I wonder if comment boards at to incivility. The limited lengths of comments
may force people to get to the point, but they also make it hard to convey the
nuances of your position.I think though the point that civility is
something that each of us can do no matter what others do is very important.
Another important thing is each of us needs to ask on this matter
"is it I". We need to explore how we can speak more civilly and with
less fire and attack.
@ gizmo33:Yes, of course we all have the "absolute guarenteed
and protercted right" (???) to speak our minds. In trying to advance your
agenda, you missed the whole point of the article - that we do so with civility.
Neil T. - The Harry Reid fireside in Las Vegas was shelved due to stake
presidents there recognizing that Bro. Reid was in campaign mode and that to
offer him a microphone at that exact moment was not prudent. I wonder if Bro.
Reid continues to have the desire to share his testimony through a series of
firesides, as proposed last summer, with the Saints in the Las Vegas valley?
Gotta love the government distracting us with more social issues while the
nation collapses. Keep people focused on God Guns and Gays for just a little
while longer and it'll be too late to stop big business and the super rich from
crushing the rest of us completely.
civility and activist go hand in hand. The more activist groups we have pushing
their agenda through email alerts of lies and half truths to people, firing them
up to donate money and sometimes take matters into there own hands nothing will
change. These organizations just get more and more extreme everyday and they
are filled with lawyers who do nothing but file lawsuits against the government.
We are at the point where our news is brought to us by activist who get a
reports ear to write a one sided story that is full of mays and could that
people start believing is true.
Methinks this has more to do with the liberals losing their grip on their
precious "narrative" than any noble effort at civility.
@ Michael DeGroote at 3:02PM who wrote: "Civility is treating the other
person with respect and assuming their motives are good."Hmmm....close, but I do not assume many people's motives are "good".
I know better. I know many people whose motives are selfish, stupid or just
plain destructive. Now, they might BELIEVE their motives are "good"
but doesn't make their motives good. Big difference.I would agree
with this: "Civility is treating the other person with respect and assuming
THEY BELIEVE their motives are good."I agree with and admire
what DeMoss is trying to do. Way, waaay too much hatred expressed for others
these days. Go watch "Saving Private Ryan" and see what unfettered
hatred leads people, and nations, to do.
"If these points are going to be dredged up over and over again by the
Deseret News, can we PLEASE get a definitive list of them, so readers can
realistically judge their scale, their frequency, and their impact? "How many such incidents do there need to be before any single incident
is offensive to you? Are some number of attacks against property or persons
justified? What is that number?And what would your response be if I
were to use a similar argument attempting to minimize the seriousness of bias
motivated crimes against homosexuals?Isn't the whole premise being
"hate crime" laws that a crime committed against a person based on
some group membership is more serious because it is intended to target and
terrorize an entire group?How many LDS need to be assaulted on their
way to the temple, or have their property vandalized before you consider it a
serious crime? How many Catholic women assaulted merely for visibly wearing
Rosary and supporting one definition of marriage over another?Posts
such as yours convince me that for far too many "civility" is merely
the latest form of political correctness to silence opposition.
Without a balanced, equitable view of civility, then any moderation of comments
or limitations on viewpoints based on some comments being "uncivil"
becomes little more than a new name for the old political correctness.It is, admittedly, very difficult to be an unbiased judge. We all have our
opinions and views. It is easy to take offense at that with which we disagree.
It is easy to excuse that which rings true to our ears.And so
liberals are far more likely to notice and call out incivility on Fox News or
talk radio than they are in Huffington Post, on the part of Bill Moyers or
Michael Moore.On the other side, conservatives are far more tolerant
of Limbaugh and Coulter than they are of Bill Marher, Dan Rather, or
Carville.It becomes easy to label anything with which we disagree as
"incivil" as we see some doing here relative to defending the
definition of marriage, or exercising constitutional powers (Amd 21) to control
and limit alcohol sales.For "civility" to be achievable,
not only must we individually and unilaterally practice it, but we must also
call out those who abuse the term to silence their opposition.
This is a fantastic article. I applaud the author. I would like very much to
see the DesNews moderator adopt as their metric of "civility" the
definition given in this article: it is not civil to impute evil motives to your
opponent.Certainly name calling and foul language are not civil.
