re:Bill in Nebraska"Also, for those members who need assistance may
be asked to assist at the Bishop's storehouse to stack shelves, can
goods."Apparently few people are informed about the govt.
welfare system. #1. I've lived in many different wards outside of
Utah. Many times assistance is given without requiring people to work for it.
(few people live near a Bishop's storehouse). The Personal Responsibility and
Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act of 1996 allows states latitude in how it
distributes aid, requires recipients to find work or perform community service
within 2 yrs., and imposes lifetime limits. #2 Unused fast
offerings are returned to the Stake. #3 Families/individuals in
Utah, with its majority LDS members, receive federal/state aid. So apparently
the Church welfare system can't/doesn't meet everybody's needs. The Church
welfare system applies only to LDS members.
The LDS Church welfare system is only temporary in nature. It is there to help
and get someone started in the right direction. President Reagan went through
the Welfare Center of the Church and indicated that this is the way the US
should be run. As many leaders have stated, we take the person to the
lake/stream and teach them to fish so that the next time they can catch their
own fish. The US system is to take them to the stream and get them fish but
never to teach, thus they come back and need someone to catch that fish. One is
socialistic and one is self-reliance.Also, for those members who
need assistance may be asked to assist at the Bishop's storehouse to stack
shelves, can goods, clean the chapels and other work. They are never forced
however, assistance may be taken away at the Bishop's/Branch President's
discretion. The LDS Church's organization is perfect ran by imperfect
individuals yet it has worked for 75 years and continues to do so. By the way
the fast offering stays in the Ward/Branch for use of local members.
Hmmmm this sure got off the Conference talk topics. In the Holy Bible, in the
book of Malachi, the Lord commands us to pay tithing otherwise He says that we
have robbed Him. We are also commanded to be charitable towards the poor and
the needy throughout the Scriptures. So when we pay tithing, we are
only being obedient to the Lord. We are accountable for our own tithings and
offerings to the Savior and if we are able to look into His eyes and tell Him we
were honest with Him, then we can tell the bishop that we are full tithe payers.
That way we also have fulfilled ONE of the requirements to receive a temple
recommend. There are many more. Everyone who believes in the Bible,
not just Mormons, are required to tithe according to Malachi.
Pagan, you lost me at "As I understand it..."RedShirt1701,
I disagree with your assertion that the LDS welfare system is "What is
being done is conservative or libertarian, but not liberal if you must classify
it." My disagreement: I don't think it should be classified. Because,
ultimately, if someone needs your help and is unable to repay "you" or
the system, would you still withhold your help?
And actually, I look at "willingly" in a different way. If I don't want to give, I DO NOT have to. It is my choice whether I want a
temple recommend or not. (Tithing or fast offerings, I think you're splitting
hairs here.)Obviously some do not care, and so do not give
willingly. That's your privilege. But why do you insist on
judging my choices?
Pagan is correct broadly, ie. if a member admits they don't pay 10% tithing then
they are denied a temple recommend. However, leaders don't actually ask about
wages/income or request proof of wages/income. It is merely a declaration by
the member. Therefore, people could lie and declare themselves a tithe payer
and get a temple recommend. re:higv"How can you be
blessed for not doing something willingly."Agree. I choose to
"willingly" pay taxes to help the elderly, poor, and disabled. Govt. and charities have a role in caring for the needy in our country.
Neither can do it alone. If it weren't for the govt. programs, the demands on
the Church for assistance would be significantly greater. The majority of govt.
welfare goes to Social Security and Medicare. How many wards could shoulder the
burden to keep the elderly fed and housed without Social Security? How many
wards could pay the medical expenses of the elderly and disabled without
Medicare? I wonder what would happen if tithing went to care for
the needy and fast offerings went to pay for church operations?
Re: Pagan | 11:57 a.m. April 4, 2011You need to slow down and catch
your breath. The reason people are responding to your comments is because they
are inaccurate.You are confusing the annual tithing settlement with
the temple recommend interview which only occurs once every 2 years.You also appear to have some confusion regarding fast offerings but it would
be fruitless to try and explain it other than to say tithing funds aren't used
for welfare purposes.
