We all know the problem. A federal government that refuses to enforce our
current immigration laws enacted in 1996, after cries for reform. States, buried under the financial burden, are having to write their own laws.
The compact is quite simplistic, it does not directly reference the
illegal immigration problem. How about a new compact that defines the signers
stand on illegal immigration?
bstct Are you really serious? "Does the typical
American commit such acts on U.S. soil? " Um... yes. Do you really think that the majority of drug users are in jail or
prosecuted? Do you really think a high percentage of tax cheats get caught? Do
you really think that most who pirate software/music/movies are caught and
prosecuted? Are most Americans who drive drunk on i15 caught, and prosecuted?
This painting of hispanics as drug running drunk driving anti
american invaders from the south bent on the destruction of everything good and
wholesome is so over reaching.Most would prefer to stay in their
home countries if they felt they could get ahead and provide a better life for
their families. But bottom line, the system is totally broken.As to
your question about the Germany scenario... I am sure he is taking some's German
job, is using their medical system, uses their public services.To
your last statement, are you implying that Hispanics aren't ticketed, cited,
arrested, fined or prosecuted, if caught? What was the point there?
@radically_independentInteresting that you refer to the topic of
credibility, and then imply that in terms of degree and sheer pervasiveness, the
criminality, disdain and disrespect of the typical, legal U.S. resident for the
U.S. is somehow on par with that of the typical illegal alien. And
what is your point regarding your father? Okay, so he chooses to retain his
U.S. citizenship and not become a German citizen, fine. But does he not RESPECT
the laws and customs of Germany? Did he ILLEGALLY INVADE Bundesrepublik
Deutschland? Does he engage in document FRAUD? Has he committed identity
THEFT? Does he engage in PERJURY? Is his primary purpose for residing in
Germany the systematic theft and plunder of the German treasury, its public
services, its medical services, and its welfare system? Does your father merge
onto the AutoBahn drunk? Does he cause an increase in the rate of violent and
other crime in Germany and otherwise erode its quality of life? I
doubt it. Does the typical American commit such acts on U.S. soil?
No. If that American does, is he NOT ticketed, cited,
arrested, fined, or prosecuted, if caught? Of course he is.
Interesting how so many are so compassionate towards illegal aliens yet show no
compassion, not even a mention, of those legal residence who are negatively
effected by illegals being here.
"The typical illegal alien has pure disdain for the U.S., its laws, its
people, and its values"Based on what do you make this
statement? Would you say the same for all the people who use creative
accounting to break tax law also have a blanket disdain for the U.S.Statements like these are so over reaching that they immediately discredit
anything else the writer might have said that was factual, positive, and working
toward a solution. Because someone breaks a law does not mean thay
hold the city, state or country they reside in with "pure disdain".
Average US citizens break laws every day. Some because the laws are stupid and
out of date, some because they don't know about them, and some because they are
minor infractions.My dad works in Germany, his father in the UK.
Neither have a desire to become British or German, neither wants to give up
their US citizen ship. The hold neither the U.S. nor their host countries in
disdain. You don't have to change citizenship or wrap yourself in a countries
flag to respect and love also that country."pure disdain"
from another "perfect" conservative.
Of course Eli Cawley is right: the Compact signers are lying each time they use
the word "immigrant" in their "compact." These
"leaders," in their suits and ties AND WITH THEIR PRETENSES OF
RIGHTEOUSNESS, COMPASSION AND CONSERVATISM (e.g. "conservative think
tank"), know perfectly well that the issue is not in regard to immigrants
and immigration but rather to ILLEGAL immigrants and ILLEGAL immigration. And
yet they very cunningly, slyly, falsely and dishonestly insinuate that Sandstrom
and his supporters (that is to say, the MAJORITY of Utahns) are opposed to
immigration and hate immigrants when, in fact, we welcome immigrants who
genuinely desire to be Americans and who are willing to pledge allegiance to the
U.S. flag with sincerity and fidelity. The typical illegal alien has pure
disdain for the U.S., its laws, its people, and its values. I
rejoice in the justice and truthfulness of Eli Cawley's words. I stand with
Sandstrom and with the Utah Minuteman Project.
