@PaganAgreed! Things do happen when people pray!! It's called
coincidental false residual affective disorder which is a result you assume came
from God without evidence that it really did....but there is a Dial-a-Prayer for
atheists now. You call up and it rings and rings but nobody answers!!@JMPlease tell me where I can apply to be a paid anti-Mormon!
Since you always accuse people of such....I might as well get paid for it
whether I am or not! I belong to no ~anti~ organization. My post are purely my
own opinion which I have a right to express whether you like it or not!
Disagreement does not necessarily make you an ~anti~!! If I am an anti....than
so are you! Afterall....you disagree with atheism, agnosticism, and anything
that disagrees with your religion, right? Doesn't that make you an anti??? Think
about it.....and then look in the mirror! Your accusations are not helping your
The Book of Mormon Testifies that Jesus is the very Christ. In doing so it lays
down clearly the plan for us as God's children, us. The spirit will testify of
its truthfulness as you read it by filling you with, peace, joy, and you will be
filled with light. I know this to be the truth. There is darkness in this
world and there is light. Light's source is Jesus Christ and this earthly
experience is not just chance because two asteroids collided and we landed at
the perfect distance from the sun and here we are. This earthly life's purpose
is to test us to see what we as individuals will choose. Will we seek, find,
and live by truth, or will we follow darkness, and set ourselves up as the God
of our own world and follow the whispers of the adversary telling us we need no
one but ourselves. We are not smart enough to create our own way! We pick one
After many discussions with DN anti-Mormons I can say they seem insincere (see
my last comment pg3), but only God knows the heart. I cant judge Vanka, Vanka
cant judge Bill. I can say the BoM promises published by the LDS
Church organization include several covenant clauses which put responsibility
upon the sincere truth seeker. God keeps His parts of His contracts with me. I seek long, nourish the seeds, and find. But, as I've oft explained, He, and
His Church, do not intend or promise to drag anyone up the Holy Mountain. If you
wish to obtain, you must climb. If you dont obtain, for whatever
reason, the personal responsibility clause makes it unfair to go about all day
discouraging, mocking, sowing doubtful seeds and pointing great spacious fingers
at those who are sincerely holding tight the Word through the darkness. True, I cant question if Vanka was sincere during those many years of
seeking, reading, living, attending Church, praying, etc. Nor can he fairly
discourage others from seeking, or fairly question ill was more sincere, or what
I have found about God. For me, God keeps His promises always. I sometimes fail,
but if I sincerely
One thing that is consistent in my experiences with organizations like the LDS
church, the Scientologist church, and the JW church; if things don't go the way
they promise you they will, it is your fault. You are are in error. You made a
mistake. You are not worthy. Emperor's New Clothes anybody?
Vanka is a great guy and honest. But im not sure if Vanka is from Provo, Canada
or similiar to TheVanka, or why some spend so much time attacking others faith
with many different stories. I dont know if they are activists, or paid to post
anti-Mormon propaganda or "destroy the Utah Brand" like those I met on
Tribhate, who want Mormons bombed, eliminated, exterminated etc (all things
really said). Or if some hate Mormons for fun or??? ; ) I do know
Vanka gives no evidence for his faiths, and some friendly fulltime anti-Mormons
recently challenged me to give BoM evidences, and Vanka also. I
agreed, and, not similiar to schoolyard bullies, some quickly cried insanity and
proudly ran away, like Pythons' Sir Robin. (This Python isnt similar to Monte
Python. Two Sir Robins, yes, both ran away, true, but there were no anti-Mormons
in his Movie, although I have no idea about the movie, yet everyone quotes
Pythons' grail movie anyway, which proves Sir Robin isnt a similar name to vague
Sir Robin and running away is circumstantial unless we prove what they ran from,
because it had nothing to do with Davinci, except the grail...: ) : ) : )
Bill - a couple of things. The quote you quoted from vanka about the book of
mormon, it in no way attacks you personally. He is stating that he doesn't
believe it and it is irrational to do so. I am not saying he hasn't ever posted
something rude, we are here on this thread talking about this article. You
should not be rude and arrogant just because somebody else is, that is
rediculous. Next - you stated that god can't give one person one answer
and one person another different answer. That is untrue. God tells millions of
people every day by the holy ghost that the catholic church is true, that the
baptist church is true, that the methodist church is true, that the mormon
church is true. If the holy ghost can speak to a person so clearly, then why are
millions and even billions of people in disagreement on what is true? Doesn't
sound like god is giving everybody the same answer to me. And I don't think that
you can say that your 'feeling' is more valid than the other religions
'feelings' that would be pretty arroagant to assume. Think about it.
