Atheism IS an attack on religion in exactly the same way education and knowledge
is an attack on ignorance and foolishness.
Many of the comments above say that there is nothing wrong with having an
atheist club in schools, even that there is a constitutional right to form such
a club. Others said this is a non-story. They are missing the point. The
courts have denied people the right to form clubs in schools based on their
religious beliefs. Why is there a right to express unbelief (a belief in and of
itself) but no right to express belief? This is a clear example of why it was
wrong to ban religious expression in school. The establishment clause prevents
the school from forcing or encouraging people to join such a club. It should
not deny religious freedom by preventing voluntary membership in religious
LVIS,Not very Christian of me?Did you really write that
to an atheist? LOL! You are funny.If you are not LDS, perhaps you
should be. LDS assume "being nice" is a higher value than truth and
reality. LDS focus on "tone" rather than the substance of
arguments.And NO, you cannot tell anything about me from what I do
NOT believe.Let's test:Given the fact that I do NOT
believe in Hufflepuffs, what can you divine about my personality and
characteristics from such NON beliefs?In the same way, you can tell
NOTHING about a person who says, "I do not believe in a god".The fact that you think you can (and over the internet, no less) is further
similarity with LDS. LDS honestly think the "holy ghost" gives them
supernatural (magical) clairvoyant powers to discern the moral standing,
thoughts, and intents of other people.So silly.Judge
people by their actions, not by their so-called "beliefs".
A difference of opinion is not an attack.A disagreement is not an
attack.A sharing of perspective, even when that perspective is
contrary to yours, is not an attack.An atheist club is not an attack
Some comments have been posted saying "Atheist club are O.K. as long as
they don't attack religion..." As soon as these clubs are
established, the charge of "attacking religion" will be leveled
against the students participating. Religious belief cannot withstand critical
thought & scrutiny and are inevitably threatened by questioning. Religion
has had 5,000 years to discover & present it's evidence and has failed to
prove it's case. Religion persists only because of human credulity.Atheism will eventually do to religion what Jenner did to small pox, and this
terrifies those who currently profit from it.
Not one of the seven primary Constitutional principles is Judeo-Christian. Upon what specific Judeo-Christian principles was this country founded?
Slavery? Denying equal protection to women? Seriously, what are these principles
you people speak of?The U.S. Constitution is a completely secular,
Godless document. It does not mention any gods. The philosophers whose thinking
influenced the Framers were secular Europeans.
ADN,Atheism has a very strong history of personal responsibility. In
fact, you would be hard pressed to find philosophers was are more committed to
taking personal responsibility for ones life than the atheists. Read more. Learn
more. Discover. Why do suspect you won't? Taking full personal
responsibility is one of the most powerful and empowering aspects of most
atheist philosophers' writings and lives. You religionists present clownish
straw man arguments that have absolutely nothing to do with the reality of
atheism for most who are atheists. Atheists have lower rates for
divorce, suicide, depression and incarceration than religionists--including
lower rates than Christians and Mormons. Atheists have higher levels of
education and income. Atheists are over represented on every scientific and
scholarly honorary association. The National Academy of Science, Nobel Prize
honorees, etc. If we are so eager to avoid personal responsibility, why are we
such accomplished, good people? I find great wonder, joy, peace and empowerment
in my honest and responsible life as an atheist. You don't have to
be an atheist to have these wonderful things in your life, but it helps. Atheist
clubs could increase U.S. scholastic achievement.
The only thing we atheists have in common with other atheists is we don't
believe in any gods. Statistically, we are very successful and good
citizens. Atheists have low rates of divorce, suicide, incarceration, and
depression. We generally have high levels of eduction, high incomes, and are
over-represented among scientists, professors, millionaires, and Nobel Prize
recipients.If an atheist club could help kids become more like
atheists generally, then it is probably wise to encourage the clubs.
@ ADN: Actually, being an atheist is all about responsibility and doing the
right thing because it is the right thing - not because you are going to get
rewarded or punished by someone (or something) else. It is about owning your
mistakes and accepting that your choices are yours not the influence of some
"evil" being. It is about taking care of others and the world around
us because this is it.I treat those around me with respect because
they human beings and the result of the same happy accident that allows me to
exist. I treat the earth and the animals with respect because without them
there is no me. I own my life and it is the only one I have, therefore, I must
do my best to make the most of it. I don't shirk responsibility - I
gladly accept and bear it. It belongs to me and is mine - it does not belong to
some external force of good or evil.
