Speaker at UVU says minority religions need to back each other
to...I M LDS 2 | 2:52 p.m. March 14, 2011 "9/11 was most definitely a
religious AND political AND military statement"from who?
Muslims only?9/11 was so bizarre, sad but bizarre. 3, 4 airplanes
flying around everywhere without further action to avoid what happened? c'mon we
are USA, and we were not able to avoid that tragic event?This is a
free country, we can build a temple, mosque, any building to worship, no
damage...no problem.Don't blame the Muslims for 9/11, blame your
government! we trained them, we gave them guns and money and after that we call
them the enemy, no marl for that
RE: After he earned degrees at Uof U and UCBerkley, he taught economics at
BYU, His liberalism so appalled Ernest Wilkensen, Wilkensen
commissioned students to spy on him and report back. He resigned from BYU when
the Spy Ring went public. After his resignation, He started his research
/polling organization and within a couple of years became the pollster for
Ronald Reagan's campaigns, Governor Reagan's administration, and then the Reagan
Presidential administration.Apparently Wilkensen had rather strict
definitions of what it meant to be a liberal.
Different issue completely. This is about Muslims being able to build a mosque
in new york city in the united states of America. Mecca is in a different
country with different laws. Thus it is a issue over American law affecting
Americans don't change the subject.
How about building a Mormon Temple in Mecca?
I am a committed, believing Latter-day Saint. I believe that there is no
justifiable position Latter-day Saints can take but to support freedom of
religion, including the building of a Muslim community center in New York City.
I personally know many Muslims. They are not terrorists, and they
do not want Sharia law in America. American democracy and freedom is as
important to them as it is to Christians, Jews, other religionists, and
non-believers. Prothero is absolutely right. Latter-day Saints
should speak out in favor of the right of Muslims to build where anyone else
would be legally allowed to build.And I think it is wrong--read that
"hypocritical"--to criticize Muslims for the behavior of the crazy
element among them without acknowledging the crazy elements among all groups.
Northstar1.... by what measure did "they win". What objective did
they achieve. Are you saying that their ultimate goal was to have their host
countries government overthrown? How the heck did they win? And how is this a
Victory Mosque?Using how Arab tyrants rule their countries should
not be the basis for how we run our own. If the Jews have been able to make
peace with the German people, surely someone from Kaysville can get over the it.
Focus on something more than a once in a life time event. Last
year over 15,000 people were murdered in this country.... 95,000 women were
raped. Why don't you focus your rage on something that happens day in and out
in this country. You want to make America safer.... focus on those thing in
our own communities that help. This irrational fear of muslims is
crazy. People who point to muslim scriptures as saying telling muslims they
should be violent to other faiths don't know their own scriptures very well.
These same edicts are found in Christian scripture too.It is very
sad so many people choose to live their lives so scared.
JLFULLER writes: "When it comes to Islam, the problem is not faith. The
problem is politics. Islam mixes politics and belief into an amalgam that makes
it hard to have one without the other. Few condemn Muslims for their particular
belief in God even if they call Him by another name. The problem is with those
Muslims who put politics before their faith. For Muslims who put faith before
politics, I doubt they are the people Congress is concerned with." now try this PERFECT FIT:When it comes to Mormonism, the problem is not
faith. The problem is politics. Mormons(in Utah)mix politics and belief into an
amalgam that makes it hard to have one without the other. Few condemn Mormons
for their particular belief in God even if they call Him by another name. The
problem is with those Mormons who put politics before their faith. For Mormons
who put faith before politics, I doubt they are the people Congress is concerned
with.Now THAT is said perfectly!
Wow, what a wonderful idea! This would make us immediately accepted by our
evangelical brothers and sisters. In Mitt Romney's book No Apology, he devotes
several pages to the threat of Radical Islam. Mitt has done his homework and he
understands the threat. As a nation, we fail to confront that it at our peril.
Somehow, Muslim students manage to attend BYU without causing trouble. With only a few exceptions, the vast majority of Muslims living in the U.S.
manage to live alongside Christians peaceably. Terrorism is not
confined to Muslims. Were the IRA Muslim? How about Timothy McVeigh? The largest number of Muslims live in Indonesia, India and Pakistan.
How many resort to terrorism? We should build bridges with
moderate Muslims, join forces to fight those using terrorist tactics and combat
the problem with muslims is they still follow all the rules from the old
testament. that includes wiping out cities, stoning people to death, death
penalty for disobedient sons or wives, etc. At least the jewish and catholic
folks stopped following the old testament and just kept the peaceful dogma.how do we convince muslims that they don't have to follow the old
testament anymore? I figure you all are the people to ask, since you all
stopped using it. any suggestions? what made you all stop
following the old testament rules? if we can come up with a way to convince
muslims to stop adhereing to it, we may find peace in our lifetimes.
sergio,Yours is a bad comparison. The proposed "Cordoba
House" (also called the Ground Zero Mosque) is at 45 Park Place, the former
Burlington Coat Factory building, which is only two blocks, around a corner,
from the WTC site.Not the same thing at all.9/11 was
most definitely a religious AND political AND military statement. In America, we
separate Church and State. But not in most parts of the Middle East. Caliphs are
not only religious leaders, but also political and military leaders as well.The "Khalifat Rasul Allah" (Caliphate) is the political
successors to the messenger of God (Muhammad), the power and authority of which
was transferred to the Turkish Grand National Assembly (by Mustafa Kemal
Atatürk). Thus, the powers of the Caliphate have been vested in the Turkish
Parliament, which in turn has delegated its authority to various Turkish
government institutions. At any time, the Republic of Turkey may decide to
reinstate the caliphate, and has the legislative power and also the religious
authority to do so.Ultimately, there is no distinction between
Islamic houses of "worship" (Churches) and non-religious
structures.Always remember Hagia Sophia and Constantinople.
This is America, we are free. In America, we are free to build any type of
building of worship. If its their land and its legal, they can build whatever
they want. Sorry folks, I believe in the Constitution and I believe in America.
If you dont like freedom and would want others to tell you where to build, go to
another country. God bless America.
Having lived in the middle east for 10 years, mostly in Iran and Saudi Arabia, I
believe it will be at least 2,000 more years before a Mormon church is built in
either of those countries. And having a taxi driver in Karachi whisper to me
that he was a christian and lived in fear of his life didn't help to change my
mind. Therefore I will pass on supporting the mosque at ground zero.
%northstar1; Following your lodgic the Mormon temple in St George would have to
be removed because of its proxcimity to the Morning Meadows massacre site. 9/11 was a political action, not a religious statement.
The issue is one that the LDS faith also faced: making a religion compatible
with the rule of law. Islamists subscribe to Sharia Law, which is
counter to many constitutional principles. Shall we begin with "cruel and
unusual punishment?"It only takes a small percentage of any
group to change the face of society. A good example is in our own history:
Only 12% of Americans actively supported the war for independence from
BritainIf Islam wants to become established under Constitutional
law, it is going to have to eliminate some of its extremist views found in
Sharia law, just as the Mormons had to compromise to receive statehood.
Absolutely no bearing whatsoever! The Ground Zero Mosque should NOT be allowed
anywhere near the grounds of the tragic event. It would signal to the terrorist
perpetrators, and the keen followers of their religion, that they won.
Bottom-line: If Christian groups went over to Arab countries and demanded to
build a Christian building next to a site with tragic history, they would be
jailed, hanged or outright stoned to death. Building a mosque near the 9-11 site
is outright provocation at its best and they should not be allowed to rule on
this one. Period! Why are people even debating this one.