To Arizona and Enough is Enough: You said I was rude and arrogant. Fred Vader
made a comment that maybe you should look at other posts such as this from
another thread. "Believing in consecrated oil, priesthood
power, the 3 Nephites, and the Whitehorse Prophecy are the Mormon equivalents,
and are every bit as "superstitious" and irrational."There are many others I could post. I have been extremely nice to Vanka but
have seen her/him post numerous things that are rude, arrogant and totally
irresponsible yet it gets past the censors.The above post that since the
Lord didn't answer their prayer led them to believe in no GOD or anything.
Answers are given to each and every prayer. The decision to receive it is up to
the individual. The person either respects the answer they get or they don't.
Some say the Lord told me the Book of Mormon is not true. This can't be true
because the Lord won't tell one via the Holy Ghost it is and another it isn't.
The Lord knows what is in our heart and whether we will accept the truth or not.
@In my humble opinion"So is are the Illiad and the Oddysee. So
is Shakespere. Doesn't make them the Word of God. "Oh, I'm not
saying anything based on something we know is historical is the word of God, I'm
saying that if something were to be considered the Word of God, historical
accuracy would be something that would be useful in helping determine that it
'No matter how many people pray, no matter how sincerely they pray, no matter
how worthy the prayer, nothing ever happens.' - Joggle | 12:24 p.m.
Oh. I dunno about that. I think that some believe something may
happen to them. i.e. if a person lost a leg and prayed for a leg and found a
crutch to help them walk, they might take that crutch as a blessing from the
devine. Did I say you should think so? No. Your belief
is fine, when it stops at you. Taking action to help others, based on said
belief is great. My example? I found a King James Bible on my way to
Pride. My mom said it was a 'sign' that I should go back to
church. I pointed out to her, I wouldn't have FOUND that bible if I
didn't go to Pride. We've been good ever since. I
compare faith to Monty Python and the Holy Grail. The scene where King Author
tells the pesants about the lady of the lake. The pesent replies:
'If I said that some watery tart threw a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!'
@Enough is enough and In Arizona:Rather than beat up on Bill or feel
the need to apologize on his behalf to Vanka, perhaps you may want to check out
more of Vanka's posts on other articles past and present. He/she posts under
multiple names, he/she always feigns offense, and more often than not is guilty
of being just "self-righteous, insolen[t] and arrogan[t]" as you are
accusing Bill of being.Personally, I take most posters
"offenses", both towards others, or towards the church, with a grain
of salt. Vanka and Bill are both big boys/girls and can easily handle the back
and forth they constantly engage in. No need to apologize for the church, for
Bill, or for Vanka and his/her multiple on-line personalities.
No matter how many people pray, no matter how sincerely they pray, no matter how
worthy the prayer, nothing ever happens. If we pray for anything that is
impossible -- for example, regenerating an amputated leg...it never happens. We
all know that. If we pray for anything that is possible, the results of the
prayer will unfold in exact accord with the normal laws of probability or
according to the desired needs or preferences of the person praying. What we are
seeing instead is a simple coincidence or the natural effects of self-convincing
minds. There are reasons why many people CAN'T believe the BoM no matter how
sincere they are in seeking confirmation. In your mind, you will start coming up
with a thousand excuses or reasons why a prayer hasn't been answered because to
acknowledge your own mind or emotions have deceived you would be a difficult
admission when you are strongly influenced by your religion and/or personal
needs or desires.Most people believe in God for a reason and that
reason can rule out in advance anything to the contrary. Many want to believe
though, but would feel untrue to themselves without personally
@In Arizona Thank you! Again, Vanka, peace and love to
you. Thank you for reading The Book of Mormon and for your comments. Bill from
Nebraska and others are rude, not what I have found the LDS mainstream to be.
