Hmmmm, a Broadway satire on the Book of Mormon...maybe not such a wise idea guys
(thoughts on Agency, Freedom, and Liberty, from the Book of Mormon):
"Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given
them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and
eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and
death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that
all men might be miserable like unto himself (2 Nephi 2:27)"
UtahBlueDevil,Yes, you could be wrong.If you are
correct, then we ought to conclude two things:1. That Mark Twain
lacked understanding of literature, and lacked understanding of how to evaluate
the literary merit of a work. Is that reasonable? Shall we trust a confused
Utah/Duke fan or Mark Twain's opinion?and2. Perhaps you
lack understanding - especially of logic, as you appear to fail to realize how
your argument condemns yourself.But I am open to any value that
might exist in the BOM. What does it add to mankind?- That Jesus
paid the price for our sins? We already have that from the Bible.-
That we should love one another, not kill, not lie, not adulterate, etc? We
already have that from the Bible, and common sense, too.- That God
might command a person to kill other, defenseless people (like Laban)? We
already have that in the Qu'ran and Old Testament. Not really a valuable
doctrine, if you ask me.- That God is "no respecter of
persons", yet he has "chosen" a small group of people that he
plays favorites with? We already have that from all religions.What
are we missing?
Actually, ones opinion of a given work as being "boring" is really
just a subjective representation of ones ability to understand the subject
matter. Many find reading math books - boring. To others, they find great
delight in reading about the math. So ones opinion that something
is boring adds little, and detracts even less. It just shows either a lack of
understanding, or a lock of desire to understand.In fact, believing
in something has nothing to do with whether it is boring or not. I am not a
muslim, but that does not mean I find the "Koran" boring. Even the deepest skeptic can find material they don't believe in to be
informative at some level, and perhaps even entertaining. But to say something
is Boring.... hardly the sign of inquisitiveness. And mockery, really not a
sign of advanced thinking. Anyone can mock another. Fifth graders excel at it.
A probing mind seeks to understand and doesn't need to diminish others to
justify itself.That just my opinion, I could be wrong.
Vince here,Sorry to disappoint you with such a "boring"
evaluation of the BOM.I know Mark Twain's books are probably
"boring" to you, but my opinion of the BOM exactly coincides with
his.Can I assume that you would consider it more
"substantial" if I said the Book of Mormon is "chlorophorm in
print"?Does that satisfy your literary demands?As
for "most influential books", no "literary criticism"
classifies the Book of Mormon as such. Perhaps popular press does. And what does
"most influential" actually mean? Isn't that another way of saying
popular?Do you think popularity = truth?Besides, I can
find nobody of any credibility who lists the Book of Mormon among "the most
influential books" nor among "the best books of all time".But Mark Twain's "Adventures of Huckleberry Finn" makes it
into at least one of those categories.(Incidently, Marx and Engels'
"Communist Manifesto" as well as Charles Darwin's "The Origin of
Species" make it into those categories.)So I think my opinion
of the BOM as "boring" is pretty substantial after all.
Vanka,Your comparisons are misplaced relatively speaking to history
considering how long The Book of Mormon has been in print.You will
find that much of literary criticism will place the Book of Mormon as one of the
most influential books written out of America. For its influence
and number of copies which have been printed, the comments "boring"
are altogether cheap.Further, you will find, that based on other
influential books in America - or in world literature, in general, you will find
readers who do deem them boring.It is all relative. To some,
Shakespeare is relative. To others, Faulkner, to others, modern philosophy.
In the future, try to find something more substantial than
Utes Fan brings up an excellent point. As soon as a scholar believes that the
Book of Mormon could be authentic, they are automatically discredited on this
sole basis, and the myth that no serious scholar accepts the Book of Mormon to
be authentic is perpetuated. Fact is, there are plenty of very serious and
intelligent scholars, scientists, etc. who believe the Book of Mormon to be
authentic. Trouble is, if they dare live what they believe to be truth, they are
no longer taken seriously. I wonder what would happen if this same standard was
applied to scientists who "believe" in global warming? Do we get to
automatically discredit them because they drive a hybrid and recycle
@Fairenough4U "You would think at least one anthropologist or
historian who is not LDS would accept the Book of Mormon as historical, given
how eager they are for documents and records, and yet not one does. Not a single
one."Of course you should realize that any scholar who does
believe would become LDS, thus making it impossible to counter your criticism.
If you are interested, there are LDS scholars who believe. For
example, take Kim Goldsmith, Director - Research and Study Center, New World
Archaeological Foundation, San Cristóbal de las Casas, México. She
believes the BOM is historical. Previously an archaeologist at Teotihuacan for
numerous years BEFORE being converted to the LDS Church.
Amazing. God translates a record that is an actual historical record. In its
translated form it has over 500 pages. It deals with dozens of aspects of
several cultures in several areas of MesoAmerica and the Middle East. You would
think at least one anthropologist or historian who is not LDS would accept the
Book of Mormon as historical, given how eager they are for documents and
records, and yet not one does. Not a single one. In fact, those who actually
have had the patience to read the Book of Mormon adamantly agree that it is
absolutely ridiculous to claim it is historical. Now that is a "Book of
Mormon challenge" that would be impossible to match. I guess God's hand is
staying all the evidence to make investigators and members live by faith when it
comes to the Book of Mormon. It is nonsensical to claim the Book of Mormon is
historical, and getting a feeling is not a means of proving its historicity.
Interesting, but I am wondering when will be there the next satire: "How
you too can get your 72 virgins". Or rather, how about an expose on the
Muslim Brotherhood. That should be interesting if the South Park groupies would
do this, but make sure your wills are up-to-date.
