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Comments about ‘N.Y. Times praise unlikely to change Utah immigration debate’

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Published: Monday, Dec. 6 2010 11:16 p.m. MST

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joe5
South Jordan, UT

Gormax:

To your point #1: Yes, civil rights laws (and others) have been changed as a result of civil disobedience. But there is one aspect of those actions that you neglect either willfully or through ignorance.

Those who were disobedient did not expect to escape punishment. They expected to pay the price for their law-breaking and were willing to do so regardless the sacrifice.

In fact, punishment was essential to their purpose. They wanted to be seen as "social martyrs." They wanted to be made an example or their commitment to their cause. They wanted their punishment to sway public opinion in their favor through publicity.

This was the inspiration of Ghandi. His adherents, including Martin Luther King, adopted those concepts and lived them.

Where are the illegals willing to risk all to change what they perceive to be unfair legislation? They don't exist. They want to violate without consequence. That is not admirable; it's simply criminal.

cynic
Appleton, WI

It's pretty clear Sandstrom and his followers still don't get it. They probably never will. It's sad, really.

BobP
Port Alice, B.C.

I sometimes wonder if the LDS who post here in immigration belong to the same church as I have spent me life in.

KVC
Sahuarita, az

CWEB: Are you willing to open America's doors to all the poor and destitute of the World? What about all of the billions being oppressed? Should we let them all in? If not, why do we give preference to those from Latin America? It seems racist to say we only want hispanic illegals and not those from Africa or Asia. The fact is that life is a lot more difficult in Africa and Southeast Asia than it is in Mexico, so shouldn't they by your standards have preference instead?

Why is no other nation taking these illegals out of compassion? Canada is just North of us and we could facilitate the transport to the border. Come to think of it, why doesn't Canada let Americans without health insurance come there for free care? We do it for Mexico.

"We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law." That is what is in my scriptures. Has this been changed recently to include, "except immigration laws." Let me know if it has so I can add it to my scriptures.

joe5
South Jordan, UT

@BobP: And I wonder if people like you have ever grasped the concepts of pride taught in the BofM. What is it that makes you believe you are so superior to others, most of whom you have never even met, that you can question their faith?

Teafortwo
salt lake city, utah

Most illegals are uneducated, unskilled and desperately poor. We already have enough people of our own like that. We do not need more. They will always consume more in the way of services then they will ever contribute. On top of that, they are criminals. The fact that they want to have better lives does not give them the right to break the law. After all, isn't that what most criminals do? Break the law so they can have a better life? Illegals are no different. They are just more politically correct.......

BP
Salt Lake City, UT

I wonder how many of Sandstrom's ancestors filled out the proper paperwork and waited the proper amount of time to come to this country legally...I know some of mine that came over from Britain and Scandinavia two hundred years ago didn't.

RichardB
Murray, UT

If man is out of work, should he have the right to go into a rich mans yard, say someone who uses illegal labor in his business, and steal his belongings? What if he's otherwise honest and hard working, (except when he commits ID theft)? He is only trying to help his family have a better life, and he is stimulating the economy, since the rich man will have to replace the items stolen.

Sandstroms purposed law is very moderate. Treating people here illegally like other countries do, with rape, murder and robbery would be considered extreme. It seems all laws that help to enforce immigration are extreme to some.

Unemployment for another couple of years is going to bankrupt this country, unless we start clearing out those in jobs that they should not be working.

RichardB
Murray, UT

Christine, once again, the child has no rights to stay here alone until they are 18, nor do they have the right to keep their illegal parents here.

The child can be left with family members that are here illegally, if there parents wish.

Birthright citizenship has been badly abused. The children are being used as a tool to pry residency for those here illegally.

Teafortwo
salt lake city, utah

Ironmania - Are you really going to try to compare a few thousand American polygamists who mostly just want to be left alone to 12,000,000 illegals who are creating enormous social, economic and criminal problems? Are you really that ignorant?

joe5
South Jordan, UT

@BP: Of course, your argument sounds kind of silly when you realize there was no national immigration policy prior to the latter part of the 19th century. So please specify what laws your ancestors were breaking when they entered the country 200 years ago.

You can't do it. Your argument has no validity. And you have proven yourself to be willfully untruthful in the debate.

Jazz Bass Man
Wellsville, Utah

To all of you who scream about "compassion" and call every one who believes in the rule of law a "racist", I would like you to explain how it is compassionate or fair in any way to allow millions to stay here, who essentially butted in line. Why should they get amnesty just because they managed to sneak across our border? There are MILLIONS of people in Africa and South American countries who would love to come here legally and work hard to be a part of the American dream. So many wish they could be citizens of this country, as opposed to those who abuse our social systems by popping out anchor babies to get freebies or wave mexican flags in our streets. I donate thousands of dollars to sponsor very needy children in latin America and Africa (much worse off than mexicans), and yet you libs call me a racist because I believe in upholding immigration laws? Tell me, what have YOU done for the needy, or do you just think that everybody ELSE'S tax dollars should pay for the illegals? Becoming a legal citizen is not exactly easy, but anything that is worthwhile is never easy.

facts_r_stubborn
Kaysville, UT

The more citizens and policy makers can steer clear of the hot political rhetoric around this issue and stick to realistic solutions to a very real problem the better.