Wherever they ban muslims, they will ban Mormons. Wherever there is
hate for Muslims, there will be hate for Mormons. Wherever they
take religious freedoms away from Muslims they will take it from Mormons.Where they oppose mosques they will oppose Mormon Temples.The same people who dislike Muslims are also the same who think Mormons are a
cult. Do not stand shoulder to shoulder with intolerance because they will come
after you after they get rid of the group currently in their target.
I am a bit amazed at the comments on here. I shows how very little people know
about the history of their own religion. Statements like "muslims mix
faith and politics..." well what do you think the early "saints"
did? I know, I know, it was different back then because it was the true faith,
and so it is an exception. When you start casting dispersions at
other faiths, you really need to have your facts straight or you really end up
looking ignorant. The church has made it very clear that LDS are to grant to
all others the same privilage of following their own beliefs, just as we expect
to be able to do likewise. We as such, should stand for everyone's right to
practice their faith, no matter if we agree with it or not. The government
should never be allowed to make members of any faith, as distasteful as one
believes that faith to be, feel that they are not allowed to practice their
faith at will. And to comments such as "in Suadi Arabia we
can't preach"... well, get over it. We hold ourselves to the highest
standard, not the lowest.
My relationship with Muslims and everyone else in the world brings me to love my
Muslim neighbors, some of whom I attended services with at their local community
center last Friday, but also to question Mr. Prothero's paradigms: in January I
joined Bahá'í neighbors at a special devotional to pray for
Bahá'ís being persecuted in Iran and for peace in the world. I
trust that if I read one of Mr. Prothero's books or listened to him lecture that
I would find that it was merely the constraints of a newspaper article that made
his views appear to me as narrow and misguided.
DN: why didn't my first comment get posted? Did you know?It
can be said that Iraq was more secular under Saddam than it is now, after the
U.S. invasion, BECAUSE the Iraqi Constitution, adopted in 2005, states that no
law can be enacted which contravenes Islamic (Sharia) law. Regarding the 9/11 community center/mosque, some 9/11 families oppose it while
some support it. Bin Laden's goal was to further drive a wedge between the U.S.
and Muslims. The Prof. is spot on. Build the mosque/community
Those who carried out the Mountain Meadows Massacre are not my brothers, those
who participated in that murder burnt there LDS brotherhood card up when they
meted out there sentence of death. I agree with you LDS Lib from
Farmington, terrorism is all the same it targets innocence and commits murder in
the name of a twisted and perverted religious or political aims. We
as free United States Citizens regardless of our political, non-religious or
religious beliefs need to see the real motivation behind terror and hate and
understand evil and tyranny in whatever form it may take. I personally feel that
supporting a Mosque at this location is a provocation of intimidation and is
inspired by those who promote disunity and the ideology of 2nd class citizenry
of the free Republic of which we stand.
'...I did not claim to be a conquered person, nor does the pact of Umar suggest
that people need to be conquered to have this Pact in effect.' - Big Hapa |
10:45 a.m. 'One must study for themselves to know the Muslim
motivation to have a Mosque, it represents among many things, the Pact of Umar
this thousand year old pact allow's a conquered people a choice of conversion to
Islam or death.' - Big Hapa | 9:28 a.m. Argue with yourself as you
wish. I am not needed for that. Since we both agree that you are NOT
conquered, I wonder why you brought it up. Since, as you say, it is not
needed. It is possible that you posturing from a point of anger and
hostile feelings toward Muslims, but only you can answer that.
Myself, I do not try to place blame on all for the actions of a few. Otherwise,
I would be upset with everyone. There are good Muslims, just like
good Mormons, etc. My name is Pagan. Not my belief. That was your
assumption. And if you side against tyranny... why did
America invade Afghanistan? Good day.
I believe the "LDS" in "LDS Liberal" less and less each time
he posts. MMM was not a "terrorist actack" by
"Radical extremists". It was a part of an ongoing war and motivated
by real belief about poisoning. It was also part of the greater attempt to
preserve some land for Native Americans. I am surprised liberals do not praise
it as a legitimate resistance to the denial of land to Native Americans and the
imposition of white rule throughout the country.
No, if you read closer with less arrogance you can plainly see that I did not
claim to be a conquered person, nor does the pact of Umar suggest that people
need to be conquered to have this Pact in effect. Interesting how you claim that
I said I was a conquered person when I clearly did not.I am sorry
that I do not subscribe to your pagan opinion clearly you are posturing from a
point of anger and hostile feelings toward others who are not of your Pagan
position.I however would stand up for your right to have pagan,
budhist or whatever you believe in and I would not label you as a 2nd class
Citizen or dhimmis. Finally, the motivations we have are either benevolent or
they are not I stand side by side with any creed or religion against tyranny.
I'd to remind my "Brothers & Sisters" (gag) of September
11th.....1857.Mountain Meadows is our own 9/11 terrorist attack by
"radical extremeists".Have another spoonful of that humble
The comparison of Park 51 to the YMCA is a bit strained. It is probably good on
most levels, but the Park 51 Center is clearly more religious than the modern
YMCA is.Why there is such huge hatred on the part of some of Muslims
is beyond my understanding. Probably because I grew up in a place with many
Muslims and have interacted with them in many situations.
'...it represents among many things, the Pact of Umar this thousand year old
pact allow's a conquered people a choice of conversion to Islam or death.' - Big
Hapa | 9:28 a.m. Are you a 'conquered people' Happa? You
don't SOUND like your conquered. As, a 'conquered people' wouldn't
have the ability to speak out. Also, to claim you ARE conquered when
you are not, fails to give justification for any retribution, real or
percived. And last, the constant rhetoric of the 'us vs. them' is
NOT soely from the other side. *'Company to Remove Bible References
From Combat Rifles' - Fox News - 01/21/10Line: 'A Michigan defense
contractor will voluntarily stop stamping references to Bible verses on combat
rifle sights made for the U.S. military....' Still waiting for those
WMDs. Yes, 9/11 was horrible. Does that give
justification for FUTURE deaths? *'Body of fallen Grantsville
soldier arrives home to neighbors, thousands of flags' - By Alex Cabrero -
Deseret News - 10/19/10Line: 'Byrd was shot and killed in Afghanistan last
I don't support any religion that advocates killing other people.
One must study for themselves to know the Muslim motivation to have a Mosque, it
represents among many things, the Pact of Umar this thousand year old pact
allow's a conquered people a choice of conversion to Islam or death. This pact of Umar dates back to around the year 720, it mandates dhimmis as
they are referred to in Islam, to a subservient role to any muslim in many ways
it is comparable to the Jim Crow laws to blacks. This pact involves
the denial to all persons or dhimmis, zero equalitly to a Muslim from the
earliest of days to the present the religion of Islam and the its muslim
followers have second class citizenship in mind for all persons who do not
acknowledge Mohamed as the one and true prophet of Allah. I do
believe in the rights of all creeds, religions and fair minded people the right
to live and let live. However, the question of tolerating this extremely
provocative and inflammatory gesture of a mosque at ground zero is nothing more
then a continuation of this thousand year old tradition.We US
citizens are 2nd class or dhimmis.
'The Muslim practice of building mosques at the site of their
victories/conquests indicates they may consider this mosque as more than a
"community center".' - ShaunMcC | 4:46 p.m. 1) You are not
speaking AS a mulsim about thier faith. Rather, you are speaking as an outsider
about something you probably know little about. How would I know this? You
didn't identify yourself as one. Only speaking about another group,
as if you knew it intimately. 2) There is no 'conquest' here. Only
implication. If radical muslims CLAIMED this as a 'victory' and 'conquest', I
could see your point. But again, Muslims have not made this claim.