The likely colapse of the Anglican Communion during this decade is being driven
by white liberal Episcopalians who regularly express views against leaders of
the Anglican Church of Nigeria and to a lesser extent Uganda that are 100%
I have to disagree with Sutton. For one thing his claim is not true. If I made
a similar presentation that tried to insinuate similar things about Jews it
would be denounced as anti-semitism and not allowed (well, unless I couched it
in the terms of criticism of Orthodox Jews, and got a Reform Jew as my
co-writer, and then it would probably fly).This is plain offensive
and meant to be so. I participated belatedly in everybody draw Muhammad day and
drew a cartoon of Muhammad just standing there, to be a force against death
threats against artists. I also drew a cartoon of Gabriel about to take
Muhammad to Jerusalem on the night journey and Muhammad asking "why
Jerusalem". I would have to say that many of the participants in this
event had unwisely interalized the most negative and Amero-centric stereotypes
of Islam. I also would agree that this production mocks the people
of Uganda, but it is a current article of faith among the liberal left at
current that Ugandans especially and Africans in general are simplistic, stupid
people who can be easily manipulated. I reject this idea.
I like this new setup of looked identities. Now I have a citable quote of Vanka
being deliberately insulting. It actually shows how well crafted this statement
was that no one managed to get through a fully insulting and inflamatory post
until the 25th statement.I have to second those who point out there
are some things it is not worth debating. This is one of the harder things
about the internet. It is difficult to determine the sincerity of inquiries.
At the same time often what you say can be viewed by many people and so even if
the first inquirer is not sincere, responding without the proper patience might
turn-off a later sincere inquirer.
I have read Joggle's comments and, frankly, I am honored to be categorized in
the same company. But it is a long way from Provo to Clearfield.
@ Vanka 2:39 p.m.How kind of you to consider the Book of Mormon
along with the other sacred texts you mention. This is certainly a step-up from
the typical approach of the Book of Mormon naysayers. And, yes, I have read
parts of many of the books you list and own a copy of one or two. I don't know
just what you mean by asserting that Joseph Smith called each of these books
frauds. I doubt it. But, back to my question. Let's try it a
different way. Where is a book such such as the Book of Mormon written by an
American? A fair question, I think, since most Book of Mormon critics are
Americans. And, why can't they duplicate the book today?
@Stay the courseYes, I agree that my comments reflect myself, but
whether you have interpreted them correctly is another story! Whether I have
interpreted you correctly may also be incorrect, but if you are unwilling to
debate the subject with more support for your argument I have no other choice
than to assume things from what you present. You might be a good
person to debate here, but the restrictions prevent that from happening. I can
not really present all my thoughts here, so I'm not surprised that you
misinterpret me. That is possibly a problem for me as well. Oh well....it is
what it is!
Joggle and VankaGreat minds think alike?
JiggleYour lightning fast response to any comment directed your way shows
your the extra sensitive one!!!!!!How do you know I am even Mormon? your
assumption onlyYes I will continue to maintain your comments of othersreflect the person you really are
Dear Jan SanDo you not realize that their is contention from the
LDS? Look at the rather objectionable (to be kind) remarks or assumptions put
forth simply for disagreeing. There is no innocence here by some of your
brethren....not all! Contention goes both ways perhaps, but many times that is
what happens with debate. It's too bad some don't realize that and refraain from
accusations and untrue character assumptions!
I do not live in the state of Utah.. though I have off and on in the past,and we
have new members here. I also went on a mission outside of Utah and had the
blessing of seeing people I taught get baptised. I have had my own
"MIRACLE" in my life.. some big ones.. but most small ones that still
affect my life.Joseph Smith knew way back in his lifetime that his name
would be made fun of so why should we be surprised by this? He also knew and
told the saints in his day that the church would not be a "BIG" church
as far as the world population but that it would be a worldwide church as
meaning that it would be all over the world.. which is something we are still
working on. The first I heard about this play was during the time of the hoopla
with the gay marriage in Calif. so I think it is a back lash of that. Most of
the contention on this board is not from the LDS but from those who seem drawn
to be here to put the church down in some way. SAD
Joggle,Thank you for the reference. I had not heard of the Urantia
Book before. I will be sure not to make fun of it ;)On a similar
note, have you heard of the book "Oahspe: A New Bible" (1882)?The Title Page reads:"A New Bible in the Words of
Jehovih and His Angel Ambassadors. A Sacred History of the Dominions of the
Higher and Lower Heavens on the Earth for the Past Twenty-Four Thousand Years
together with a Synopsis of the Cosmogony of the Universe; the Creation of
Planets; the Creation of Man; the Unseen Worlds; the Labor and Glory of Gods and
Goddesses in the Etherean Heavens; with the New Commandments of Jehovih to Man
of the Present Day."Angelic beings used the hands of John
Ballou Newbrough (18281891) to write the book.The manuscript
contained hieroglyphs, whose resemblance to real Egyptian hieroglyphs was
attested to by Prof. Thomas A.M. Ward, who claimed to have deciphered the
hieroglyphics on the Cleopatra's Needle obelisk in Central Park. Ward was
present at Oahspe's first presentation, as was Dr. Cetliniski, an Oriental
scholar, who attested to its authenticity.
Listen up folks! I think this kind of stuff is just terrific for the Church long
term, although it surely is uncomfortable for us members intially. We believe
what we believe and understand not everyone else does. In fact some think it is
downright foolish. Truth be told I think they are the ones that are foolish and
one day we will all know who was right and who was wrong. Until then, let's
just be kind to each other and not make light of other's deeply held beliefs.
Fools mock, but they shall mourn. When the day comes that these South
Park guys are mourning their dumb choice to make this play I am sure a faithful
Mormon will come along with a plate of cookies and put their arm around them and
have a good laugh about the whole thing. Until then, we ought to thank them for
bringing attention to the Church we love and for the honest in heart that will
be spurred on to look into that book of Books. El Libro De Mormon! Seacrest....
Dear Vanka,Check out the "little known" Urantia Book for
your list! The Urantia Book, first published by Urantia Foundation in 1955,
claims to have been presented by celestial beings as a revelation to our planet,
Urantia. It does not consider itself to be a religion and has no churches. Its
main focus though is also correcting the Gospel of Jesus from the Bible.So many books claiming they are the truth!Do I believe the
Urantia Book? No!