But I see far too many comments being allowed to be posted that viciously attack
motives, morality, devotion to God and country, and basic humanity. "Republicans hate the poor" is no less offensive than "Obama is
a traitor." But it seems that while the latter is most often
decried by both sides as inappropriate, the former too often passes as reasoned
political argument.If an opponent to socialized medicine is accused
of being greedy, no big deal. If he accuses his opponent of being lazy or
shiftless, that is suddenly a personal attack.In our personal
decisions, civility is indeed a person decision not dependent on the other side.
But when someone begins to limit what comments are permissible and
claims to limit only for reasons of "civility," then it is crucial
that a balanced, equitable definition of civility be employed.
"EastcoastcougAny group that seeks to set up their own as good and
all others bad...inspires hatred...violence...includ(ing) Mormons."Good members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do not see
others as bad, and themselves as exclusively good. There are many good people in
this world who are not LDS, and even some members who do. bad things. I'm sorry
someone gave you an impression otherwise; the church leaders and teachings
encourage us to seek anything that is praiseworthy. We are encouraged to donate
to United Way, if we want. United Way helps Catholic Charities. If we are good,
we are not the only good people.We have already endured much violence.
As a former missionary for the LDS church in the Bay Area, I came across one
church who had a Sunday School Class on how to discredit Mormons. One lady gave
me the 100 page plus manual which was used to demean, bash, and how to
prosalyte agains Mormons. She was very polite and was happy to share what she
had learned. I believe that all people should have the right to worship how when
and were they believe. Wouldn't that be a great civilization!
well it seems to me that other people have the sane right to their public
opinion that the Mormons do. by going door to door and expressing their opinion
just like when the LDS church went public against gay marriage the Mormons are
not the only people allowed to express their opinions in this country. ever hear
of the first Amendment ? the last time I checked anybody living in this country
has the absolute guarenteed and protercted right to speak out against any thing
they wish to. including religion
This was a very interesting article for me to research. If I was
understanding DeMoss correctly, it goes like this:One of the obstacles to
civility -- and you can sense it a little in a few of the comments -- is
thinking that civility is a two-way street. It works best that way, of course,
but the other guy doesn't have to be civil for me to be civil. Behind the
comments complaining about "the other guy" is the idea that civility
is weakness or compromise. It isn't a club you are putting down to be
defenseless against somebody with a club: "I'm not going to put down my
incivility club until they put down their incivility club."Civility isn't being all nicey nice. It isn't agreement. It isn't retreat. All
the people I interviewed were very strong in their positions. Civility is
treating the other person with respect and assuming their motives are good. If
former-gay Joe Dallas and gay-rights activist Cindi Love can do it, anybody can.
Anyone who thinks that attacks against Mormons, Mormonism, their property and
livelihoods have been few and far between over Prop 8 are in la-la land.And, no, I don't think using the phrase "la-la land" is
uncivil, but if you don't like it, I'll use another phrase: detached from
eastcoastcoug, Danbury, CT-- You've been reading my mind. Very well
Ridgely says it quite well: It seems like the DN is constantly rehashing a
small handful of isolated incidents to make it look like there's some ongoing
threat against Mormons concerning Prop. 8. Personally, I think it's far more
"uncivil" to actively deny a group of law-abiding citizens their
rights under that law, but that might just be me. If you enter the political
arena, you shouldn't get to cry I'm-being-oppressed every time someone publicly
disagrees with you (And just so you know, President Obama does NOT cry racism
every time someone argues with him. I just know someone here will mention
Americans are tired of being spun by our institutions. Why should we believe
this guy over the next?Politicians, now more than ever, live in a
fishbowl. Have you seen that list of the members of congress and their rap
sheets? They are not our best and brightest.Sometimes a call for civility
is really a request to avoid the hard questions.A simple question, like
"Mr. Candidate, why do you believe that illegal aliens should be given
amnesty?", is turned around as a racist remark from a rightwing
rabble-rouser.The real problem is not civility, but political correctness.
What this guy is all about is bemoaning the fact that his politicians can no
longer hide from their past or their true agenda.
The civility pledge started at the top with those who are most visible in the
public eye. Encouraging them to deal with the issues instead of making issues
of the person. Perhaps there needs to be some "grass roots" approach
to this issue. As a high school teacher I think it would be great to see some
kind of civility pledge program in the schools. I don't know which came fist,
public incivility or general disrespect on personal levels. However, this is a
wide spread problem, not just a problem with politicians. On the
public level, I have listened to many a campaign ad or speech and wondered what
issues were important to the candidate, because all I heard was how much better
they were than their opponent who was a bad, bad person. What a waste of time.