Yes, the immigration laws should be enforced, just like other laws. ICE has had their budget doubled in the last five years. Senator Hatch brought the first federal immigration court to Utah about four years ago. There are new Utah field offices in this same time frame and new programs like "secure communities". The federal 287(G) program allows local law enforcement to do everything the Sandstrom bill does and more, but only two Utah counties have adopted it.

Having said that, enforcement alone will not be as effective as comprehensive reform, anymore than enforcement has won the war on drugs, or any other crime.

No, the U.S. can no longer invite every immigrant to come here but we can remember the huddled masses who literally made this nation great. We can look at ways to encourage more immigrants who fill jobs not filled by existing citizens to come here. We can also craft intelligent legislation that does not punish the innocent who have lived here their entire lives.

Teafortwo
salt lake city, utah

This editorial from the NYT can be dismissed out of hand. Any argument that refers to enforcement of immigration laws as "xenophobic" is not worth the paper it is written on. It is just another play of the race card by people who have no other cards to play. The USA allows people of all races and ethnicities and virtually all foreign countries to enter the US after they have gone through the legal process. The prevention of illegal immigration is not xenophobic. It is the world-wide status quo....

Deluged
Salt Lake city, ut

A question never asked, or answered, is why this country needs immigration (legal or illegal) of any amount.

The simplest answer as to why this is so is because immigration enthusiasts do not have an adequate answer, or maybe it is because they've never asked themselves this question.

Mass immigration is unnecessary, at best.

We have 280 million people in the U.S. Ten percent of the country's adults are unemployed, while even more are underemployed.

It's not like we're running out of people, or "willing workers."

Immigration proponents chant their mantras -- "we're a nation of immigrants," etc. -- in order to pre-empt the asking of inconvenient questions.

Wolfgang57
Salt Lake City, UT

If you are a Native American, I will listen to what you say about who may live here and who may not. This is, after all, your land, stolen from you by murder, mayhem, rape, etc. If the U.S. government wants to pay Native Americans rent or lease payments, or just outright buy the land from the Native Americans , THEN and only then, can non-Native Americans say anything about who is on the land. Payments have not been made, treaties have been broken right and left. So, if you are not a Native American, no one should give two whoops in hell what you think. Go Native Pride! Demand rent for your land. (Or let the U.S. buy it from you, which ever you prefer.)

Jazz Bass Man
Wellsville, Utah

Wolfgang, so are the "native" Americans who moved in here uninvited from the Asian continent going to "pay rent" to those that THEY kicked out ten thousand years ago?

And by the way, "Go native pride" sounds just like "viva la raza" or "white power", but to libs like you it's all ok since your hatred is directed toward "white people".

And speaking of "buying", the United States DID purchase the American southwest from Mexico legally. But that doesn't stop liberals and LA RAZA/brown pride supremacists from thinking that it still belongs to mexico. You can't have it both ways.

Aaron Smith
West Jordan, UT

The Utah Compact is an important piece of legislation. No, we can't let have completely open borders, but no, building a fence isn't going to fix things, either. Trying to prevent people from moving away from Mexico isn't going to stop them from coming - not until we get to the actual root causes of this mass immigration are things going to change.

People on every side of the issue are so focused on immigration - why isn't anyone talking about WHY they're coming in such immense numbers, and what we can do to help them be happy where they are? All the immigration reform in the world isn't going to stop them from coming if they really can't stand it back home.

Gormax
Cedar Hills, UT

@SLars:

Statistics can lead us to different conclusions depending on how we interpret them. It may be true that $12K is the average illegals wage, which does put them in our poverty category. But lets ask questions before jumping to conclusions:

What wage did that person have before coming to the US? Its probable that it was much less or he wouldnt be here. This means we have raised his standard/quality of living.

What impact would removing this worker have on our economy? Costs money to remove him which adds to our debt. Business cant afford to pay higher wage and close or relocate (Herseys) so the legal manager loses his job too. These scenarios leave us with a worse situation all around.

@joe5

These people risk life and limb to get here, imprisonment and possible separation from their families.
The question to ask is why. These people are leaving a situation that is worse and are willing to risk all of this in order to survive. We find causes to help people out of similar situations (Pakistan floods), spending hundreds of millions. Why is this cause less noble?

RRB
SLC, UT

Bringing the LDS church into the fray is not going to help. Their policies are clear, people need to immigrate legally, and countries have the right to enforce immigration laws.

I have legal immigrant relatives, I also have acquaintances that are here illegally. People who come here legally want a better life and citizenship. Coming here illegally makes citizenship much more difficult. Those who come illegally do so for the jobs. It's much easier, with no wait, and once here, chances of deportation is slim.

We use to enforce our laws, and it worked. The amnesty of 1986 changed that. People found that if they came here illegally they could stay and work, have children that gave them a bargaining tool, and brought welfare to the family. Those who came here legally cannot receive help for 5 years.

They come illegally, because we allow it. With no punishment, there is no deterrent. The only way to solve it is with enforcement. The fear of being caught has stopped many people from doing wrong.

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