RE: mcclarkRE: charlie91342Never said it was christina nation
but a nation founded by christains based judeo chtian values principles morals
etc.Again the point of treaty was make clear it was treaty between
nations not religions.And it is true no specific christian sect
founded this nation, does not make us any less christian, the big
differnce is we welcome all other religiosn to practice their religion freely
including atheism.Allowing one the dictates of their own conscience
is very important in this country.
We're here, and we're Atheists. Atheism is a refusal to accept uncritically
unsupported blind assertions about magic supernatural entities. Atheism takes
intellectual courage and critical thought. Students need these qualities, thus
It's about time.Read your history books. Religion has been the
number one source of destruction and death throughout human history.The Arab-Israeli conflict, the Crusades, the Inquisition, genocide against
native populations in the New World, all the way up to the current turmoil in
the Middle East and North Africa. All of it caused by Religion.What
kind of people are we? We who claim to be so enlightened, so blessed, so
forgiving, yet we can't tolerate those who hold viewpoints different from our
%Northern, You ask: "So when the Athiest get together its to worship and
celbrate "Nothing"?Seems like it would be a little boring of an
activity. I am confused as the the point of it? "Maybe they
celerbrate their freedom of thought and liberty from confinement of organized
religion. Maybe they will learn to see the world through a clearer lens of
unvarnished reality. If they are satisfied and happy with their believes then
why shouldn't we support them and be happy for them. Is there any danger or
downside to atheism.
For purposes of avoiding problems such as gay clubs, etc, school clubs should be
limited to curriculum related only.
Many LDS declare in public that they dont hate atheists, and have no problem
with the idea of atheist clubs. But in practice, as well as in doctrine, the
LDS Church and its members regular demonize, condemn, and hate atheists. Some
comments above are unfortunate examples.You believers come to us
proclaiming the Gospel. Because you are making the claims, you must provide
evidence and support. You tell us we should believe in God, a pre-earth life,
the Plan of Salvation, miracles, and latter-day prophets. We dont believe any
of it because you have not given us sufficient reason to believe. That is not
our fault, it is yours. We are not failed people, you are failed
evangelists.Missionaries are taught to try to uncover our
objections. When we explain why we find your reasons insufficient to justify
belief, you accuse us of being anti- and hateful. But we are not. We are simply
explaining why we remain unconvinced. That doesnt make us bad. Disbelief is not
a sin.Condemning people for not believing is the most troublesome
aspect of the Church. People are considered sinful or unworthy if they don't
Anyone charting an agnostic's club? The apathy club isn't quite happening yet.
As the procrastinator's club members mumble, "maybe tomorrow."
re - Richie | 4:59 p.m"I pay taxes and I have read the Constitution.
This country was founded on Judio-Christian principles. Taxpayer funds should be
cut off for Schools that have Atheist Clubs."show us where it
says that in the constitution. and you do realize schools have christian clubs,
right? so what is the difference? that they don't believe the same as you?
(are you sure you read the US constitution?)re- the truth | 5:32
p.myour post is entirely irrelevant - we are a secular nation. Just
because 70% are christians does in no way make us a christian nation. and for
that I am glad.to - als Atheist | 6:20 p.m - Right On!!And lastly, I had never heard about this "release time" thing. Do
you all really let kids out of class for religious studies during school hours?
In my opinion, that is just crazy!! you have all day sunday to have them learn
about your religion. Can you let them learn real things at school - like math,
science, english, logic, etc?I can't believe you can use a public
school for teaching religion. that seems totally against the rules
Atheism is nothing more than a denial of accountability. I feel that deep, deep
down inside all people, there is that voice telling them there is a God or a
creator or higher intelligence. Everyone has a conscience that tells them other
truths. People who claim to be atheists are in denial of accountability, thus
allowing them to "have it thier way". which is very self centered and
ego centric. Or perhaps it is just a hope that they won't be held accountable
for bad or poor choices.
