes will borders matter?"You better believe it! Borders matter right now! Try attending a Ward
"across the border" from where you are supposed to, and let's see how
you do in the recommend interview.The Church itself defines its
congregations according to "borders" and boundaries, and those are
supposed to be respected. If you want to "cross the borders and
boundaries" without approval from the proper authorities, you will rightly
be treated with suspicion.If so many from "across the
border" are interested in becoming Americans, let them petition the US
Government to annex the State of Mexico as the 51st State in the Union.Until then, honor and sustain the law!
Hmmm... let me see if I can use Tea Party English to break through the historic
myopia regarding the apprent desire to canonize the "Law of the Land"
(let us all bow toward DC and give praise to the US Code).Obamacare
= Law of the Land. We must never repeal nor ammend Obamacare as it is the Law of
the Land. Amen.Taxation = Law of the Land. The tax code is enshrined
in our holiest writ, of which not one jot nor tittle may be ammended nor
repealed, upon the penalty of Excommunication from the Great Land of the States
United. (I confess as a CPA I have a conflict of interest... the current tax
regime provides me with job security, which makes me a priest of the Most Holy
Law of the Land.)"Anti-immigrators" are the loudest
screechers in the debate over these issues and how horrible current laws are.
Dictionary.com has a great reference for "IRONY."How is
HB116 any different from your efforts to repeal federal healthcare or
simplification of the US tax system?Quit using jihadist reasoning to
justify your dislike of the color brown. It's embarrasing.
One issue the Church is dodging is the issue of how much of these people are
reaching into our pockets. I saw a recent article stating that something like 75
percent of immigrants from South of the Border are taking some kind of public
assistance.Sneaking into a country and taking free services meant
for citizens is wrong, no matter who does it. The fact that disproportionate
numbers of people of a certain "heritage" have been willing and able
to commit those wrongs should be a source of embarrassment to those of that
"heritage." It should not be turned on its head and converted into
some kind of defense, where anyone anyone who objects to the commission of the
wrong and wants to see it stopped is a "racist," and anyone of that
"heritage" who commits the wrong is a victim of "racism" if
someone tries to stop him.
Those 75 percent taking free assistance, does that include women who report
rape? Because I read of a GOP brain who wants illegal alien rape
victims to be deported. Talk about being soft on crime! He'd rather have rapists
walking free than illegal aliens.Another point, most illegals who
work her pay into Social Security, but the majority never collect because
they're not citizens. So you're reaching into THEIR pockets. Not that anyone
should be ashamed of stealing from the poor. It's a time-honored tradition here
in the Corporate States of America.
tmaxr: "Another point, most illegals who work her pay into Social
Security, but the majority never collect because they're not citizens. So you're
reaching into THEIR pockets." WRONG. Most illegals are being
paid under the table by greedy employers, and they contribute nothing to the tax
base. A lot of whatever they earn goes to mexico. Their 12 anchor babies
surely do take plenty out in welfare, WIC, health care, and free school,
however. Not to mention the added costs in crime and gangs that are brought by
@welcomethemall"How is HB116 any different from your efforts to
repeal federal healthcare or simplification of the US tax system?"It's not any different. The people behind these efforts you speak
of are actively seeking legal and lawful avenues for repeal of healthcare, tax
code simplification and the repeal of HB116. You can disagree with the effort
but I don't understand how you can fault the perfectly legal process. This is
in sharp contrast to the pro amnesty crowd who are actively encouraging illegals
to continue breaking the law.Once again it is the pro amnesty and
liberal types who seek to label those who disagree with them with derogatory and
insulting terms. When your best tactic is to smear, shame, and insult, you know
you've lost the argument.
To: ClaudioCorrea "Note also that the Mormon pioneers--possibly the
ancestors of some who oppose this statement--were illegal immigrants."
Interesting observation Claudio. Can you please state or quote a law that was on
Mexico's books when these immigrants traveled to Utah that made their settling
there illegal? Thank you.
