DTanner,OH, my bad. Calling their "creeds" an abomination
is so much better!Saying such a thing would be like saying God has
an intense aversion, loathing and detestation of your Articles of faith and your
sacred Temple ceremonies.It would be like saying God greatly
dislikes and abhors your Book of Mormon, D&C, and Pearl of Great Price
because they are vile, shameful, and detestable.Are you seriously
going to try to make Joseph Smith's horrible statements sound good?Really?I thought LDS believed in truth and honesty.By
the way, I am not "anti-Mormon". I am married to a very active Mormon.
I attend Church regularly and count several Mormons among my good friends. Just
because I believe Mormons to be wrong and deluded does not mean I am
"anti-Mormon." It just means I think they are wrong and deluded.
Deucy and DSB,I did not write a single "loathing and
hateful" thing about a person who is a member of the LDS Church. I
certainly never mentioned any "low-down hypocritical Mormons", much
less said I found such critters in Provo.Where did you two get all
all that nonsense from?But while we are on the topic, it is
noteworthy that DSB condemns those who judge the Church by "a few bad
apples". Jesus said "Ye shall know them by their fruits... A good tree
cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good
fruit."How, then, can the "good tree" of Mormonism
bring forth any corrupt fruit at all?And most importantly, do you
both deny that Talmage's book is considered like secondary scripture to Mormons?
It is studied carefully by LDS missionaries. It is not from the correct sources
and is filled with falsehoods."Learn about Mormonism from
Mormons", you say, but you also say "Learn about all other religions
from Mormons".So tell me, do your comments illustrate the
"good apples" or the "bad apples" of Mormondom?If you think this a waste of time, adieu to you.
Vanka:As do most anti-mormons I have known, you misquote Mormon
beliefs to make your point.Your quote: "Around 50,000 Mormon
missionaries circle the globe telling people about how all other religions are
"an abomination" in the sight of God" The correct
quote is that their "CREEDS" were an abomination. Their creeds
describe the "Trinity", a belief held by most churches,but NOT found
in the Bible. This three-in-one concept of God is instead a result of Greek
Philosophy affecting the 4th century theologians thinking.John
8:17-1817-It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two
men is true. 18-I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent
me beareth witness of me.
Tommy2Shoes,As a Mormon covert from an Evangelical church, I'll vote for an
Evangelical in a heart beat. Find one that meets my needs and can win my party's
nomination. I'll vote for him or her. Why can't you do the same if the position
were reversed? Because as a Christian converted from Mormonism, I would
not vote for a Romney. He would be an effective tool for the Mormon
missionaries and the LDS church toward Christians unaware of Mormon doctrines.
I will vote for the person that I believe will best lead this wonderful country.
Lately we have been given poor choices from the major parties. Let's all stay
involved and help our respective parties nominate people of great intellect and
great love for our country and it's constitution. As a Mormon covert from an
Evangelical church, I'll vote for an Evangelical in a heart beat. Find one that
meets my needs and can win my party's nomination. I'll vote for him or her. Why
can't you do the same if the position were reversed?
To All: What is bad is that no one is going to win in this debate. Those who
are against the Church and its membership are not going to convince those of us
that it is wrong. Probably won't put any doubt in our minds either. So in
reality we are all wasting our time trying to voice a viewpoint that no one is
going to listen to or even take underadvisement.So these comment
boards are nothing but waste of time for critics and non-critics alike
Duecy friend - you find what you're looking for. If low-down hypocritical
Mormons was the focus of your searching, you would find them in California just
as Vanka finds them in Provo. I think my neighbors in Utah County are the salt
of the earth, and would give Vanka the shirt off their backs if she needed it,
as well as a few bucks and a ride to wherever she wanted to go, despite her
loathing and hateful attitude. But there's always a few bad apples, and if
someone judges an entire group based on the bad apples, I think it says more
about that person than the group.
The focus of my question has seemed to digress to a rant about the LDS religion.
