Something that has been on my mind for a long time was how promises can be made
but not kept. Something we all have to remember (and I am constantly being
reminded of) is promises from God are on His time-line and not ours. The eternal
scheme of things is the real thing that any Apostle of the Lord has in his
sights and not just this life.Also, we all have to remember (again)
that people are only human and imperfect. So whether the congregations are
ignoring those members who have same-sex attractions (which is deplorable to me
that those members would even go so far as to ignore them) or people are
outraged or people follow their feelings, we are not perfect. We ALL have room
for improvement, and that INCLUDES members of the Church. That also includes the
Apostles and the Prophet. Even Moses couldn't live in the promised land due to
disobeying God, and Peter denied Christ three times.One more thing:
No one ever said that gay PEOPLE were made by the devil. PEOPLE were created by
God, but TEMPTATION and SIN is from the devil.
Would have been more clear if I'd have used "disagrees with" rather than
"disavow(s)" and etc,Sorry for that ...
Seems like maybe these are perhaps the core questions in the minds of the LDS
?1) Can gays/lesbians agree that it is possible for someone who
disavows same sex intimacy to otherwise satisfactorily demonstrate respect for
gay and/or lesbian individuals and couples ? 2) Can gays/lesbians
agree that churches which disavow same sex intimacy should not be required to
perform gay and/or lesbian marriages and/or be required to permit those not
disavowing same sex intimacy to determine membership and/or participation rights
Realitycheck:Two points. 1 - Just because many of us
base our opinions on the subject on our belief in God does not mean that our
opinions are any less valid than yours are because you do not believe in God.
Every person in this country goes into the voting booth with their morals and
values, circumstances, life experience, etc., with them, and votes according to
their own conscience. We allow you that right, and to deny it to others simply
because they have different morals and life experiences than you do is
unConstitutional...whereas homosexual marriage is, at this time, not.2 - "I'm shocked that you can't see just how wrong it is to force everyone to
follow your beliefs" If we were actually forcing others to follow our beliefs,
there would be no smoking, drinking or drugs. There would be no drinking Coke or
Pepsi or Mountain Dew. There would be no rated-R movies, or premarital sex, or
adultery, or practicing homosexuals. There would no Starbucks. You would be
forced to attend all of your meetings, pay your tithing, fast once a month, wear
modest clothing, etc. Clearly, we're not forcing you to do anything.
Does anyone else feel like the gays you love deserved more from the HRC? I was
excited for the visit, and I don’t expect activists to approach the
compassion and openness of LDS Church leaders but I thought the HRC, at least,
would build on common ground, discuss what they could do TOGETHER to stop
bullying, of gays, and the ongoing bullying of LDS by activists, etc. They are
human rights workers after all. Instead they almost bullyingly
blamed, demanded that an aged Disciple rescind something that he never said and
that he conform his belief to their morality, and they claimed that APA/activist
opinions were science etc. .. On the other hand the LDS repeat of
compassion was broad and inclusive.I’m certain
Elder Packer leads in supporting the Church position on homosexuality. As
Christ’s steward he teaches me compassion for all, and that the natural
born human exhibits diversity in desires, weaknesses, and passions, and there is
no need to feel guilt about that, for Christ was likewise tempted. Evidence indicates that genes do not create homosexuality, homosexual
environments do “illicit” it, and gays changing behaviors for
religion suffer no ills. (see Evergreen, narth, etc)
Thank you to the LDS church for making a strong moral stand on this issue. In a
time when everyone else is willing to fold to any political pressure the Church
stands firm and it is greatly appreciated.
People, this life is a test. We are all given trails. e are asked to follow Gods
law so that we can return home to be with him.
To members of the gay community: We as members of the LDS Church love you and
care about your well being. We believe that God's goal for us in this life, as
well as the next, is for us to be happy and we want you to be happy just like
anybody else. But please understand that we believe that the only way to be
truly happy is by living the commandments of God. We believe that going against
His commandments will in the end only bring pain. President Packer expressed no
hate for you; in fact, his message, and mine as well, was solely of love to
anybody who struggles with breaking any commandment. I don't expect you to
change your mind because of me, but please understand that we believe that
homosexuality is a sin, and therefore can only lead to unhappiness in the end.
We want you to be happy, and for that reason we oppose homosexuality, just as we
oppose pornography, drug use, dishonesty, and anything else that we believe is a
sin. We help anybody with such problems, and President Packer's message was an
invitation for you to accept Christs help.
Just imagine what woulde be if we were all like that nobody would be here at
all. It is a life choice for these people whom take on same sex relationships it
definately isnt something they were born to they are still children of a loving
heavenly Father BUT Heavenly Father would be most dissapointed by thier actions
and regard that as sin against His commandments
Assuming that gay people are born that way then it would indicate that gay
behavior is genetically controlled. This theory sets up an interesting scenario.
Suppose scientists did discover a gay gene; what is to prevent society from
providing genetic counseling to pregnant women, to have their unborn child
tested to see whether or not that unborn child possess the gene? If it is
discovered that the fetus does have the gene, would the woman or couple be
given the option to decide to have the child or terminate the pregnancy? What
it all boils down to is if there really is a gay gene; after a generation,
homosexuality would disappear unless we want to outlaw abortions. I
don’t want to come off as sounding cruel but if a gay gene exists and it
is scientifically proven, that is going to be the reality that will exist.
To jasonlivyAcceptance of the lifestyle/behavior is not the issue.
Denying rights because of it is!The American Psychological
Association says "there are numerous theories about the origins of a person's
sexual orientation. Most scientists today agree that sexual orientation is most
likely the result of a complex interaction of environmental, cognitive and
biological factors. In most people, sexual orientation is shaped at an early
age. There is also considerable recent evidence to suggest that biology,
including genetic or inborn hormonal factors, play a SIGNIFICANT role in a
person's sexuality. It's important to recognize that there are probably many
reasons for a person's sexual orientation, and the reasons may be different for
different people."Is sexual orientation a choice?No,
human beings cannot choose to be either gay or straight. For most people, sexual
orientation emerges in early adolescence without any prior sexual experience.
Although we can choose whether to act on our feelings, psychologists do not
consider sexual orientation to be a conscious choice that can be voluntarily
changed.Can therapy change orientation?The reality is
that homosexuality is not an illness. It does not require treatment and is not
Thanks to Mike Otterson for a job WELL DONE.Nobody could have done it
better... I just hope that all LDS would learn... LOVE and not judge.There
are families that suffer, individuals who suffer - victims that suffer.Thanks Mike.Jussi
There has to be something chemical or horomonal that takes place inside a gay
person to make them attracted to the same sex because first off, who would
choose to be gay. I dont say that with disrespect but it is like saying you want
to be discrimnated against and looked at differently on a daily basis.What makes straight people straight? I cant overcome my heterosexuality to
become a homosexual. I couldnt be coached, counseled, or sit with a therapist on
how to become gay.Certain people are predisposed to certain genetic
anomolys and I am certain gay people fall in that category.
TO: JiggleThis is exactly my point. We are being labeled haters,
judgmental, intolerant, and unfair because we don't accept the homosexual
behavior! No evidence has been unearthed, no gene has been discovered, and no
science has proven that says 'they are born that way'. Some groups work
tirelessly to 'prove' that homosexuality is an in-born trait which would
absolutely take away any hope left for those who want to discard this behavior
from their lives. For many this hope of a positive change in their lives is all
they have...However many choose this lifestyle and proclaim that
they are picked on. They want us to accept their behavior as no different than
the contrasting tastes we have for food, or the divergent tastes we have for
clothing, etc. It's calling evil good, a total misrepresentation. This idea was
revealed to ancient prophets thousands of years ago that man would fall into
these traps! Why are we so blind? Why are we so hard-hearted as to not see the
real truth?Millions of dollars will be poured into studying the
causes of homosexuality. What will we find? That it's ultimately a choice...
I am a single LDS woman. I enjoyed Pres. Packers talk and know that it was given
with love. It was given to LDS people who believe that the acts of homosexulity
is morally wrong. If you are not LDS I do not understand why you are
sooooooooooooo upset! If you do not believe our gospel then why should it upset
you if you hear something you don't agree with.I have a cousin who is gay,
she is loved by us and accepted, I have also had friends who were gay. I hear a
lot that the gays are upset for the fact that the church's council to them is to
stay active and not marry. They use this council to prove the the LDS leaders
and members don't understand their need and desire to marry and have families,
and yet there are thousands of LDS women you will never marry, never have their
dream fullfilled for the simple fact that there are not enough priesthood
holders for all of them. yet they are given the same council as the gays,they
live their lives yearning for what they can never have,yet remain faithful.
@Craigo 1:13 p.m."However, a person with SSA is expected to live by
the same morals as a hetro. Chastity before marriage, and fidelity after."Are you kidding? Right now SSA's can't legally marry, and Oak's Church
specifically and emphatically condemns it.Some Churches teach that
you will have the same feelings, intelligence, morals, etc., as you have in this
life after you die. Which seems to say that you will still have a homosexual
orientation in the next life.
