Comments about ‘Judges rule against Utah highway crosses for fallen troopers’

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Utah's attorney general strongly disagrees with appeals court

Published: Thursday, Aug. 19 2010 12:41 a.m. MDT

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Pawtucket

Does anyone appreciate the irony of all the Christians railing against this court decision, about the exclusion of Christian symbols on PUBLIC property, while simultaneously ranting about government’s failure to exclude an Islamic mosque on PRIVATE property?

The majority of Americans are Christians, but that does not mean that America is a Christian county. It is fundamental that freedom of religion includes freedom from religion.

charlie91342

re - Breeze | 4:57 p.m

"They cannot be something different than a cross. If it was just a badge looking little sign that would not say anything to anyone about the reason it's there. People passing by wouldn't know that it was an officer who gave his/her life for us! Seeing the cross communicates that fact to us and a sense of reverence and appreciation, for that person it is representing, comes over us."


I have asked this numerous times and not seem a post answer it yet, so I'll ask again.

if the officers' religion was devil worship, and the memorials were upside-down pentagrams or some other devil symbol, would all you Utah christians be ok with that? Big huge devil symbols along your freeway!

if your answer is that it would bother you, then you have answered your own question of why these crosses are a problem. because all you are saying is that it's ok if they represent your religion but not if they represent a religion you don't like.

what if the officers were gay, and the huge monuments were two men kissing! how would that go over?

realitycheck247

I just have to ask, if for no other reason than to get the point across -

if the fallen officers were gay, and their families wanted their memorials to be two men kissing, would you be ok with big statues of men kissing on your freeway?

think about it.

charlie91342

re - Breeze | 4:57 p.m

"If it was just a badge looking little sign that would not say anything to anyone about the reason it's there."

and yet when you drive by these crosses, they look like just big crosses - the "memorial" part that indicated what they are for is very small. so they don't indicate to the passer-by that they are for a fallen officer - they simply say "hi - I represent christianity".

if you really wanted to put up something so people would know it was a memorial to a fallen officer, you would have put up a sign saying "dedicated to fallen officer "xyz" for his dedication and service. We love you".

now that I can appreciate.

the truth

RE: charlie91342

MOst what you have uttered in nonsense and drivel

and full faced hate toward religous speech and public expession,


The founding father had MUCH involvement of religion on the public square,

During the time of the Founding fathers, when they were still alive and running things,


there was religion in school,


the congressional press publish religious materials,


they hosted church and chruch meetings in government buildings,


there was prayer,

they had official ecclesiastical positions,

government building had religons symbols and artwork through out them,


and they often invoked God and religion in speeches and talk,




The intentions of the founding fathers was quite clear.


There is no separation church and state, NO hostilty towards religion in the public square,



To say no money is to be spent for any religous purposes,

and the government and the public square must be devoid of any thing religous,

is just plain wrong

and if you say that was the wish of the founding fathers,

that is an absolute bald-faced lie.


which REAL and ACTUAL history belies.



Pawtucket

In California, sections of roadways are dedicated to fallen officers with appropriate signage. More information, less controversy.

Sutton

"what if the officers were gay, and the huge monuments were two men kissing! how would that go over?"


__________________


It would be ok, because two Gay men kissing does not represent Homosexuality!!!(Like Crosses don't represent Christianity)

;-)

wrz

@LDS Liberal

"I will defend Islam with the same fervor as I defend Mormons, or Catholics, or Jews, or Wiccans."

Would you defend Islam if it insisted in installing Shariah Law in, say, your home town... and insisted that your wife and your daughters wore the burka or else.

Don't laugh, I predict England will have Shariah is just a few decades. I have English friends who see it coming. There are some enclaves of dominant Muslims in this country who are contemplating the same thing.

"If you feel the Constitution is divinely inspired, put you money where your mouth is -- and defend it."

It is divinely inspired. But the founding fathers had no idea that America would have to deal with other religions besides benign Christianity. That part they got wrong.

1happycamper

geez! I don't see where a CROSS is hurting anyone. Good grief folks--get a life and LEAVE IT ALONE! life goes on.....

dbrown1447

Let's get something straight up front. We are Atheists, not Athiests.

We are all around you. We serve as firefighters, police officers, nurses, surgeons, doctors and teachers. All we ask is that this great nation follow the Constitution, a document where god and Jesus are mentioned zero times. A large segment of our founding fathers were atheists and/or nonchristians, and wouldn't be caught dead inside a Christian church. Jefferson. Washinton. Adams. Paine. Madison. Franklin. Allen.

TKO78

re- Charlie91342 2:46 p.m.

"it is a christian memorial. on public land. and it's not even a "marker" it's a monument."

"answer me this. If it were a huge pentagram instead of a cross would you still be ok with it?"