There is nothing to be gained by Bill's (and others') display of
self-righteousness, insolence and arrogance...but there is much to be lost in
friendship, understanding, working for the common good, etc.The Book
of Mormon and LDS doctrines work for me. If those beliefs are not for you or
someone else, so be it. May you be blessed along life's journey.
Bill from Nebraska does not represent the majority of the LDS church (hopefully)
in his poor missionary work. His rude attitude in saying it is your fault for
not getting an answer does not reflect the truth. The truth is there are many
people of other faiths that have received an answer that their church is right.
So, Bill does that make their answers about their faith any less valid than your
answer that the Book of Mormon is true? I don't think so. Truth is in the eye of
the seeker. Facts never change, oh wait if you study mormon history the leaders
are constantly changing the facts. How can the 'one true church' hide its own
history? just a thought.
Vanka, don't pay any attention to Bill or others who are saying it is your fault
for not getting an answer. I respect your desire and effort in reading a book
that is not your religion. I hope you picked up a few principles that can help
an already good person like yourself. The majority of the LDS members don't
judge or criticize you.
'And if I were to pray about it, sincerely, and get a different answer, that it
was in fact not true? What then?' - RanchHand | 7:18 a.m. RanchHand,
I think the message some of the 'devout' are trying to say: 'Pray
about it.' 'But I didn't get the answer.' 'Pray about
it.' 'But I didn't get the answer.' Is really: 'Pray until you agree with it.'
Rifleman,Not believing in god was the result of not receiving an
answer, not the cause.
Re: RanchHand | 7:18 a.m. April 20, 2011 "btw, I've read the book,
numerious times, in two languages. It still doesn't make it true."Most folks who have have read the Book of Mormon "numerous times in two
languages" are missionaries who served in a foreign country. A percentage
of that group leave the Church upon returning home for various reasons.
"Anyone who reads the Book of Mormon with the intention to know whether or
not it is really true will come away with a testimony of its truthfulness. Pray
to know and then it comes. "---And if I were to pray about it,
sincerely, and get a different answer, that it was in fact not true? What
then?Many of you need to look up the term: "a priori". There is
a ton of arrogance in the comments here and that is very offputting to
non-mormons.btw, I've read the book, numerious times, in two
languages. It still doesn't make it true.
Re: The Vanka | 10:01 p.m. April 19, 2011 "I say there is no god to
BE a "respecter of persons"."How can anyone possible
expect to receive an answer from a god they don't believe in.God
allows the sun to rise and set on both the good and the evil, allows nature to
take it's course, and judges His children based on how they deal with the
challenges they encounter.
God's plan is not something to be deduced by logic alone, It requires revelation
from God. -- Neal A. Maxwell
Atl134, "The Bible is at least based on historical areas that we have
evidence existed and many people that we know existed. Plus, let's just say
"God took the plates away" isn't very convincing to people."So is are the Illiad and the Oddysee. So is Shakespere. Doesn't make
them the Word of God. The Bible and Book of Mormon contain Christ's teaching,
which when read and applied, change the reader.
I was born atheist, was introduced to Christianity as a child and felt deeply
that religion was like the fairy tales I heard at the same time. I became an
agnostic, but had a desire to know if God existed. I studied religion and
explored various belief systems and found out I have a complete absence of a
belief that there is a deity. No amount of reading the Bible or BoM....or any
other text will change my mind. I think it's illogical to believe some book is
true before you read it. If a holy_book is true....it should be believable on
its own without requiring you to believe first. The Mormon way to determine
whether a particular claim is true or not is inherently flawed. Based upon
feelings and bereft of logic, the method can only ever render a positive answer.
This is circular reasoning. First, after assuming (expecting) the BoM to be
true, one is to then ask God to reveal that it is true. So to establish the
proof of this book, one must first accept it to be true! Such logic is
worthless, but is typical of the subjective nature of Mormonism.
Vanka,I'm sorry for the unkind comments you have received. My
fellow church members should know better. Peace be with you.