I understand how some can actually believe that same-sex attraction is inborn.
However, mankind does not act on instinct. That means that we are able to
change our lives or even our sexual orientation. Is it easy, of course not.
Nothing in this life is supposed to be easy. There are some where this
attraction may make it nearly impossible to avoid the attraction. When members
state emphatically it is genetic and the leaders are only speaking their opinion
especially during General Conference are way off base in my opinion. He is a
prophet that chose his words wisely and propelled what I feel and know are
correct and viable. We were not placed here to be acted upon but to
act for ourselves. The same-sex attraction is a tendency not genetic. This has
been proven by science to be true. As President Packer stated our Heavenly
Father will not give us a tendency if he doesn't make away for us to overcome
it. The act of homosexuality is a CHOICE, plain and simple. Those who say it
can't be reversed, there is no hope for you so you must give in to it are wrong.
"In the church's statement later Tuesday afternoon, Otterson reiterated
doctrinal positions – the church considers any sexual activity outside of
marriage as wrong, and it defines marriage as between a man and a woman."The LDS Church has taken the same stance by G-d's word as every other
Bible believing Christian denomination, for when it comes to doctrine there is
only one truth, and that is the truth that has been given to us by our Creator.
There are some that would pervert that truth through hatred, but such do not
represent the truth of G-d, nor of the Christian Church wherever it is found.
realitycheck247Talk about trying to FORCE others to comply with your
beliefs: Let's not pretend that the post Prop 8 terrorism didn't occur. I saw it
and experienced it! See, no one can have a "dialogue" with the group
you have come on this post to represent, because for that to occur, YOU would
have to accept that others will and DO have a different viewpoint than you. But
you refuse to do that. Instead you (as a group) name call and terrorize and
threaten and mock ("nice fairy tale". What is this grade school?!). That is not
a dialogue. That is YOU trying to FORCE your opinions on others. We
both know that under current California state law, marriage IS and has to be
taught in the classroom from Kindergarten on. So changing the definition of
marriage would then require that same sex marriage be taught. It is not the
state's right to teach children something that their parent's find immoral. So
who are YOU to force me to give up my parental rights? And, by the way, Mormons
are a VERY small minority in Cali -- we didn't pass Prop 8 alone.
And yet realitycheck247,You reckon time the same way everyone else
does in the real world, 2010 years since the birth of Christ.And you
still came from the first two parents that inhabited the Earth no matter how bad
you are at keeping genealogical records.Fact is, God exists whether
you believe in Him or not. The evidences of creation, and an order
to that creation, are all around you; even though believers don't force you to
follow their beliefs, understand when we don't give in to your beliefs either
(of chaos and discord, where no one is in charge).Lots of great
comments on here. I read everyone's comments and respected how well thought out
they really were. I feel for humanity's struggle, being born with temptations
toward un-Godly desires from birth, and wish everyone well in living a more
perfect way. Deny God if you want, but living His way brings me more
happiness than I could ever know otherwise--something we all seek--so there is
no way I would deny Him and thereby deny myself the love he gives by justice and
mercy that allows me to progress.
I realize this is a religious forum so one can expect religious answers... but
most people on the planet don't have the same beliefs as you, and many don't
think your God even exists. Yet you would spend millions of dollars and
thousands of man-hours to ensure people that have nothing to do with your
beliefs are held to your beliefs... ever heard of sharia law? is that what you
have become?no one (outside your church) even cares what your
church's stance is on LGBT and SSM. It is only when you use your influence to
FORCE EVERYONE to comply to your beliefs that it is a problem.Those
of you saying "it's not our opinion, it's God's law" or "Adam and Eve" (a real
nice fairy tale, by the way) and quoting scriptures... so what? Speaking
quotes from an old book means absolutely nothing. You are witholding rights
from law-abiding and tax-paying people simply because you have a belief in a
deity. That's not even reasonable. I'm shocked that you can't see just how
wrong it is to force everyone to follow your beliefs.
Very well said statement and one that cannot be argued back. Excellent. Thank
you for the clarification.
THe Homosexual/lesbian community can protest all it wants; God's laws DO NOT
change, period. The Bible is the word of the Lord, and no amount of excuses on
these peoples' part is going to change it. They are just trying to justify
their abhorrant behavior. Love the sinner, but hate the sin. "I the Lord can
not look on sin with the least allowance." What part of this do they not
understand? I can't imagine the pain they are experiencing with this struggle,
but I have to believe that a large part of this is brought on by
themselves...deal with it. I agree wholehartedly with the stand the church is
taking. The Lord's laws and commandments do not change, and never will. If you
have faith in God and Christ, this CAN be overcome. It is a choice.
The answer for LDS homosexuals is to leave the church. The church isn't going to
change its stance, ever, on ss marriage or sexuality outside of marriage,
meaning you will never have a chance for a legitimate sexual relationship (like
your parents and siblings). For those who want to pursue the full experience of
earth life, including parenthood, commitment, and a loving, committed
relationship, there is no reasonable alternative than to leave. To those who
choose to stay in: you will be marginalized, by definition, and nothing and no
one will be able to change that except you because the church won't -- the
church can't -- change its position on homosexuality, other than offering what
it has. Start praying for the courage to discover a god who loves you as you
I commend Boyd Packer and the leaders of the LDS church for not swaying from the
doctrines. Everybody in society has something to overcome so why do they think
they should get special treatment. If the homosexual community spent as much
time trying to live the gospel as they do fighting it maybe there would not be
A "right" to homosexuality? Where in the world did THAT "right" come from?
Every dictionary I've ever read defines marriage pretty much the same way as the
Bible describes it... as a union between a "husband" (defined as a man) and a
"wife" (defined as a woman.) Whatever else so-called homosexual "marriage" is
supposed to accomplish ... one thing it clearly does is to make every dictionary
obsolete. Who gets to pay for changing and reprinting every dictionary
now in existence if the meaning of the word "marriage," which has meant the
union of a man and a woman for thousands of years, is altered to include sodomy?
If you are older than age seven, even in your lifetime sodomy was
a criminal offense. In 1986 the US Supreme Court UPHELD laws that outlawed
sodomy in Bowers v Hartwick. In 2003, the Supreme Court ruled that the Texas
law forbidding sodomy was unconstitutional. And 7 years later we are
talking about... same sex MARRIAGE?
Prop 8 included much more then just not allowing gays to marry...look it
up...That is one reason they fought against it, but there were many more reasons
why they fought it.
Though I do not agree with your churches view on this issue, I don't have a
problem with them having the view:"LDS leaders and members can help
lift, support and encourage fellow members wishing to follow the church's
doctrine, Otterson said" Where I do have a problem is where they
work to deny the rights of those who do not wich to follow thier "doctrine",
i.e. the work they did with prop 8 in CA. From religious perspective go ahead
and define and recognize marriage any way you see fit, but from a legal point of
view our govenment should never segragate rights to its citizens. They must all
be the same. A person's sexuality is not a choice, but thier
religion is. I will respect your religious views even though I don't agree with
them, shouldn't you do the same?
What I don't understand - is what happened to Freedom of Speech? Obviously the
gay activist's can say anything they want without the church demanding them
change specific words or phrases in their speeches.Give me a break. They
will whine and cry all day long until they get their way. I can
tell you something right now - it's not the LDS church - or any other church for
that matter - who is upholding the FACT that marriage is between a man and a
woman ... it's God. Remember Him? From day 1 it was Adam and Eve.
I agree with the churches stand no SSA etc. What bothers me greatly is that very
few commenting here even KNOW what the policy is. Many of you look like
morons, cuz you've never read the official churches stand on the issue.. I HIGHLY suggest reading Oaks Talk with Public affairs on the subject.
That settles it..What is the stance of the LDS Church? That SSA may
or May NOT be something that someone is born with. You may or may NOT be able to
overcome SSA in this life. However, a person with SSA is expected to
live by the same morals as a hetro. Chastity before marriage, and fidelity
after. Can you be gay and be in full fellowship? YES! Absolutely!
Read it for yourself.. and stop all of the nonsense that someone with SSA can
change they way they feel, just like stopping smoking. I consider
myself to be a well read LDS person.. I have many friends that struggle with
SSA.. I love each one of them and they know it. I dont judge them and only hope
that they can find some peace in their struggle.. How about a little
@Pete in Texas 1:00 p.m."It's not a sin to HAVE gay tendencies, only
to act on them."Therein lies the rub. The sex drive is strong and
constant. For the homosexual as well as the heterosexual male. To go through
life not being able to fulfill that drive can be pure hell."If the
gay community is going to get upset about someone telling them they can OVERCOME
those urges, then they're full of hate..."Perhaps the gay community
is upset because of statements like this. The urge cannot be overcome. It can
only be suppressed.