Only those against them to begin with. 3) There was a small mosque
INSIDE the twin towers before the 9/11 attack. *'Muslims and Islam
Were Part of Twin Towers Life' - SAMUEL G. FREEDMAN - NY Times - 09/10/10Line: 'And so he learned about the Muslim prayer room on the 17th floor
of the south tower.' 4) The results of such fear-mongering. *'Muslim congressman weeps at terror hearing' - MSNbc - 03/10/11Line: 'Tearfully describing the story of a Muslim-American
They owned and operated at the site before the 9/11 event. Now they are
proposing to improve on their property in conformity with the NY zoning and
building laws. It is not like they have gone out and sought a location at the
9/11 area to cause problems. They already owned their location. They should be
entitled to do improvements. In north Phoenix the Mormon church is building a
temple that the residends of the area very much oppose. But, the church owns the
land and has the right to improve on it in accord with state laws.
'Why scholar thinks Mormons should support Ground Zero Mosque' - Article This is one thing I can (gasp!) agree with Mormon scholors about.
People really should get over themselves. If they want to build a mosque they
have that right. There is nothing prohibiting it in the constitution period. I
can understand the mix reactions that are occurring especially since it is
ground zero we are talking about. Popular opinion cannot, should not, and
cannot afford to determine were followers of Islam or any other religious body
wish to build a place of worship particularly if they own the ground. I do not
agree with opposition to deny them the right to build the mosque but I will
agree that people have a right to voice their opinions. We are a country of law
not opinion and the law does uphold their right to build it.
"Mormonism has made a transformation over the years in public opinion and
acceptance."yes, public opinion and acceptance of mormons has
gotten worse =)
Why should there be any support of a mosque anywhere near ground zero? I lost a
relative in tower one that day,also can anybody give one legitimate reason why
it should have my blessing.All it would do is rub salt in the wounds of the
fallen while laughing at us.Look I'm not a PC kind of guy but I do recognise the
danger they present and how to defend against it.I wish you all would search a
little deeper before a foolish decision is made.
Re: Big Happa"There is no warrior or militaristic history with
the LDS church fonder and Prophet Joseph Smith."Uh, ever hear
of the Nauvoo Legion and Lt. General Joseph Smith?I am certainly not
comparing Joseph Smith to be even remotly like Muhammed, but let's not overstate
I have had a number friends who were Muslim that I have invited to major events
in my life (one as soon as two weeks ago). Yes, friends. I have studied and
worked with them and they have NEVER EVER experienced persecution or
intimidation from me, period. I say this boldly, because I will not be lectured
to about extending the hand of friendship to Muslims just because I have
misgivings about the Ground Zero Mosque. I am as much in favor of
looking for the good in every religion as anyone (and I do), but I'm not going
to sit there and pretend that all the Islam wants to do is get along. Coptic
Christians are being slaughtered by garden variety Muslims for pretended
offenses against the name of Muhammad. Look it up. From the
beginning, Islam has been spread by Muslims who were just minding their own
business living their religion, part of which involves Sharia law. A legitimate
Muslim can live his religion by conquering for Islam by the sword and gain
eternal life. These are facts that we wish weren't true, but true
nonetheless.Bottom line: be neighborly, but watch your back.
@Rock Of The Marne: "Most Middle Eastern and Southeastern Asian Muslims I
know are good people."The issue is not about the good people.
The issue of the Peter King hearings is about people who would do us harm. The
question is, where are the radicalized youth getting their instructions? And is
there any way to stop them. We have been attacked dozens of times and we are
consequently on high alert in airports and other places. We need to find out
who is providing the source of terror and how to stop it. Our nation can't go
on spending billions of money we don't have to try to avert terrorism. We need
answers even if DNews monitors and many posters on this thread think
otherwise.-------------@Breakfast of Champions:"I have studied Islam extensively, have personal friends who are Muslim,
and have even visited both mosques in Salt Lake and talked with the
Imams."Why don't you go to a Mosque in a Muslim country and see
what they teach. Perhaps in the Mosque where bin Laden worships.
@l.cee: "First of all--let's get this straight. The mosque is not AT
ground zero but NEAR it a couple blocks away. How can that be a problem of
disrespect?"The building situated where the Mosque is proposed
was hit by flying debris from the attack. That technically makes it part of
ground zero."Come on. Let it go and stop letting the secular
(read media) fearmongering take you over."As was reported in
the Congressman Peter King hearing, 80 percent or more of physical attacks
around the world are instigated and/or carried out by those who claim the
religion of Islam. That should engender some fear... perhaps not of the
First of all--let's get this straight. The mosque is not AT ground zero but
NEAR it a couple blocks away. How can that be a problem of disrespect? Have ya
heard what they really are going to do with the actual "sacred" (as
some people say) Ground Zero? Is this what you want: respect the dead with
(wait for it) NEW...HUGE...SKYSCRAPERS!! Come on. Let it go and stop
letting the secular (read media) fearmongering take you over. Go serve a Muslim
(remember, they too are children of God and are loved by Him) and you'll learn
to love them. If not, then go hide in your bomb shelter and try to find the joy
I am sick and tired of extremists on the right thinking all Muslims are bad.They are no better than the extremists on the left who think all Christians
are bad.If this Mosque has nothing to do with extremists than why not
support it?If it does than I am against it. I have great Muslim friends
and I am blessed to have them. I learn so much from them. And their kindness is
genuine.People on both sides are constantely generalizing people and
discriminating them. I dont even know what liberal or concervative means anymore
at least to most people. I try to do the right thing. Not what Democrats
or Republicans would do. I think it is better to pray about it and listen to the
still small voice.We need to get our lives in order instead of worring
about others or judging others. Be kind and love everybody whether we
support, or agree with them or not. It really hurts me to see all this hate in
the world. If we do not support good we become the bad.
No matter what was said in the article one thing that was said was right on
point.Republican Mormons are Republicans first and Mormons second.
Let Stephen Prothero know he has it wrong. I'm Mormon and I absolutely support
the right of people to be insensitive. Muslims want to build a Mosque next to
the site of 911, let them. I didn't know it was a matter of religious bigotry to
opine it would be offensive.
Yes, we Mormons should defend the rights of unpopular religious minorities,
ShaunMcC, you are so right. Mountain Meadows is set aside as a place for the LDS
to stand and reflect on the worst thing any of us could ever do. Never Again!
Muslims, rejoiced on the streets of the middle eastern countries when the
towers fell. We all saw it on the news and on the internet, even thier own news.
A picture is worth a thousand words.
Yes the savage attacks of religious bigotry unite all peoples that have survived
the refiners firer and have a hardened survival resolve as the outcome.However, that is the beginning and the end of the analogy with LDS follower
and the Muslim follower of Islam. Islam has a direct link to a
warrior prophet Mohamed leading his followers into glorious battle in defense of
the teachings of Islam.There is no warrior or militaristic history
with the LDS church fonder and Prophet Joseph Smith. However, in
this modern world of global interconnections of information and good will it is
always wise and prudent to respect and admire similarities and differences. My
thought on the Mosque location is that it is purposefully provocative with
intent to inflame and cankering an all ready deep rift of suspicion and
distrust.Time heals all, but in this case it will take a God to
heal this wound.
There are a few problems with this:1) Does someone else being a
religious minority mean that other religious minorities automatically music
sympathize and agree with their causes? No.2) Define persecution.
