WhatsInItForMe,I AM old enough to remember.Even still,
Michigan lost 5 games before their bowl game! Spin it any way you want, that is
still 5 losses.I'm not suggesting that BYU didn't get what they
deserved. But I am pointing out that no other team won a National Championship
by beating an unranked team, who finished in the bottom half of their
conference, in the "Championship Game."
Most of you aren't old enough to remember.When BYU beat Michigan for
the National Championship, they got the props (what this article is about)
because the national voters knew that Michigan wasn't just ANY old 6-5 team.Why? Because Michigan had a fullback that was a holy terror to defenses.
When he was injured for several games that year, Michigan lost all of those
games. But when he was healthy, no Big 10 team could beat them.He
was healthy against BYU.The voters all knew this, AND there wasn't
any other undefeated team that year.You also have to look at what
BYU's injured (lame) QB did that game to realize how big of a win it was. He
couldn't evade defenders, but completed passes anyway because the O-line
protected him well enough against a quality Big 10 defense.'Nuff
Sweatpant:The only girls who thought they were the prettiest were
already at the prom. There were many who elected not to go and were not so
vain as to think association with the "cool" group would make them
better and the envy of all. There were those not invited and those that elected
not to go to that particular dance. Rather, they wanted to have the choice to do
want they want without having to bow to the wishes of the "cool"
bunch. Funny how they succeeded later.There will be lots of dances
and parties later, wait and see.
@wedgieI've posted on here many times that I am not sold on a
playoff instead of bowls. I actually like the bowls, have been to many, and
watch as many as I can every year. My issues with the bcs are that
it thinks it can declare a national champion while excluding about half of the
schools in D1. If they want to drop that charade and simply go back to the
previous bowl system I am fine with it. But if a playoff was instituted I would
be ok with that as well.
Captain Sweatpants "I don't know whether they would have gone
to the Rose Bowl if they had beaten the Buckeyes, but I do know that they
finished unranked and 6th in their conference."Then you don't
know enough about 1984 to form a valid opinion of Michigan.If
Michigan(5-3) had beaten Ohio State(6-2), Michigan would have tied Ohio State,
Purdue, and Illinois for the Big Ten championship, and having beaten Ohio State
and Illinois, Michigan would have won the tie-breakers to represent the Big Ten
in the Rose Bowl. Purdue didn't even play in a bowl game in 1984.In
1984, BYU rose from unranked (in the Top 20) to #8 IN TWO WEEKS! No team does
that without having already established their legitimacy. That legitimacy was
confirmed when BYU was selected concensus national champion by all five major
Skywalker says, "frankly, Michigan 1984 was a MUCH tougher opponent than
Pittsburgh 2004....Michigan would have won the Big Ten and would have been
playing in the Rose Bowl if the Wolverines hadn't lost their rivalry game at
Ohio State 6-21."I don't know whether they would have gone to
the Rose Bowl if they had beaten the Buckeyes, but I do know that they finished
unranked and 6th in their conference.And regarding your claim that
2004 Pitt's pre-Fiesta Bowl ranking "was a gift from the BCS," the AP
also "gifted" them with a top 20 ranking going into bowl season. TrueBlue says, "The only reason BYU wasn't ranked in the preseason
poll was because they were replacing Steve Young with Robbie Bosco; most of the
team from 1983 was back for 1984."Yet despite most of the
players returning from a 11-1, #7 ranked team, the polls left BYU unranked in
the preseason. Is that the "legitimacy" you were talking about from
the 1983 campaign?My two questions still stand.
BluCoug... what exactly is your point? The claim was that Utah beat two
nationally ranked teams to cap their perfect seasons in 2004 and 2008
(Pittsburgh and Alabama).You reply that they beat MWC teams, not
ranked teams. What are you talking about? One of two possibilities:1) You didn't understand his reference2) You thought he claimed
the nationally ranked teams were at the end of the reg season. You blast his
argument as weak because they played a MWC team, not a ranked out-of-conference
team... thus those finishes weren't impressive.Well, that MWC team
was BYU. Not showing a lot of respect for your own team there, pal.