@Jiggle It's true that retaining new members can be a problem for
lots of reasons. It's a lot to ask most people to give up their Sunday and
serve in callings, etc. The church believe it or not is still growing a lot
faster then people are falling away from it though. Even if the opposite was
true, I don't think it would matter much, because it's not about how many
members there are.
AllSeeingEye,You wrote:"If the Book of Mormon is
the outrageous fruad many purport it to be, shouldn't it be a simple task for
someone to write a book like it, put that book into circulation, and create a
result something like the result brought by the Book of Mormon? Where is such a
book?"Do you sincerely want answers? Others HAVE written books
comparable to the Book of Mormon and circulated them, with amazing results.Ever heard of the Qu'ran? Do you think it is "true" (the word
of God)? If so, you must convert to Islam. If not, it was created just as you
challenge, and has lasted longer and gathered more adherents than the BOM.
Around 1.65 Billion people today believe the Quran is the word of God.Heard of the Tripitaka or Dhammapada? As many as 1.5 Billion people today
believe it is true.How about the Bhagavad-gita? Upwards of 1 Billion
people today believe it is the word of God.Not to mention the Tao Te
Ching, Analects, Kojiki & Nihongi, Adi Granth, Kitab-i-Aqdas, and many
more.Have you read them?All frauds, according to Joseph
Just a couple of months ago, an LDS missionary returned from Europe in our Stake
and commented that one young man he taught and who converted in the Netherlands
was first exposed to the Church by watching a Mormon-themed episode of South
Park. Seemed odd to me, but I think someone who watches South Park recognizes
that it satitizes about everything and takes that into account. There is a
difference between mean spirited critism and just finding something funny, and I
think this will be the latter.
@boiseblue and others hereAttitudes like yours are just another
reason to dismiss the LDS Church as well as any church. Members of any church
who make accusations of being a LDS/Catholic/Baptist etc. hater, anti-Mormon,
being a puppet of Satan, and insinuations of lying when you simply have an
opposing opinion is not debate and certainly discredits the opinion. Ad hominem
arguments concerning a differing opinion are irrelevant to the argument here.
That being said...I would expect opposing opinions to mine, and along with that
I expect support of the opposing opinion with reasonable arguments and facts
when necessary. Sarcasm happens in debate however it is very apparent that
cultural perspectives on sarcasm vary widely with groups finding it offensive to
varying degrees. Perhaps we can all do better on that one....including myself!
boiseblue...Saying people are Satans's puppets requires evidence to
support that argument! Do you have any evidence that people commenting here are
Satan's puppets?LDS shouldn't take this play so seriously that they
become insulted by disagreement concerning the Churches concern about it.
Lighten up! I wouldn't go either since I don't even like South Park!
I wrote a long reply to Mayfair last night, but it didn't get posted. I ran into
the 200 word limit, so maybe it was deemed too long.In short, while
my knowledge of this show is based on a blog entry and attendant comments, I
would venture to say that yes, the show will probably be very offensive to
Ugandans, people of African descent, or anyone who finds crude stereotypes
offensive.To clarify for others who may have been thrown off by the
title, the show is not a satirical telling of the Book of Mormon itself. It does
not feature stories or characters from the Book of Mormon. It is about 2
American missionaries sent to Uganda. My understanding is that the show is
really about the "silliness and zeal" of the missionaries. They come
into contact with native Africans who sing the most offensively awful thing
about God you can imagine, and come to the conclusion that there is peace in
living in a lie as long as you believe it strongly enough.And after
Prop 8, I can assure you that many in the Broadway community are stoked to see
Why is it ok to say that the church is true, when in actuality you really don't
KNOW that it is?Why is it not ok to even think that the church is false if
you have an idea that it might be? Are members allowed to even question what
they believe? I question what I believe all the time. There is no sin in
questioning? Is there? Oh yeah, if you do ask yourself questions, that means
you lack faith right? Keep the faith strong dont ask questions!I
believe the church responded in a correct manner by the way.
@ Jiggle.When did wards and stakes get discontinued, where, by who?
Being an active member I guess I missed that Memorandum since I attended church
Sunday when Wards and Stakes were still part of the excellent organization of
the LDS church. I think some of the research you are reading came from an
incorrect source. Not Surprising.
If the Book of Mormon is the outrageous fruad many purport it to be, shouldn't
it be a simple task for someone to write a book like it, put that book into
circulation, and create a result something like the result brought by the Book
of Mormon? Where is such a book? After all the years of naysayers
proclaiming every vile, pernnicious, and derogatory thing about the Book of
Mormon, why haven't they undertaken the simple task of exposing the fraud by
replicating it, or something like it?Could it be because of the
futility sure to accompany such an effort? Remember, within a few years, the
newly-written book needs to convince hundreds of spiritually sensitive and
thoughtful men and women that it is indeed divine. It has to change the hearts
of many doubters touch the souls of, eventually, millions of people in dozens of
countries.Oh, and the author, a person with little formal education,
must dictate the book from scratch. And, many influenced by it must
make monumental changes in their lives--not just think the book is
interesting.I could go on, but you get the idea--where is such a
This was the best response possible. Any direct criticism of the work will just
give it more attraction and cause some people to go to it out of a solidarity
against what would be construed as "censorship".
South Park Episode 712 ("All About The Mormons") is hilarious satire.
A devout Mormon would have to lack a funny bone not to see the delicious humor
in it. But is there really that big of an audience (of disaffected
or thick-skinned Mormons) on Broadway to sustain this project? I'm surprised.
NO ONE...not even Parker and Stone will stop the Lords work. Try as they may for
what ever reasons it will go on. Just some MORE of Satan's puppets!
@Utes21 and coach BiffI don't come to my assertions and rebuttals
lightly. They include research from many sources including the LDS Church and
other sources such as the Cumorah project. You believe what's in front of you.
Your Church does not encourage you to read sources that don't support the
Church. I read all sources. Accusations of hating the Church does this debate no
good and are false. People just take challenging the status quo way too personal
and resort to saying a person hates the Church instead of supporting their
argument. I had an open mind concerning the LDS Church when I came here and I
learned about it. My conclusions are based on many facts that many LDS simply
ignore. Wards and stakes have also been discontinued, but that gets ignored. The
erection of buildings doesn't prove membership.From Cumorah: Because
official LDS membership statistics have no obligatory relationship to member
activity or participation, official membership data offer relatively little
insight into the growth and strength of the Church. Believe what you
want, but there is data that disputes what you believe to be true. I and many
others can't ignore it.