(I'm not picking on Muslims, just read) While 'Mormons' were murdered, raped,
tarred & feathered, forced to relocate on foot. Muslims today in America
experience unpopularity and as much violence as other groups have. No one is
forcing Muslims to relocate, etc. Muslims today and Mormons yesterday do not
compare. I'm sure Muslims have faced severe violence in their history, but
modern America hardly qualifies as an example of it. Plus- Mormons view Joseph
Smith as a literal prophet of God; so for 'the believer', no one faces more
persecution than a true prophet, making it a bad comparison to use.3) If a radical Mormon blew up a building, the LDS church would never build a
temple next door to avoid any possible disrespect. Muslim's aren't necessarily
being disrespectful by wanting this mosque, but Mormons have a VERY different
set of ethical premises than Muslims, and will certainly lead to different
conclusions because quite simply, Mormons have very specific beliefs, which are
The Muslim practice of building mosques at the site of their victories/conquests
indicates they may consider this mosque as more than a "community
center". Their determination to continue with this in spite of the public
feeling against it shows they are not interested in "peaceful
coexistence" but in putting forth their agenda regardless of how others are
affected. Comparing with Mormons - how offensive would it be for the church to
put up a visitor's center or temple at the site of the Mountain Meadows
Massacre. Instead they put up a simple monument honoring the victims there to
remember them and remind us of what can happen if people act out of fear and/or
revenge instead of love. There is a world of difference.
MoJules,Attempting to discredit an opposing viewpoint with your "I do
not spend my whole day reading every ones comments on DN" bomb (as if to
suggest that I do)is a perfect example of how cognitive rigidity defies reason
and courteous dialogue. However, let's try to take the high road and keep things
civil and without vitriol. For those who have taken time to read DN
posts dealing with the blatant frustration, antagonism and yes, in some cases,
downright animosity that spews out the mouths of some Utahans, it becomes
discouraging to compare how similar reactions from anti Muslims; Muslims who in
reality are merely collateral damage of the publicized acts of a few radical
extremists and drum beaters that are quick to condemn an entire Hispanic race
for the migratory patterns of border crossers they may not even know.I am ashamedly reminded at the cruelty inflicted upon interned Japanese
Americans half a century ago by a bunch of lunatic, uneducated, knee jerk, mob
mentality, flag waving American citizens stirred into a hateful frenzy by media
and government spreading false information. American brothers,
please; have we learned nothing from foolish errors in our previous American
"More faithful to the Republican Party than their Mormon faith." Best
line in the article, and regrettably in too many cases, too true. As Mormons why would we even want to associate ourselves with Ted Bundy or
some other notables who became infamous because of their deeds? Why
can't we understand, conversely, the desire of the vast majority of Muslims to
disassociate themselves from Osama bin Laden? One day we will all
be brothers in fact, not merely the children of Abraham in name only.
"Islam is an ideological movement of militant worldwide domination and
subjugation, deceptively veiled in religious dogma."__________What is ironic is that you can say that about any religion on earth...
There are similarities if you look for them.One sect of Muslims pay
10% of their income to the church, have a womens organization, have a youth
learning group and have a mens group to meet about religious things, and have a
prophet. Smacks of a popular church locally. This group also has
hospitals set up in third world countries where they GIVE medical attention to
populations in these countries where doctors and professional medical people
from their church are called to go to these hospitals and work for free for a
year at a time.Having worked with the UN I know that this sect puts
100% of the donations they receive into actual projects unlike groups like
UNICEF where only 10% of the donations actually make it to relief sites. This
one particular group of Muslims set the tone for other groups actually helping
the poor and needy.
One does not need to agree with a religion, group, or individual to understand
that if democracy is going to work, then everyone needs to be treated with
respect. If we expect to be respected, we must show the same level of respect
to others that we would like shown to us.The professor is right. If
we expect to be able to build our temples and other places of worship where we
want too, then we must respect others right to do the same.
Islam is an ideological movement of militant worldwide domination and
subjugation, deceptively veiled in religious dogma. This is in stark contrast to
LDS Doctrine, and many, if not all, other religious doctrines. The primary
purpose of Islam is to implement Sharia Law worldwide, and eliminate all other
law. In America, this means eliminating our US Constitution, which we Mormons
clearly understand from verses in the D&C comes from God. Since the General
Authorities have not issued any proclamations stating that the verses in the
D&C about the US Constitution have been abrogated, then I can only presume
that the Church is also opposed to the implementation of Sharia in the United
States. An area of about three miles around any and all mosques worldwide is
considered de facto part of the conquered territory of the Dar al-Islam, which
roughly translates to the House of Islam. Thus, unlike the construction of LDS
templesor really any other denominations house of worshipa mosque is a claim on
sovereign territory and part of the Islamic policy of world domination. In this
respect, ALL Americans should be opposed to the existence of ANY mosques on US
Jonathan Eddy I am referring to this blog, I do not spend my whole day reading
every ones comments on DN, but I did read all the comments here and that is what
I based it on. On a personal basis about this Mosque, I really
would not care, but I do care how the people of NY and the families feel, let
them vote, let them decide and all the rest of us stay out of it.
Many have already made great points about this professor's weak logic. I just
want to say that there is a HUGE difference in his vain attempt to relate the
two groups and why we should support the mosque on Ground Zero. The huge
difference is this:There were no radical Mormons who committed an
act of terrorism resulting in the deaths of 3000 innocent lives.Also, in spite of 9/11, Muslims are far from being persecuted in the same way
that the Church was being persecuted, even by its own government.For
him to try to relate the two groups and attempt at guilting us to support the
mosque is just offensive.
The Muslim religion is not organized and has no hierarchy or head like the
Mormon church. That is probably why they do not make a unified statement against
radical Islam. I think it is good that we accept all peaceful
relgious folks. But unlike Mormonism that holds to feedom to choose religion as
one of its most basic tenents, if the Muslims ever become a majority, amen to
all other religions.
Sorry, I can still see the celebration in the streets when news of 9/11 reached
the Islamic world and since when was Islam a minority religion? My son
lived in Saudi Arabia for 5 years. They held their own church meetings, moving
from one house to another each week, not gathering in too large a group to be
noticed. They were not allowed to bring religious Christian books with them,
though he had been hired because of his Word of Wisdom compliance and the LDS
teachings on families. One Egyptian member, a convert from Islam, had
changed his name and identity that he would not suffer the penalty for becoming
a Latter-day Saint. Sorry but this building represents more than a 'coming
together'. To the Muslim world(beyond the borders of America) it has a broader
meaning of conquest and the continuing struggle to bring that about. Wonder how the Missionaries would be received in that suburb of Detroit?
Ever since this issue arose I thought it was petty and trite. Mormons
constantly face battles over temple building due in large part to bias against
the religion. I don't care what religion you are or what it teaches, you have
the absolute right to build what you want on your own property. Are we so
forgetful we don't remember our own Main Street battle here in SL and how much
time the mayor wasted in dividing the city?So many people have
posted on here that they fear sharia law, as if it somehow will become the
constitution.. well, you know, a lot of people take issue with LDS doctrine of
work for the dead, and feel that doctrine will one day mean everyone in the
history books will be classified as Mormon. Yet those who know that is not true
believe all of these other biases and whine and complain that their temple
building is challenged. I agree with the scholar and Hatch on this
one. Besides, as was already pointed out, mosques were already a part of the
Wtc destroyed on Sept.11, and Muslim prayers performed in the prayer room
@Instereo: You ask:'What LDS people need to do is ask themselves "What
would Jesus do?"'Would Jesus build a building that would incite
such passionate debate in such a controversial place or would he say, let's be
sensitive to those who may object and look elsewhere? He would seek the way of
peace and not contention.Based on the fact that the LDS Church has
moved numerous chuch buildings including temples and gone ahead with plans only
after common ground has been met why would a different standard apply here?
at freedomfighter Reread my post: "While they are children of
Abraham, Muslims need to purge themselves of their radical element if they ever
hope to become accepted in the mainstream. The silence of the majority of
Muslims to acts of violence and hate against Christians, Jews, and any other
non-Muslim speaks volumes."Maybe I should have said that the
radical minority should be purged or at least condemned and not condoned by
silence if Muslims hope to be viewed as a "religion of peace" instead
of accepted in mainstream. The difference between radical
Islam/Islam and a radical LDS group/LDS Church is that the LDS Church leadership
would speak out vehimently and distance themselves explicitly from radicals
going so far as to excommunicate said radicals, if needed, to ensure that a
small minority doesn't represent the majority. I wish it was the same with
Islam and it's radical minority.@atl134 Casting shadows can also be
a figurative meaning not literal. It is interesting that debris from the planes
that were crashed into the WTC hit and damaged the building proposed to be torn
down to create Park51. For me that is too close.