I have struggled with "bisexual thoughts" since I was a teen. I've NEVER acted
on them because I believe they are not normal. To me, they stem from being
exposed to certain behaviors from friends as a teen, looking at improper
material, watching impure movies, even reading certain "romance novels". It's a
choice whether I engage in these activities now. I find that when I cleave unto
the scriptures, good books, media & music and magnify my callings, that those
tendencies to act and even thoughts diminish greatly! I believe many gays
nowadays had bad things happen to them sexually at a young age or improper role
models or (like me) choose impure entertainment and friends. This may not be
the case with ALL. However, I think media/technology have caused this sinful
behavior to grow in extremes and is now causing it to be widely accepted. I'm
married to a wonderful man with 3 children and another on the way and love my
family with all my heart. I'm forever grateful for this gospel of Jesus Christ
which when lived truly brings happiness & understanding. The church is true.
firstamendment says: Locking people into homosexuality through marriage and
promoting homosexuality in other ways has been shown to turn straight children
gayShow me one. Straight people don't turn gay. Conversely, gay
people don't turn straight. Both are capable of acting sexually in both camps,
but both have a preference that is one or the other. Even bi-sexuals usually say
they prefer one over the other, rarely equally both. Promoting same sex
marriage will not turn anyone gay who didn't already have that emotion within
them. But it will allow a lot of wonderful people to live normal productive
lives. That's all we really want. Denying gay people the privilege of legal
marriage relegates us to second class status. What's good for you, must be good
for everyone. If being gay were a choice, then I could change your mind if you'd
give me the chance, which most of you wouldn't, because you don't want that.
Even men in prison who turn to other men for sexual gratification go back to
women once they leave jail. Isn't this just plain and clear?
If you believe that being gay is a choice, then what do you base that belief on?
Did you make a choice to be straight? On the other hand, if you believe that
being gay is not a choice, but is an integral part of that person, then just
like you, gay people want and need emotional and sexual fulfillment. God said it
best you know: it is not good for man to be alone. But then, the church says
that there's nothing wrong with having same sex emotions, but that you must
choose not to act on them, just as single heterosexual members mustn't act on
them until they marry. So then, hetero members can marry to express their need
for emotional/sexual love, but homosexual ones can't. Is that what you mean? You
want gay people to be good members of the church but to sublimate their natural
God given emotions, and to live lives of loneliness and emptiness. Could YOU do
that? How could you expect anyone else to? Should gay people judge straight
people by what goes on at Mardi Gras in New Orleans or elsewhere? Walk a mile in
If Heavenly Father wouldn't make someone gay, then what was He thinking when he
made hermaphrodites, or "intersex", people born with both male and female
chromosomes and sexual organs from both genders? The existence of such
people, whose sexuality is on a continuum, is impossible to explain or even to
acknowledge by a doctrine that claims a soul's gender was set in the
One of the wonderful things about true Christians is that they do their best to
promote understanding and act as Jesus would have them act, even while others
single them out for bullying and cast stones at them. The Church teaches
that we are all born with diverse gifts, weaknesses, desires, and passions.
Elder Packer certainly leads this statement. LDS teach that we are free agents,
in general, and should seek eternal procreative marriage. Telling
people they are predetermined, and not free to control their hearts, might not
be helpful. IF we don’t ask people to control the actions that would
destroy these eternal families (porn, adultery, abandoning spouses for
homosexual acts etc) we in effect destroy families. Religious gays
do control without known harm (see Evergreen), and we should love all equally,
change or not. Locking people into homosexuality through marriage
and promoting homosexuality in other ways has been shown to turn straight
children gay. LDS simply want a voice and vote on the world we
create for our children. ALL are sinners , this is what LDS have
always said. There is a way to overcome the natural man, for all of
us sinners, it’s through Christ.
There are so few people nowadays that even KNOW the difference between right and
wrong, let alone have the courage to stand for right. Thanks to the
Church for standing for right. CASE CLOSED!
What Elder Packer said, in effect, is that EVERYONE - whether single, divorced,
widowed, lesbian or homosexual are equal. Marriage in the Bible is defined as a
union between man and wife, i.e. Adam and Eve. Sexual relations between ANY two
people who are not married TO EACH OTHER is forbidden in the Ten Commandments
(Exodus 20:14)That means that widows, widowers, divorced people,
married people, single people and, yes, lesbians and homosexuals ... cannot,
according to the Ten Commandments be sexually active. There are
literally millions of widows, widowers and divorced people, along with single
people who are, correctly, being advised by the Church to adhere to and honor
the 10 Commandments on this issue. Why all this silly insistence that somehow
the 10 Commandments don't apply to homosexuals?
@jasonlivyWhile the causes of homosexuality as a sexual orientation
remain controversial, many sex researchers believe that it may be the product of
a complex interaction of sociocultural AND biological factors. While the
evidence still remains highly tentative, there is cause to believe that some
individuals exhibit a greater biopsychological predisposition to engage in
same-sex acts than others. Science offers the best hope for finding a way to end
the war on homosexuality. If science could somehow definitively prove
homosexuality occurs naturally in humans, it would force people to rethink their
religious prohibitions. I think it is premature for anybody to determine the
cause and because of that they should reserve judgement. Unfortunately, many
people of faith will never accept a scientific view that contradicts their
biblical understanding about homosexuality. They would be forced to find other
scientists – faith-based scientists – to refute the findings. Despite a growing understanding of the nature of homosexuality, myths
and false assumptions about same-sex behavior continue to abound. You and many
like you perpetuate these myths and continue to be intolerant, judgemental,
hateful, and unfair to your fellow man. That is what really is sickening!
I heard Elder Packer blast homosexual behavior, NOT those who practice it. I'm
just curious what sets the LDS apart from the other zillions of world relgions
that agree that homosexuality is wrong, or not a part of God's plan.Another concept that we as LDS embrace is free agency. You are free to not
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a wonderful vehicle by which
we learn how to love and served one another. No, unfortunately we are not
perfect, but rather imperfect people working towards that perfection we have
been challenged to obtain. The Gospel of Jesus Christ, the foundation of the
church, however is perfect and it was from this Gospel that Pres. Packard was
teaching, instructing and encouraging the members of the church and any other
who might be listening. Thank you Pres. Packer for not fearing the slings and
arrows of those not willing to accept the word of God, but seek to change it to
meet their own desires and choices.
If we, as members of the LDS faith, can realize that the greatest import of this
issue is to learn to evolve into a truly loving, charitable, people, we will
have assisted in Heavenly Father's work of "all things work together for good
for those who love God". The challenge that is homosexuality -
brothers and sisters who, through no fault of their own, have biological urges
to seek partnership with those of their own sex, disallowing procreation and the
family experience that we understand to be the pinnacle of earth's experience -
is a tragic condition of our telestial world. It is immensely sad for most
homosexuals who desire family relationships and procreative expression. The only Christ-like response to this tragedy is compassion, and seeking
to understand how we can ease their burdens, lift up their hands, and become
instruments for our Savior in ministering in His behalf.When we
individually seek this avenue, we collectively will begin to understand how
Heavenly Father can make all things work together for our good. Members who judge, fear, criticize, or are strident in their response instead
of thoughtful and sensitive will regret their words and need to repent.
I agree that the use of the term "hate speech" is inappropriate. Elder Packer
and the LDS official position is clear on moral behavior but completely free of
hate. Some rank and file members have a long way to go, however.But
I am confused why some LDS are upset with this petition. Gay advocacy groups
disagree with the LDS position and are using means to express that. This is NO
different than the LDS Church using means to express their position whether
through this statement or the activities related to Prop 8.Both
sides are simply expressing their position and beliefs. Debate and dialogue is
what makes this country great. The problem is that each side simply does not
like what the other is saying.The other point I want to make is in
regards to so many comments stating that the Church will never change due to
pressure from the world. I am not saying they will change regarding homosexual
behavior. But if anyone thinks that outside pressures were not the SOLE cause
for the change in plural marriage and the priesthood policy then they have no
real understanding of those two events in LDS history.
Some thoughts:1. Any member of the Church who states that homosexual
tendencies are not genetic or that one can change and no longer have those
tendencies are stating their personal opinion. Elder Packer stated his personal
opinion regarding origin and change. That was reflected in the subsequent
editing of those points of his talk. Members can personally believe that
homosexuality is not genetic or that a gay individual can change and become
heterosexual. But please do not attribute that in any way to the LDS Church.
Because neither point is supported by the Church's offical position. Even
Packer's belief in these points were soley his personal opinion. The Church
remains neutral on these two points.2. Heterosexual LDS members have
SIMILAR struggles in regard to moral expectations. For example, a heterosexual
member who has divorced or lost their spouse after years of appropriate sexual
activity is suddenly asked to remain celibit until remarrying. 3.
But reality is that the gay LDS member is asked to live celibit for life or
somehow practice heterosexuality within marriage.4. Perhaps the
greater sin is how so many LDS fall short of the love and kindness expected of
Lynn_Ann: Joseph Smith stated "They came into the world slaves, mentally and
physically. Change their situation with the whites, and they would be like them.