Arguing about religious beliefs is foolish. It's a waste of time and effort.
People will choose to believe or not to believe a particular religion,or parts
of it. It is never appropriate to "argue" about truth, as the truth
never needs a defense. Only the week and feeble seem to need to argue about
truth or what is, is.
LOL at some of these comments. The defensiveness that shows through is quite
astounding. The creators LIKE mormons you guys. If you've seen the south park
episode it paints mormons in a very good light! I imagine their broadway
production will as well. You don't have anything to fear or be defensive about.
If you want a quote from Parker and Stone about mormonism:Parker:
I've been fascinated with the Mormons for a long time. They are the nicest
people in the world. If a religion's going to take over the world, and the one
that really believes "just be super nice to everyone" takes over,
that's all right with me.
Odd....A group of people with their pants in a twist for having
their most sacred beliefs attacked in a play. Of course never mind
the majority of the group being attacked will continually attack our President,
Gay's, other Religions, Mormons who don't attend Church and the list goes on!
Oh the Irony!And the play? Even though I am a huge South Park fan I
wouldnt waist my time seeing it. It sounds stupid, looks stupid and will
probably be shut down in a week.For those of you highly offended by
this act of jocularity you should:A. Let it be a tool to reaffirm
your faithand you should:B. Be more like our Father In
Heaven and love your brother no matter what his beliefs are.Geesh..This is a non issue folks. Get over it!
Very classy and correct response from the LDS church. When you are led by a
true Prophet and Apostles you realize nothing else is possible.Incidentally this is not the first try for Stone and Parker. They also tried
a satirical movie about a Mormon Missionary which flopped horribly. Other than
South Park I think their success in other realms has been extremely limited.I have found some of their humor very funny on some instances but it
becomes difficult and tediously low-brow too often.I have had some
good "missionary" discussions based off of a few South Park episodes
and from "Big Love" followers. Just another way for me to be able to
talk and answer questions about the LDS Church (which I know to be true) and an
opportunity to highlight the good the LDS church does worldwide.
Stone and Parker remind me of clowns in class that comment on anything and
everything. Occasionally they are funny, even poignant. However, like
attention addicted children, they take it to far. Let them be. Most people
understand that their humor, for the most part, is very low brow and aims for
the lowest common denominator. And Jiggle, I'll believe you when I see the
church quit building churches and splitting wards and stakes on a daily basis.
Until then, I'll go by what I see. How's that for irony?
@ Jiggle You also keep records of church attendance on every member of
the LDS church throughout the world? How do you do that with your busy schedule
hating the Church everyday. I mean 14 million was reported as a fact but you
keep tabs on our converts so the Church will just come to you before stating
true facts. No actually more people were far more curious about Jesus
Christ, The Plan of Salvation, our Temple in Boston, Family History, Joseph
Smith, The Book of Mormon, Missionary Work, Mormon Neighbors, BYU, Brigham
Young, Mitt Romney, Danny Ainge, etc... Granted we were rejected at many doors
but most of those people would say how they respected our Church and our beliefs
but they werent interested or not religious. They didnt go off on a tangent of
Church membership and how insignificant the church was.
South Park has frequently made fun of other targets, including Muslims. They
made fun of Scientology only after Penn & Teller were told they could not on
their own Showtime television series. Telling these guys, "You can't."
is the quickest way to incite them. This is why the church has chosen to be
prudent in its response.In fact, the first South Park Episode that
featured Joseph Smith was titled "Super Best Friends". This same
episode also feature Lao Tze, Buddha, Krishna, Jesus, Moses, and Muhammad. As
the episode first aired in early 2001, before 9/11 and the Danish Cartoon
Controversy, the depiction of Muhammad was not censored.However,
when South Park decided in two later episodes, one was actually a two parter so
it was three altogether, to comment on the ludicrousness of the media's fear of
depicting Muhammad after the Danish incident, Comedy Central censored them in
both cases.While I can understand the reasons many of you do not
watch South Park, or other movies produced by the same creators, I would
encourage you to at least research the subject more thoroughly before you
comment.This post is purely informational. Please let it through.
@charlie91342 By the way, the lack of historical evidence for how
the BOM came to be isn't enough to convince anybody. That comes from a spiritual
experience only. I don't expect historical information alone to convince
anybody. Only God and His Holy Spirit can do that.I don't mind mild
satire against Mormon beliefs. Sometimes it is funny. However, maybe that satire
isn't as deserved as people think. There are compelling reasons why Mormons
And when they showed what was Mohammed in a bear costume, they were basically
threatened to end up like a dead Dutch director. Turns out it was only Santa
Claus.Great response from the Church. Very Classy. Sounds like
something Pres. Monson would have come up with himself!
@Utes21Wow....assumptions abound with the LDS! It amazes me every
time it happens. First of all...you are perpetuating the myth that the Church is
growing. The Church counts inactive people as well as many others who don't
practice or believe in the religion anymore. Most former members don't bother to
remove themselves from Church rolls. Reliable sources say that convert retention
is a problem. Based on actual activity rates....the count of 14 million is much
lower. Sure people are curious but not for the reasons you prefer or
think! Out of the billions of people on earth your religion is wholely
insignificant in the scheme of life to most people.Oh...and by the
way...I'm NOT a dude! As far as where I've lived....I came here from a different
state, lived in more than one, as well as Europe. Polygamy is the main thing of
curiosity! Of course, there are exceptions, but I bet there are more doors
closed on Mormonism than opened. Facts are facts! Now will DS News
post my rebuttal. They seems to dislike people disputing the membership numbers!
Thank you in advance!