Thank you Instereo and Bob1971 ant other like commentators for standing up for
open mindedness and fairness. Many of the commentators here make us Mormons
sound like bigotted islmophobes - that is not what Christ taught. What about
Ted Kennedy's assistance with getting that steeple issues on the Boston Temple
resolved in our behalf? We need more open minded and Christlike people from our
Mormon culture to stand agaist bigotry. While I don't always agree with Orrin
Hatch, if he supported the building of the Islamic center in New York the cudos
to him and I agree with him. Mitt Romney is only interested in giving mouth
service to Religion. His real interest in in the Presidency and power!. As a
Mormon, I will have to look closely at Mitt's real intentions. I can not say
that I will vote for him just because he is a Mormon.
Okay, so the LDS'should support the Mosque at ground zero. Is that for
'unity'.Then why do some past-presidential contenders not support
even the thought of having a "Mormon" run for president. I am sorry,
but it works both ways. Such comments counter to what the LDS believe become
issue. It is a personal offense to invite themselves to build the
Mosque at ground zero with those families whose loved ones were killed in the
attack on 9/11 by that same place their family members died. Is that like
rubbing salt in their wounds? There surely must be another place
where the controversial Mosque can be built, drawing less attention to the
wounds still left by the deep crater left in the place of the Twin Towers.
The answer to the question "should Mormons support Muslims?" as posed
by the article is yes - over and over again. Of all people, we Mormons
absolutely should understand what Muslims are going through, both because of
extremists within their own religion who are are such a tiny fraction of the
minority yet are tainting the whole, and because of lack of understanding by
those outside of Islam who are allowing stereotypes and fringes to define
Muslims in general.As Mormons, we have the responsibility to seek
learning and understanding of "things both in heaven and in the earth, and
under the earth; things which have been, things which are, things which must
shortly come to pass; things which are at home, things which are abroad; the
wars and the perplexities of the nations, and the judgments which are on the
land; and a knowledge also of countries and of kingdoms"(D&C 88:79)Every Mormon I have known who has kept this commandment in regards to
Islam has gained nothing but respect and reverence for the true nature of the
religion practiced by our Muslim brothers and sisters.
@MoJulesHave you read no blog posts in Deseret News how Hispanics
migrating north are being vilified by so called Christians? Justice? Yes. Mercy?
Never. Same argument. Refer to all undocumented Hispanics living in Utah as drug
dealers. Call all Muslims Jihadists. Get rid of "those people". Get
rid of them all is the cry of Christians and non Christians alike. Ignorance, intolerance and emotion seem to be overwhelming education, Godly
service and common sense.
Ron Hilton, I was going to say the same thing, the Mormon church would not dream
of building a temple near the Mt Meadow. So, for years the world
has thought that Mormons were polygamists, and we have constantly said, no we
are not, we do not embrace that practice and those that do are excommunicated
from the Mormon church. What is the difference in asking the Muslims to do that
with the extremists? I agree 100% about not building the mosque
near ground zero, and I would not condone the LDS church building a temple near
Mt Meadow. I agree that most Muslims in our country are good people and are
getting a bad rap, just like most Mormons on Sept. 11, 1857 were good people.
Oh, and Stephen Prothero used some really tasteless tactics to get
his point across. We learn from the past, we don't hold on to it and re hash
it, be it slavery, the treatment of the Mormons. But Sept 11, 2001 is the
present, it isn't even ten years yet. Also, it seems that the LDS church had
property for a temple in Harrison NY, it wasn't built.
@Say No to BO"Apologists for Islam always speak as though mainstream
Muslims are peaceful and tolerant; that only the fringe are a problem."Even Glenn Beck estimated that only 10% of them are radical. Heck a poll
once showed that 13% of tea party supporters believe violence against the
current gov't is acceptable. @Ron Hilton"Whether or not
Muslims have a legal right to build a mosque a Ground Zero, it would be at
the very least insensitive, and at worst a deliberate provocation."There was a mosque in the world trade center (17th floor).
in some countries there is no other way of life accepted such as in the middle
east. and its not just mormon missionaries that are banned its the practicing of
any other kind of religeon except Islam or Muslim and if they do not want any
other religeon in their country then it is they're right to have it that way. I
have no use for the LDS religeon and that is my right to have it that way also.
if you desire to be LDS then more power to you. the world is not for just one
its for many.
@garysticht"We absolutely do not need to support the Mosque that
would cast a shadow over the memorial at the WTC."You don't
know what NYC looks like do you... something two blocks away isn't even
visible.@AmPatriot"However, you can compare it with every
form of government that exist or has ever existed. Islam can be compared to
Marxism, Czars, Rulers, despotism, socialism, Monarchy's, democracy's, and
Obama, but the thing it is not is a religion."Like Mormonism
(hey if you're going to pretend Islam is a gov't I'm going to pretend the same
with the United Order).@Max"Mormons can't support things
they are against just because they too were persecuted. "True,
a better reason would be that Americans should support this mosque if they care
about the Constitution.@Annalaurab"I still do not think
that this building should be on ground zero. Why not build it a few blocks
away?"It is being built a few blocks away.
insterio"What would Jesus do?" He would inspire honorable men
to set up a constitution that would promote the individual over the state, and
shout from the rooftops that liberty is an inalienable right that comes from
God.As for comparisons between Mormons and Muslims...there aren't many. I
don't see the LDS church inciting its members to jihad, rather, I see the LDS
faith promoting the observance of the commandments of Christ.
Insterio, you said " LDS people neglect other "moral" issues like
health care, immigration, or education." The Mormon church teaches self
reliance, and so most people who do not rely on government are able to pay for
their own health care, they do not ask the tax payers to do that. There are
some that can't and they get medicaid. We are taught to obey the laws of the
land, and there is a big difference between illegal immigration and legal
immigration, the Mormon church very much supports legal immigration. As for
Education, I personally think public education is terrible and if I could have
afforded it, I would not have had my daughter in there. I also do not like that
we are paying their salary and especially for teachers that do a poor job. But
as for obtaining education, the LDS church strongly teaches that we should get
an eduction. Jonathan Eddy, please tell me where you found this that you
wrote about? "We write on blogs like this how worthless some people are
and they need to be obliterated from our neighborhoods." Boy, I didn't see
that written and I read all the prior comments
While I understand the concerns that many anti-NYC mosque proponents hold, I
seriously doubt that Muslims will be successful in establishing Shari'a law.
The constitution states that no law shall be created respecting an establishment
of religion. So chill out, no worries.