@ van "If you were brought over here when you were 10 years old..."
By the PARENTS. The LAWLESS PARENTS did this to their children.
From CU we have this beautiful quote "Salt Lake is now considered a major
hub for black tar heroin distribution and the bulk of it comes from Mexico via
illegal immigration"You know, I read the same article by Sam
Qunonos of the Los Angeles Times. And it made the very claims you echoed. But
here is the rub. Someone has to be buying the stuff. And it isn't hispanics,
but middle class Americans. So this is yet another case of blame the seller
because we just can't blame the person who is the user. Same with prostitution.
If these women just wouldn't sell themselves, these men would behave
themselves. But we don't want to blame the people who liven in
houses like ours, and look like us. It has to be the evil other people who
trick these people. Bottom line, if people didn't buy, they wouldn't be here
trying to sell. Not excusing it. Dealers need to be held
responsible. But like everything else, there are two sides to every coin - and
two sides to every story. Focusing on only one side tells a false story.
Our lack of Federal enforcement of immigration laws, has stopped the enforcing
of Visa laws and overstays, leading to human trafficking and exploitation. Until
that, and the almost 10% unemployment is ended, it's not an option. Our quotas need to first and foremost, protect American jobs, we also need to
make it fair to people from all parts of the world. Not just those that demand
our laws be changed for their needs. Amnesty in any form, by
allowing people breaking the law to stay, is not an option. It just puts off the
problem to another time, creates more illegal immigration by people looking for
the next amnesty, and rewarding those who break our laws. It goes against common
sense, just like it did in 1986. After 25 years of promises and
depressed wages, it's time to stop this game of economic dominoes against our
poor and middle class.
I hope that our elected representatives have the courage to resist the corner
that our "unelected leaders" have carefully put them in. The collapsing of the myriad issues associated with immigration into a nice
sounding set of points in the Utah Compact should make us suspicious that we are
being carefully misled by those who created and signed it. They
don't really want a debate and they don't want to see reality - they only want a
nice polite acceptance of their views by the rest of us. To
continue on the path our elites have put us on is folly. We should seek what is
best for the nation as a whole in the long-term.
I just find it amazing that the LDS Church did not have an official member of
its' First Presidency sign this.
Two people both claim to support legal immigration. One actually hates
immigrants. Ask him and he will reveal his cynical ploy by saying he will fight
any attempt to increase the flow of legal migration "until the border is
sealed and all illegals are rounded up and deported." In other words,
never. The second acknowledges the value of immigration and
supports both a broad expansion of visa quotas and a path to legal residency for
those whose only violation is wanting to come help us build our country.Fortunately the truth is on the side of the second. As the truth
spreads about immigration's effects on crime rates, the economy, wages, etc.
more people will join the compact. We need them and they need us.
To Mr Bean.I think you miss the point. I bet you have broken many laws in
your life. I was trying to make a point there are thousands of innocent people
that are involved, like children, Spouses, parents friends ect.I ask
myself how is it that you and people like Mr Sandstrom can't see the hundreds
of thousands of lives this effects other than just the person that is in the
country illegally. If you got a speeding ticket, do you think everyone in
your family should pay a fine also? When I think of Mr Sandtroms
approach I get a sick feeling. All those families that are seperated in the
name of breaking a small law, like speeding. I think most people
in this state wants a bill that helps families stay together. To help people
progress. Why not support a bill that would allow illegals to earn their stay
by giving back to the community.I hope Sandstroms bill will be
thrown in the garbage where it belongs. I also hope our leaders will stop
listen to the talk radio zombies and listen to decent leaders that signed the
Van,It was the action of the illegal in marrying and fathering
children that placed those children in danger of having their family broken up.
By your logic, a guy whose father gave him a beer at age ten, who
then went on to become an alcoholic, should not be prosecuted for drunk driving
if he has his kids in the car.