While these comments can be made of almost any group as you will find those that
say one thing and then act another way. In my life experiences with many people
from many different religious backgrounds, I have never felt the same venom that
seems to be found in many of your remarks here. I have never had the experience
of having a Mormon tell me falsehoods about other religions. Maybe its the type
of Mormons I know versus who Vanka from Provo knows. Is this a Utah thing as my
experience doesn't support this same feeling.
You're right, Vanka.
?I hear Mormons claiming to be Christian all the time. They say
exactly what you have said to try and prove they are Christians.Let
me remind you what Jesus said about that:Matt7:21-23(paraphrased):"Many will say to me in that day,
Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out
devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? [We are Christians!]""And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from
me, ye that work iniquity."Just saying you are Christians does
not make it so.
washcomom,Your "profound" rules would be nice... IF
Mormons followed them.How many Mormons learn about Catholicism from
a Catholic? Very few. Instead, Mormons learn about Catholicism from Talmage's
horrible "anti-" book: "The Great Apostasy".How
many Mormons learn about Protestant religions by speaking with a qualified
representative of those religions? Very few. Instead, Mormons learn about other
religions from those who have defected from those religions and joined the
Mormon Church. These people badmouth their former religions - religions they
FAILED at - in LDS meetings almost every week.Around 50,000 Mormon
missionaries circle the globe telling people about how all other religions are
"an abomination" in the sight of God; how all other preachers and
professors of all other religions are "all corrupt" "teaching for
doctrines the commandments of men".So why the hypocrisy? Why do
Mormons say "If you want to know about Mormonism, ask a Mormon", but
then Mormons run around telling everyone falsehoods about all other religions?
Another thought is Mormons, who are Christians, wanting to be exalted isnt much
different from other Christians who want to be with God. In order to be with
God, we must become even as His is. God is an exalted, immortal being. For
behold, this is my work and my glory to bring to pass the immortality and
eternal life of man. Moses 1:39. Resurrection brings immortality. Exaltation
is eternal life. Both come to us by way of the atonement of Jesus Christ.Mormons and other Christians have much more in common than many may
realize. The language or terminology used to define similar beliefs and
practices might be different, but there is more that should bring us together
than drive us apart.There is much in the world already trying to
drive people apart which then tears families and the country apart, isn't it
better to work together to do those things that will strengthen individuals and
families that will then strengthen our country?
Part 2 of 2:Others worry about the LDS belief that we are all
children of God, this to include Lucifer. Isaiah asks Lucifer how he fell who
was son of the morning. Isaiah 14:12. If there is any parent who knows the
heartache and what it is like to have a wayward son rebel against him, it is God
the Father, then for Him to see another Son suffer for the sake of all His other
children whom He loves. He loves all His children.LDS believe 1
John 5:7. For there are three that bear record in Heaven, the Father, the Word,
and the Holy Ghost: and these three become One. For some, this means that
these three are one and the same. While for others when three become one, it
usually refers to one in thought, purpose, or they are united. It is what the
Savior prayed for while in Gethsemane. That the apostles and all those who
believe in Him, would be one, even as He and the Father are one. John 17.
Part 1 of 2: LDS believe in Jesus Christ in much the same way
others do. John 1:1. LDS also believe that Jesus Christ is the Word and that
from the beginning He was God and that He was with God the Father.Lorenzo Snows statement in thought isnt much different than what is quoted
with John 1:14. As man is now God once was. Means Jesus Christ, though He was
God, came to earth and took upon him a mortal body. Man on earth has a mortal
body. After the Savior was crucified, He was resurrected and received an
immortal body. Because He was resurrected and received an immortal body,
everyone else will also be resurrected and receive an immortal body. Hence, man
may become as He is.