Whether or not Muslims have a legal right to build a mosque a Ground Zero, it
would be at the very least insensitive, and at worst a deliberate provocation. A
better analogy would be if the Mormon church wanted to build an LDS temple at
Mountain Meadow. A small memorial to honor the victims and make clear that the
perpetrators did not represent Islam would be a more appropriate gesture. But
the mosque and the motives of those wishing to build it are very suspect.
@Meg...How would that same conversation go in Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia. It
would never happen. Even in Egypt the Christians are in danger right now and
were driven out of Lebanon years ago."A prophet, an angel,
revelation, new scripture and polygamy."Commonalities? Surely, and this can also be said of Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob,
Solomon and David as well. All considered Prophets of God by Jews and Christians
alike.A bit of a phony attachment by the lecturer.So, do
we now say the Israelites and Muslums have common distinctions? Of course, they
both revere Moses and Abraham, strict diet etc.. Other than that, how are they
getting on these days?Do Mormons and Muslums have the same World
view? Sharia law, Infedels, death to Apostates, HonorKillings, Womens
place, Caliphate etc?Does being sensitive to Ground Zero
automatically make you Anti Muslum? Can one even disagree anymore without
political correctness ruling the day?Please vistit Europe and see
what how Muslums have melded in with Western Civilization.Let us
hope and pray that the moderate Muslums will win the day as the Consensus.
However, to be naive as to the goals and aims of radicals is perilous.
This should be an irrelevant discussion. There is evil in the hearts of some
Muslims. There is evil in the hearts of some Christians. There is evil in the
hearts of some Mormons. Most acts of terrorism in this country are committed by
white allegedly Christian males. It is time for Americans to recognize the
contributions of Muslims to our world. As Mormons, you seek out the approval of
the mainstream religious communities yet insist on your uniqueness. I am amused
to see some rationalize their disdain by over analyzing what Islam is. It
parrots the mainstream rhetoric about Mormons being Christian. You should offer
a hand of friendship and demonstrate tolerance to all people or embrace
@AmPatriot"First of all, lets get one thing straight, Islam or
Muslims are not a religion and cannot be compared to or with any other religion
in the world that exist or has ever existed, not even Mormonism."First of all, I do not know why you bother distinguishing between islam and
muslims. A muslim is a follower of islam. If you did not know the word islam
means 'submission to god' or 'peace' or 'way to peace' if I remember correctly.
Secondly I am amazed at your audacity when asserting that islam is
"not a religion". Islam is undeniably a religion. The sharia is a set
of laws, but how is that different from all the commandments given in the bible?
The cultural center/mosque should be allowed. Even if you believe it
is in poor taste, in America we uphold the right to offend. If we can allow the
WBC to protest at the funerals of our nations heroes then we can allow the
cultural center/mosque to be built.
Mountain Meadow Massacer, members being tared and feathered - how much are we
different. We tend to forget where we came from and our own history. The people
hated the Mormons most likely were ignorant of what we beleived in, most likely
never read the Book of Morman and did not know a Mormon personaly. How many of
us have read the Koran, know a Muslim or know their beleifs. Islam is as much in
harmony with us as Mormans as are the Baptist and Catholics. Mountain Medow was
caused by a rogue group not representing the church and its idiology. Muslims
are Gods children, they are out brothers and sisters, they are as spirtual as we
are and just as human. The author made a good comment.Are we more republican
than Mormon and are we really on Gods side.
Perhaps this Muslim center should be built right there close to ground Zero as
an offering of reconciliation, peace and forgiveness. Such a building could say
to radicals from all tendencies, that people from all cultures and religions can
and want to live together. Such a Muslim Center perhaps would represent a slap
on the face of those extremist that have kidnapped the civilized Islam and a
slap to those in the Christian right, and Jewish right who live by fear,
paranoia and condemnation of those who dare to be different. The Golden years of
peaceful association between Jews, Muslims and Christians took place in Spain
between 800 AD and 1492 AD under Moorish rule. When Christians took over they
expelled all those who didn't convert to their faith and five hundred years
later we are still fighting.A Muslim Center near ground Zero that welcomes
Jews, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, atheists, seems like a step on the right
direction.A Beacon of acceptance and multiculturalism.
You people also realize that the Pentagon was hit during 9/11 as well, and there
is a mosque INSIDE THE PENTAGON. No one complains of that one being
inappropriate. I see no reason why anyone should want to stop the building of a
community center in an old Burlington Coat Factory building. People,
you are ridiculous.
When it comes to Islam, the problem is not faith. The problem is politics. Islam
mixes politics and belief into an amalgam that makes it hard to have one without
the other. ___________________You say that like
Christianity doesn't do the same exact thing....
Mitt Romney is against the 9/11 Mosque, not because he's a Mormon, but because
he's a politician.Mormon believe members of any religion should be
able to worship "how, where, or what they may."
@garystichtBTW, you have also shown your ignorance is saying that
Islam is not of Abraham. Islam, Judaism, and Christianity are all Abrahamic
religions. Judaism and Christianity believe they come from the line of Issac.
Muslims believe they come from Ishmael. The Koran teaches for this reason that
Muslims, Christians, and Jews are all "brothers of the book" and
should therefore help one another.
I am a Mormon and I have supported the construction of this mosque since day
one. I am suprised and disappointed by how many LDS members are opposed to this
mosque. From the comments on this board, it appears that many
Mormons (1) insist on blaming all Muslims for the terrorist acts committed by a
small minority of fundamentalist, extremist Muslims, (2) insist on applying
negative, inaccurate stereotypes to the Muslim religion as a whole, and (3)
refuse to see how closely this mirrors the public perception problems with
Mormons in the United States. During Romney's 2008 presidential
campaign, I often read comments like the following:"I will
support religious freedom for Mormons as soon as they allow me in their
temples.""Mormon men treat women horribly, and are allowed
to marry multiple under-age wives.""Mormonism is a cult
determined to take over the government."It seems the same
arguments are being used by some Mormons against Muslims. How can we demand
tolerance from our society, and treat others with such intolerance?
@JLFuller: "Islam mixes politics and belief into an amalgam that makes it
hard to have one without the other."You got that right, JL.
Further, Islam's mix of politics (Sharia Law) and belief is a handy mechanism
that provides plausible deniability. They can claim to be a benign, loving
religion while at the same time support world slavery and terrorism.And that mix of politics and belief is extremely dangerous for the survival of
our America. We honor the rule of separation of church and state enshrined in
our Constitution. Yet, with Islam the two are the same. And, as we speak,
certain Muslim communities in America are demanding that they be ruled by Sharia
which means that the church and state separation is being minimized and shoved
@garysticht "While we preach the gospel to all the world we do not do
so with a sword in hand saying, 'Join us or die.'"You have no
idea what you're talking about. I have studied Islam extensively, have personal
friends who are Muslim, and have even visited both mosques in Salt Lake and
talked with the Imams. You are WRONG, and it frightens me that so many people
liked your comment. Islam is a religion of peace. Yes, skeptics, it is. Let me ask you this, if 2% of Mormons became violent with gays, should I
believe that the LDS faith supports that? Absolutely not. The teachings of LDS
leaders and the majority of peaceful Mormons would show that this fringe group
does not really understand their faith. Islam is the same. As a
Mormon myself, I suggest we stop listening to what the news has to say and start
going out to meet and friend Muslims ourselves.