@UtahVoter 2:53 p.m."...I would recommend that they do that and
then keep reading just one more article for the appropriate context of what kind
of laws and government we believe in upholding."It (13th
Article) says in part 'If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report
or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.'What is virtuous and
praiseworthy about someone sneaking into this country and occupying someone
else's property?"Everyone agrees the laws need to be changed
and are basically unenforceable in their current state."Not
true. Most think that immigration laws now on the books are adequate. The
problem is, the Obama Administration refuses to enforce the laws despite the
fact that he swore, in reciting the oath of office, that he would uphold them.
@Informed Voter 12:36 a.m."All my life at home and at church I
was taught to obey the law."Apparently the LDS 12th Article of
Faith no longer applies... Which says: 'We believe in... obeying, honoring, and
sustaining the law. Or, maybe this does not apply to illegal immigrants.--------- @ van 12:30 p.m."You are married
to a us citizen (still being illegal) with children that are US citizens, would
you still support your bill?"I would support his bill. All who
are here illegally can start the process of becoming legal by filling out the
appropriate papers, leaving the country, and getting in line. If you are dumb
enough to start a family as an illegal, they will have to be deported with you.
Good luck.And if you are illegal, how is it that you can get a job
here... which is also illegal?"Knowing you could get deported
under your law, knowing there is almost no hope for you to ever return?"There are billions around the world who would like to come to the US.
We can't take them all. View 'Immigration Gumballs' on YouTube to see why.
I, for one, am very grateful for the Utah Compact and its brave signers.As for the good responder who oversimplified the immigration questions
into "Read the 12th Article of Faith", I would recommend that they do
that and then keep reading just one more article for the appropriate context of
what kind of laws and government we believe in upholding.To those
who say either 'uphold the law' *or* 'change it', I say "Yes,
exactly". Everyone agrees the laws need to be changed and are basically
unenforceable in their current state. It's a problem we should have solved long
ago. But the solution is not in making immigration more difficult.Our draconian and xenophobic immigration laws bear no resemblance to the rules
under which most of ancestors traveled here. For the first 100 years of our
nation's existence, the Federal government did not even pretend to have the
right to dictate lists of how many people could cross our borders of certain
ethnicities. That didn't start until some opportunistic and racist California
congressmen proposed some anti-Chinese limits in the late 1800's.The
laws do need changing. The UT Compact points the right way.
Interesting how the deseret news screens most of the comments from those of us
who are concerned about illegal activity, but they sure will post the
submissions of liberals who support the illegals. Even libs from
Santa Monica California who have no business with what Utah does.
Go, Mr Sandstrom. You have my support and I will let my rep know it.
You Minutemen supporters frighten me far more than the "horrors" of
illegal immigration. Your sense of paranoria fascinates me. Is it something
you eat? Something you drink? What drives you? How do you sleep at nights?
@JBrady: You are half correct. We have civil laws for those who overstay
visas. There are no criminal laws. None. The only way a visa overstayer faces
deportation is through the violation of OTHER criminal laws or if they
voluntarily leave the country.My point is that folks who are blindly
exhorting church teaching to obey the law do not appear to understand how broken
the laws actually are.
Was there any doubt in anyone's mind that in addition to the Atty General, who
is supposed to enforce the law, Chris Burbak would also sign onto this? With
guys like this in charge it is no wonder we have illegals running amok all over
the state. Salt Lake is now considered a major hub for black tar
heroin distribution and the bulk of it comes from Mexico via illegal
immigration. With these two in charge of law enforcement we will probably be the
heroin capital of the nation soon as they are too busy running around signing
compacts that seek to excuse them from doing their jobs to ever actually get
anything done. These two are truly pathetic.
A question for Mr Sandrtrom and all that support his bill.If you
were brought over here when you were 10 years old fifteen years ago. Now...You are married to a us citizen(still being illegal) with children that
are US citizens, would you still support your bill. Knowing you could get
deported under your law, knowing there is almos no hope for you to ever
return?Please answer it Mr Sandstrom. I kind of think you might have a
different opinion.Sad to see people so hateful and unforgiving to
such a complex issue.There bad carma will catch up to them.