They have souls, and are subjects of salvation." History of the Church, Vol. 5,
page 217 ORIn 1863 Brigham Young stated "For their abuse of [the Black
African] race, the whites will be cursed, unless they repent." Journal of
Discourses, Vol.10, p.110Remember that the LDS church was in
Missouri when the state was very firmly a slave state. The fact that the full
priesthood was given to a Free-Born Black member was considered an act against
the state and the governer threated to wipe the church from the face of the
earth if they didn't recant."Even from the 1900s to the 1940s, when
there was a general segregation of Blacks from so-called white churches, there
was no Church policy of racial segregation of blacks and whites." D. Charles
Pyle, Encyclopedia of MormonismHowever, this is irrelevant.
Comparing homosexuals to a specific race is like comparing apples to oranges.The doctrine of the LDS Church is not dictated by man, it is given by
revelation from God.
@Paul from MDScience, in the broadest sense, includes all reasonable
claims to knowledge about ourselves and the world. If there were good reasons to
believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, or any other dubious religious claim,
these beliefs would necessarily form part of our rational description of the
universe. Faith is nothing more than the license that religious people give one
another to believe such propositions when reasons fail. The difference between
science and religion is the difference between a willingness to dispassionately
consider new evidence and new arguments, and a passionate UNWILLINGNESS to do
so. The difference between science and religion is the difference between a
genuine openness to fruits of human inquiry and modern knowledge, and a
premature closure to such inquiry as a matter of principle. The distinction
between science and religion is not a matter of excluding our ethical intuitions
and non-ordinary states of consciousness from our conversation about the world;
it is a matter of our being rigorous about what is reasonable to conclude on
their basis. We must find ways of meeting our emotional needs that do not
require the abject embrace of the preposterous. I choose reason over faith!
To all the spin doctors out there. I watched a very humble man of God deliver a
message to the members of the LDS Church. He wasn't hateful in his delivering of
his message. I believe that a current prophet is more valuable in a current
message than old scriptures. Scriptures are our guidelines and modern revelation
is for our day. Quit promoting your agenda to the LDS Church. The Church leaders
have listened to you comments. That doesn't change the way we believe. You are
creating the spin on hate and misunderstanding. That appears to be your goal.
The Church leaders have made their position very clear on numerous ocassions.
Your goal is to make the LDS Church appear to be a hateful church. Why not move
on a put your efforts into your own organizations. I have studied propaganda
techniques over the years used by many groups including government and political
groups. You heard the position of the LDS Church through modern day leaders.
Your agenda would be better used elswhere in the world.
Really, this isn't about treating the gay community fairly or including them in
your circle of friends, it's about accepting their behavior as normal. We will
never come to any dialogue or agreement until we all accept that homosexuality
is normal and ok. Until then we will all be labeled bigots and haters...Their reasoning...why would anyone choose to be gay? It simply doesn't
make sense to a normal person. Why would any man choose to be gay, right?Well I believe it is a fad. It's trendy. The same reason why people do
drugs, etc. Many go to San Francisco, Sante Fe, and other places around the
world to delve into their deplorable behavior. If they have no foundation of
truth, what's stopping them? If they have no moral base, why can't they involve
themselves in any kind of immorality they want? Anyone heard of the 'Natural
Man'?I do believe there are very few who legitimately struggle with
these feelings at no fault of their own. But I also believe that most absolutely
choose to be gay for whatever reason and it their behavior sickens me...
I agree with SyracuseCoug. I would like to see the petition presented to the
retirement community where I live. The old folks would tell them to put a sock
in it. And most of them aren't LDS.
Did they think that a petition would cause the Church to change its doctrine on
marriage? President Packer was merely teaching doctrine, not anything else with
no other motive.
We don't vote on the laws of God. We try to learn to live with them.
What a great idea! Why doesn't the LDS Church gather a million petitions and
deliver it to the LGBT headquarters asking them to give up the idea that
homosexuality is a pure and sinless way of life? Then let's get 10,000 LDS
people to go in front of their national headquarters and scream and yell at them
for not understanding us and agreeing with us. Maybe that would make them change
their minds about their lifestyles. Anything else would be Mormonphobic. The
LGBT petition, no matter how many signatures are on it, cannot change wrong from
right. God bless you President Packer. We love and support you.
Robert in St George and ProvoLow.... thank you for your posts. True,
the LDS GOSPEL and it's leaders teach to love everyone regardless of what they
are like and how they are living. Imperfect LDS individuals mess that up a LOT
of times. (As is reflected in these posts....) I feel your pain and understand
what you are both saying. I hope your faith in the church is stronger than your
natural inclination to condemn it because of imperfect members. I'm convinced
that there are those who struggle with sins, and those who's struggle is
learning how to love and accept those with "big sins". I've been shunned by
family for different actions in my life. That's unfortunate. I'm not proud to
say it, but I left the church for a while because of it. Only later did I
realize the CHURCH can be God's church here on the earth even with imperfect
"saints". You both have my love and respect. Keep the faith,
brothers. Hopefully through our trials, others will learn how to properly
support and help those of us who struggle. Press forward with faith. God will
answer our prayers.
Christian, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, the fight is with a great audience than
just the LDS. He edited his speech, that was a huge concession on
his part. What more do they want?
I is not reasonable to expect any church to compromise its position on a moral
issue. If a church does so, it loses its credibility and authority to save
Jolter, I would much rather follow a religion that claims to get its doctrine
from God than one that gets its doctrine from science and consensus.In my view, religion is a tool or vehicle for helping me grow closer to God.
A religion or set of doctrine that comes from Him will do a far better job at
that than one that comes from a committee of men/women.As for LDS
members not practicing everything preached by the brethren, well, you'll find
that in every church. We're all imperfect people.But I have to
disagree with you on a specific point. It is possible to act with compassion
and love toward someone while still condemning something they are doing. As
Robert from St. George has found (and I'm very sorry you've had to suffer their
bad behavior), not everyone in the church has learned how to do that.Love and compassion do NOT equate to permission and condoning.
Pagan, there is a big difference between HRC petitioning the LDS church to
change its position and the church encouraging its members to get involved in
the political process to shape the laws of the land.In the case of
law, there is a process in place to allow such change. The church teaches
principles and encourages members to get involved. Reading the comments at the
time Prop 8 was coming up for a vote it's clear that members don't always do
what the brethren would like. Many people were posting that as good upstanding
LDS members they would be voting against Prop 8.On the other hand,
there is no mechanism in place for groups outside the church to change our
doctrine. Actually, the only mechanism is from the top down. We believe that
our church doctrine and direction come from divine revelation through a living
prophet. Pressure from members to change doctrine goes nowhere, nor does
pressure from outside.By the way, the LDS church wasn't the only one
to encourage its members to vote for Prop 8. It's just the only one targeted
because of it.
Re: TMRGreat comment.Unfortunately some people hold onto their
religious beliefs so strongly that it makes them callous towards their fellow
To the commenters who hold that the Church doesn't respond to political
pressure, see Kimball: 1978, when he changed church policy, allowing black men
to hold the priesthood, even though Brigham Young had said that would never
happen, at least not until well after the Second Coming. Also from Young,
in Journal of Discourses:"If the White man who belongs to the chosen seed
mixes his blood with the seed of Cain (those with dark skin), the penalty, under
the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so."Times have
changed...thank God. And they will continue to.
In my last post the line "The context of pornography was clearly of impure
actions" was meant to be at the end. Pornography is about the choice to
take in evil images. One does not become a sinner because they walk down a
street and accidentally see a pornographic piece of literature strewn on the
ground. However picking it up and reading it, or lingering over it are
actions. The response to President Packer's talk has ignored all the
context of this. It has also ignored the context of stating that there are some
who will not marry in this life. To claim that even the majority of such cases
are due to same-gender attraction has no basis in fact, but some are, so to
claim that President Packer was saying that everyone would overcome same-gender
attraction to the level of being able to marry someone of the opposite gender is
not possible with a full reading of his talk, in any version.
President Packer is clealry much better at considering the import of his
words than are others. President Packer said that God, our loving
Heavely Father, would not give us tendencies that would force us to be
permanently held in sin. He did not explicitly say anything he was
refering to. He also, which is something some have unfortunantly done here, did
not try to make a clear analogy, a troubled attempt I have also at times done.
The context of pornography was clearly of inpure actions. I would
say that same-gender attraction is a unique trouble. On the other hand, to make
broad statements that assert that all people experience it in the same manner is
unwise. President Packer's earlier counsel to speak of
homosexual actions but not homosexual people is helpful for clearity. A close problem is that there is speaking around eachother at times.
Brother Otterson avoided this in his remarks, making it unambiguously clear of
what he spoke. Elder Holland achieved the same in his Ensign article back in
October 2007. President Packer only failed to achieve such because
so many people engage in taking his comments out of context.