To charlie91342First of all, I would find great offense if a satire were
made about the Catholic Priests, I have a great respect for the Catholic church
and do not base my opinion by a few men in that church. Second, you
seem to like to tear apart other peoples comments, the snarky side of me would
wonder if you are not capable of making your own comments, or afraid of having
someone else tear them apart. But I won't say that ;) You question someone
talking about miracles and how they use the word, I question that you assume
that a miracle didn't happen? You came to a conclusion without getting the
facts. I googled the word miracle, and bye some miracle, this was the very
first definition that was listed. "any amazing or wonderful
occurrence". Isn't that amazing, that the first thing I found, showed that
there are different layers of a miracle. As for my sense of humor, I had to
have a lot of that when I had a dying bed ridden husband at the age of 37, his
was the best. But we were laughing at ourselves not at others.
@ charlie I am glad you can tell me what miracles are and how they occur.
Are you the miracle man who gets to tell everyone what miracles are? Did Jesus
give you the power to tell others they cant perform miracles unless it means
healing crippled people or splitting the sea? I am pretty sure people back in
day saw many miracles performed by Christ or prophets, and just said after that
it wasnt a miracle. It was a trick or the devil gave him that power or a lucky
coincidence . How many miracles did Christ perform right in front of the
Pharisees and they still claimed him a fraud and ultimately crucified him? I saw things that may be normal to person like you but again being normal
seems to be how you look at life. My mission was a testament to me that miracles
are real and they do occur on a daily basis. I dont cast my pearls before swine.
Keep hating the Church buddy and see how your life turns out.
Interesting comments today. Class and dignity are hallmarks of a civilized
and progressing society. Defamation of others, vile sophistry and persecution of
what is of good report or praiseworthy - the harbinger of a society in decay.
Make your own observations, but mud thrown is still and always will be ground
@charlie91342 "some guys got together and wrote it. just like
the bible."What guys? Where did their information come from?
When? How? Why? And, where is the historical information that shows that
"some guys wrote it"?These questions may not be important
to you, but they are to me. @charlie91342 "not rocket
science..."Humans figured out and published rocket science
before they figured out where the BOM came from. Ironic isn't it?
Re: fairenough4UYour statement is internally inconsistent. You
first state that you know "hundreds of non-Mormons that have had the same
'testimony-confirming' experiences about there religions..." but then you
go on to ridicule and question the method. It appears then that those
"hundreds" of non-Mormons that you know have the same issue with you
as do believing LDS. Assuming you are Christian, what do you think James 1:5
means? Assuming you are not, how else can you possibly independantly verify the
truth of a religous belief? As far as I know, the LDS Church is the only
Christian religion that asks people to independantly verify the truth of what we
preach - I am unaware of any other Christian demomination that encouranges
independant verification from God.
For years I've wished that someone would create a musical for the broadway
and/or global stage based on Book of Mormon stories. Mormon's are such fans of
Les Miserables - because of the theme of forgiveness and starting a new - I
wished I had the talent or resource to launch a non satirical show on Nephi and
his family...So here is my call to those more talented than I - what are you
waiting for? Same goes for the Movies - the Church has produced great movies
recently - but Someone needs to tell the story of the Book of Mormon in
"Laurence of Arabia" style and distribution.
@ JiggleRight? Thats why hundreds of thousands people join the church
every year because they arent curious. Thats why hundreds of people back east,
invited me and my companions to teach them because they werent curious. Thats
why the Church has grown to 14 million members worldwide because people arent
curious. Thats why they made this stupid satire musical because people arent
curious. Dude I think you havent lived outside of your house let alone
re - Utes21 | 9:13 a.m"I served a mission back in Boston not to long
ago and saw many miracles start from the strangest things."see
- here's one problem with your religion. you use words incorrectly. tell us, Utes21 - what miracles did you witness? did a cripple get up and
walk? was water turned to wine? did the sea part?you didn't see
miracles. you saw regular things and decided they were "special
events" or something. and now you call them miracles.Jesus
would be greatly disturbed that you think a minor incident is the equivelant to
a miracle as written in the bible."miracles" isn't a word
you should just be throwing around. "People were curious about
poligamy and ended up letting us come back to teach them"I'm
guessing it was mostly middle-aged white men, and when you said you don't have
multiple wives anymore, they were no longer interested...re - U of U
Fan | 10:15 a.m"If the book is not historical, I, for one would like
to know where it came from."some guys got together and wrote
it. just like the bible. not rocket science...
re - Counter Intelligence | 5:59 a.m"Traditionally songs are
performed from Broadway musicals on the Today show, during the Macys parade and
on the Tony Awards. Reviews indicate there are no songs in this show that can be
performed on network television."like I said - it will show on
HBO after Big Love. here's a hint - just because something can't be shown on
network TV doesn't mean there is anything wrong with it. It's just means it's
not for kids. If everything shown on TV was suitable for kids, television would
be boring."Hope you can laugh at yourself too; or is it only
funny when you make fun of others?"I laugh at myself all the
time. but I'm probably not funny to anyone else - my undergarments are just
regular boxers, not special "protective" undergarments and I don't
think I will rule a planet next to God.listen, your religion begs
for satire. to be mormon, you must accept that. you can believe as you wish -
i believe in a free country and the 1st amendment. but that doesn't stop others
from satirically portraying your religion. lighten up, dude.
I really like it when the Church runs into these type of things. I find that
those who are really looking for truth start to ask questions and the Church
ends up growing and getting stronger. It happened on my mission and it happened
in every area that I have lived.Thanks South Park people for helping
us find those who are smart and thoughtful people who love truth!
"Recognize that there must needs be opposition, that you cannot be totally
faithful and popular with everybody. You can't be anything and be fully accepted
by everybody! If you seriously expect to be the only generation ever born upon
the earth in any dispensation to have the gospel without any challenge, without
any opposition or resistance, without persecution from the world, you expect
that which will never be."Do you expect to hold membership in
the Church and the blessings thereof without paying a price for it? I ask you,
is a scoffing, cynical remark, or a scornful glance, much of a price to pay for
the whole gospel plan?"Boyd K. Packer, to a BYU audience (in
@Fairenough4U "I cannot understand how any educated adult could
think the book is historical"If the book is not historical, I,
for one would like to know where it came from. Critics cannot seem to agree.
