Standardized testing have many loopholes. A school can shuffle students with
different classifications to have the test not averaged with the others or have
its difficulty watered down. This improves a schools report card. The state
annually changes the score determining passing and failing. They also change the
difficulty of the tests. Has Jeb Bush indicated a passing score needed for his
state tests? Many states require 40 to 50 percent correct answers to be
considered passing. With four choices per question, a student should receive a
minimum twenty five. Add a steady diet of test taking stategies which extends to
after school tutoring,--it becomes difficult knowing how much learning is taking
place.With a high percentage of people living off of government
assistance, what does it say of our educational system?Like the
mismangement of American tax money and foreign trade deals, our legislatures and
political law makers scored low with education. Perhaps education should be
turned over to local communities. Perhaps schools should test less and teach
You can not teach People to be teachers, They are Born to be Teachers.As a
kid 60 years ago, I was bord with school, Being taught stuff that I was not
interested in.Stuff I did not ever expect to use in life, School really is
a waste of time, Today seems to be Money as well.Remember one size does
not fit all!
Re: "HereWeGoAgain"Thanks for the information - sorry to say some
of out sate leaders will not listen.
Fair Warning! Jeb Bush is an expert in fabricating lies and fleecing the
public. Schools in Floriduh rank 38 they are not in the top. I have lived in
Floriduh since 1965. Bush is the worst governor in FL ever! He vetoed class
size amendment against the will of the voters. Bush defied a FL Supreme Court
ruling that vouchers were unconstitutional. Bush only has profit on his agenda.
His brother Neil owns IGNITE Learning, see Rotten Apples Award for the details.
McGraw family of McGraw-Hill textbooks and tests are old family friends. Don't
forget tests and results can be manipulated to favor any opinion. Why are
kindergarden children expected to take tests? The St. Pete Times had a link to
this article you may want to read.
Some teachers this year are dealing with 40+ students.(Every teacher
should give the individual attention that each student requires?)But
do not worry we do not need any more money for education in this state - we will
just pay a "bush" to come here and give us a pep talk.I wonder
how much money per student in Florida they pay for education?
'Cameron | 3:59 p.m. Aug. 25, 2010 Pagan, the article we're commenting on
is about Jeb Bush.' Ah, so I should know what an anonomys
poster is thinking? Let's pretend I do not have that ability. The
reason we use the written word is for that reason. As the source in
question, 1Observer, has not clarified, your assumption is just that. An assumption. Or are you trying to say there is only one
Bush? But even you have to admit, $53 billion added to the US's
education system would help, wouldn't it? I think so.
Pagan, the article we're commenting on is about Jeb Bush.
'Cameron | 3:13 p.m. Aug. 25, 2010 Uh Pagan, I'm pretty sure Observer was
talking about the education results JEB Bush got in Florida while he was
governor.' Well, then he should have said as much.
Making vauge Bush refferences could mean Bush Sr. for all we know. There is more
I think some of JEB Bush's ideas are worth looking into but I have lived long
enough in Utah to know the legislature will not be high on the bonus concept.
Of course, when Bush was Flordia's governor the economy was quite different.
I am curious though as to why Florida, according to Bush, is doing
so well but also applied and won Race to the Top (RTTT) money from the feds.
Uh Pagan, I'm pretty sure Observer was talking about the education results JEB
Bush got in Florida while he was governor.
1Observer | 11:20 a.m. Aug. 25, 2010 'Make fun of Bush all you want but
he got results.' 'Audit: US can't account for $8.7B in Iraqi
funds' - By Tarek El-tablawy - AP - Published by DSNews - 07/27/10Line:'The funds are separate from the $53 billion allocated by Congress
for rebuilding Iraq.' 'Spending more money isn't an idea of
merit. It doesn't necessarily yield improved results.' - 1Observer | 11:20
a.m. *"According to a Congressional Budget Office (CBO) report
published in October 2007, the U.S. wars in Iraq and Afghanistan could cost
taxpayers a total of $2.4 trillion dollars by 2017 when counting the huge
interest costs because combat is being financed with borrowed money. The CBO
estimated that of the $2.4 trillion long-term price tag for the war, about $1.9
trillion of that would be spent on Iraq, or $6,300 per U.S. citizen."
