Comments about ‘My view: Does the punishment fit the crime?’

Re: ". . . comparison of illegal immigration to traffic violations both of which are civil, not criminal infractions."

Though the open borders crowd likes to recite this as an article of faith, illegal entry is not a civil offense -- it's a crime, just like any other.

Title 8, US Code, section 1325 provides, as punishment for a first offense, that the offender "be fined under [the US criminal code] or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both." It raises the crime to a 2-year felony for subsequent offenses.

Since most long-time illegal Utah residents have illegally crossed the border more than once, they are felons.

Only those illegals caught at the border are subjected to the civil penalty, to attempt to recoup the expenses of their deportation without lengthy, expensive trials.

All Utah illegal aliens are guilty of a crime.

Facts are a stubborn thing.

While not always clear, compassion is the foundation principle of virtually every major religion, both Christian and non-Christian alike.
When a jewish rabbi known for his mastery of Torah was challenged to enunciate the law, he responded by saying, simply, "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow." All else, he said, was commentary.

To honestly cite the 12th Article of Faith of the LDS church as divine sanction for the unconditional purging from our country of 12 million or so undocumented human beings is to me shocking.

If such thinking is truly typical of the level of LDS theology (and I hope it is not), I would question the value of having LDS missionaries anywhere.

On the other hand, if this kind of thinking is inconsistent with what LDS church membership should be about, then why not say so?

During a committee debate this month a representative paused halfway through his presentation to reveal a conflict of interest he had just realized he had on the bill. Now that doesn't bother me at all. It was a simple oversight and he corrected it as soon as thought of it. No on else in the room seemed upset by it. No one or no process was hurt.

But the fact remains that up to the time he admitted his conflict he had been committing a class B misdemeanor. That is the same level of criminality assigned to overstaying a visa or crossing the border without papers.

Now, let's have both sides look at reliable statistics on immigration:

1. How do legal immigrants affect our economy?
2. Are legal immigrants more or less law-abiding than natural born citizens?
3. How do legal immigrants affect our culture?

Then ask the same about undocumented residents. With some consensus on these issues we can decide:

1. Whether and how much to change current law.
2. How to deal with undocumented residents.

One more question: Do poverty and corruption in Mexico qualify some as refugees?

Laws are written for a purpose. Showing compassion to one group shows a lack of compassion to other.

Those overseas waiting to come here illegally, over 100,000 Utahns out of work, Utah workers who have their wages depressed, and subsidize business that break the laws, those with stolen identities, victims of crime. Where is their compassion?

A person here illegally is breaking multiple laws and committing multiple felonies.

It's unethical to take jobs from Utahns, and give them to foreign citizens. The moral justifications that those who support illegal immigration use are down right disturbing.

Don't compare religious persecution with breaking immigration laws to get a higher wage.

If poverty and corruption qualifies the offenders then there are about 4 billion in the world who qualify. Don't be an offender, just come legally.

What "punishment" is being proposed?

When a police officer pulls me over for speeding, decides not to write a ticket, and instead just tells me to slow down, have I been "punished?" Of course not.

In like manner, requiring illegal aliens to leave our nation is NOT "punishment". It is merely bringing an end to the violation of our laws.

We are not generally shipping people home to Cuba or other communist dictatorships. We have laws for those legitimately seeking refuge or asylum. But the vast majority of illegal aliens are not fleeing possible genocide or religious or political persecution. The grass is just a little greener on this side of the river than the other and obeying or laws seems too much of a bother.

And there are a couple BILLION people in the world living in far worse conditions than exist in most of latin america.

Finally, let us remember that illegally entering (repeatedly in many cases) or remaining in our nation is only the first of many legal and moral offenses. ID fraud/theft is common. Driving without insurance, license, or registration. Not paying ER bills.

Let's be honest in this discussion.

Re: "To honestly cite the 12th Article of Faith . . . as divine sanction for the unconditional purging from our country of 12 million . . . is to me shocking."

It's hard to believe one can be truly shocked by an injunction to obey the law. But, perhaps it'll relieve your sense of shock to note that the 12th Article is not much different from the requirement of Numbers 15:15 -- "One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you . . . ."

Probably for the reason stated in Proverbs 5:10 -- "Lest strangers be filled with thy wealth; and thy labours be in the house of a stranger."

Not even the Bible's prohibition of oppressing strangers requires that they be offered full rights of citizenship.

Truly shocking is liberal disregard of the law that places us in the position of having 12 million undocumented humans in our midst.

Together with the argument that we incur some obligation to them -- beyond kindness and decency in the deportation process -- because of their illegal conduct.

"But is it just to refuse to consider their mitigating circumstances when we do so for hardened criminals? Does the punishment fit the "'crime?'" - Article

I think you're onto something. As a poor slob I think my robbing of the bank down the street should fall in this category. After all, I needed the money. I'm not a hardened criminal. I think my punishment should be a reprimand and I get to keep the loot... not unlike the illegal who gets to stay. Fair is fair.

@John C. C.:

"How do legal immigrants affect our economy?"

They are taking jobs that unemployed Americans need.

"Are legal immigrants more or less law-abiding than natural born citizens?"

Law abiding means keeping laws. Crossing the border without permission is not law abiding. And, getting a job when it's against federal law is not law abiding. And using a fake ID is not law abiding.

"How do legal immigrants affect our culture?"

They bringing their language with them. And America has to accommodate.

"Whether and how much to change current law."

Immigration laws don't need to be changed. If a foreigner wants to immigrate they get the papers and fill them out, meet the other requirements, and get in line. But right now we don't need immigrants. We have no work for them.

"How to deal with undocumented residents."

Deportation.

"One more question: Do poverty and corruption in Mexico qualify some as refugees?"

There's poverty and corruption around the world. We can't take them all in. We don't have the space of the resources. Our government is broke. We can't help them with housing, education, health care, etc.

@RRB, you make an interesting case. It's true that illegal immigrants directly and indirectly cause harm to legal residents in a number of ways.

There are two mitigating factors that I think you should consider. In the first place, not all things are equal. If all people stood on equal footing with each other, then it becomes very easy to enter into a certain fellow-feeling with a person who has been wronged by another equal. Adam Smith wrote about this sort of thing in his book, "The Theory of Moral Sentiments." When the poor, in desperation, take from the wealthy, this has long been viewed as a pitiable circumstance that should temper justice. That's how we get legends like Robin Hood, and it's also a major theme in Victor Hugo's writings.

This leads to another point: The immigrant does not act from a sense of malice. For the most part, he does not harm us with intent.

The Christian plank of Charity stands in opposition to Justice. It recognizes that sometimes, when someone takes our coat, we should give them our cloak too.

Good article. However there are many cold hearted people in America and the trend seems to be getting worse. Nevertheless it is good that voices of compassion are raised.

We are judged by the ruler we use. When judgements come and they always do, and the cry for compassion or amnesty is raised, the way people behave now will determine what happens then.

Illegal immigration (entry) carries a fine, jail time and deportation. Most of the time the fine and jail time are not given. That's compassion.

Is it right for a person to cross the border, and steal what another person is waiting for in their own country?

Is it right for someone to cross a border and take a job formerly belonging to a citizen of that country?

pmccombs A person who comes here illegally knows full well what they are doing. Just as a person who steals property does. A person who steals property does not mean another person malice, but they do deprive them of their possessions.

Countries have a right to protect their borders and their citizens job. ALL countries do this, even Mexico, who is build a border on the south.

The Christian plank of lawbreaking, lying and coveting seem to be lost in the illegal immigration discussion. Compassion is given on a personal basis. The law is for everyone to follow.