Some say Joseph wrote it. Some critics say he did not. Some say he copied other
sources. Some say he did not. The irony is, if the BOM is not what Mormons claim
it to be, the historical sources of where the book came from, are missing.
Critics claim the book is not historical. Alternative explanations for it are
not historical neither.
@Stay the CourseA fair amount of confusion has surrounded the issue
regarding the relationship between verbal irony and sarcasm. Sarcasm does not
necessarily involve irony and irony has often no touch of sarcasm. Sarcasm means
precisely what it says. However, your comment does point out how Mormons are so
easily offended!I would say you as well as others have never lived
anywhere else but Utah. The curiosity about the Church stops at the front door!
How silly that creators of a fad think their ugly and fleeting influence
compares at all to the good lasting influence of Jesus Christ and the Book of
Mormon. These guys actions are a satire on themselves. No one will
care to remember South Park (or characters associated with it) in 200 years, but
the LDS church and its witness of Jesus Christ has more than satisfied the 200
year test. Jesus isn't going away just because someone makes fun of Him or those
who believe in Him.
In an age of sacrilege, this is just another example of filth taking the form of
humor. Calling it a "satire" is really humorous!
People the world around will try to attack good things, yet they'll reap their
In most cases, the best response is no response.Let the "work" of the
creators of the show speak for itself. The truth,never needs a defense.
@rightascensionThe Book of Mormon is in the public domain. Besides,
satire nearly always falls under free use.These guys aren't afraid
of lawsuits, they know controversy breeds publicity. They've even challenged Tom
Cruise and Scientology, both of which are very litigious.The LDS
church, or at least its lawyers and PR, knows this, which is why they are being
very terse on the matter.
I remember there stupid movie they made about a LDS missionary. These same guys
made a movie called baseketball which was one of the stupidest movies ever made.
I honestly dont know how South Park is still on due its ratings? People like
them focus on the huge topic at the present time in the news and among people
and try to rip it apart. Thats why Big Love is so popular because of all the
news and publicity with the FLDS church. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter
Day Saints is big news worldwide. People want to know more about us we are
strange to them. This is a great thing because its our duty as members to inform
them what we beleive in.My mother told me any bad publicity the Church
gets is good news for our missionaries. She is a very smart woman. I served a
mission back in Boston not to long ago and saw many miracles start from the
strangest things. People were curious about poligamy and ended up letting us
come back to teach them. One of our missionaries joined the church because he
saw the south park episode.
It's interesting that The Church comments on a comedy satire of the Book of
Mormon, but so far as I can remember, it has never had anything to say
officially about the implications of the homosexual LDS characters in the drama
"Angels in America." Drama is one thing, I suppose; but funny is
intolerable.If it is a hit, and even if it is not, The Church really
should take action against the producers. The Intellectual Reserve has a clear
claim to the property. Are the producers paying the Church royalties?
Just relax, for every one person that watches the play, 100 people will hear
about "The Book of Mormon", and the church will gain just a little
more mainstream acceptance.
Just serves as a reminder that each of us may be the only Mormon anyone ever
meets and therefore we should always set the best example possibile. Someday -
in the future - an aspiring Broadway writer or producer, who has seen the
example that was set, may choose to write or produce a show that is based on the
positive example that hopefully, we set.
Dear Vanka, I find it one of the most interesting Books to read full of great
meaning. Read Moroni 10:3-5 and read it with that in mind. IF you
try to read it any other way you will find it meaningless. That is the way it is
with the Book of Mormon. IT is intended for the spiritualy seeking. Anyone
else not seeking that deep spiritual value will find it rather mundane. I find the Bible can also be boring if I do not read it with spiritual
Thanks again Counter Intelligence for a respectful observation showing simple
respect and good taste.Once again, I find your comments on target and
wellexpressed.You are a classy person.Sadly, Vanka finds
everything LDS boring, yet she took the time to delineate everything in such
detail.I'm sure she'll find the afore mentioned production of the Book of
Mormon quite invigorating no doubt.
Jiggle do you see the irony in your post? You are actually describing yourself
Ever notice how when you buy a new car everyone seems to ALSO have that car? It
is natural to begin to notice things you become aware of. The Lord
works in mysterious ways and can turn even being spit on and hanged on a tree a
religious experience for billions of people.Don't fret over people
who make fun of Mormons. For every person laughing in derision, there is also
someone who has their heart softened by the ignorance of the statement.
I'm not Mormon, but I have read the Book of Mormon several times. I cannot
understand how any educated adult could think the book is historical. As for
using subjective Moroni 7 promise to determine the historical or objective truth
of the Book of Mormon, how can you all not see what a nonsensical proposition it
is to even suggest that process is reliable or valid? I know
hundreds of non-Mormons who have had the same "testimony-confirming"
experiences about their religions and scriptures, and yet their religious
doctrines conflict with those of the Mormons. Would any adult be so irrational
or gullible as to use such a silly method as that recommended by Mormon
missionaries in any other important area of their lives in which they needed to
know the objective truth of something? Of course not. What if a judge freed
defendants based on a burning in her bosom? Or worse, found a defendant guilty
based of a stupor of thought. If you were raised Mormon, I get why you would be
confused, but for the rest of us, all this is all worthy of sacred satire.
Vanka,There is a Book of Mormon reader that has pictures in it and
is broken into 'bite-sized' chunks. Maybe start there.
Vanka, I have no idea what brought you to Provo, but you certainly would not be
living here without the Book of Mormon. Religious issues aside, I dare say much
of western US history would be different if it were not for the Book of Mormon-
think about it before snarking back people
Nothing new here, we have thick skin's and have been down this road many times
and will continue to take all the cheap shots and back handed humor in
stride.Vanka your blog is boring.
Well Vanka: I guess the millions of people who read the Book of
Mormon don't find it boring in any sense of the word.