To "Pagan | 11:57 a.m." you didn't hit a sore spot, you just got two
repsonses submitted within a short period of time.I was just trying
to correct your ignorance. However, as you show here, you don't want to learn
something new. You only want to continue to live in ignorance.
To Pagan: Both Redshirt and Rifleman are correct. It is you that is
misinformed. We are asked to give 10% od our increase to The Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-Day Saints. This amount is our tithing money. This is what is
counted as our money to obtain and MAINTAIN a Temple Recommend.The
money we give to fast offerings, temple building, printing of the Book of
Mormon, and other offerings are above and behond the 10% tithing.We
are not audited in the same since a business is. The Bishop/Branch President
doesn't have us bring in our pay stubs and then he looks it over and say you
gave 10% or you didn't. We give that as an honor testimony. The Bishop/Branch
President doesn't ever say prove it. As Rifleman so perfectly put it what we
say is either honest or it is not, thus it is between us and Jesus Christ, no
one else.Did I give my 10% last year, yes and much more to the other
areas I can give. In all I gave closer to 15-20% to the LDS Church. Do you have
a problem with that?
'And yes, members are "audited" during tithing settlement at the end
of each year. Whether they answer truthfully is between them and their Maker.' -
Rifleman | 11:49 a.m. Not true. As I understand it, if a
person does not meet the minimum requirements, they do not get a 'recommend.' Giving 10% is one of those requirements. Or giving 'from fast', but
giving none the less. So, a consequence: The denial of recommend, is
evident. If not 'giving' that 10%. Or from others, as your example
gives. How is having a consquence... a 'charity?' To claim that money is somehow 'not' given to welfare... when the
very TITLE of the article cites 'welfare highlight' is a
contradiction. Also, since both Rifleman AND Redshirt1701 had to
reply to me... I must have hit a sore spot. Good day.
Re: Pagan | 10:59 a.m. April 4, 2011 Tithing collected from LDS
members is not used for welfare needs. Those funds come from fast offerings
that are above and beyond the 10% donation you referred to.And yes,
members are "audited" during tithing settlement at the end of each
year. Whether they answer truthfully is between them and their Maker.
To "Pagan | 10:59 a.m." the 10% tithes it to take care of the physical
needs of the church, and has absolutely nothing to do with welfare.The welfare money that is donated to the church is not just "given"
to people. The recipiants, where possible, are asked to work for what they
receive.To "LDS Liberal | 6:07 p.m" Explain how making
people work for something, and creating a non-governmental service is
liberal.What is being done is conservative or libertarian, but not
liberal if you must classify it.
'Not take money from one person to give it to another. How can you be blessed
for not doing something willingly.' - jonjon | 8:59 p.m. Did you
give your 10%? I dont' believe you. We should audit.
Also, did you get your 'recommend?'
Elder Holland could make a billon dollars----Elder Holland, Elder
Bednar, Elder Dallan H Oakes, to mention a few would all be great motivational
speakers. In fact, they were, during conference. I was very motivated. Now, I also want to go to Rome to attend the new temple being built
there. Who would have thought?
I "told" you Mormonism is liberal.------------More like Libertarian. Listening to the prophet made me excited for the Rome
Temple Dedication. Also Elder Holland could make a Billion Dollars as a
We are taught to be charitable with our own property. Not take money from one
person to give it to another. How can you be blessed for not doing something
Welfare with work attached! Imagine that! Liberalism (socialism) is free
everything with no work attached= dependancy= loss of human dignity= just
another form of slavery! Work for your welfare and you have a perfect way to
care for the poor! I think the Mormons are on to something that I wish the
government would adopt! Imagine getting food stamps or free healthcare only if
you cleaned up roadside trash or washed public building windows/floors/walls for
your benefits! Most poverty would vanish!
I "told" you Mormonism is liberal.