Then they get into office and spend our time talking about whether America is a
democracy or a republic and have to come back for special sessions to deal with
our real issues! $$$$
.....in the aftermath of California's Proposition 8, including vandalism of some
Mormon chapels and people losing their jobs.If these points are
going to be dredged up over and over again by the Deseret News, can we PLEASE
get a definitive list of them, so readers can realistically judge their scale,
their frequency, and their impact? In 2008 the media reported two
voluntary resignations (not firings) by the Director of the LA Film Festival,
and the Director of the California Musical Theater. Then nothing for three years
until Peter Vidmar voluntarily stepped down as the 2012 Chief of Mission.
Similarly there were several low level incidences of vandalism reported
immediately after the 2008 election, but since then nothing. Yet these events
keep being repackaged editorially as if they are constantly reoccurring and are
an imminent threat (leading to fear, outrage, defensiveness, and incivility on
both sides of the discussion).If you want informed, reasoned,
civility in political discourse, then it is imperative that news organizations
start with (and stick with) a baseline of ACTUAL facts, rather than a conflation
of editorial opinions and perceptions.
Excellent journalism; I especially like the Roger Staubach quote.
The word of God says, Esteem evil against no man. As the civility project tried
to bring out, we cannot think our opponant has evil intentions.The
word of God says, our leaders are deceived and go about deceiving others. The
solution is easy; give the leaders information on how to come to God's solution.
HERE is the power, putting God as the authority. He is God over all the earth
and has cross referenced His prophets to prove His word. (See 2 Nephi
29). If the project used the words "God" or "word of
God," that would make a person either ignore God or realize they have been
ignoring God. Examples of Civility:God is against gay
marriage because the people lose the greater blessing of having a child both
created. Relatives on both sides can rejoice in honor, without a secret ache or
embarassment for child, parents or relatives.Another example: God's
solution of a garden paradise lifestyle solves the many personal, national and
world problems we created with the employment lifestyle. We can end our big
deficits by turning back to land, with no polluting air, land, water and food
making young and old diseased.
This idea needs attention and the pledge needs to be resurrected. I took a
similar personal pledge many years ago. I have friends that I disagree with
strongly with whom I have wonderful debates and discussions. When I run into
someone who uses hate and anger, I have to walk away. I feel I am more effective
the way I am doing things than I ever would be joining those who are uncivil.
The last I knew, all politicians running in Utah that have to file with the Lt.
Governor's office voluntarily take a pledge of civility entitledFrom
the Utah Code: 20A-9-206"Each person seeking to become a
candidate for any elective office that is to be filled at the next election
shall be provided with a copy of the pledge of fair campaign practice"While we do have those that are mid-term nominated/appointed that don't
see this, I am not aware of very many that don't sign this in even-year
elections.If you look under Utah Elections, 2010 Candidates, under
each candidate, you will see copies of the hundreds of signed pledges, including
US Senate, US House, State Senate, State House, Governor, State School Board,
and the Governor. A quick spot check only found one person without one, a 3rd
party governor candidate.
Excellent article. I was listening to Limbaugh and these were his exact words.
All liberals are liars, therefore if you are a liberal you are a liar. How
ridiculous. The church has addressed this issue, many members appear to ignore
the counsel and continue to be uncivil. A good example is the church having to
cancel a fireside in Las Vegas due to security concerns. The speaker was
Senator Reid. People threatened to disrupt it. How pathetic. Being uncivil is
not patriotism, is just plain being ignorant. People have a right to form their
own opinions on issues. Unfortunately many feel a need to demonize and ridicule
others. I believe uncivility is about fear and ignorance. By the way I just
realized the world did not end as planned yesterday. What happened?
As soon as the Evangelical churches stop their classes focusing on Mormons as an
evil cult, we will see some civility. They have institutionalized hate in many
churches and it is no wonder their members come out so strong. It is in the same
vein as the Islamic mosques who teach hatred and inspire jihad in their patrons.
The only difference being that our US environment does not create quite the
level of desperation found in the Middle East.I also find troubling
the hatred encouraged by Atheists. According to many Atheists, religion is the
source of everything bad in the world, while all Atheists are rational, kind and
thoughtful people. ANY group that seeks to set up their own as "good",
and all others as "bad" are on the same road to inspiring hatred and
eventually violence. That includes Mormons, Evangelicals, Atheists.
I applaud the effort, appreciate the article, and recognize the value of the
work these gentlemen did. I would also suspect that others will hearken back to
their groundwork at some point, and that they will bear fruit at some level.