If Mormons want to be brought in the public square to discuss their ideas and
beliefs, they are going to have to deal with stuff like this... just like
everybody else who brings their own ideas and beliefs, it comes with the
territory. Just because it is a religion doesnt give it,
To VankaI couldn't disagree with you more, Vanka.On all
counts ---On other issues, attacking other people's beliefs using
The Book of Mormon is uncouth and it is unthoughtful.
My guess is that this will be largely forgotten in a few weeks. Remember
President Hicnkley's story about the man who was furious about some falsehood
written about him in the newspaper? The man's friend told him: "Half the
people don't get the newspaper anyway. Of the half that do, only half even
noticed the article. Of those people only half read it. Of those that read it,
only half believed it and they are of no account anyway!" The
creators of South Park are fairly insignificant in the big picture. I don't
know too many people who even watch the show and of those that do, I haven't
been terribly impressed.
As a BYU student and a Mormon, I couldn't care less about this. I know what I
know. As the saying goes "Haters gonna hate."
The Church should not even bother to comment because most people outside Utah
(except members) don't really care about what LDS Church has to say
because....they never hear or read it. The only thing the Church has done is
warn its own members mostly (and perhaps a few others) plus given the
entertainment industry some free advertising. Most other people will decide for
themselves. Go ahead and be offended if you want...we all can be offended...but
remember perhaps others are offended by you as well. Some get offended because
they see life as having a certain set of rules. They have a hard time tolerating
that other people do not agree with them because they feel their "way"
is being devalued if it isn't whole-heartedly embraced and become
over-sensitive. Don't take yourselves so seriously...afterall you don't have to
go to the show! You've been warned afterall!
Clearly the creators of South Park have some exposure to LDS doctorine and
culture. How Funny !When you go out and tell the world that you are the
TRUE Church, be prepared for disagreement. I personally will fly from Florida to
NYC to Laugh by you know what off !. Get Over it Folks ! BTW, Brother Hinds, I
Vanka do you have strong opinions? It seems so
I'd like to ask ourtime99 who knows something about this production if it is
also critical of/and potentially offensive to the Ugandan people.
I think the gospel needs to be brought forth to all the world, and there are
some groups of the population that can only be taught by guys like these. The
South Park "mormon" episode helped make my friend curious about the
church, and he joined, then brought in his family.I think the oft quoted
"I don't care what the newspapers say about me as long as they spell my
name right." applies to the promotion of religion as much as it does the
promotion of individuals.
When Lawrence O'Donnell went on an emotional tirade against the Mormons, Joseph
Smith et al....He was interviewed later by Hugh Hewitt...Hewitt asked:"Why don't you go after Muslims the same
way?"O'Donnell answered:"Because they will
kill me..."Hewitt responded:"Yea the Mormons?
They'll just bake you a Strudel"
Vanka = Boring"Brevity is the soul of Wit"
vanka,and you are extremely boring
@fairenough4uum i think all of us members are relaxed. im laughing at why
the south park creators even created the show-shows how insenstive and low they
have to be to try and get "laughs". How is it not historically
accurate? Based on several searches in south america, they have found many
similar landmarks as described in the book of mormon. i dont like preaching my
religion over the internet for various reasons but obviously youre not lds,
that's cool we don't force our religion down anyone's throat as people think we
do, but do realize google is not the answer to everything....and that im going
off on blindfaith becuase i have read the book and i believe it to be
re - MoJules | 4:52 p.m"I believe that satire against any
person or belief is out of line."so do muslims. they kill
cartoonists...and most jokes make fun of someone. where's your
sense of humor, MoJules?"I do not agree with gay marriage, but
single people are permitted to adopt. So how would we feel if a very rude play
were to be about this kind of situation?"well, the problem is
the play would make fun of those against gay marriage. you know why? because
gay people are the ones that write the plays and perform in the plays.by the way - you haven't seen the play so you don't even know if it is
"rude". for all you know, it makes fun of the mormon religion in a
manner that you all probably do too. It's like with the catholics - any joke
about priests and babysitting young boys is always good for a laugh. Jokes can
be both funny and true, you know.
I don't care much for South Park, but maybe this will be a way to get some
people to read the Book of Mormon.
The BOM deserves to be made fun of. It is really a joke.As
storytelling, it is extremely boring.As literature, it is extremely
boring.As religious doctrine, it is extremely boring.As
history, it is extremely boring.As inspirational writing, it is
extremely boring.And did I mention that it is boring?
Neither of the creators were ever Mormons. They grew up with a few Mormon
friends in Colorado. Most of their satires have been based in accurate
facts from LDS history.The same is true for their satires of similar
organizations such as Scientology.I would guess the production will have
some crude humor, but I doubt it will be based in lies. That the Book of
Mormon is not historical is quickly and clearly established by anyone with
access to a computer and Google, but most who join the LDS Church don't
seriously look into the book's historicity, so you members can relax.
Your religion is strange to people outside of it. It begs caricature. That's
just the way it is.
It is interesting that the Church has made a statement about the comedy satire
"The Book of Mormon." I am hard pressed to remember any official
statements the Church ever made over the years about the dramatic implications
of the Mormon characters -- homosexual Mormon characters yet -- in "Angels
in America." The first casualty of orthodoxy always seems to
be humor. Or a sense of it.If "The Book of Mormon"
becomes a big hit, the Church will probably have to deal with it more directly.
Funny is always more intolerable than drama.
re - Counter Intelligence | 4:33 p.m"I would hope that other
religious groups would be concerned by the fact that not one single song in the
production can be broadcast on network television because of the
profanity"it's not going on TV. maybe it will follow Big Love
on HBO...re - katamb-midvale | 4:45 p.m"Before I
investigated the LDS Church at age 16, I went to Broadway and saw "Jesus
Christ Superstar." Now, I wouldn't go see it today with all I've learned
because I would find it offensive,what did you find offensive about
it? it's just Jesus singing and dancing. (you know he sang and danced in real
life, right?)come on, folks. you have to admit that mormonism is
ripe for the picking on the comedy circuit. I mean between the special
undergarments and the multiple planet scenario, you all must keep a sense of
humor.by the way, DRay | 3:41 p.m - I would love to have been there
when the mailman sprayed mace on dogs that were simply barking. My dogs have a
can of mace for unruly mailmen...