The 3rd grade reading proficiency advancement requirement sounds good in theory,
but could result in huge class sizes in grades 1-3. When she introduced her
bill last session, Senator Morgan said 20% of third graders don't read at grade
level. If even half of those students are held back it will mean even larger
class sizes than the already overcrowded ones we have now. This is especially
concerning because it is those early grades when class size matters the most to
Make fun of Bush all you want but he got results. So far I haven't seen the
critics offer up any ideas for student improvement that have real merit. (just
a lot of complaining about parents, the legislature, etc.) Spending more money
isn't an idea of merit. It doesn't necessarily yield improved results. During
the 1990's, Utah saw record increases in ed funding while test scores remained
flat. I have to laugh at those who say we shouldn't teach to the
test. What does that mean? Students are tested every week in one form or
another. If they aren't being taught the information on the test, how do they
pass it? As for the education establishment, they know about the
flat test score results in Utah but I have yet to see any real creative ideas
come from the UEA, USOE, USSBA, PTA, etc. It seems like everyone runs from
student achievement because it equates to accountability. It is easy to pass
off poor results because of our dubious distinction of the lowest per pupil
spending. But does that mean we just quit? Or do we dare to try something new?
Jeb Bush can speak? Who knew?
One other thing: If I don't teach to the test, what am I teaching? Information
on Outer Mongolia? I don't get to see the tests until the end of the year and
they are kept under lock and key. I teach the core concepts which is teaching to
the test. Whoever took a class in high school and college and didn't study the
information taught in that class? The teacher lets the students know what is
required and all of the questions come from information taught in that class.
Don't kids practice to pass their ACTs or SATs? It would be different if I could
see the questions before the test, but I can't, so therefore I can't help the
children cheat by using example questions to help them do so. So please explain
to me how I can teach to the test? By the way, I wouldn't do so even if I was
able to see the tests ahead of time. It's called integrity.
Yeah, let's grade the schools. And anyone who has the money to get their kids to
a different school if they don't like it, can. That leaves the kids whose
parents can't afford to take their own kids elsewhere, or who are at work when
the kids need to go and come back, in the failing school. Can you
say discrimination?Politicians think they know more than the general
public, and especially more than the educators in the trenches. Every politico
who wants to do something about education should be required to spend a week in
a "failing" school first---and see why poverty, language difficulties, class
size, lack of parental support and lack of funding are the real issues.
This is my liberal take. When I was last visiting Germany, my
friends took half a day to go over their girl's school work. They took interest
in the education of their kids. They knew their kids teachers. Here
kids grown up in intellectual deprivation at home. Parents never cultivated a
rich English vocabulary. The kids go to monster truck events and not libraries
or museums. There are few books in the home because the parents never read. It's Fox News and football and rarely something educational on TV. Kids
are bought ATV's and X-boxes but, money is rarely allocated to buy books, travel
to see other cultures or for educational expenses.School have become
child care centers. Parents save money letting the government watch their kids.
The parents, who don't show any interest in education, think their kids will be
magically transformed without parental involvement. It's this culture of
parental entitlement, where kids are tax credits and deductions and the money to
educate kids is extracted from the labor of others that has caused much of this
problem. It's easier to blame liberals and unions.
Several comments here mentioned, "I hate the UEA", "schools have gradually
deteriorated since unions came in", etc., with no evidence or supporting
details. I don't understand the venom.The UEA doesn't hire or fire
a single educator. They have never set one curriculum standard or passed one
education law or policy. They have not funded or underfunded one district or
school, nor have they set one tax in the state. They have tried to
influence better educationl environments for students and educators for over a
century. Yes, they have been around for 100 years, so I guess
schools have been deteriorating since at least 1910.
*’Utah last in U.S. in spending per pupil — again.’ —
By Molly Farmer and Lee Davidson — 06/29/10 — DSNews
Line:‘The census found that Utah schools spend on average $5,765 per
student in 2007-08. Idaho was second-lowest at $6,931 — but that was still
20 percent higher than what was spent in Utah.’
I like the idea that children should be proficient readers by 3rd grade or they
Some teacher this year are dealing with 40+ students.But do not worry we
do not need any more money for education in this state - we will just pay a bush
to come here and give us a pep talk.I wonder how much money
per student in Florida they pay for education?