Yo, The Atheist--Why the belittling? Is this raally the way to
engage in a conversation about your philosophy7 I don't see where LVIS was
trying to define for you what you do or do not believe. You did mention
something about 'hating on' in one of your posts. Was that just nice phrase, or
do you mean it? 'Cause bro, that's how you're coming across. Just sayin'
re - Gregory Johnson | 4:16 p.m"Well I am non-religious, but not an
atheist. These people in the bible did live and die and it is of great
historical significance."most atheists think Jesus and others
in the bible existed. they simply think it has nothing to do with a god. and
obviously some of the stories are simply fiction (noah's ark - all animals?,
adam and eve - a talking snake?, etc). but some of the stories are believable -
there is no reason not to believe that a guy killed his son because he thought
god told him to. we even see that kind of thing today...re - Cats |
4:30 p.m"Sad"why is it sad for someone to have a
different belief than you? whay is actually sad is that you think it is sad!!
and that's why they "hide" - because of prejudices like yours.to LVIS | 4:31 p.m - thank you. yours is the most logical post on
here.re - IJ | 4:40 p.m"Just curious about the purpose of
such a club"same purpose as your religious clubsto
Gruffi Gummi | 4:48 p.m - they have christian clubs too
The Atheist | 9:35 a.m. April 8, 2011 Provo, UT Wow.
Just--wow. First--you assume I am a mormon. I am not. You are making assumptions
without foundation--just what you accuse others of doing. I did not attack you.
I told you where I got my information, and asked you to enlighten me. It was not
meant to be arrogant or condescending, but that is the tone of your response.
Why did you respond that way? Not very Christian of you :)I will say
this--if I do want to learn more about atheism, you will not be the person I
ask. Between the Mormons I know, and the atheist I (now) know, my sense is that
I will have a more respectful and civil dialogue with the Mormons. BTW--I most certainly can tell something about people by extrapolating from
what they do NOT believe. I trust you can as well. Maybe not. I don't mean to
accuse you of anything.
I can't see why having an athiest club would be a bad thing unless those in the
club begin being malicious to other students who who do have a belief. People
of faith want so much to be understood (as do athiests I'd imagine), and to have
the freedom to worship as they choose. Shouldn't we allow others the same
privileges we want? As a Christian, I want others to know and love Christ. But
if people don't have a desire to know Him or learn of Him, I need to respect
their right to believe as they do. I hope in return they'd respect my right to
do the same.
For you LDS people who insist on defining atheism for atheists in a way that is
always negative and inconsistent with how atheists usually define themselves,
doesn't it bother you to hypocritically complain that non-Mormon Christians
define you as non-Christians while you try to tell atheists what they do and
don't believe and assume they have the worst and weakest intentions? Not believing in any gods can be empowering and peaceful. It also can be
depressing and defeating. Most atheists I know fit the former description. I
don't care if you believe in gods or not.
I really don't see what all the fuss is about. I am a believer. But I don't
hate those who don't. My kids attend Seminary, thus giving up 1 credit hour of
school during their day for religious study. If other churches wanted release
time I would think that would be a GOOD thing. I don't have a problem with kids
of like mind meeting to discuss their beliefs or what they ate for dinner last
night. Discussion is fine. It all seems crazy to tell them they can't have
their club. Go for it. It's not like they are planning something sinister.
They have the right to association just the same as you and me. Invite and
Any student can take "release time" for religious instruction if there
is a licensed teacher of that religion willing to teach them during that hour
every day. It's not just for LDS kids. Catholic kids, Lutheran kids, Muslim
kids, etc., they can all take their own release time under state law. They just
usually choose not to, and those kids graduate with more elective credits to
their name than students who choose release time. Release time grades do not
count toward your GPA. It's basically the equivalent of reading your scriptures
during study hall.As far as atheist clubs go, who cares? As long as
their club is held to the exact same rules and standards that a religious club
is held to, and the law is applied equally to each club, what's the problem?
Being a paper directly tied to the LDS church, it surprises me how so many
obviously non-LDS seem to spend so much energy on these forums. It seems many
these days look to have as much contention as possible in their lives. That
said, I see nothing wrong with an athiest club as long as it is treated like any
other religious club, and is used to explore beliefs and not to organize against
others belief. Many people likely explore athieism and other beliefs while
trying to understand who God is and what is the purpose of life.
LVIS,How brilliant. A dictionary definition. Wonderful for you.
Shall we define Mormonism according to an obscure entry in the Merriam-Webster
Dictionary? Just say the word, and we will know all about YOU by reading the
dictionary. Fair enough?It is unfortunate that I have to repeat
myself so often when trying to explain to religious people what atheism is.Let me repeat: As the word demonstrates: "a-theism"... Theism
is the belief that there is a god. The "a" at the front means
"without" "sans" "an absence of" the thing that
follows. Hence, "without belief in god". Simple, huh?Think
of:"ammoral" = without morals"aseptic" = without germs"asymptomatic" =
without symptomsAtheism is not a religion. It is not a profession.