@itchyFaulty logic itchy. We can just as easily say utah was
"lucky" that they were allowed into the bcs and that was only because
BYU had paved the way for them. In 1996 was was excluded from the precursor to
the BCS despite a 13-1 record and a top 10 ranking. Pressure was put onto the
system because of that and it was changed to the bcs system. hen in 2001 BYU was
"released" from BCS considereration despite being 12-0 and ranked in
the top 10. Once again pressure was applied to the BCS because of that and it
was again reformed to the current system that allowed utah to be invited 2 years
later.In otherwords utah was "lucky" that the system was
what it was when their 2004 season came along in exactly the same way BYU was
"lucky" the system was what it was in 1984. Without that
"luck" utah is not invited to the bcs and does not get the opportunity
to beat up on a terrible Pittsburgh team. Instead they play in the Liberty Bowl
against a team of probably the same quality as Pitt.
SkywalkerThanks for posting some interesting examples of past
champions. However, it doesn't change the fact that BYU's 1984 championship
would most likely have not happened if the currest BCS system existed back then.
Likewise, if the Utes 1998 season had occured with the way things were back in
1984, I strongly believe they too would have been awarded a championship.
Hence, the reason I stated that BYU was "lucky" while the Utes were
Captain Sweatpants "BYU's "legitimacy" from a very
good 1983 season got them this much - they were unranked in the 1984 preseason
poll."The only reason BYU wasn't ranked in the preseason poll
was because they were replacing Steve Young with Robbie Bosco; most of the team
from 1983 was back for 1984.As soon as BYU knocked off pre-season #3
Pittsburgh on the road, the Cougars quickly jumped from just outside the Top 20,
to 13th in the AP. The next week, BYU beat Baylor 47-13 and quickly jumped back
into the Top 10 at #8, only one place lower than they finished in 1983.That would never have happened if not for the legitimacy BYU had established
not only in 1983, but with all of these Top 20 Finishes leading up to 1984.1977 #201979 #131980 #121981 #131983 #7btw, BYU destroyed Washington 31-3 early the next season, and BYU was ranked
#9 in the final regular season poll in 1985, before losing to Ohio State 10-7 in
the Citrus Bowl and falling to #16 in the final poll.Legitimacy
Captain Sweatpants Frankly, Michigan 1984 was a MUCH tougher
opponent than Pittsburgh 2004.Pittsburgh's ranking was a gift from
the BCS, which panicked when BCS voters realized they were about to send an
unranked team to a BCS game. The 2004 Panthers were unranked until the final
week of the regular season, finished in a four-way tie for first in the 7-team
Big East, and were quickly bounced out of the Coaches Poll, barely finishing #25
in the AP poll, after losing badly to Utah.Michigan began the season
knocking off defending national champion Miami 22-14 and was ranked #3 in the
country before a rash of injuries derailed their national championship hopes.
Even so, Michigan would have won the Big Ten and would have been playing in the
Rose Bowl if the Wolverines hadn't lost their rivalry game at Ohio State 6-21.
By the time Michigan played BYU in the Holiday Bowl, the Wolverines were healthy
and back to playing like they were at the beginning of the season.Washington, the team that finished 2nd to BYU in 1984, beat Michigan 20-11.
BYU beat Michigan 24-17.
itchy"BYU lucked out in that in 1984 all you had to do was be
the only team left standing and you were automatically awarded the
championship."If that were true, how do you explain these Final
AP Polls?:1960 #1 Minnesota(8-1), #2 Mississippi(9-1)1965 #1
Alabama(9-1-1), #2 Michigan State(10-1)1966 #1 Notre Dame(9-0-1), #2
Michigan State(9-0-1), #3 Alabama(9-0)1968 #1 Ohio State(10-0), #2 Penn
State(11-0)1969 #1 Texas(11-0), #2 Penn State(11-0)1975 #1
Oklahoma(11-1), #2 Arizona State(12-0)1982 #1 Penn State(11-1), #2
SMU(11-0-1)1993 #1 Florida State(12-1), #4 Auburn(11-0)1994 #1
Nebraska(13-0), #2 Penn State(12-0)1997 #1 Michigan(12-0), #2
Nebraska(13-0)2003 #1 USC(12-1), #2 LSU(13-1)Quite obviously
having the best record or an undefeated season isn't the only criteria being
chosen #1.In 1974, there were FIVE undefeated teams.Utah
fans wouldn't get much sympathy from Penn State fans for being undefeated but
not winning a NC.
hohum,I think I'm following your analogy.The "cool
kids" is the Pac 10.The cheerleader who didn't go to the prom
with your buddy is Texas.Utah is the "filler" date that
allowed your friend (Pac 10) to save face.What about that girl who
had convinced herself that she was the prettiest girl in school, but didn't get
invited to the prom? She played records in her basement, and claimed that her
party was much better than the prom. Who is she?