We can not seperate ourselves from history and say as Mormons, things are
different. The speaker is right. We had our Mountain Medow Massacer, we are
exclussive about who we let into our temples, we have had to fight off hatred
and misunderstandings, all from people who knew nothing about our religion nor
had they read the Book of Mormon. I suggest that we put a mirror in front of
ourselves, we may see a people who have not read the Koran, who never met a
muslim and never tried to seperate the religious beliefs from the actions of
individuals. Muslim teachings are in harmony with Mormon teachings just as much
as are the Baptists and Catholics. They teach love of God, doing good deeds and
raising a good family. The author is right, we may br so caught up in politics,
being a republican that we forget to ask ouselves, "are we on gods
side". Muslims are Gods children and our brothers and sisters, any venom
against them is not from God.
Supporting the RIGHT to do something that demonstrates extremely bad taste, and
is offensive to many, is not the same as supporting the offensive ACTION
itself.While those building this mosque apparently have the right to
do so, it is extremely offensive to many people, and those behind it do
themselves no favor in enacting this poorly-made decision.
The missing part in this discussion is the millions of peaceful Muslims whose
deafening silence in defense of the true nature of their beliefs is drowned out
by the radicals. We only heard token condemnation of 9-11. We hear no
condemnation when radical Muslims massacre innocent children. Even the so-called
moderate American Imams seem to ignore the human waste caused by radicals.
Mormons had a Mountain Meadows. Muslims have bombings in Israel, the use of
weapons of mass destruction against different ethnic groups, September 11, the
Lockerbie bombing, Fort Hood, USS Cole, 1984 Marine Barracks, etc The perception
of Islam will change when its own members take their own religion back and
consistently and publically cry freedom and denounce the violence. The status of
Islam will change when Imams stop preaching Sharia and inferiority of others and
start condemning violence not just in America but also in Muslim countries
around the world.
It'll be interesting to see what happens if an issue ever comes along in which
religion can't be twisted enough to rationalise it to our republican thinking,
which comes first. There have been some interesting, thoughtful posts to this
article but I don't think this issue is enough to see a separation of church and
Most Middle Eastern and Southeastern Asian Muslims I know are good people. If
you try to get to know them they are some of the friendliest people around.
Unfortunatly it is the fringe nut jobs that taint the public perception to the
negative. Not that I want to see us in another war, but we should support those
in Libyia tryting to overthrough their dictator. It's their own revelotionary
war; a war in which we ourselves recieved some help from the outside (France).
To compare the discussion about Mormans in 1904 and muslims now is absurd and
just proves that ignorance and appeasement can be dangerous when we continue to
ignore the muslim problem in the world....not Morman problem.
Regardless of religious or political viewpoint, we are all guilty of falling for
the propaganda of hate. Just look at what is happening in the world today. Is
there any individual or group that isn't showing some form of
"justifiable" animosity toward another individual, nation, religion or
group? We all "rightfully" hate in the name of Christianity, national
pride, party affiliation, you name it. There is always a well founded reason to
wipe a person or a nation of people off of the face of the map. We
go to church on Sunday and preach a gospel of peace, but on Monday we write on
blogs like this how worthless some people are and they need to be obliterated
from our neighborhoods. The people of Utah are not free from blame. Let's keep
passing new laws that legally justify no compassion for "law breakers"
and let's see how acceptable our offering are before our Creator. We are all
hypocrites and we had better change our ways in a hurry or we will be the next
group of people to be justifiably hated.
How silly, comparing the Muslim 1.5 billion to Mormon's 13 million. Yes they
certainly need our help. Mitt Romney, Harry Reed, Donny and Marie? Is that how
us Mormon's are viewed, how nice, I thought it was Big Love, the Mountain
Meadows Massacre movie, derogatory comments in the op ed sections of newspapers
and the oh you're one of them comments I have received once in awhile that
signaled the end of a friendship or interview. I don't imagine that our support
will do Muslims much good.
When it comes to Islam, the problem is not faith. The problem is politics. Islam
mixes politics and belief into an amalgam that makes it hard to have one without
the other. Few condemn Muslims for their particular belief in God even if they
call Him by another name. The problem is with those Muslims who put politics
before their faith. For Muslims who put faith before politics, I doubt they are
the people Congress is concerned with.
A few weeks after 9/11, our Relief Society invited the women of the local
Islamic Center to lunch and a discussion about Mormon and Muslim beliefs. We
had a wonderful time together, and we learned a lot about the things we share in
common. Perhaps in a time of increasing viciousness, it is a good idea to build
bridges rather than walls.
Here's the crux of the article "I think these Mormon Republican people in
power are more Republicans than they are Mormons," As an LDS
member who came from Ohio as a republican to Utah, I quickly learned politics is
worn on many LDS sleeves. I think the thing most interesting is how because
Republicans don't believe in abortion or gay marriage, LDS people neglect other
"moral" issues like health care, immigration, or education. Sure there are explainations for why they believe as they do like "It's
against the law, period" or it costs to much or privatization and free
enterprise will solve everything. I wonder though if the Savior they claim who
restored the gospel would sanction their policies that seem to favor the rich at
the expense of the poor. What LDS people need to do is ask
themselves "What would Jesus do?" They need to do this not just with
"moral" issues like abortion but in issues that involved
interpretations of the constitution or with political policies.
Why aren't more Mormons speaking out?"I think these Mormon Republican
people in power are more Republicans than they are Mormons," Prothero said.
"If they took the time to see themselves as at least as Mormon as they are
Republican they would do the right thing. They are more faithful to their
Republican politics than they are to their Mormon faith."This
author is the reason why Mitt Romney will likely never be the President of the
United States. Mormons in Utah can elect Mormons in Utah to represent their
people and the representative can give faithful representation. As the President
of the US Mitt Romney will never be elected if he puts his Mormon faith over the
politics that got him elected. I just don't understand my fellow Mormons. Our
faith is not the monopoly on great politics and it is not the monopoly on true
morals sent from the divine. Open up and see the world for what it is we don't
have all the answers and the monopoly and good decisions. Republican,
Independent, or Democrat serve your party and your country and not your faith or
Wow,This scholar is really trying to twist facts and manipulate the
mormons into supporting the building of a Muslim temple/ymca. The
support for building a temple/mosque in NYC does not determine whether or not
you support the rights of a religious minority. How ludicrous. I remember Mormon
church building permits being turned down because the neighbors did not want a
temple built in their neighborhood. Where was the muslim support? The
mormons quietly retreated and either found another spot to build their temple or
they waited and did community outreach.The Muslim community would do
well to see what the Mormon church does in terms of community outreach in
communities where they want to build a mosque.The islamic faith is
not a religious minotiry, they are a world religion, unlike the mormon faith
that is very North America-centric. The islam world should support the american
muslims. And by the way, I'm pretty sure Mr. Romney supports Muslims
rights to worship freely (as long as that does not go against anyone else's
religious/human rights - i.e. no sharia law)Sorry Mr Prothero, you
have it all wrong
While it's surely useful to note commonalities when examining two or more
things, it's at least equally important to note differences, which is why we
admonish kindergartners to "compare and contrast."This DN
piece, yet another editorial disguised as an objective news story, does the
former, but fails at the latter, as does the hero of the narrative, Dr.
Prothero.The professor laments that Islam lacks admirable celebrity
adherents, or at least those which are inoffensive. I can think of a couple -
Muhammad Ali, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - but I wouldn't insist that these two better
define Islam than, say, Osama bin Laden. It's not non-Muslims' fault that bin
Laden is the face of Islam, though, as Prothero contends. Rather it's the fault
of Islam itself for repeatedly glorifying and urging the slaughter of
non-Muslims in its holy book. It's also the fault of the majorities of a slew
of Muslim countries, who, opinion research proves, resoundingly approve of
terror.Mormons and Muslims are widely disliked religious minorities.
The former hasn't murdered my countrymen en masse, unlike the latter. That's
the difference that matters the most.