There was a story in the Upper Valley LDS Life about a month ago that tells of a
lady who married an illegal alien and then later their consciences got to
bothering them. Since URL links are not allowed (I wonder why?)you will have to
Google "Young love in Rexburg" to view the story. I would suspect that
they have much less "guilt" now that they have done the right thing
and God has blessed them for it.To get a better perspective on
Immigration, both legal and illegal, your time will be well spent in viewing
this short video - just Google "Gumballs and Immigration". Did you learn anything new?
So simple, so true, the word of God. So hard for so many us to follow. Let's
have the compassion, love and non-judgmental hearts as well as respect for the
laws of God and of man that God expects of all his children. It's the one
constant in the doctrine of all religions, how we treat others. Remember, the
word of God that without love and service we are nothing, and all the law and
the prophets have no value to one without charity.
I M LDS 2 | 10:09 a.m. June 13, 2011 Provo, UT I disagree with the
Church's position on this issue.=============== Sad.You're officially on the road to apostasy.I will pray to you - and
other like you.
Idaho Stranger,I have seen this video (Immigration, World Poverty
and Gumballs) but went back to look at it again just to be sure.The
argument he makes (effectively) is that our immigration policies cannot reduce
world poverty as the impoverished are too numerous. No argument there.Other than the point that folks should be helped where they are (because most
cannot immigrate) the video has little bearing on how we need to proceed with
the immigration issue we have in the US.The church's response has
outlined an effective set of principles for us to implement. It addresses both
effective borders and humane treatment of those who are here.
A most difficult area to address. Here illegally yet things in Mexico are
terrible yet at the same time they have come without permission. I don't think
there is really any easy way to deal with illegal immigrants. Some one or some
people are going to have to make very difficult choices that will negatively
impact someone. You can't please everyone.
Rewarding law breaking with amnesty will never solve the problem. Those who
support illegal immigration are still telling people to come here illegally. I don't like the selective compassion that has hurt my fellow countrymen
in the immigration debate. Americans are hurting right now, hunger is hunger,
and to allow people to break the law and treat others without compassion is
wrong. If this is the Church policy, I want to hear it from the
First Presidency. I don't want to hear a press release from the for profit
business arm of the Church. This law treats the citizens of the
state without compassion. How would business like to lose their livelihood to
those from foreign countries? It creates a second class people in this country
out of those who broke the laws to come here. The only people who benefit are
business. Surely Utah is not that dishonest in our dealings that we would
destroy our countries foundation, circumvent honest immigration, and treat our
poor and middle class this way?
Well, today there was a press release that stated 2 LDS Branch Presidents were
deported on immigration related charges. As a non-member of the LDS faith, I
have to ask the question, "Does the LDS Church support the law of the land
or simply work around it?" It would seem to me that this question had to
come up when LDS Church leaders were interviewing these two individuals for the
positions. I would then assume that they knew this fact. This could be looked at
as supporting illegal activity. I hope the LDS Church is not going down this
path as I have admired the goals and ideals that this church has emphasized.
However, I am thinking twice now regarding what I hear and what I see. Does
anyone else feel like this?
Deuce,Amen. I feel the same way.
Here we go again, whatever happened the "we believe in ... obeying,
honoring, and sustaining the law" (12th Article of Faith"). The
Church seems to always look the other way at the law when it is convenient, but
if an active member should make a mistake in their life, the Church is ready to
excommunicate or disfellowship a person at the snap of your fingers; and if, God
forbid, you should work for the Church, you will be fired on the spot because
you can no longer hold a Temple Recommend. It makes me very ill to see that the
church always looks the other way when it comes to people being in this country
illegally. How can these people hole a temple recommend? When I have my temple
recommend interview, I am asked Am I honest in all of my dealings? I think if
you are breaking the law, how can you reply Yes to this question.