It's obvious that the Utes 2 undefeated seasons were much more impressive than
BYU's from back in the dark ages. Unfortunately, the timing of when Utah
accomplished it stinks because there was no way the current system is set up for
a mid-major to ever win the national championship. Remember, the Utes were the
ONLY undefeated team left in 2008 and were still denied the championship. If
the current system existed in 1984 then I guarantee you that BYU would have been
on the outside looking in too. BYU lucked out in that in 1984 all you had to do
was be the only team left standing and you were automatically awarded the
championship. At least the Utes are in the Pac-12 now and will legitimately
have a shot at the championship if they ever go undefeated again. BYU on the
other hand has experienced its one and only championship ever unless A. the
current corrupt BCS system changes or B. they are invited to a BCS conference
themselves. It's a sad fact and every Utah fan knows it and any BYU fan with
any degree of intelligence knows it too.
TheSportsAuthority,Those are all good points. But, surprise,
surprise, I see it a little differently.BYU's "legitimacy"
from a very good 1983 season got them this much - they were unranked in the 1984
preseason poll. Their win over highly-regarded Pitt to open the season
springboarded them to #13, and got them into the hunt for the national
championship.I agree, "in 1984, NOBODY had a more legitimate
claim to being #1 than BYU." But anybody, please, answer these two
questions - Has any college football national champion ever had an easier path
than the 1984 Cougars? If so, who?
"But it really doesn't matter because no matter how you want to spin it
being the national champion is better than finishing 2nd or 4th."Ducky,Hmmm. I thought you and all kewg fans think anything less
than a playoff systems is a fraud...that's all I hear and read about on the
lDsNews. Yet you seem very confortable with that little "fraudulent"
Utah'95Yes, your facts are correct, but you left some other facts
out:BYU finished 1984 on a 24-game winning streak that included
back-to-back Top 7 finishes and two roads wins over Top 15 teams in 1983.And yes, there is legitimacy carried over from one season to the
next.BYU impressed enough voters with its body of work over two
years to not only be voted #1 AP and #1 Coaches.Utah finished #4/#5
in 2004 and #2/#4 in 2008.BYU 1984 beat 4 regular season opponents
with winning records, including road wins at Hawaii(7-4), always a very tough
play to play in the 80's, at Air Force(8-4), and at Utah(6-5-1).Utah
2004 only beat 3 regular season opponents with winning records, including road
wins at Wyoming(7-5) and at New Mexico(7-5).Throw out the extra game
BYU played against Utah State(1-10) and BYU's opponents were a combined 60-75;
Utah's were a combined 62-75.And the most important fact: In 1984, NOBODY had a more legitimate claim to being #1 than BYU.
Duckhunter,Utah'95 laid out objective information, gave credit to
the Cougars, and concluded his post with his opinion. I don't know if every
opinion equals a "spin."Here's my opinion (or spin, if you
prefer):The 2008 Utes played the toughest schedule of the three. To
their credit, they found ways to win several games that they shouldn't have,
then beat down a legitimate top 5 team in the Sugar Bowl.The 1984
Cougars and 2004 Utes played weak schedules. But the fact that they met a
ranked opponent in their bowl game suggests that they played the more
challenging schedule. The Big East Champion 2004 Pitt team was ranked, the 1984
Wolverines weren't. It's that simple.The 2004 Utes were better than
Utah's 2008 team, but it's hard to "prove" that since they played a
weaker schedule (67 vs. 56, according to Sagarin).I can't find any
information about strength of schedule for the 1984 season. I doubt it would be
tougher than either of the Ute schedules listed above.But most
importantly, you're right, "being the national champion is better than
finishing 2nd or 4th." Congratulations, Cougars!
How was utah's 2004 season any tougher than BYU's 1984 season? How is beating an
8-3 team from a weak conference in your bowl game any better than beating a 6-5
team from a good conference?But it really doesn't matter because no
matter how you want to spin it being the national champion is better than
finishing 2nd or 4th.
I can't believe I am getting sucked in to this tired, childish argument AGAIN,
but I'll try a different angle.The rankings listed reflect where
opponents were in the FINAL RANKINGS (be honest Cougar fans, beating #3 at the
time Pittsburgh means nothing when they go on to finish the season 3-8):2008 Utes:#25 BYU#18 Oregon State#7 TCU#6
AlabamaBeat #4 (at the time), SEC runner-up, 12-1 Alabama in the Sugar
BowlThe Utes finished the season 13-0, ranked #22004
Utes:#25 Pittsburgh"receiving votes" Texas
A&MBeat #19 (at the time), Big East Champion, 8-3 Pittsburgh in the
Fiesta BowlThe Utes finished the season 12-0, ranked #41984 Cougars:Beat zero ranked teamsI don't know if any of
BYU's opponents finished in the "receiving votes" categoryBeat
unranked, Big 10 6th place, 6-5 Michigan in the Holiday BowlThe
Cougars finished the season 13-0, ranked #1Three awesome feats - any
team that completes their season undefeated deserves to puff out their
chests.Congrats to the Cougars for their National Championship.