Thank you for this, and for all of your comments. I cherish the opportunity I
have had to become a member of the LDS faith. It has enlightened and enlivened
my life. I am saddened that it does not appeal to all. But having
just completed another in-depth personal reading and pondering of the Holy Bible
from page 1 through page 1448 of the Cambridge KJV edition, the 1075 pages of
the Anglican KJV, and the nearly 1600 pages of the LDS KJV Bible, (not their
Book of Mormon - but the 400 year old KJV Bible) each Bible being identical
except for glosses and footnotes, I am persuaded more and more toward the LDS
belief system. Few others get it. Doesn't anyone other that Mormons believe in
the whole Bible anymore? A Mormon President would be a great blessing to
America. They understand things that others just see as mysteries, like the
purpose of life. Why not a President who knows he is accountable to God for
every idle word, for every act. It would be refreshing.
I once met a wise Catholic priest who said, "Do you want to know about the
Catholic religion? Ask a Catholic. Do you want to know about Judaism? Ask a Jew.
Do you want to know about the Mormons? Ask a Mormon."How
profound and simple can you get?
You think it is hard for a Mormon to be president, imagine being Muslim. I have so many neighbors who hate Muslims and think Islam is all about
terrorism. This is due to a lack of knowledge on my neighbors part. People trust
the news and friends to get their information on events and religions- too many
of them don't research beyond that. This has led to gross misunderstandings
about the LDS faith nationally. It has also led to gross misunderstandings about
Islam. Since Mormons don't like being misrepresented why would they participate
in doing it to others?
To: sharrona | 10:33 a.m. Feb. 15, 2011 Layton, Ut You have clearly
presented the difference in doctrine between the LDS Church and
Judeo/Christianity. To which, I am in total agreement. My original comment had
to do with those individuals who said they can't vote for a Mormon because they
are not Chirstian. By the simplest of definitions, a belief in the teachings of
Jesus Christ qualifies one as a Christian. As you have pointed out very well,
the difference is in the doctrinal concepts. So my original question is, if the
LDS Faith is Christian-based by definition, why would one have a problem with a
Mormon candidate based only on this fact alone? We as a country have had many
presidents with different beliefs of Christianity.
I have been a member all my life and didn't really start to understand the
church until I was in my 40's. It seems we can be surrounded by some things from
our earliest childhood and still be oblivious to them. My wife's cousins served
their missions in the south in the 1960's and they say people actually thought
Mormons had horns. We can't laugh AT people for their misunderstanding but we
can laugh at their goofy notions.
The LDS Church does reflect a spectrum of beliefs and personalities. Here in
Utah, we are dominated by consevative politics. But beyond the "Center of
Zion", there is much more diversity.Harry Reid is an
outstanding example of a faithful member, as are many others who do not share
the Utah conservatism.As the LDS church has grown, it has broadened
its acceptance of those out in the world. We now proselite in Africa. We now
welcome small families, single adults, even those that struggle with
homosexuality. Our divorce rate is similar to other churches. That isn't a
source of pride, but rather acknowledgement that we are similar to others. Our doctrine still remains somewhat mysterious to those that have not
studied it. Yes, we are polytheistic (according to the accepted definition).
But we are also Christian, believing that we are members of Christ's church and
To me the basic summation of being a Christian is someone who belives in Christ
as the Savior and redeemer of the world. This is something that as LDS people of
faith we believe in. How and who Christ is what he looks like,etc.. is not so
much a composit of the word Christian as it is a basis for a religious belief. I
am LDS and I AM A CHRISTIAN! I may not belief the same as you but I believe in
Christ.. Sence it is HIS name I think that believe in Him is what is important.
Personally, I don't care what you think, it is between me and HIM and He knows,
I love Him.