I've been observing these discussions for years now. I have come to the
conclusion that this topic is as great a test for those of us members of the
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who DON'T live with same-gender
attraction as it is for those who DO. It's not the ONLY test we'll undergo, but
I believe it to be training wheels for what lies ahead. What is the
test? To see if we can learn to express our opinions without allowing anger,
hatred, sarcasm and criticism to creep in. How do we do that? Simple, but
perhaps less than easy: we must purify our hearts of all such emotions, and
replace them with love and compassion for all God's children who suffer from
seemingly uncontrollable tendencies. For perspective, if you are
honest in examining your own life, you will undoubtedly recognize that you also
have some weakness, that, if given into repeatedly and relentlessly, would
destroy you and hurt deeply those you love. Consider the irony and hypocrisy of
condemning another for the mote in his or her eye, when you've a beam in your
I ask this:If a leader of another church expressed feeling of
descrimination, hatred and bigotry towards members of the LDS church, would
those defending Packer's statements also defend those statements? Uh, no, they
would not.Bigotry is an amazing thing. Those who are pro-bigotry
towards others are always anti-bigotry when it is directed towards themselves.
"Do not preach love and compassion to the gay community, then turn around and
say you are practicing your faith by supporting your leader who has counseled
you to serve and minister to the LGBT community." Gracious GeorgeDoes anyone else see the irony here? Or is it sarcasm and I just missed it?I really like Robert, ProvoLow and InUtahbutnotofUtah's comments. So
many people in the church are quick to judge and slow to put in practice what
they preach. You'd never guess our greatest desire in life is to become more
like Jesus Christ based on the behavior of quite a few of us.Best of
luck to all those who are struggling with same gender attraction or anything
else. It is not easy to follow in His footsteps. There is another who tries very
hard to get us to go a different way.
I commend the church for not sweeping Elder Packer's comments under the rug; it
is a first step. THIS statement was great....in theory. As you can see from
previous comments, the hatred, ignorance and misconceptions about gay people
will forever foster an unwelcoming and hostile environment to gay members.
Sure, come to church, announce your gay and that you are not having sex and we
all will embrace and welcome you. We all know that is NOT how it is in real
life. IF you active, devoted LDS following this topic, are truly adhering to
what was said in the statement, you would CHANGE your mindset and your heart.
No matter how many times you go to the temple or do your hometeaching, the
prejudice you demonstrate to your children and community speaks the loudest.
You will be held accountable. Do the right thing and stand up against the rest
of the LDS members who do not have the courage to act Christian; I know I am.
Redeem our standing in the world.
@Robert in St. George. I agree with your post on this thread as well. I'm a
straight, unmarried woman, and have been ignored and left out of many things
related to church over the years. It is hard not to take it personally. But
truthfully, I think many people are simply afraid of what they don't know. They
don't know how to act around you, but really, they should just act normally and
treat you as they would treat anyone else. Some people just can't seem to grasp
that concept!Kudos to you for sticking with the church for its
doctrine rather than some of its culture. Also, there are plenty of us out here
(gay and straight) who are celibate, so you're not alone! :-)Please
hang in there. It will get better in time. It might take a while, but there are
becoming more of us who care and who are not afraid. I love the Lord with all my
heart. And I know He loves you.
Gracious George said, "HRC likely is doing what they are doing because they feel
like Salt Lake City is unresponsive to their concerns."Salt Lake
City (LDS Church) is just not giving the response you want; and so you deem they
Two opposing statements:- Your actions are dictated by biology; you
cannot change.- Through the power of Christ you can be made free.Don't blame President Packer for the suicides. His message is the one that
I still don't understand how the word "hate" ever became a part of Elder Packers
talk. I also don't understand how Bebyebe can state the church forces anyone to
do anything. It is simple, if you don't believe then follow your faith whatever
it may be. If you believe then follow the counsel of the brethen. I have never
been forced, my children have never been forced and I will never try to force
anyone I know. I have gay members in my extended family and I do not treat them
any different. Is there prejudice from others? Yes there is, we will never have
an all loving world who will except everyone or everything. I don't agree with
their practice but I exept them and love them for who they are. We are all
children of our Heavenly Father, he will always love us no matter what.
Brother Otterman's statement was right on!I can only hope the GLBT pays
To Pagan:The Church has been steadfast in its doctrine and what it
will do considering a MORAL issue. We do not consider same-sex marriage as a
civil right issue but a moral issue. We will stand against such where ever it
comes up especially where it is put to a vote by the PEOPLE not judges.This is the problem between the LGBT and the Church. You have been informed
of this on numerous occassions and again it was restated again. In other words,
President Packer didn't recant his statements at all. President Kimball
reinterated the same comments years ago in the Miracle for Forgiveness and
nothing President Packer stated during conference changed that.Again
the Church restated that having tendencies is not a sin but ACTING upon those
tendencies is. We are not in the same class as most animals. We have the
ability to think and CHOOSE for ourselves. We are here to act not to be acted
upon. Whether they can completely overcome the tendency or not is not the
problem here. What is expected is that they to be members in good standing must
not act upon the tendency.
@Robert from St. GeorgeI really appreciated Robert's comments. So often
members of the church fall short of the standards of love, tolerance and
kindness that have been preached consistently by Church leaders for decades.
We're all imperfect, and we all have things we need to work on. Some struggle
with homosexual tendencies; others struggle (obviously) with being
judgmental.Gay members of the Church do have a tougher time than
others, though. Maybe it's because they are often more open about their
struggles than most members are accustomed to being. For example, I struggle
with a persistent desire to view pornography. If I were to come "out of the
closet", so to speak, and tell everybody about this weakness, I bet my
experience would be a lot like Robert's: I would expect to feel judged by a lot
of people. So I keep it between the Bishop and me.Now, is that to
say people struggling with homosexual urges should just keep their mouths shut,
then? No... but I wish that everybody at church would pretend a bit less to be
infallible, acknowledge their own weaknesses, stop judging and start showing
There are so many GREAT comments all I can say is ditto to most of you! There
are those few that just don't get it and they never will.
The funny thing is, if for some reason the church changed their stance on this
issue, it would not be good enough. Some people just need to be the minority,
they need to be 'hated' by somebody to be happy. If it changed, they would then
mock the church for being weak and claim that it must not be true because the
church changed to fit the world. But God truly is leading The Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter Day Saints; it will not change because He does not change.
Same sex attraction is just like anger and other temptations and weaknesses that
people are born with. We all have commandments that are difficult for us
personally. But in order to receive all the blessings the Lord has prepared for
us, we must overcome certain things. I feel for those who must deal with this
and if they choose to embrace those feelings that is their choice, but it is
indeed against the commandments of the Lord.
The Trib reports that HRC spokesman Michael Cole wrote in an email,
“Science tells us that same-sex attraction is completely normal, and that
it can’t be changed."Any "science" that says that has become
too politicized to tell the truth. Same-sex attraction occurs in a minority of
the population, so whether or not it is "normal" is a value judgment, not an
empirical observation.The idea that it can't be changed is
completely false. Perhaps for some people it can't, but others can change, and
many have. That is indisputable. But for HRC, it is, to borrow a line from a
different debate, "an inconvenient truth."
This is nothing more than a continuation of the war in heaven here on earth--a
war not of bullets, but a war of ideologies.
They believe they can pressure the church into changing the doctrine, because
they have been able to pressure other churches into changing theirs. @ Pagan"Live and let live" is that what you called the terrorism
that occurred here in California when we, the voters, voted against what YOU
wanted? My elderly and widowed neighbor had her home vandalized several times by
those opposing Prop 8. Is THAT what you mean by "live and let live?" What about
the death threats my friends received against their children for their support
of Prop. 8? More "live and let live"? Your group's actions speak
soooooo much louder than your words! So how dare you preach to anyone "live and
let live"?! That is completely hypocritical. And if you don't like the way we
Californians vote (of which Mormons are a minority) simply don't move here.
The activists are responding to the terrible timing of that talk. Come on, I bet
even the PR people in the church office building groaned!! The week all the news
about the teen suicides breaks is the week that talk is given?! We do not
condone the violence against gays but our minds and hearts are not open. Or we
would feel a little embarrassed about that timing. Be honest, how many of us
thought, Really? This week? Can't we be a little sensitive rather than thinking
we are always right and speak for God?
TMR are you uncomfortable with an honest dialogue?
I think that the church is being hypocritical. Such an opinion will probably not
be printed in Happy Valley but the church needs to take a hard look at itself
and the practices of it's leadership.
To understand that homosexuality is unnatural, all you have to do is think about
this: Suppose we all decided to live a strictly homosexual lifestyle, the human
race would be COMPLETELY GONE in one generation, PERIOD. I realize it is very
difficult to deal with same-sex attraction, but it is unnatural. The natural
man is attracted to sin in every form. The purpose of our life is to yield to
the enticings of the Holy Spirit and put off the natural man in every way and
become a Saint. We are not alone. The Savior is there to help us become like
Him and to overcome all sin.