For clarification, my organization is American Preparatory Schools and didn't
have anything to do with flying Governor Bush out here. We currently have 2
schools, one with 70% of the students who are economically disadvantaged and
over 50% are minority students. We are in the trenches, working to try to fix
this problem of minority underachievement. Our other school is in
Draper. We have 30 students per class (or more) at our schools, but we do break
into small classes for reading, spelling and mathematics instruction which is
key. Having a large class for other subjects doesn't seem to impact our
academic success. Last year 3 grades in our Draper school achieved 100%
proficiency on the state language arts test (2nd, 7th and 8th) meaning 100% of
our students mastered the content for their grade level. 100% of our Alg 1
students achieved mastery; 100% of our Geometry students achieved mastery.We are working to bring this kind of success to our students in West
Valley and are seeking to learn from those who have succeeded. Yesterday's
lunch was an opportunity for us to learn more about how we can help our students
@Carolyn"We know what works. We just don't have the will to
implement it. And it doesn't cost more money. It is just a matter of will. Let's
work on that - if we find the will, success will follow."How much
did your organization pay to fly Jeb Bush out here to give a pep talk? I'm sure
he doesn't come cheap. Is that one of those things that works?
Class size does affect learning--example--we lived in Washington state where are
older children wrote 3-4 papers during the fall of 9th grade. We were
transferred to Utah and my younger children were required to write only 1 paper
that first semester of 9th grade--why--teachers don't want to read 3-4 four
papers written by 35 plus students--smaller classes more writing!!! Get it!
Not likely to happen in Utah, it would mean giving up some funds by every
school. Utah does not believe in education but it does believe in manipulation
of data for desired results to get money, and lots of it. And this proposal will
offer new avenues of data manipulation. Utah education will never agree to
holding back children to learn to read, do math, or graduating. Education is a
game of fiscal adaptations for financial gains, and they don't gain but lose for
every child held back because of not learning. Children in schools
are treated like a mark on a chart and if they learn anything that's secondary.
Money comes first, education is just collateral achievements which only a few
can obtain. Federal standards of eduction are so far out in left field it why no
child gets an education. Education is based on federal funding indoctrination
standards, not learning or a full education.Education standards
should be based on learning, not federal standards for funding. And this is all
this Bush guy is doing. Federal standards deserve and F, not the schools.
To boost student performance, Bush supplied schools with reading coaches to help
teachers who "didn't know how to teach literacy."===Dang, and
most Utah schools had to let their reading specialists go, because it was
important to the legislature and taxpayers that everyone "feel the pain".
our schools need help Lets try Jebs Ideas What have we got to lose We could be
surprised by the results. Our schools have Gradually deteriorated since the
Unions came in. Lets not punish our Students any longer. Some of the comments
have been really selfish We can do better I believe Moracle's coments were
very good We need more accountability by everyone
Just two more things. NCLB is a flawed piece of work. Also before taking things
at face value do some research and dig deeply before making snap decisions. I
would not be posting my complete displeasure with the Florida school system if I
hadnt lived through it myself and I can promise you a GREAT many kids in Florida
are private school educated. It is a southern tradition, if families can afford
it they do it. Take a vacation to Florida and talk to the parents perhaps things
are better now. Could definately not have gotten any worse.
Oh my this has really hit a nerve for me. I lived in Florida under Mr J Bush.
It was a nightmare. This pass/fail 3rd grade issue had children who should be in
5th grade stuck in 3rd. It didnt matter what grades they had retention (held
back) was based solely on TESTS. A staight B student could be retained. I had
teachers come to me and quietly suggest I home school or private school my
children. Morale was very low among teachers. One of my kids teachers literally
walked off the job with no notice! Teacher conference was degrading for the
parents. We were subjected to information without being allowed to ask
intelligent questions. I am a Republican voter with conservative leanings but
wow did I question NCLB. It was the most demeaning experience to be told I didnt
have ANY say in my childrens education, and yes I was told that. I am a
educated, calm, member of society but that day I blew it and withdrew all 5 of
my kids and told my Husband we were on a trek back to UTAH with our WONDERFULLY
overcrowded self sacrificing underpaid teachers.
If class size does not matter, then why do Charter Schools in Utah limit their
class sizes to around 25 students and claim that it is better for their
student's learning. If class size doesn't matter then the district size
shouldn't matter either. Instead of dividing districts let's make large
districts, at least countywide districts. We could save money on district
administrations and other district office staff that way. We might even look at
a statewide district and let the State Office of Education be the
administration.Instead of listening to politicians, district and
charter administrators, Parents for Choice, and other groups, maybe we should be
asking TEACHERS what works, what doesn't, what they would like to change, and
what they actually need and dream of having in the classrooms in technology,
texts, and tests. Teachers who are currently teaching, not former teachers or
administrators. Ask those with current knowledge.
I have a problem with public funds going to pay for private schools; however, I
don't have a problem with holding schools accountable. As an educator, I see
two important things ignored by many of the detractors here: student
accountability and results.1. Students are not advanced with their
peer group but according to their abilities. Much time and money is wasted
every year trying to teach 4th grade to 9th graders.2. Whatever
Florida did worked, and we're not just talking about standardized tests.