Is building a mosque at ground zero showing sensitivity to the families of all
Americans who died on 9/11? That is the crux of the problem. Why should the
LDS church support an insensitive proposal? I would think and hope that the LDS
church supports Muslims on things that are good and of benefit to all.
I have a lot of respect for many Muslims and have many as friends but I still do
not think that this building should be on ground zero. Why not build it a few
blocks away? It's not the building itself I have an issue with but rather the
location of it.
Apologists for Islam always speak as though mainstream Muslims are peaceful and
tolerant; that only the fringe are a problem.So, how come LDS missionaries
aren't allowed in most middle-Eastern countries?We're in Russia, for
crying out loud. Why not Saudi Arabia?Our Marines have died in an effort
to bring them democracy, and they haven't done it.There's a serious
disconnect here, and professors giving speeches are not going to remedy it.
As atl34 said, this was(is) to be more of a community rec center that is to help
teach tolerance and understanding. In studying world religions, I found the
Mormon faith to be more closely aligned to that of the Muslim faith than almost
any other religion be it Catholicism, protestanism, eastern mysticism, and even
the Community of Christ (former RLDS). How far away from Ground Zero would it
have to be for it to be acceptable to you?
I don't have as strong opinions about the building as garysticht, but I do agree
with him about the influence of the radical muslims. If the "silent
majority" of muslims have different motivations from radicals, we don't
hear much about it. There have been discussions from non-radicals on NPR, but
national public radio isn't as sensationalistic in their presentation as Fox
news so such discussions aren't heard by many.The Judeao-Christian
group of people have a violent past as well as the muslim religion if you take
the Old Testament as your guide for religion--David was a warrior king who
killed a lot of people, when the Israelites came into Canaan they were
instructed to kill everyone who wasn't Israelite. A few centuries after the
Nicean creed, Christianity existed with the sword. But this hasn't been
encouraged for many centuries now.Because the less radical muslims
don't talk much, we tend to fear all muslims.
I have carefully studied this issue because I lived and worked in an African
country under Sharia law. I saw muslim slaves (one of the slavers offered to
buy my American female assistant for seven horses), how they treated women, ran
their businesses, etc. Then for 18 years taught the children of non muslim
refugees from muslim countries. Their stories of persecution make Haun's Mill
seem tame. I have studied the Koran and the additional writings that are
accepted as holy law. I have read the writings of the man behind the NY masque
(especially those published for muslims in other countries) and he is on a
crusade to turn America into a Sharia based nation and believes he has been
chosen to begin a Granada like condition in the US (Granada Moorish Spain had
all Jews and Christians as slaves building the Iberian Calipha) So this
scholar's plea for Mormon support should be taken with a bucket of salt.
Well said, Graystitch. Muslims live the Sharia law, which states that anyone
who is not Muslim has no rights - not even a right to live. Muslim women are
treated like chattel, and if one of the wives displeases her husband, she can be
severely beaten, disfigured or killed. They can have up to four wives.
The scholar who wrote this article appears not to be familiar with Mormon
or Muslim teachings. He says Mormons should support a mosque built in the
shadows of the 9/11 disaster because they have a lot in common with Muslims. He
says that Mormons used to be persecuted but now have become part of the
mainstream religion so they should understand the mosque. Really? I think
not! When Muslims have won a battle in the name of Jihad, they
build a mosque on the site of that battle as a sign of victory in the name of
Allah. To allow a mosque to be built there would denigrate the memory of the
victims who died there while proclaiming victory to the ones who murdered them.
No, Mormons should never support a mosque on that site.
Mormons can't support things they are against just because they too were
"Prothero was surprised and disappointed that Mormons didn't seem to be
supporting the rights of another religious minority...."Well,
what can I say in defense? It seems that many Mormons these are more influenced
by Fox News than by Joseph Smith, who said,"If it has been
demonstrated that I have been willing to die for a Mormon, I am bold to declare
before Heaven that I am just as ready to die in defending the rights of a
Presbyterian, a Baptist, or a good man of any other denomination; for the same
principle which would trample upon the rights of the Latter-day Saints would
trample upon the rights of the Roman Catholics, or of any other
denomination" (History of the Church, 5:498).And let us not
forget that it is the blessings of Abraham that we strive for in our religion,
and his blessings include Ishmael. As for acceptance in the
mainstream, why would any Mormon ever, ever hold that out as something good?
Mainstream is Babylon which we've been told to flee without looking back.
The "scholar" doesn't get it. People with common sense would
understand, that this isn't about religion or attacking Islam per se. It's
about the Shari'a law, and getting the west to "submit" to Islam,
whether it takes 10 years or 100 years. They go to the heart of the west's
biggest and most important city, and establish their bulkhead. And in Detroit,
there are is an entire suburb dominated by muslims dedicated to shari'a law, and
where even local cops don't police anymore, and you can hear the "call to
prayer" over loudspeakers 4 times a day. That's what this is about; such
radically different cultures and beliefs, and values of shari'a that are
radically opposed to western judeo=christian values. The subjugation of women,
honor killings...have no place in our society, and the new york center, aside
from being breathtakingly insensitive following the 9-11 attacks, would seem to
say that that's ok. Well, Im not ok with that.
@garysticht--You are using the same argument anti-Mormons use against us. They
say we need to purge our religion of the FLDS who force their young girls to
marry older men. Our response: They hijacked our name, but they aren't us and we
don't control them. In the same way, radical Islam has hijacked true Islam and
the real Muslims can't do anything about it. Go to LDS.org and put
in the words Muslim and Islam. You will see many articles praising this faith
and telling us how to treat them. Then read the many recent talks on religious
freedom.The church, without mentioning that mosque, makes it clear
where God stands. Where God stands, I stand--so I support the mosque. We don't
move our temples and chapels unless forced to do so. Watch the battles we wage
to keep them where they are. They should hold their ground as well because we
could be next if the haters win this battle.
First of all, lets get one thing straight, Islam or Muslims are not a religion
and cannot be compared to or with any other religion in the world that exist or
has ever existed, not even Mormonism.However, you can compare it
with every form of government that exist or has ever existed. Islam can be
compared to Marxism, Czars, Rulers, despotism, socialism, Monarchy's,
democracy's, and Obama, but the thing it is not is a religion.And
like our constitution we love and honor it with religious fervor but like the
Muslim Koran, it is not a religious document we refer to as if it is a nameless
god. The Koran is a rule of law, rule of order document not to be confused with
love and kindness we expect from a god or holy man.And this document
that the United States rules itself by is the law of the land contrary to Muslim
government rules. Our constitution and laws prohibits any other form of
government to set rule of law and rule of order.
The only problem with this argument is that the LDS Church has never taught the
destruction of all other religions to acheive its desire of one faith, one Lord,
one baptism. While we preach the gospel to all the world we do not do so with a
sword in hand saying, "Join us or die." If someone choses to leave
the faith we are not bound by honor to kill that person as a heretic. LDS
Temples and Churches are moved or redesigned to be sensitive to the desires of
local residences. We absolutely do not need to support the Mosque that would
cast a shadow over the memorial at the WTC.While they are children
of Abraham, Muslims need to purge themselves of their radical element if they
ever hope to become accepted in the mainstream. The silence of the majority of
Muslims to acts of violence and hate against Christians, Jews, and any other
non-Muslim speaks volumes.No, Mormons should not support such a
An open community center with cooking classes and basketball courts. Frankly
this is like what I guess i'll call a YMMA. I mean, if the concern is over
"radical islam" what you should want muslims to build is everybody's
welcome type community centers like this one anyway.