It is not an assertion. It is not a declaration. It is not a belief, much less a
belief in the absence of anything or anyone you might call "god".Can you tell anything about anybody by extrapolating from what they do
NOT believe?Obviously not. But you and many like you think you can.
That is not only "pre-judice", but arrogant foolishness... and
intended or unintended acerbity on YOUR part.We are all born
I'm not sure what the fuss is all about? Schools organize clubs around all types
of activities. In Utah we have this cute little workaround for Mormons called
"release time". This allows students to offset their educational
schedule by one class hour spent - technically - offsite, but for all intents
and purposes on site recieving religious instruction. Secondly, seminary is by
far the least academic program in Utah high schools, but rather amounts to story
time and faith building. The Atheists in this argument aren't even asking for a
club that interferes with normal school schedules - they just want an
extra-curricular organization of peers to discuss their interests. Seems pretty
fair to me.
Gruffi Gummi, if atheism is a religion then baldness is a hair color.
When a religious group gets together they worship and celebrate God. So when the Athiest get together its to worship and celbrate
"Nothing"?Seems like it would be a little boring of an activity.
I am confused as the the point of it?
religion is nothing but opinions and it proves absolutly nothing - science is
fact of proof I am so glad to see Atheist groups in schools I wish them the best
! most of the worlds bigotry comes from religous fanatics who think the wold is
here to live as they see it they think the world should revolve around them..
there are so many religions in this society just that alone proves its all
nothing but someones point of view and that is all religion is.
Two comments. First, don't people have a right in this nation to believe or not
believe, that no one else can dictate your beliefs? If this is true, then live
the principle. For those who believe in the pre-existence, coercion is clearly
one of the founding principle of Lucifer. Second, have churches done a poor job
teaching and living their principles? Have they gone too far in coercion,
inconsistency and hypocrisy that they actually push people away, such that
people get more spiritual validation from nature than they do from a meeting?
Fair questions that people should stop and think about, in my view.
Read E.O. Wilson's book Consiliance for the reason there are atheists. These
kids have good educations and know how to think rationally which is way more
than I can say for most high schoolers.
I like the idea.If Mormon, Catholic, Baptist, etc. youth realize
there are alternatives to the fantasy of a Mighty Sky Super Hero, they may also
realize that there is real joy after Mormonism, Catholicism, etc.
You're not COOL unless you're an atheist. Haha. Oh brother.
Please see the humor in this:Do atheist clubs have a motto? A
slogan or two? Book? Books? Meet only on Tuesdays? Soon have a basketball
team? Leagues? Get excused from school to meet on a daily basis? Perhaps
dietary regulations: no colas. Publish tracts and pros..I think
this is funny. Fad? Perhaps. Trend? Probably not. Good for the soul and for
thinking. Absolutely. It beats finding kids apathetic.
The Truth: How can I be wrong when I simply quoted the treaty? It plainly
states, in no uncertain terms, that the United States of America is not in any
way founded on the Christian religion.
als Atheist | 6:20 p.m. April 7, 2011 Provo, UT"As an atheist,
I assure you your view of atheism is distorted and mistaken. As the name
demonstrates, atheism is an ABSENCE of belief regarding "god". It is
NOT a "belief that their is NO god"."Perhaps you
should enlighten us. I only know what I read, and Merriam-Webster defines
atheism as the doctrine that there is NO deity. You sound more like
an agnostic. I'm not saying you are, but how you are defining atheism seems
antithetical to how the dictionary is defining it for you. So, a
little less acerbity, and perhaps a little more civility in your comments.
Unless, you just want to be guilty of 'hating on', as you call it.
I think that here in Utah they should be given an hour off from school as
released time.And no, athiesm doesn't take as much faith as christianity.
You certainly don't have to believe in the myth, lore and superstition required
Having read DN comments and lived among LDS for years, I have observed a couple
of things:1. As demonstrated by The Rock and others, LDS feel no
hesitation in defining other people's beliefs FOR them, and they do so in order
to advance their own religious agenda.As an atheist, I assure you
your view of atheism is distorted and mistaken. As the name demonstrates,
atheism is an ABSENCE of belief regarding "god". It is NOT a
"belief that their is NO god".You do not believe in Thor,
or Zeus, or Isis. Shall we define you in terms of the deities you believe do NOT
exist and call you an "anti-Thor/anti-Zeus/anti-Isis religion"? Or
does the fact that you lack a belief in them mean nothing as regards your
"religion"?Don't tell me what I "believe",
especially when I have no belief about "god".2. LDS have
no problem demonizing, "hating on", and in every way condemning
atheists without basis. Atheists do much good.To paraphrase James:
"Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my good works
without any faith."Stop pre-judging people by beliefs.