The lunch today was an opportunity for those of us who realize there is a
problem (low student achievement, particularly among our minority students) to
hear from someone who led a state to success in educating those students.It is surprising that many are offended by Florida's success, reject it
and are not willing to step up to help find the solutions. If you
have the answers, please implement them and help our students. If you don't
have the answers, perhaps attending these types of forums where people who have
succeeded can share how they did it would be a good idea.We need
thousands of Utahns to get interested, get informed, and get working on this
challenge. We must learn to understand our failures and be willing to implement
strategies of PROVEN success. Education isn't rocket science - it really isn't
terribly complex. We know what works. We just don't have the will to implement
it. And it doesn't cost more money. It is just a matter of will. Let's work
on that - if we find the will, success will follow.
Would it help you if you knew that Jeb Bush and a paid for luncheon for many of
the 300 touted as attending was funded by "Parents for Choice". A new angle at
an old idea of "vouchers".
I used to live in Florida under then Governor Bush, and let me start by saying
that he is the smarter brother.I have seen the public results of
this program in place. It forces the community and the state to get involved in
the performance of each and every school. It also make each school individually
accountable. I've seen average schools get to exceptional, and failing schools
to get average.If the school faile to improve you as parents get to
decide which school that you would like to send your child to. Once you've made
that decision, then the state funding for your child will go to that school
instead of the one locally in your school district that is failing. The better schools get more money from the state to help continue the current
level of performance of the school.
At the junior high where I teach, my English students scored in the 93rd
percentile on the CRTs this past year--we just received our results. Does this
ever make news? Not a bloody chance. Utah schools, including mine, are
succeeding, despite the meddling of inept politicians who want to see us fail so
they can promote their ideologies. Don't believe everything you read in the
It's great to have ideas about how to improve education but I wonder if we spent
as much per student in Utah as they did in Florida what our results would be.
I'd venture to say Utah would have better results. To mandate all
the changes Bush implemented without increased funding would be another insult
to our teachers from the legislature who seem to like to insult educators.
Class size doesn't matter? Crazy!! School Choice? Utah has it (open
enrollments, charter, home schools, online, concurrent enrollment, private).
Teaching to the test? Not a good teaching practice and NOT education. Really,
this is about minor politicians listening to big shot politicians from their
political party instead of students, parents, and educators.
When people are held accountable for their performance, performance improves for
the majority; and the minority, unwilling to improve, should leave the
establishment requiring accountability, which is also an improvement.Few like to be held accountable, and that's the reason we have so much
mediocrity in our educational and other government-run institutions.Where there is no accountability, we tend to get lazy and perform more poorly
than we should. It's called "human nature"; although there are some sterling
characters who consistently try to do their best, supervised or not.Years ago, I worked as a telemarketer for extra income. There was also an
elementary school teacher working for extra money. Her grammar and pronunciation
of our English language was so terrible, I silently gave thanks that she was not
a teacher of any child of mine. There simply MUST be a standard to
which our teachers are held, if they are to continue teaching. Our children do
not deserve being cheated out of an education, because their teacher didn't have
one. I wonder how many comments opposing accountability for students
and teachers are from those in the field of education?
I support choice, hate the UEA and I believe it is my responsibility, as well as
my wife's, to educate my children. The school can supplement, but they can't
substitute.I am certainly not so far removed from my time at
Brighton High to recall of my experience as sanguine, my teachers as "noble" or
to believe that the education was glorious. Most of my teachers were there to
punch a clock and cared as much about teaching as they did about what they wore
to work. There were exceptions, but the better part were union members first
educators second.My kids attend public schools and I make sure I
teach them what they need to know to make the grade.
How much did it cost Florida to run this program?I would be
interested in those numbers.Also, often in these articles they say
they can take their funding and choose to go to another school.Where
would you do this in Utah?It isn't like we have a bunch of empty
schools or classrooms. Every school I have ever been in is full
Bush: No Child Left Behind.Bush: No Child Left Behind?Bush: No Child Left behind!Wait a minute.Haven't we
seen this movie before?Hey! It does not matter what Republican
Royalty tell to those Republicans out in Utah.They want to be seen
as part of "Our Grab for Power"; they will fall for anything.Teaching to the test...Letter grades for schools...Money for highly graded schools...Privatizing public funds...Truly avant-guarde.