Those of you who are concerned with illegal trespassers: taking our jobs, having
Americans pay for their healthcare, providing them with welfare, free education,
etc.,- NEED TO REMEMBER - PLEASE, PLEASE, - contact your state
representatives, state senators, especially during the next legislative session
and ask them to support Sandstroms bill! You can bet that the organized
groups who don't mind YOU paying the costs' of illegal trespassing will be doing
the best they can to "water down", or eliminate Sandstroms' bill!Many thanks to Representative Sandstrom for his efforts to stop theft of
state services by illegal trespassers!
Truth... nice red herring comment there. American tourist are being killed on
the Mexican boarder... and Obama and the Libs aren't doing anything about it
(nor did Bush, Clinton, Bush, Reagon...).Here is the funny thing,
check and see how many "american tourist" have been killed on the
boarder of Mexico (abt 200 since 2004, only 70 of those did not involve drug
trafficing - Houston Chronical). Now compare how Americans were killed in Utah
over that same period (285 - UCR Crime Statistics). But hey, if you
can brand Mexicans and being a murderous people, what ever it takes. If the
truth doesn't work, make up your own truth it seems. 17 million Americans
visited Mexico each year. Over 85 million over the last 6 years. So 70 is what
percent of 85 Million? Yes, this "Mexican" murder of 70
American Toursist problem should be the top issue - not the 285 Americans killed
in Utah over the same period.If Sanderson wanted to solve a real
problem, he should worry about local issues he has control over (jobs, taxes,
schools). Not grand standing for political gain.
Bravo, Sandstrom!Boo, Burbank!What part of illegal do some
people not understand?Failure to distinguish between legal and
illegal immigrants renders the "compact" utterly ridiculous and merely
deceptive grandstanding at best, or at worst it is deliberate deception to
confuse the public.Illegals go home, and those who support them must
be held accountable.Welcome, legal immigrants!
The compact is a publicity stunt to try to sway public opinion against
enforcement of the laws, and keeping things the way they are now. I
fully support measures to help Utah enforce immigration, and stop those that
reject our laws. E-verify must have a fine, drivers privileged cards
are a bad joke perpetuated on Utah's citizens, they need to be removed from use.
(insurance can be purchased without a Utah license) We don't need to
be mean spirited, just require people to be here honestly. Allowing millions of
people to break our laws, sets a dangerous precedent.
Read the 12th Article of Faith. Illegal is illegal!
The geniuses behind the CON PACT forgot to consult the only group whose opinion
actually matters, the people of Utah. Polls how a majority support the AZ law
and want it passed here. So if I were the Sutherland Institute I wouldn't count
my chickens before they hatch. Sandstrom is way more in line with the people of
the state than you are. The minutemen are the only ones defending us from the
illegal invasion of our nation, the people who wrote this document are waving
the white flag.
raybies; the Utah compact is not a law, but an opinion of a group of people.
Most openly support the pro-illegal side of illegal immigration. Nate Daniels; we do have civil and criminal laws for those who overstay Visas.
It can lead to fines and possible jail time, plus deportation. Mexico is building a fence on their southern border, maybe they know
something? It seems personal responsibility went out the window the
past few decades. Do we need these laws? Yes. America overwhelmingly wants
immigration laws enforced. I don't think we can try America's patience much
American Tourists are dying on the mexican border and Obama and the libs are
doing nothing......Glad someone has the sense to take this illegal issue
seriously! You have my support Sandstrom!
The law is compassionate, it is the breaking of it that has no compassion. Just
more exploitation with a false name.
Hatch doesn't have to worry about Shurtleff in 2012 since Shurtleff signed this
deception. Shurtleff won't make it out of the convention.
FYI to all those claiming "we need to enforce/obey our laws." Our
existing laws have no effect on immigrants who came here legally through a valid
port of entry and over-stayed their Visas. This group makes up as much as 50%
of the "undocumented" population depending on who you ask.Also, why do we never hear the minutemen talking about the root of the
problem. People don't take pregnant wives and small children across deserts and
through dangerous towns because they want an X-Box 360 or to see Hannah Montana
in concert. There is usually something very wrong where they came from that
makes them want to go somewhere else. Considering that Guatemala and El
Salvador are the other options, I don't think a fence and some extra attention
from local law enforcement are going to change anything.