Rifleman,"Is god a respector of persons?"You
tell me.Apparently your god either caused or stood idly by while
tsunamis and earthquakes destroyed the lives of half a million innocent people,
men women and children, who had done nothing to deserve a "death
sentence".Meanwhile, your god is blamed for prospering the
United States of America, including all the "sinners" in Las Vegas,
New Orleans, and downtown Salt Lake City. Bad people succeed and prosper all the
time. Horrible things happen to good people all the time. Little children are
washed to sea in "acts of God".Is your god a respecter of
persons? Look around you at the evidence, then tell me what answer makes sense
to you.And if god is a respecter of persons in very fact, yet the
"scriptures" say he is not, shall you dismiss the evidence and reality
before your eyes, or dismiss the scriptures as "true"?I
say there is no god to BE a "respecter of persons". And if there is no
god to respect anyone, that is all the more reason why we must respect everyone.
John 10:27: A great and wise man once said..."My sheep hear my
voice, and I know them, and they follow me"If the Book of
Mormon is true, then it is according to the voice of that great and wise man,
and He will in good time make it evident to all. If it is not true,
then He will do likewise.In the mean time: If a book makes you a
better person, read it, if not find one that does
@RiflemanTechnically, millions have *claimed* to have received an
authentic god-produced spiritual witness that it is true. There is no way for us
to confirm whether it was an actual revelation or not. The data is subjective.
It's impossible to get at.
Re: Vanka | 8:48 p.m. April 19, 2011 "I did not get an answer
confirming the truth of the BOM or the LDS Church."Millions of
people have read the BOM and gained an testimony of it's truthfulness. How is
it that some receive and some don't? Is God a respecter of persons?
I am thankful for the Book of Mormon. I was formally an atheist/agnostic, had a
desire to know if God existed, and if this was His true church. I received a
clear answer that the Book of Mormon was scripture. The teachings of the gospel
of Jesus Christ have changed my life dramatically. I have since had even more
dramatic witnesses of the reality of Jesus Christ, this church, and His gospel.
The Book of Mormon is a test-----to see if one really believes the Bible or not.
attentive,I really, truly, prayed to KNOW.I did not pray
for a "sign".I did not get an answer confirming the truth
of the BOM or the LDS Church.
I often wonder if the Book of Mormon would be more popular if it weren't always
touted first for its super-natural claims of coming forth. For instance, it is a
strong work--an epic really--that highlights universal human themes. I have not
seen it published in a form that appeals to readers' literary interests first,
but always as something to pray about as a way into the LDS church. I think many
people--even if they never have an interest in Mormonism as the
"truth" would enjoy and benefit from reading it. Many potential
readers seem to be turned off because they associate it with missionaries trying
to convert them, and that may be a barrier for them against taking interest.
"I don't understand how someone who has a total faith in the Bible will not
accept the Book of Mormon as true and scripture."The Bible is
at least based on historical areas that we have evidence existed and many people
that we know existed. Plus, let's just say "God took the plates away"
isn't very convincing to people.
Yanka: If you really, truly prayed to KNOW, then you would have gotten a real
answer that it IS true. If you prayed for a SIGN, then you were trying to
I have read the Book of Mormon and have received an answer. That it was true.
However, after much research, I have concluded that I could only
guess what an authentic spiritual confirmation is. It's not entirely honest for
me to say, "yes I have just received a personal revelation from a god"
because I have no frame of reference. I have no prior knowledge. I only have
blind faith that what others say is true - that the spirit is this or that.While, the subjectivity of the experiment isn't necessarily a problem
(even the scientific method is subjective), the fact that the data is also
subjective is the problem. No where else in life can we claim objective
knowledge based on subjective data - and the same applies to prayer. I've been told repeatedly that recognizing the Spirit takes practice. But this
assumes we have a reliably way to distinguish authentic revelations from human
produced feelings or thoughts.As far as I know, there is no way to
tell if a revelation is indeed from an external being or not.This is
one of the many reasons why I left religion. I'm finally at peace.
Bill,Please review the history of the Salem Witch Trials.In that astounding history of religion gone very wrong is the same reasoning
as you find in Moroni's Promise, and is represented in your comments.How many people have to be falsely accused of sin, insincerity, pride, and all
the other things of which you have accused me - without basis whatsoever -
before religionists wake up and see the fascism and error of that thinking?It is truly dangerous doctrine.