On KSL he is quoted as saying that class size doesn't matter. I would like to
challenge him to try to discipline and manage 30-40 eight year olds and try to
teach them to some pre-set curriculum standards. I'm sure every elementary
teacher would love to hear about his great discipline techniques with children
who will not behave and whose parents do not care. I'm sure he has spent much
time in a classroom and could give great guidance. Oh wait...
If you want kids who score well on standardized tests, adopt the model. If you
want entrepreneurs, go elsewhere.
All this advice from a politician who "raised the bar up." Is it even possible
to raise a bar down?
Does it work better than No Child Left Behind? Does he have to fudge the
numbers like his brother did to make it look like it works?
It is nice that a visitor can help us with public education, but this is more of
playing politics. This state used to be known for higher percentage of children
in school and a higher standard of education. But then some one got the brainy
idea that kids do not need education unless they were wealthy and so they cut
back on school funding and student acheivement buy putting more kids in the same
class to over burden the teachers, removing aids, lack of school equipment and
lack of student courses. This mentality continues today. This is due to the
strong influence of one political party that beleives in making huge profit over
proper training and services, but get the funds for contracts for their business
buddies. We already have knowlegeable Educational leaders but not with any input
to this Administration or Congress. There fore we as the state of Utah are on a
steep decline until we change the attitudes and direction of priorities. Good
luck with that acheivement.
Given that success of the system despite under-funding was attributed to string
cultural support, what is his purpose in being here? To encourage more
government spending, or promote additional cultural support? Neither seems
Seems that when someone who has met with success is willing to share they better
be willing to take our criticisms as well.In many school in small
communities in Utah the substitute teachers are paid less than $8.50 an hour to
be responsible for an entire classroom. In case anyone is intersted you can
make more babysitting.What do you expect from teachers making $8-$12
an hour? You may know some really good teachers as I do but they are not in
classrooms anymore. They are working driving big trucks, working for
corporations, computer companies and working in the oilfield because as a
society or state we value those positions and are willing to pay for them even
though we say we love education.
Who paid for him to be here? Whose agenda is he here to promote? He didn't
just show up of his own accord. That would have been an important item to
include in the article.
I am a conservative Republican. We have choice now. I can choose to sacrifice
and send my children to a private school, I can choose to school them at home...
which I do anyway as a good parent, or to a sub par charter school or I can
choose to send my children to a great neighborhood public school. I have
school choice. Anyone that says they want more choice probably has a financial
interest in charter or Private schools. We have a great constitutionally
mandated public school system in Utah. Parents educate kids. Schools are
there as resources. If your kids do poorly in public schools you may want to
point at yourselves rather than the school. I find that the effort you put into
schools you also get out ten fold. Public education is a bargain in Utah. Join
with me in supporting your neighborhood public school..... NOT THE UEA but your
neighborhood public school.
Don't be bigoted. The guy oversaw a huge jump in educational results, and that's
really hard to do. Personally, I'll sit at the table with anyone who has good
ideas, no matter what party he is from.
No, they didn't start to improve learning they learned how to game the system.
Maybe kooky liberials will listen to someone from out of state who's not a
Mormon? Then again maybe they won't?Regardless what a novel idea ...
Choice! and along with that Grade the schools, grade the teachers, give
parents a choice where to send their children, reward achivement. UEA leaders
are going to blow a gasket when they see this.
The edumacashunation of our kids is importantest to us. We should insurarate
that our kids are as well edumacated as Mr. Bush's brother was. If only the
teachers understood the strategery of the situation they could improve the
nuklar education.To paraphrase our former President and the brother
of the guest speaker.
I have never seen a standardized test increase student achievement. I have seen
politicians use standardized tests to further their own careers but I have never
seen a standardized test cause a kid to learn more, learn better or for that
matter significantly signal whether or not a child will be successful in life.
I have however, seen many great and noble teachers create classroom
environments where kids learn to love learning, learn to love innovation and
learn to be better citizens, husbands, wives, students etc. I have seen schools
help children be their very best. Today I see great teachers who love the
children but loathe the fact that they must teach to the test in order to
justify their existence for another year. I see parents who send their kids to
school unprepared and then blame the school. It is the parents
responsibility to raise the child and educate the child. The teacher and the
school is simply a resource to do so. When the public understands that then
students will succeed. Until then politicians can continue to manipulate
standardized testing to show both the good and bad of public education. Support
our Utah Public Schools.
A Bush telling Utah how to improve education? Is our education really that bad?
Then again, with the worst education funding in the country, it should not come
as a surprise.