Utah's undefeated campaigns, however, were against tougher opponents.
Utah State is 6-21 lifetime in the NCAA tournament:2011 0-1 Lost to
Kansas State, 73-68 2010 0-1 Lost to Texas A&M, 69-53 2009 0-1
Lost to Marquette, 58-57 2006 0-1 Lost to Washington, 75-61 2005 0-1
Lost to Arizona, 66-53 2003 0-1 Lost to Kansas, 64-61 2001 1-1
Defeated Ohio State, 77-68Lost to UCLA in second round, 75-50 2000
0-1 Lost to Connecticut, 75-67 1998 0-1 Lost to Maryland, 82-68 1988
0-1 Lost to Vanderbilt, 80-77 1983 0-1 Lost to Iowa, 64-59 1980 0-1
Lost to Clemson, 76-73 1979 0-1 Lost to USC, 86-67 1975 0-1 Lost to
Montana, 69-63 1971 0-1 Lost to Brigham Young, 91-82 1970 2-1
Defeated UTEP, 91-81Defeated Santa Clara, 69-68Lost to UCLA, 101-79
1964 1-2 Defeated Arizona State, 92-90Lost to San Francisco,
64-58Lost to Seattle U, 88-78 1963 0-1 1962 1-2 1939 1-1
I may be mistaken, but didn't USU win 2 or 3 games in the NCAA in the late
90's... I think that is more than 1 since 1970
Please no more BCS stuff. Doesn't mean a thing, all in your heads. Makes me
think of a time in high school. A friend of mine asked one of the cheerleaders
to the home coming dance. She said she would rather not, so he asked another
girl who accepted. Talking to the girl at the dance she told me, she was glad to
be there with all of the "cool" kids but didn't feel like she belonged
because my friends first choice turned him down and she was second. Her thought
was my friend needed a date to save face and she was it.Sound
familar? Will she ever convince herself she was more than a filler. She tries to
this day, but still has that "second choice" mentality.U
shouldn't keep trying to convince everyone that they are worthy and the Y isn't.
Enjoy the ride and pocket the money. Who cares if you win anything, you still
get your money from the others. It seems that is the most important thing as
pointed out in the posts I have read.Hooo Hummmm
More ute "fan" assertions that it is better to be 2nd than 1st. I'm
sure you have everyone else convinced. LOL
Jealous USpin it however you want to make you feel better about
yourselves, butNational Championship > a dozen BCS winsOne is the epitome of major college football.The others are only
2nd best, or worse.There have been lots of undefeated teams through
the years that didn't win a national championship. What makes U think your
undefeated seasons were anymore special than all of the other undefeated teams
that didn't win the ultimate prize?Fact: If U had really been as
good as you think it was, the U would have finished #1.Fact: If BYU
had really been as bad as you pretend they were, the Cougars wouldn't have
finished #1.Your jealous whining about "respect" isn't
going to change the fact that U weren't "respected" enough to be voted
"They beat two Nationally ranked teams to cap thier undefeated
seasons."Two ranked team in the MWC, not outside the
conference. Your argument is very weak... beat some tough and ranked to start
the season (not a Weber State or a 3-9 Michigan team) maybe just maybe the utes
would have more credibility.
"They did everything they had to do which is win every single game. The
exact same thing byu did nearly 30 years ago"KH,Actually Utah did more. They beat two Nationally ranked teams to cap thier
undefeated seasons.BYU played a 6-6 team ( same as last years UTEP)
that was not even close to being ranked in the top 60. I might add BYU had to
stage a late combacke to pull out the win.
Lonestar,"Better 30 years ago, than NEVER!"Utah actually accomplished what byu did (go undefeated) in 2004 and 2008 which
is a lot more recent than nearly 30 years ago. Just because Utah wasn't crowned
National Champions isn't their fault. They did everything they had to do which
is win every single game. The exact same thing byu did nearly 30 years ago. Here's a few more blasts from the past for you:Burton
blocked the kick48-24 on the way to a 2nd undefeated season52-21 on
the way to Utah's first BCS bowlPAC 12 invitationYour comment
on byu winning 3 of last 5 is ridiculous. Watch this, I can spin the stats too.