I know for fact that those who really has real intent to know if the Book of
Mormon is true can and will receive an answer. My answer is no different than
what President Hinckly has stated. I don't understand how someone who has a
total faith in the Bible will not accept the Book of Mormon as true and
scripture. Vanka, you have proven to be even more arrogant because all I have
said is that I know the answer comes that the Lord answers all prayers. The
problem is that so many expect the answer their way and not in the way the Lord
answers them.I've seen the Book of Mormon change lives and I've seen
the worst people change. I've seen confirmed atheist who have read the Book of
Mormon change to being a Christian. Vanka all you have proven is that those who
are anti-Christ can and will not accept the answers as they come to them. If
you go nothing it is your fault and yours alone. The promise is real. I stand
with my first stand.
Bill puts bluntly what the church essentially implies: "Failure to receive
it any other way is the fault of the individual not the promise." Whether
this is true or not, your going to alienate a lot of people with that attitude.
Bill,It is people like you, with your arrogant and demeaning
attitude toward everyone who does not see things the way you do, that testifies
to me there is not god, that the LDS Church is not what it claims to be, and the
BOM is not "true".Thank you for confirming my
If J.R.R. Tolkien put something like Moroni's promise at the end of the Lord of
the Rings it wouldn't make the books true. So before we go about the whole
business of using Moroni's promise to make an argument that someone didn't try
enough or ignored a message... don't we first have to establish whether or not
the Book of Mormon (and by extension Moroni's promise) is even true in the first
Vanka: I didn't call you a liar. If you took that way then maybe you should
look more carefully to yourself. I know that the truth comes as it is mentioned
in the Book of Mormon. Failure to receive it any other way is the fault of the
individual not the promise. That is plain and simple. I don't need your
respect but I do know the promise is true. I don't just believe it I know.I also know that when one says they did everything the promise says,
that is not true. Your answer came, you just didn't get it the way you expected
to get it. That is the truth of the whole situation. The fact of how you have
in the past belittled those who believe and have called us liars for saying so
is you calling the kettle black. The answer came, you just weren't humble
enough to receive it.
@Bill in Nebraska"What you said is not true. You say you did
everything that Moroni says which is to read it and with REAL INTENT to know if
it is true."Though your statement can only be true if indeed
the Book of Mormon and Moroni's promise is true. Frankly I don't
think Moroni's promise or the Book of Mormon is true (kind of an obvious
motivator for why I'm inactive). But let's take my best friend as an example.
She's an LDS member who was engaged to a Lutheran and they delayed their
marriage for a couple years because of this religion thing. I'm pretty sure he
was sincere in his reading of it (heck, I'm sure at least at times he wanted an
affirmative answer to make it easier) but he still got nothing. They did end up
eventually getting married though they still are of different faiths.
@ Paganand estimates put the number of books sold from the Goosebumps
series at about 350 million worldwide. Looking up stats is fun!I
don't believe the Book of Mormon to be true due to the number of copies printed.
Truth is truth, whether one person or six billion believe it. I can see how
you think the article might insinuate the importance/truth of the Book of Mormon
based on an impressive number, but we don't all do that. The Book of Mormon
changes lives one at a time, and I think that's the most impressive thing about
it, not one hundred and fifty million copies printed.
The book of Mormon and the Koran have similar life story's. The Life of Mohammad
and the life of Joseph Smith are very similar. Joe
Doesn't it teach in the BOM charity, compassion and how we are not to judge
others unrighteously? Lots of judging going on here, at least that's my
Thank you, rjpkp. My thoughts stated more succinctly. Love and respect are so
much more powerful than judgement.
Bill,With all due respect (if any), it is extremely presumptuous and
rude of you to not only call me a liar, but to claim you know anything about
what I felt, intended, expected, or ignored in my experience with investigating
the LDS Church and the BOM.I am telling you I did everything (and I
mean everything) required by "Moroni's promise" and I did it for
years, and I got nothing.It is extremely off-putting when LDS play
your game: tell investigators there is something wrong with THEM if they don't
get "the right answer".Let me repeat my "beyond a
shadow of a doubt" testimony: I got nothing.
I'm LDS, with a testimony of the Book of Mormon. My wife and I read it daily,
and it blesses us individually and as a couple.That said, I am
disappointed by the posture some are taking toward Vanka, like Kramer's Corner.