I am always amazed at how people spin their opinions around highly charged
political issues. We live in a country that should be based on adherence to the
law of the land. When people talk about splitting up families or religious
leaders opinions, I wonder what that has to do with law. Obey the law or change
the law. According to the law, the only choice for people illegally here is to
take their family back to their legal country. If they want their children to
live here, they have to let them live with a legal resident. Words like
compassion have no place with obeying the law. If the majority of Americans want
to change the law, then we can change their status to legal. Until that happens,
then they have to leave the country. I am tired of all the rhetoric about this.
Thiefs sneak into business or homes to perform illegal acts. Watch Border Wars
and you will see the lengths illegal individuals sneak into The United States.
We didn't drag them across the border.
I find it amusing that some individuals seek to speak for the "silent
majority". If my observations indicates what the "silent
majority" thinks then I would say that Chief Burbank would be incorrect
(and unemployed...) and that the tone and intent of the letter writer would be
more in line with reality.It would be interesting to do a poll (a
real one...)that would measure the reaction to this compact and see what Utahns
are actually thinking...Personally, I believe that there has to be a
balance between compassion and the rule of law. The laws exist to ensure order
and justice. Compassion exists to create mercy and goodwill. Neither can exist
without the other and I do not believe that we are balanced correctly at this
time. I believe that the rule of law has been ignored and that the attempt to
re-balance will be painful. It is natural for those who favor compassion to
resist this rebalancing but it must be done for the benefit of all.Failure to rebalance will lead to further erosion of the rule of law that will
hurt us all.
Rep. Sandstrom you have my support. Legal immigration is the only solution to
the illegal problem. Viva legal immigration.
There is a false dichotomy of mercy vs justice. Those who think the status quo
is merciful are ignoring important facts:Congress could fix
immigration laws to get the right number of people here legally and safely.Congress instead tacitly encourages illegal immigration, risking the
lives of those who have to pay treacherous coyotes, and haul backpacks full of
drugs as their "payment", etc.This policy also jeopardizes
the safety and security of our nation, by encouraging immigration with
essentially no health or criminal background checks.Once illegal
immigrants arrive, they still must live in the shadows and be in fear of
deportation.Many companies prefer to hire cheap labor that isn't
subject to minimum wage laws, don't demand safe working conditions, won't be
likely to sue for worker's comp, will work overtime, without needing to be paid
double-wages.The same companies make large donations to the
congressmen who keep the laws, just as they are, rather than making them
reasonable.Those who argue for "mercy" by encouraging the
status quo are being played by professional politicians and the lobbyists who
buy their elections.
Most of us believe the moral high ground is following the law, and encouraging
others too do likewise.
The first line of this article tells you everything you need to know about the
bias of the article's author. It characterizes Sandstrom's bill as
"restrictive", yet it doesn't do anything more restrictive than the
current federal law. It just makes many of the same things that are a violation
of federal law, a violation of state law, so that they can more reliably be
enforced.All of the items in the AZ bill that were questioned as
being unconstitutional have been removed from Sandstrom's bill.The
facts around this bill tell a very different story than the hype that the media
fuels by quoting racial-organization "spokesmen" who mis-characterize
The Minutemen are doing what our spineless politicians won't. They're pushing to
see that the existing laws are enforced. Minutemen are patriots!