Utah has won 6 of the last 9. Utah has also won 53 of the last 86 or something
KHBetter 30 years ago, than NEVER!Here's a few more
blasts from the past:Harline is still open4th and 18George is still runningand the Pièce de résistance56-6BYU has still won 3 of the last 5, soon to be 4 of the last 6
JNA, Let it go man. It was almost 30 years ago.
@Chris B,And yet I still cannot find that National Championship
banner anywhere in RES. I looked and looked and looked and then there it was,
but to my surprise it is in Provo at LES. Imagine that.
Thanks for mentioning Jimmer. I have only heard his name 10 times in the past
week and quite frankly, I miss him. GO Jimmer. Go Cougs!
LonestarRunner, Are you obsessed with Utah? I didn't even mention
Utah in my post. I just pointed out that it is silly to use the "if"
card.I never said Utah coulda, shoulda, woulda about anything. You
said it. Now, since you brought up football information for the
University of Utah let me give you one more piece of information: Utah 17byu 16
KH"Coulda, Shoulda, Woulda.....but didn't. Anybody can play the
"if" card and say that their team could have won it all in any
situation."For example: Utah Coulda, Shoulda,
Woulda... won the 2004 and 2008 NCs, IF not for the BCS.Utah Coulda,
Shoulda, Woulda... won a Heisman, IF the Utes had ever had a decent QB.Utah Coulda, Shoulda, Woulda... left BYU in their dust last June, IF Utah
really had a superior football program.
@HedgieUSC I'm sure will be equally unimpressed with Utah come Sept 10th
especially at the huge numbers of dyed in the wool utey fans who show up to see
the game. They'll sell more tickets to Southern California BYU fans who will be
rooting for Utah than actual ute fans.
The Rock,You do realize that by using your logic...BYU has won 35
straight football National Championships.Like the PAC12, I'm not
@ The Rock,Coulda, Shoulda, Woulda.....but didn't. Anybody can play
the "if" card and say that their team could have won it all in any
situation. For example: The Jazz would have won the NBA
Championship in 98 if Malone had hit his free throws. The fact is he
didn't hit his free throws and the bulls won it.
If is the biggest work in the English language. Gunna use it anyway.BYU and Florida went into overtime in the NCAA tourney. Brandon would have
made far more difference than the one point required in regulation to have put
BYU over the top.Florida went into overtime against Butler. I have
a suspicion that a BYU team with Brandon Davies would have won that game but
there is no way to tell.Who knows what would have happened against
UConn in the finals. A Kimba - Jimmer match-up would have been amazing. BYU was not that far from taking it all in the NCAA tournament. When you have a tournament there is no need to depend on the opinion of
the pundits. Performance speaks for itself.The present BCS series
leave one at the mercy of the pundits. Matching Boise State against TCU was a
I enjoy Brad Rock's Dave Barryesque writing style. He is spot on with his
Jimmer Fredette! All that needs to be said in explaining this article!
"My opinion is that not only are Utah teams treated respectably in the
national view, they're in some cases treated BETTER THAN THEY DESERVE!WHY AM I SHOUTING?"Did my comment make it through the filter?
No mention of Real Salt Lake? RSL is regarded as the best or second best MLS
team by most media sources, coaches and players (Henry called them the best in
the league). One writer for ESPN soccernet even had them 10th in his world
rankings, hard to believe since their entire team salary is about a 10th of what
many Euro teams will pay for in transfer fees for a single player. RSL and
Jason Kreis have gotten mountains of respect from all kinds of people. Good
team that is exciting to watch and gets a lot of press for it.
I agree with Chris B. The BCS wins (in 2004, 2008) are the only reason the Utes
only slid 18 spots in two weeks. However, has any other team in the history of
the NCAA fallen as far as quickly as they did? I hate to think what would have
happened without the BCS wins. This is an interesting article. I agree
that both the Cougars and the Utes have probably been given more national
respect than they deserve solely based on their performance in recent years.
But I don't agree that the respect is unwarranted. BYU has a long history of
dominating middle tier conferences (WAC, MWC). Utah, has a recent history of
impressive wins against really good teams and a long history of being pretty
decent. I expect both schools will do well in the coming years even if they
experience some growing pains. The Jazz on the other hand...
Jimmer helped the high rankings. Multiple bcs games, multiple bcs wins, and a
bcs invite justified the utah football rankings