To "sharrona | 10:33 a.m. " the problem is that you define what a
Christian is differently than how "The Deuce" does.To
clarify things, please tell us how you define what a Christian is.My
favorite definition of what a Christian is came from a catholic nun who said
that "Christians are people that believe in all the Saints and
Virgins."The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines a Christian as
"one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ".You seem to have a different idea. Please share with us what you believe a
The Deuce, "You have yet to prove the point that the LDS Faith is not
Christian. I can find no issue with your statements, based upon my limited study
of the LDS Church.Joseph Fielding Smith:and these three constitute three
distinct personages and three Gods. This is a form of polytheism or social
trinitarism. Judeo/Christianity is monotheism. For there are three that
bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these
three are One(*eis, 1520) (1 John 5:7 KJV and the JST). Eis is the cardinal
number one in Greek.I have a clue,I left the Mormon church when I
became a Christian and Layton is LDS and some of my family are very active in
To: sharrona | 12:13 a.m. Feb. 15, 2011 Layton, UtYou have yet to
prove the point that the LDS Faith is not Christian. I can find no issue with
your statements, based upon my limited study of the LDS Church. However, you
have only defined differences in concepts of belief and have not proved whether
or not they are Christians. My original statement had to do with why or why not
would someone vote for a Mormon for President. If the basis for your vote is
whether or not th LDS Faith is Christian, then that is an easy answer. If you
are basing your vote on the differences in religious doctrine, then that is
another issue. Voters need to focus on what the individual will bring to the
office rather than what color of tie he/she is wearing.
The Deuce,"they believe in Jesus Christ. I have yet to find anyone who can
prove me wrong in this case. If you have not taken time to study their beliefs
then you have no basis for an opinion. Comments?,a couple.Christians
believe ,In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God. (John 1:1)or Jesus is God.Mormon Doctrine, The devil is a spirit
son of God who was born in the morning of pre-existence or Jesus is the
spirit-brother of Lucifer. Christians believe God is the uncreated creator of
all else,(aseity).Mormons believe, As man is God once was as God is man
can be. Lorenzo SnowThe Word became flesh...(John 1:14)or God becomes man
not man becomes God.Mormons want to be God(exaltation), Christians
want to be with God.
While not of the LDS faith, I fail to understand the uninformed opinions of the
LDS faith by those who appear to lack a brain. I for one would vote for a Mormon
candidate if I felt they represented my needs and feelings as a voter. I fail to
understand what difference this makes. For the uninformed, the LDS faith is a
Christian-based faith. Their difference is in their concept of the trinity.
However you cut it, they believe in Jesus Christ. I have yet to find anyone who
can prove me wrong in this case. If you have not taken time to study their
beliefs then you have no basis for an opinion. Comments?
The mention of Proposition 8 in the article was sure to bring on the haters.
The wording used to speak of Proposition 8 shows the clear bias of the
"Washington Post" in favor of a replacement of man/woman marriage with
genderless marriage.I would also criticize them for their
un-critical quoting of David Kirkham. There are many Mormon historians and
political scientists who would give a more nuanced set of statements, saying
that while on the whole the constitution was part of God's plan, and its net
result was positive, calling it an inspired document is going to far and that we
clearly recognize that as it was first written it was flawed.
Hirschfield is the first person I have seen give an answer to why people will
vote for a Mormon governor or a Mormon senator long before they will for a
Mormon president. I do not agree with all his assesments. I think
there is also a perception, right or wrong, that the preisdent has far more
power or influence than a governor or a senator and thus we care much more about
what he thinks and who will influence him, but the recognition that how people
decide the prisident is not based just on policy is important.
A sadness overwhelms, as I read the many passionate, ill-informed, angry
comments, in the original Post article. Unfortunately, "angry"
appears to work the best, so nothing gets accomplished.I have never
met an angry Mormon. Mormons, et al., & Media; something about
the message and the messenger comes to my mind.
Well, we have Beck on one side of the political spectrum... And then on the
other complete opposite side of the spectrum we have Reid.We just
about got somebody for everybody.If you believe that the US
Constitution was inspired by God, you got Beck.If you believe that
the US Constitution isn't worth the paper it was written on, then you got
Reid.Somebody for everybody, I guess... Hey, what can I say, we are
a missionary church...