Atheism is a religion. Even they must believe....that there is not
I don't think you can truely understand religion until you've totally rejected
it (and God) and then ask yourself if by doing so would it change who you are as
a person. It's only then that you can truely begin to understand what faith and
hope really is.
the truth---Can you tell me where in the constitution it says that this is a
Christian Nation? Because I missed that part.
RE: Schwa | 5:16 p.mYour wrong, all the treaty says is the U.S does
not represent christianlity, the point being this was a treaty
between nations not relegions,Th U.S. clearly had strong ties to
christian values and morals, many founding fathers saying we needed
a relgious peopls for it to work.
I wouldn't have had the wisdom to join an atheist club while growing up in Utah,
but would definitely recommend my children at least attend a meeting to
appreciate a pluralistic society.
Utah gives kids, and adults, a lot to think about. And, especially in utah, we
exist in a culture where a lot of us look at it and feel "whatever they're
doing, I want no part. I want the opposite", or "That poor sap is pre
destined for a future of mediocrity". Stuff like that. Aethism is for some
their way of saying "I'm not. I'm not you. I'm not buying it. I'm not
selling out to your myopic reality". So, I have to say, I'm not surprised
these clubs exist.
For those of you who may still be confused into thinking America was founded on
Christianity, I encourage you to read Article XI of the Treaty with Tripoli. Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in
any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character
of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the
said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any
Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from
religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing
between the two countries.This was signed on January 3rd, 1797, and
later unanimously ratified by Congress and then President John Adams. The
United States of America is a secular nation with the freedom to have your own
personal religious beliefs.
I pay taxes and I have read the Constitution. This country was founded on
Judio-Christian principles Taxpayer funds should be cut off for Schools that
have Atheist Clubs.
Many overtly Christians around here may well be closet atheists. I'd rather
they just be open about it. I don't find that any more offensive than clubs
formed around the worship of athletes, money, or combat.Has anyone
yet heard of a Secular Humanism club in Utah yet? Maybe that was just an
imaginary religion created by some on the fringes as an excuse to bash public
schools.They're all welcome to form clubs. This is America. I
personally would like to see some Mujahideen clubs formed. I admire the way
devout Muslims view the struggle for self improvement as a lifelong commitment.
Imagine a society of people committed to the submission of one's will to God's!
With a Buddhism club they might enjoy comparing beliefs with others
who believe this life is just one step in a pathway to enlightenment, and who
respect animals as beings with spiritual lives. Other groups could
teach us to honor our ancestors, stay close to extended families, or face
enemies without malice. Local youth might enjoy learning from and identifying
with others. There is so much to learn and so much distance still between us.
No, Gruffi Gummi, it doesn't violate the Constitution. Time to brush up on the
If this is a public school, then this club violates the Constitution. Atheism is
a religion, because it professes a firm (yet unfounded) belief in God's
non-existence.An "agnostic club" would be much less
Although I am religious, I think it would be a healthy thing to have
intellectual dialogue between believers and non-believers.Perhaps it will
ignite teenagers to think more. I just oppose subtle brainwashing from the
sponsors, from either side.That's my take on it.
Yes, I read it and am commenting, but why is this a newsworthy article?So some young people don't believe in God and are associating themselves with
like-minded schoolmates.Where's the controversy? If no controversy,
why the story?
Just curious about the purpose of such a club. I understand the function of
most school clubs; some exsit around specific interests, i.e., chess, some
service, some athletics. What would the their take on life be?
I consider myself a Christian, but I certainly don't care if atheists have a
club. I don't believe being an atheist means you are 'anti-christian'--it just
means you believe there is no deity. Quite frankly, it takes just as much faith
to be an atheist as it does to be a Christian--and neither should feel
threatened by the other. I am not troubled by your belief (or non/dis-belief),
and you shouldn't feel troubled by mine.
Atheist clubs in high schools.Yeah. You got a problem with that?!
Well I am non-religious, but not an atheist. These people in the bible did live
and die and it is of great historical significance. I can only hope their is a
higher intelligence than mankind.
What a relief we have moved on from gay/straight clubs, but wait till the
legislature hears about this one!
Atheist clubs should go by the same rules for religious clubs like Fellowship of
Christian Athletes. Either allow them both or allow neither.