Their struggle is our struggle. They can enjoy full fellowship in the Church.
Always great words, but in reality it just doesn't happen in the real world. I
wished my life would be of concern. My Ward ignores me. My home teachers
refuse to have anything to do with me. The Church really struggles in its
efforts to help gay members feel like there is love and concern. I am not
saying "change the doctrine and rules and commandments". Just treat gay members
as any other brother and sister. Its not a sickness. Its a natural feeling we
have inside. I can't help that I like guys. I do believe in the Church. I
know its true. But it really is hard wanting to work towards living in an
eternal world with gay haters and bashers. The Church is suppose to reflect
Gods love. Wow, I hope not the way it is now. I do hope all of this protest
will at least help the Church see their is much need to reflect and grow and not
just remind us about how marriage is suppose to be. Its about more than that.
One of the reasons the charter school my children attended was so highly
acclaimed was because not only did they set a high standard, they also helped
the children attain that standard.God has set a high standard for
those who choose to follow Him. He has also provided a way to reach that
standard through the Atonement. Accepting the atonement in our lives has always
been a matter of choice, of agency. You can admit to yourself that
you are choosing not to apply the atonement in your life in order to rise above
your earthly afflictions, or you can be angry at those who choose to proclaim
the reality of God's laws. Either way, His laws remain unchanged.
"The church understands others will disagree, but hopes disagreement will
include an understanding of its position "and not on distortion or selective
interpretation," Otterson said."There lies the problem. The
distortions and selective interpretations perpetuated by the pro Prop 8
campaign. How one fights is as important as the fight itself. The ends do not
justify the means. The campaign was ugly and damage was done. I'm not
sure Church leaders are willing/able to understand that.
As an active LDS member, I find most of the comment posts on this story
embarassing and out of sync with the more loving, tolerant message by the Church
spokesman. Folks, before you write a post and represent yourselves as a member
of the church, please think carefully about how your post will be received by
someone not of our faith. Yes, it does matter for those of us who mingle every
day with people of different faiths and value systems. If you are unclear about
how your post will be received, then remain silent, please.
Mount Olympus is right, go the United Universalists.
This is what Pres. Packer should have said. It's obvious that people
will use what he did say to go against what this statement says.It's
also obvious that those that do that believe in a different God then the one
this statement is talking about.
Nice try!On one hard we have the LDS Church and its members
preaching in this article and in life--love, kindness, tolerance, and fair
treatment for all people no matter what their lifestyle and on the other hand we
have them using words like immoral, abomination, sin, evil, impure, and
unnatural....just to name a few, and actively working in the political arena to
pass laws based on their belief that gays should be denied equal rights as
citizens. This has the appearance of being logically true on one hand, but which
in fact seems absurd that it cannot possibly be true on the other. Paradoxes are
effective tools for demonstrating that some commonly assumed idea or action does
not necessarily deserve our unquestioning belief and confidence.Certain religious sects even within Christianity no longer carry the
traditional religious view of homosexuality. They believe that Biblical
references have been taken out of context and thereby misunderstood. If any
religion survives in the future it will have to progress, learn, and grow with
society instead of living in the past where knowledge was limited and often
wrong.No single religion can speak for all the other religions or
To Gracious George: As and LDS member, I can tell you that you are right when
you say others do not see this issue in the same light that the members do for
several reasons, but mainly because our beliefs center largely around eternal
families. I can also say that there is not one member of this church that is
perfect, so even when our leaders instruct and give council not everyone is
going to listen.But we also believe in free agency,which means people can choose
to obey or believe what they want to. I do not support gay marriage in the sense
that the practice of same sex marriage conflicts with my personal beliefs,
however, I hold no personal gruge for those that practice it. Everyone has their
reasons to support or reject this practice,but what is important to remember is
that everyone has the right to choose where they stand,whether they agree or
To Bebyebe and her/his comment that I quote:"Mormons once again think that
they are entitled to dictate other people's behavior. Especially people who are
not members"People can live their lives they way the choose to.
Elder Packer was giving advice... The activist in the other hand are doing
exactly what you said: trying to silence people and their opinions, and dictate
how they should think about a particular issue. YOU CANNOT FORCE PEOPLE TO
ACCEPT THE IDEA THAT HOMOSEXUAL BEHAVIOR IS NOT WRONG (as I probably cannot
change the way that others view homosexual behavior) The advice was mostly
(I believe) given to people willing to listen Elder Packer's talk as a counsel,
not forcing doctrine on unbelievers...
Thanks to the Church for having the courage to stand up for righteousness. In
doing so, they always have a loving stance.Same Sex Attraction is no
different from drug addiction, alcoholism or any other self-destructive
behavior. It can be overcome through the love and help of the Savior.
So when is the petition being sent to the NAACP, The Catholic Church, and the
leaders in the Latino community in California? They voted very strongly against
homosexual marriage also."Mormons once again think that they are
entitled to dictate other people's behavior. Especially people who are not
members."Uhhhhh.....since when has the LDS church forced anybody to
do anything? Your post is so misguided that I don't even know where to start
Bebyebe, not once in my 40 years of life has my church forced me to do anything.
As a member I can make my own choices, I just have to live with the
@ Utah Buisnessman. Great comment. It is through the power of the Atonement that
this can be done. We need to follow the examples of our church leaders and show
love like President Packer did in his message. It is not easy. It is not
impossible. We all must strive to get there individually. There should be no
judging here. Love is the key. It is through love that the power of the
Atonement will touch us. Return good gifts when receiving evil gifts. This is
what our leaders did. It's up to all Latter Day Saints to do the same. I am not
great at this at all. I don't bash the Prophets but I don't always listen and
follow either. I'm a terrible example but I thank Heavenly Father for those
great teachers in my life who have inspired me and great parents who taught me
with love to do good and right.
This was the best response the church has made thus far concerning
homosexuality. The statement reflected the compassion that should be
characteristic of faithful followers of Jesus Christ and adherence to scriptural
truth. As for the petition, it was heard, published and caused the
Church to respond. Will petitioning and disaggreement ever change God's
doctrine? How can it? I know that I, a sinner, am still loved but I know that
petitioning God to change his mind about my sins-is pretty useless. Yes, I believe that the Savior, Jesus Christ would be more inclusive than
exclusive and yet could not condone that which will deny a soul from being
I believe Homosexuality - Physical Acts - are unnatural. As a LDS member I also
have the right to believe one of my leaders and agree that Homosexuality or SSA
(whatever you want to call it) is immoral when acted upon...but there are many
other things I find are immoral also.150,000 petitions doesn't
impress me or cause me to change my mind. Others don't rule me or the LDS
church. I answer to God, My wife, My family and Myself.The LDS
church is not a governing body and can say what it wishes from its pulpits
(legally). If you don't like it then feel free to disagree and not be a member
thereof. Please feel free to start a LGBT church and do as you legally wish.Do not blame the LDS and President Packer for recent suicides. I have
had a suicide in my wife's family and it is a personal decision based upon
multiple complexities.I will remain friends with my SAA friends and
treat them with respect just as they treat me with respect.I have
not petitioned them to change and they have not petitioned me to change my
Mormons once again think that they are entitled to dictate other people's
behavior. Especially people who are not members.
According to Jesus Christ, it is a very serious sin to have sinful lusts &
desires, or has He sent down word that He has changed His mind on that? He said
we will be judged on our thoughts, not just our actions, RIGHT? Remember what He
said about a man lusting after another man's wife? Enough said for me. I KNOW
what He teaches is TRUE & He does not care about P R .
How is that following the 'live and let live' idea for the LDS church? That's where the church's support of civic ordinances prohibiting
discrimination against gays in the workplace and in housing comes in. However,
when it comes to marriage, we feel it is our duty to God and our fellow man to
speak up while it is still up to civic debate. If same-sex marriage eventually
becomes the law of the land, you will see the LDS church handle it in much the
same way the LDS living in Nevada handle the gambling issue. We're not out there
calling for gambling to be outlawed, but we are still teaching that LDS members
should not be gambling (to varying degrees of success). But, while the issue is
still open to debate, we feel that it is far too important just to say nothing.
If it becomes law, you won't find us throwing bricks through your window or
bombing the court house. We won't even be picketing outside of Gay and Lesbian
Headquarters (wherever that is). We can certainly be tolerant.
Voice of Reason, Perhaps you will share with us the scientific evidence that
Gays can change. It seems to me that that is the critical issue. If they can't
they can't be condemned. If they can then there could be a moral issue to
To get the full story and the statement from the HRC, head over to the viper's
den, er sorry, the Tribune.Come on D news, you could have given a
little information since it was available.
Truth will prevail. The Lords laws cannot be changed by a vote, by a petition,
or by a temper tantrum. He loves all of His children and invites all to come
I must say that I loved this article.
Independent from Henderson,Thank you for your very thoughtful post.