Vanka stated his/her viewpoint/experience, and you projected all kinds of
motives and feelings -- anger, hurt, hate -- as well as speculated on
experiences -- been hurt by someone -- onto Vanka, none of which there was
evidence for in Vanka's post. Bill in Nebraska said Vanka didn't
have "real intent." I don't know whether or not Vanka had "real
intent." It is not mine to judge. What I am confident of is that nothing
Bill, Kramer or others have said would persuade Vanka in any way. I
was once taught priesthood influence offers clarification and alternatives,
priestcraft uses force. Priesthood influence uses "gentleness, meekness,
and love unfeigned." The opposite is to exercise "control, dominion,
compulsion." One cannot use satan's methods of coercion and force and
expect to get God's result. Only Christ's methods can achieve His objectives.
It is interesting that some of you are responding somewhat forcefully to Vanka
when you don't even know her. You don't know what answers she received (if
any), so please reserve your judgements. Whether or not someone has received an
answer regarding the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon is personal, and quite
frankly, not debatable on this public forum.
No American book comes close to the 150 million mark; quite a remarkable thing
for a farmer in New York------- and for the many who have helped finance the
To Vanka: What you said is not true. You say you did everything that Moroni
says which is to read it and with REAL INTENT to know if it is true. Then you
say I got nothing. You got something but it wasn't in the way YOU WERE
EXPECTING it thus you ignored the answer you received. This is what many who
state the same thing as you always get and reason why they say they feel it is
not true.You are expecting something huge and extraordinary and that
is not the way the answer comes. It comes piece meal and if you are expecting
the rest you will never understand or know the correct answer.I've
read the Book of Mormon numerous times, almost twice a year and each time I read
it I learn something new. Some times I have a new question come up and I ask
about it and for some unknown reason during my next reading, a talk in
sacrament, general conference or just listening to others discuss it my answer
comes. Not in the way man expects it but in the way the Lord presents it to me.
An interesting bit of miscellany about the Book of Mormon. The First Korean
translation was done by a man who was not LDS. There is a new translation out
recently. One of those who worked on the new one was my Stake President.
This life isn't over yet, Vanka.You'll get your answer. God fulfills
all his promises in his own time.You'll probably hate me for saying
that. I forgive you.
Vanka, You seem to want to belittle those that have a strong religious stand. I
hope that you are not trying to distroy their faith. Are you angry with someone
that expresses belief? If so, why? You've probably been hurt by someone in the
past and that is a sad thing to carry for a lifetime. Hope it works out for you.
Hate never seems to resolve an issue.
150 Million. Thats awesome. Esitmates put: 6 Billion
of the King James Bible. 800 Million of the Koran.
attentive | 1:08 p.m. April 19, 2011 You wrote: "Anyone
who reads the Book of Mormon with the intention to know whether or not it is
really true will come away with a testimony of its truthfulness."That is not true. I read it, prayed about it, and did all the things Moroni's
challenge requires, for many years, and got nothing.Please don't
continue making false promises. It is very disappointing to others when they are
The Book of Mormon is not only a guide to personal salvation it is a handbook
for national salvation. Its principles of government could be used without
reference to any particular religion. It should be quoted often, especially by
LDS politicians. The principles will stand on their own because of their
Ernest. Learn to read! It will change your life. Each Book of Mormon has the
potential of being read many times by many people. The real number of times it
has been read is likely in the hundreds of millions. Good luck!
Anyone who reads the Book of Mormon with the intention to know whether or not it
is really true will come away with a testimony of its truthfulness. Pray to
know and then it comes. It has helped me in more ways than I can say. Just the
other day one of my children told me that they noticed how much more peaceful
and happy I seem to be when I start my day by reading the scriptures. I am very
thankful for them and for Joseph Smith who gave his all, his very life, because
he knew that they were real.
And about .7M who've actually read it.
How wonderful to see this great and true book fill the earth and be translated
into many languages. This book has also really changed my life and I am so
grateful for it. I hope that many more will come to know of its truthfulness.
I love the Book of Mormon, it has changed my life dramatically. I will never be
the same (in a good way). It has brought so much joy and happiness as I have
applied it's teachings to my personal life. Very similar to the Bible and what
it has done and how it has affected my life. I thank the heavens for a God
given words through prophets.
How many copies of the koran have been printed now? Many believe it is scripture