I hope all members of the LDS church can stay classy and provide positive
examples to counter any negativity to come from this show. Truth is the most
important thing.I found the Broadway show "Nunsense" to be
incredibly funny but worried that it may offend my Catholic friend. She said it
was insanely funny to her, too, and reminded her of all the nutty things the
nuns did at her parochial school.There is certainly a difference
between "funny" and "demeaning."
Do the writers of that tasteless satire realize they were put down or what? The LDS statement shows so much dignity and class, that the satirist's
probably think it was a compliment!!It is a testament that we have
inspired leaders who speak truth, with dignity even if (others') such attempts
are to US drag us down. Never--Carry on!! Carry on!! "Firm as
the mountains around us, Stalwart and brave we stand, On the rock our Father's
planted For us in this goodly land."The rock of honor and
virtue, Of faith in the living God. They raised his banner triumphant Over the
desert sod. "O youth of a noble birthright, Carry on, Carry
on!!"And so it IS!!!
In the New Testament the Lord taught "don't cast your perls before swine
lest they trample them under their feet and rend you again". The point is,
there is no point in having a conversation about sacred things with un-holy,
ignorant people because they value nothing. A more modern take on this is
"never wrestle with a pig in the mud ... you only get dirty and the pig
loves it anyway"..The LDS church is good to just let this go. Trying to
reason with pigs is pretty useless.
"On one occasion, a substitue on my mail route decided to stop and spray
the barking dogs with mace, but found he only got some on himself, and the dogs
all barked even louder the next day."As opposed to what UPS and
Fedex do which is leave treats for the dogs. All the dogs start panting and
wagging for the UPS and Fedex trucks, but know to bark at the USPS. :-)
The statement by the church was well said. I believe that satire against any
person or belief is out of line. I do not agree with certain lifestyles, but I
would cringe if someone came out and did an insulting satirical play about it.
For example, an article about gay couples adopting, not sure how I feel about
that, I do not agree with gay marriage, but single people are permitted to
adopt. So how would we feel if a very rude play were to be about this kind of
situation? If a fellow LDS member did that, I would be ashamed of them and
would find more fault in their cruel attacks, then in something I don't agree
Before I investigated the LDS Church at age 16, I went to Broadway and saw
"Jesus Christ Superstar." Now, I wouldn't go see it today with all
I've learned because I would find it offensive, but at that time it piqued my
interest to find out who He really is. Hopefully this will have the same effect.
If lies are told. Counter them with truth. If logical challenes are presented,
think through the dilema, if a good counter is found share it.It is
possible to unfairly injure a persons character using gossip using slander,
likewise a religion. It is also possible to spread light and truth where
religions wontMay that which is right and true and merciful prevail.
If this was about the Koran, Muslim's would have bombed the theater and killed
the writers by now...
Shakespeare said all truth is spoken in jest. ft
As a frequent reader of websites and blogs about Broadway shows, I have read an
account of the first 25 minutes of this show. I hoped when I first heard about
the creation of this show that it would be a chance to laugh at myself and the
quirks of my culture, but this is not simply a satire about Mormons. It is an
attempt to infuriate anyone who believes in any type of religion which seems
silly to the show's creators. It is clear that Parker and Stone wanted to make
the most patently offensive piece of material they could. There are sentiments
in the lyrics that are not just offensive to members of the LDS church, but to
anyone with a belief in God at all. Seriously, I can't even mentally repeat
them.For what it's worth, I applaud the LDS church for issuing such
a simple, little statement that barely even acknowledges the show's existence.
My church may be silly to Parker and Stone, but it's classy.
I think the LDS Church is a model on how to deal effectively with others trying
to portray the organization negatively...The statement was short, to
the point, and effective.No need to drag these arguments out. Make
your point, and move on.Does it *really* "challenge" the
message of the LDS Church ? Nope. If someone is swayed in their opinion of a
powerful global organization by an idiot comedian's opinion, then they need to
re-evaluate their values in life...Sure, the comedy might be funny.
I think the LDS Church has its quirks that are easy to make fun of... But
sometimes the *easy* comedy is classless. It is easy for idiots who don't
understand something to make fun of it...Then, on the other hand, I
think having a sense of humor about *yourself* and your own church is
healthy.It is healthy to laugh at yourself...That is not
to take away the seriousness of potentially sacred things, though. Serious
things should be respected. And it shows a lack of class to poke fun at
something considered to be sacred. That is something our society is
in need of: people with class.
It's a shame that anyone would try to tear down and denigrate the beliefs of
anyone else.It just goes to prove what I always say, "The world
would be a much better place without PEOPLE in it."
Come on folks, I know LOTS of LDS who think Monty Python's "Life of
Brian" is great stuff.
The Chruch is right - don't make a big deal about it.We think we
[LDS] are exempt??Tell me,NOBODY ever pokes fun of: Catholic Nuns, Jews, TV Evangelists, Baptists, etc.You get freaky insulted by this, you are silly and no different than
radical Islamic groups calling a fwatwah over cartoons.
Shaden, agree with you 100%. I guess imitation is the greatest form of flattery?
Who knows? I love the response of the Church to just conduct ourselves with
dignity and thoughtfulness. Great response.
The dogs will bark, I found, as a mailman. One must be aware of them, be wary
of them, yet find a way to block out the incessant barking, day after day, to
focus on the task at hand. On one occasion, a substitue on my mail route
decided to stop and spray the barking dogs with mace, but found he only got some
on himself, and the dogs all barked even louder the next day. It is good in that
the barking lets you know where they are, helps one account for and avoid their
sharp teeth. This new "Satire" only reminds that "their must
needs be an opposition in all things."
Why are Parker and Stone so obsessed with the LDS Church/beliefs/Mormon culture?
It seems like for at least a decade now they have been using it as fodder, ie,
see their countless references to it in South Park episodes and
critically-panned movies. What are they really trying to do? I've never quite
understood their obsession.