I can do you one better: I also believe that the Atonement can change one's
sexual leanings, based on personal experience and scientific research. Gay
activists can no longer honestly claim that "gays can't change" - a steadily
growing body of evidence is showing that they can, and regularly do change to
normal heterosexual functioning.A separate note: these gay-centric
stories used to be absolutely flooded by gay posts from just a few people. But
now that the DesNews has instituted a new "2 post maximum" for each individual,
a few gay activists can no longer bully the majority with sheer volume by
flooding these stories with pro-gay posts. It is very refreshing to now see
mostly the majority's viewpoint reflected, while still allowing for the tiny
minority to have their say...they just can't bully the rest of us anymore on
here with obsessive posting.
'Mount Olympus | 3:24 p.m. Oct. 12, 2010 If you don't agree with the LDS
doctrine, go to another church where you agree with what they teach.' Ah. The 'live and let live' philosiphy. Gosh, that would
be nice. Prop 8, CA, 2008 Amendment 3, Ut, 2004 Civil
Unions, Hi, 1994 So, we have three examples, in three different
states of the LDS church taking action against gay marriage. How is
that following the 'live and let live' idea for the LDS church?
Most scientists, like many Church leaders, have stated that homosexual
tendencies may never change for some individuals. The official Church statements
on the matter are actually quite different from many of the posts here on this
board.Mormons believe that behavior may be controlled, and that
temptations may be overcome. We do not believe, nor did Elder Packer say, that
the feelings that lead to homosexual behavior can always disappear. The Church
does not ask its members that struggle with homosexual desires to stop having
homosexual desires. The Church does ask these members to take responsibility for
their behavior, and patiently endure their special difficulties. Marriage may
not be an opportunity gay members have in this life, but every blessing will be
available to them at some point if they stay faithful to their covenants.
It clearly says in the Bible, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as
with womankind: it is abomination." Leviticus 18:22If you are
Christian, what is there to discuss? If you believe in the Bible, then that is
what it says and it is not up for anybody, or any group of people, to argue
against or seek to change.
Many members of the church only reject President Packer because they believe
more in party politics than they do in Heavenly Father. I see it all the time in
Utah on both sides frequentely. Did they actually listen to Cladio Costas talk
in which he talked about Pres.Ezra Taft Benson qoutes on the importance of our
Prophets and where they get their inspiration from? And they still stone
President Packer. I do not agree with the person above who thinks the people who
joined I Support President Packer are hypocrites and showing no love to the gay
community. This remark just leads to more hate and is doing the same thing many
in these pride organizations are doing. I'm no saint. I was born and raised in
the church and did not go on a mission. I love rock and motercycles and dont
break for tabernacle choir. I try to be a good person but I really hate it when
people attack good men of God. I also dont like to see Muslims attacked or any
religious groups attacked when standing up for truth and doing good. ROCK ON
LDS members are given counsel twice a year. Any of the world is invited to
listen. If I were to tune into a Catholic or Baptist broadcast - and I don't
agree with their message - I just turn it off. The Gay community wants EVERYONE
to agree with their actions, thus justifying their behavior. It won't and can't
be that way. The LDS are not the only religion that will not accept
homosexuality - the Baptists, Catholics and others don't and if you happen to be
unfortunate enough to live in the mid-East, and are homosexual - you will be
stoned! So please, Gay demonstrators find a new whipping boy - you've worn this
If you don't agree with the LDS doctrine, go to another church where you agree
with what they teach.Protesting does nothing but show ignorance. If
you don't agree, then move on and do something else. No one is forcing you to
stay LDS. If you have a huge difference in oppinion with the doctrine of any
church, that church is probably not for you.
At the time my son was born, my gay boss told me outright that I should not
"push" gender on him at all and that I should give him the opportunity to chose
for himself his gender identity and sexuality. This was his "doctrine" so to
speak, and it is completely offensive to me. Did I freak out and tell him he was
wrong? Did I protest and petition him to change his mind? No. I just smiled and
changed the subject. What good would it have done? I believe Boyd K.
Packer to be an Apostle of Jesus Christ with the ability and authority to
communicate God's will to all people. You don't. Fair enough. You believe, based
on scientific research, that being gay cannot and should not be changed in an
individual through therapy. I believe, based on personal experience, that the
Atonement of Jesus Christ can change a person's very character, and that God's
standards, although very high sometimes by the world's standards, can be met,
and that incredible peace and joy come as a result. You think I'm an idiot. I
guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
Did the Human Rights Campaign release a copy of the statement they delivered
along with the signatures? Is it available online? Did they seek a meeting with
LDS officials? Did they receive a response back from the LDS church about a
meeting? Did an actual meeting take place or is one scheduled?It is
difficult to comment on this news story as key information seems to be missing.
All that is available is the LDS church's statement restating their
position. But without the statement from the HRC it is almost impossible to know
what their objections are specifically or how they hope to resolve differences
with the LDS church. I guess that they would propose ideas for compromise or
areas of agreement instead of just filing a complaint, but I could be wrong.I would like the D News to try to publish the actual statement to which
the signatures were attached, if one exists.
As an active LDS who does not have any problem with what Elder Packer said, may
I also say that I know that this is a very difficult issue, and I truly feel
empathy for those who feel same-gender attraction. I HOPE that I do and will
treat them not only with love but also with the respect that they deserve. I will state as my OPINION that the church's stand on this will eventually be
clearly shown as valid and will be accepted by everyone who is willing to accept
obvious truths (some never do, of course.)In 1832, Joseph Smith received a
revelation referred to by LDS as the "word of wisdom." It contains warnings
against human use of tobacco and alcohol. As late as the 1950's, by
brother-in-law was extremely critical of the South Dakota legislature when they
were considering a requirement that warnings be put on cigarette packages. Now, virtually everyone is promoting the "stop smoking" effort--178 years
late! Also, alcohol consumption results in huge amounts of misery and
death--but alas, some pleasure! Unfortunately, as long as the pleasure is there,
many will ignore the negatives.
So if someone talks about preparedness in Conference and we are not prepared,
then this is hate speech? It is a weak church or a weak parent who backs down
to the desires and whims of a person. If I had a child who was fourteen years
old and really wanted to go live in an apartment, it wouldn't happen, that child
may think they know what is best for themselves, but they don't have the wisdom
and understanding that I do. And we do not have the wisdom and understanding
that our Heavenly Father has and so even though He may tell us to do this or not
do that, like look at a stick, we follow and listen and trust and know that He
Is. And also know that we aren't.
I don't have a problem with the content of Pres. Packer's talk now that it has
been edited and clarified. However, I do have a problem with so many Mormons
that are now using the talk as an excuse to say some very unkind and judgmental
things on this message board.Of course, God's law is not going to
change. But can't we follow the lead of the official Church position and be a
little kinder and understanding toward our fellow men and women? Leave the
judging to God. And you can show your support to Pres. Packer in ways other than
blasting those in our midst who are dealing with the issues that he spoke about.
Give it a rest people.
Gays love to use inflammatory key words such as hate so as to gain attention for
what otherwise is known as freedom of religion and free speech.If it
disagrees with their immoral behavior then they call it hate because they know
that the press love that word in our PC society.re: gracious
georgeUh, the LDS doctrines are published for the world to see and
we already know and have known what is common ground between us and other
entities within society.I suspect what you intend by proposing a
meeting/dialogue is for the church to just acquiesce to your point of view.
Petitions are a waste of time. It is not popular vote that leads this Church it
is the word of God and he has spoken. If you don't like it go bother a church
that relies on the opinions of the people. There are plenty of them.
One person said the church was hypocritical with regards to President Packer's
talk. Is it any more hypocritical than liberals who, if they disagree with you
are free thinkers, but if you disagree with them you are a bigot and a hate
monger. He is not doing what Fred Phelps of the Westboro Baptist Church is
doing. President Packer stated his position, and now there are groups that are
up in arms. Yet they can freely criticize the LDS church, and they are being
free thinkers and exercising their freedom of speech. Who is being the
hypocrite???Before I say anymore while I vehemently disagree with
homosexuality and see it as a behavioral and lifestyle choice. I had an incident
when I worked in a juvenile detention center where I stood up for a kid who came
out; especially when the other kids wanted to assault him.
Gee, O.K. If you sign a petition we will change our doctrine to support immoral
behavior.Not.Any other sinner just bring a petition
about how you would like to continue in your ungodly ways and we will
accommodate you too.What the heck?Hate the sin love the
sinner is not going to change people. If you find an organization that does
then you will know it is no longer a religion but rather an institution of man.
I also heard plenty about how pornography, drugs, alcohol, and extramarital sex
are all immoral. If there were significant political actions attempting further
legitimize these other immoral behaviors, I'm sure the church would encourage
member to oppose them, too.I don't understand why, then, so many
people feel the need to try to suppress the speech and change the opinions of
this church and its members, and why there are no petitions condemning our
stance against our so many other peculiar beliefs and behaviors.