What is the law? Intractable? We the people organize law and it is meant to
adapt to our circumstances.I'm amazed by some of the negative
reactions to the Utah Compact. This is law to help solve some of the most
divisive aspects of immigration--splitting up families and uprooting those who
are contributing to our society--and a hateful faction is claiming, "Well,
those LAWS don't count."There's a sickness in this country. One
that requires punishment and ignores the enobling-freeing aspects of the law. It
wants us to believe that the only solution is to use the law as a weapon, when
laws could improve our country. Throwing out families that
contribute to the core values of our country--they believe in freedom, family,
marriage, hard work, God, and opportunity through these means, are being
systematically bulldozed by fearmongers that crave political gravitas and their
simpleminded solutions only make decent families into criminals punishable only
by exile. This is wrong.The churches of Utah get it. All
Utah is waking up to better solutions. We are not frightened pharisees. We
welcome our brothers and sisters, generously providing them with legal means to
An old story, mercy vs. justice, being retold: Les Miserables and even Christ's
redemption itself. I favor a benevolent society with jurisdiction that emulates
I agree with Mr Cawley's statements, as I believe the larger segment of Utah
Citizens do. Of course, unscrupulous business owners and
sanctimoneous church leaders are going to support illegal immigration since they
profit from it.The burden of the cost is again heaped upon the backs of
the US tax payers.I find it interesting that this 'compact' was not
released until after the election. We will remember when it is time to vote
again and will make our voices heard until then. Herbert OUT!
This compact is absurd and illegal. Utah cannot take on the role of federal
government or negotiate disregard and repeal of federal laws or enforcement of
federal laws. This compact is a secret contract among busies leaders and
criminals illegal aliens occupying the territory of Utah and the United States.
We are not talking about immigrants, we are talking about illegal foreign
nationals, undocumented, diseased and criminal breaching our borders by force
with no invitation or even an application to enter.This compact is a
ticket to Utah businesses to subvert federal labor laws and tax laws the rights
of the Utah citizens and the American people. Go Sandstorm, we are still with
you and include occupation by illegal foreign nationals as a crime in your bill.
Once and for all, define the difference in immigration and foreign occupation in
a state law. Immigration is with documentation, foreign occupation is criminal
intent and no documentation.Also add that anchor children are not
defensible as cause not to deport entire families back to Mexico. In fact
revocation of all birth certificates of illegal alien children be revoked as
citizens of America.
Witness the difference in posturing between the two sides. Cawley is remarkably
blunt. It is an unrefined bluntness ("illegal derrieres") but it is
honest, and we all know what he means, and we know his analysis of the ulterior
motives of Compact signers is spot on.Meanwhile, the Compact signers
produced a document filled with moral grandstanding, attempting to slyly
question the humanity of their opponents. The document contradicted numerous
positions they have all taken before. For example, how do they reconcile federal
control of immigration policy with a Utah guest worker program, or Utah's
undermining of immigration enforcement through giving illegals driver's licenses
and in-state tuition?They say we should not separate families. Talk
to soldiers serving in Iraq, or inmates with children on the outside - or to
illegal immigrants who come HERE and leave their families behind.And, of course, they were not even honest enough to explain that they are
talking about illegal immigrants, not legal ones.The Utah Compact is
both mean-spirited and fundamentally dishonest. That says a lot about those who
Illegal is illegal. All my life at home and at church I was taught to obey the
law. So now is that no longer important? I hope the legislature passes a strong
anti-illegal immigrant law that forces the so called Chief of Police to enforce
the law. I am bored by the red herring that families of illegals will be split.
Everyone can go to their home country together.
Re: Cawley: "The issue is cheap illegal alien labor and church
membership, and everyone knows it."While I agree in principle
with the compact, Mr. Cawley has told the truth. Cheap illegal alien labor
depresses wage rates. Indeed it is one of the reason for the stagnation of real
wages in the United States the last 40 years. This is a troublesome issue for
me: compassion is called for with regard to breaking up families, but it IS
ABOSLUTELY unfair to domestic labor of all races and ethnicities.
Exactly how does enforcing immigration laws separate families? In every article
I can find on the Internet, the children have returned with their parents. Children under 18 that were born here have no legal right to stay here
alone. But can stay with family, it is the parents decision.
At this time, I would really like to see what the Minuteman Project has to say.
The Minuteman Project has been to the Mexican border. What do they see? What
does their research and understanding suggest we do about out illegal
immigration problem here in Utah?Politicians and businessmen who
benefit from illegal immigration have signed the Utah Compact, which is yet
another piece of paper that doesn't offer solutions. The Minuteman Project has
more to say than "the Compact sucks." Please, DN, can we dig a little