I must disagree with "newsy"'s statement: "Homosexuality is still impure,
unnatural and the weakness CAN be overcome. Come to that conclusion and we have
dialogue."That's not dialogue. Dialogue means communicating in a
civil and open manner with people with whom we disagree. It means showing
respect and understanding of other viewpoints, not requiring others to come to
our conclusions before we talk.
I don't understand at what time it became hate to say that you believe that
marriage is between a man and a woman. When it comes come down to a vote, I will
vote marriage between man and woman every time. Now I don't mind if they get
benefits as a couple and all that but no one will ever change my beliefs as to
what marriage is. I don't hate gays and lesbians, but I really don't care as to
how they go about trying to bully others into believing what they want us to
It is about boundaries. As a heterosexual there are boundaries. Just because
there is an attraction toward something does not make it right. There are many
things in life many of us would like to do but we need to adhere to the
boundaries. It is silly for the public or any large number of people to tell
what a church to do. There are different beliefs.
WOW, I guess freedom of speech is only for the select few now days. I can't believe that people from the LGBT do not want to acknowledge the First
Amendment of the Constitution: Which is Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise
thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of
the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress
of grievances.It seems that these people from the LGBT want to
exercise their freedom, but when someone that speaks out against their beliefs
they want it to be withdrawn. I know they want it to be withdrawn
because of the suicides that they say will happen because of bullying. Well
Suicide is a choice; life is hard for most teens.Hey what these
people from the LGBT are doing they have a right to do, but I hope that they
realize that others have the same rights as they do. Even a religion.
"Activists say such statements are factually inaccurate "Are these
activists claiming expertise on the powers of the atonement?And if
not, then on what basis do they make such a claim.I believe Elder
Packer makes the statement on the basis of being called as an Apostle of Jesus
Christ.And if you don't believe that, then why bother with us at
all? If in your view we're clearly unhinged, why not just leave us alone to our
Why is that your church will not talk to the people that are asking only for an
opportunity to come together, reach understanding, and create common ground on
moral issues important to both sides? This is a golden opportunity
for your faith to create dialogue and unity. I do not think this is
any different from when your faith talks with governments to have missionary
work opened in other countries or when they assist other faiths in humanitarian
efforts throughout the globe. They do not agree on some things, but they can
find common ground. What makes HRC and other groups any different?
They just want common ground. It is that simple. Not everyone
sees this the way the LDS Church does. HRC likely is doing what they are doing
because they feel like Salt Lake City is unresponsive to their concerns. I
think if they were more open-minded and willing to step out of their comfort
zone, they would find greater acceptance of their beliefs from those groups.
I feel for these people. What a struggle they have. But their efforts to change
the LDS doctrine seem to be persistently misguided. I wonder if they'd have any
better luck sending signiatures to leaders of a different religion. I'd surely
like to hear that other religions get equal time from them.
The behavior of these gay activists is so bizzarre. If you dont agree with what
someone says just ignore them. Going to all the trouble of getting your gay
friends to sign a petition telling the church they dont agree with them seems to
be a waste of time to me. The LDS church isnt going to change their mind nor
are the gays, they should both just move on. Also, the assertion that the LDS
church's stance on homosexuality will promote bullying of homosexuals is absurd,
people are bullied for all sorts of things everyday in school and the workplace
why should the gays be immune because of their chosen lifestyle?
Do not change the letter. Packer wrote it how he believes is correct. It wasn't
written as a hateful letter but when you are looking to be offended, it can be
taken as such. Everyone needs to relax. Packer loves everyone. He simply doesn't
share the same beliefs as everyone.
I'm curious as to what the activists expect to achieve. A petition with 150,000
signatures is no different than a vote. If you payed any attention to Pres.
Packer's talk I believe he made it quit clear that a vote does not change the
fundimental principles of the gospel or Gods laws. Where do you suppose the
petition is going to ended upanyway? It will not change the mind of any general
authority or I expect anyone else for that matter. Thank you Pres.Packer for
saying something so clear and to the point about a subject that most are afraid
to speak to directly for fear of upsetting the apple kart.
How times have changed over the years however God's laws does not change. Elder
Packer I believe is a Apostle of Jesus Christ therefore have to be forthright in
what he says. No beating around the bush. If he was not clear, people would be
asking what the heck his message was about. It was clear and that is why it has
raised such hype.
Not a chance. They ought to take their angst somewhere else.
Amen again to Elder Packers talk in General Conference!The LGBT
lifestyle is like that of many people who live together and have sexual
relations before marriage, or adulterous couples or those who have any
extra-marital sexual relations. IT IS WRONG and immoral. But I doubt the
people that do this know what the term means.
If the circumstances were reversed----if all of the nearly 14
million members of the LDS Church signed a petition and delivered it to the The
Human Rights Campaign headquarters, asking them to change their position on
homosexuality, and to instead agree with the position of the Church, do you
think they would??
This is another attempt to block what we can say and believe. The gay rights
group is fighting very hard to limit Freedom of Speech and Religion. If you do
not like what you hear, it is labeled "hate speech". They are trying to force
everyone to believe their views.
These sort of petitions, especially to a church leader, are very interesting and
show a lack of understanding about what a church is. You don't change the
doctrines of God through grass roots. 150,000 signatures stating that something
if factually inaccurate does not make something factually inaccurate.
Additionally, church leaders have a responsibility to teach truth, regardless of
consequences. It is horrific to think that anyone would commit suicide after
hearing remarks denouncing a particular type of behavior, but even that
possibility does not relieve the speaker of the obligation to teach the
principles of God's law. How people react to the truth is up to them. Homosexual behavior, like any deviant behavior, can be overcome.
Whether someone can overcome "being gay" is irrelevant. It is homosexual
behavior that is condemned. I especially enjoyed his point about
how God's laws cannot be changed by man's vote. We cannot legitimately vote to
approve of homosexual behavior any more than we can vote to outlaw gravity. I appreciate Pres. Packer and his wisdom and spirit. We support you.
From yesterday, I never condemned what the LDS youth did in any way. I may
disagree with their faith, but I congratulate them on trying to do something to
contribute to the dialogue. Anyone who insinuates otherwise is
wrong and is misrepresenting my posts. In my opinion having studied
Mr. Packer's talk, would he not want the youth and adult members of your church
to reach out to gays and lesbians? Would he not want his followers
to serve those people, the ones who struggle? If the church
believes so much in love and compassion, why is it that I read so much criticism
and unkindness towards them? Why is it that your church members
want to focus on loving everyone (Packer) except the ones who are hurting the
most? With all due respect, that seems pretty hypocritical to me.
To be hypocritical means to say one thing and then do another. Do
not preach love and compassion to the gay community, then turn around and say
you are practicing your faith by supporting your leader who has counseled you to
serve and minister to the LGBT community. Not everyone sees this
issue the way LDS members do.
It is sad that these people continue to try and tell God what they think is
right. LGBT is a worldly practice that goes against all teachings from God. They
should have protection the same as all other citizens but thier practices should
never be condoned by the church or be accepted as normal by society. It is
un-natural perversion and those who practice should be offered love and help to
overcome. Never should these practices be accepted as normal. To do so would be
supporting the degredation of society and contribute to the moral decline of our
country.Love the sinner, hate the sins but never persecute those who need
our help to repent and change their lives. Before you blast my comments
remember that I also have freedom of speech and the right to voice my opinions.
I do not advocate violence or persecution of any kind. I love those in my family
who suffer from these conditions but I will never advocate acceptance of the
How will they ever understand - LDS believe in a set of moral principles and
that homosexuality is a violation of those principles. Legitimizing that
perceived immorality through law is something the LDS oppose.LDS
leaders' comments on the topic are so far from hate speech it is ridiculous. The
gay community's extreme reaction to such speech undermines their credibility at
every turn. We need to work together to help kids NOT be bullied and NOT commit
suicide, but all the activists seem to care about is screaming "hate speech!" at
those who have no hate in their heart.
President Packer......All I have to say is AMEN, AND AMEN!Gay lifestyles aren't moral and can be overcome just as alchoholics and drug
addicts can overcome those addictions. Overcoming something like that means not
getting involved anymore in it. Ask any alchoholic, they'll tell you that they
still deal with the temptations, but to OVERCOME it is to find strength
necessary to not give in to those temptations. A gay individual would say, "Try
putting yourself in my shoes and NOT feeling attracted to females for a day."
That isn't how you overcome something. Overcoming it is not getting involved in
it. It's not a sin to HAVE gay tendencies, only to act on them. You're not an
alcoholic if you HAVE urges to consume alcohol, only if you actually do it.If the gay community is going to get upset about someone telling them
they can OVERCOME those urges, then they're full of hate and won't educate
themselves simply because they're too lazy to put their efforts into overcoming
tendencies. God's laws aren't going to be changed by a petition signed by
150,000 people. I guarantee it.
Send a million letters. Homosexuality is still impure, unnatural and the
weakness CAN be overcome. Come to that conclusion and we have dialogue.