Actually, the origin of the pentagram is also Christian in nature. The 5 points of the star represent the 5 wounds of Christ. Over time the symbol has adopted other meanings but it once was a "Christian" symbol as well.





Sorry Charlie!

@ TKO78: Actually, the pentagram predates Christ by about 3000 years. Like many symbols, holidays, and rituals it was co-opted by early Christians as a way to ease the transition from heathen or pagan religions into Christianity.

Sorry Charlie!

Okay - wait - I am really confused here.

We have several stories this week on a proposed building in NYC being built by Muslims which may or may not be a mosque and the general consensus is that, even though it is private property and the Muslims have a right to build there, it is insensitive for them to do so and they should just voluntarily buy other property some where else to build their building.

Then, we have this story about crosses being erected on public property and, even though the majority of Americans consider the cross to be a religious symbol and Constitutionally these crosses should not be put up by the state on public property, many of those who are arguing that the Muslims are being insensitive also think that those who are offended by the crosses should be less sensitive and get over it.

Does anybody else see a contradiction between these two positions? Would anyone who is against the "mosque" and for the "crosses" be willing to explain to me why a mosque on private property is wrong but a cross on public property is okay?

charlie91342

re - the truth | 6:12 p.m

"MOst what you have uttered in nonsense and drivel"

thanks! now can you be more specific?

"During the time of the Founding fathers, when they were still alive and running things, there was religion in school, the congressional press publish religious materials, they hosted church and chruch meetings in government buildings, there was prayer,
they had official ecclesiastical positions, government building had religons symbols and artwork through out them, and they often invoked God and religion in speeches"

that was 1776. Blacks were slaves. women couldn't vote. and people were probably still being burned at the stake for being witches. the word evolution may not have even been invented yet. I'm not sure if they even knew the earth was round. so I don't get your point.

Back then, everyone except a few people believed in God. There were very few other religions. Now there are thousands.

why are you still stuck in the 16th century?

"if you say that was the wish of the founding fathers, that is an absolute bald-faced lie"

founding fathers would understand present day circumstances and get rid of the crosses on the hiway

charlie91342

re - Sorry Charlie! | 10:11 a.m

"Actually, the pentagram predates Christ by about 3000 years. Like many symbols, holidays, and rituals it was co-opted by early Christians as a way to ease the transition from heathen or pagan religions into Christianity."

everything in christianity predates Jesus. Most of the stories in the bible (adam and eve, noah's ark, water to wine, most of the miracles) were all created and written on stone around 2500BC by the hunter/gatherers who worshipped multiple gods. The bible merely consolidated them into one book and changed the names. December 25th has been a religious holiday since 2000BC...

Pagan

'Would anyone who is against the "mosque" and for the "crosses" be willing to explain to me why a mosque on private property is wrong but a cross on public property is okay?' - Sorry Charlie! | 10:23 a.m.

The Mosque is on private property.

The Cross is on public property.

I agree charlie, many do not seem to understand the difference.

If you want to build a Mosque on your property, you have a constitutionally protected right to do so.

As, the cross's are on very much PUBLIC property, they must represent all, or at the very least NOT one group of Americans.

As not all Americans believe in the religious symbol of a cross.

Regardless of the flavor of religion (Muslim, Jewish, Catholic, Buddist, etc) answering to the public you must make adherence to ALL denominations...

or, at the very least, something that does not favor any.

A shield would be acceptable.

A cross is for those who only believe Jesus died on a cross.

And does not represent the diveristy if America that makes us strong.

Joggle

Our founders wisely adopted a secular, godless constitution, the first to derive its powers from "We, the People" and the consent of the governed, rather than claiming divine authority. They knew from the experience of religious persecution, witchhunts and religious discrimination in the Thirteen Colonies, and from the bloody history left behind in Europe, that the surest path to tyranny was to entangle church and state. That is why they adopted a secular constitution whose only references to religion are exclusionary.

Atheists/agnostics etc. are stepping up to fight against religious tyranny, for there are surely those fighting as hard as they can on theocracy’s behalf to establish religious dominance. Conservative Christians are in battle mode over their perceived right to force their religion on all Americans. Attempts to portray themselves as the victims only makes sense in that they are weakening. Fortunately, atheists/agnostics etc. are putting up resistance to religious tyranny just like the religious did when they sought religious freedom. Rather than fight for control, we stand up for freedom. For all the Christians who wear their faith on their neighbor’s sleeve, there are also those who truly embody the noble spirit of fairness.

@Charles

My Dear Dear Stalwart Sentinel: I will tell you from the outset that I love you, no matter your political persuasions.

However, you have failed to show where Congress passed a law that has established a religion. Are you able to do that? If not, then it is you who is unable to actually read and understand the 1st Amendment.

Unlike you, I don't bow down to precedent by any court, specifically when SCOTUS ignores what the Constitution actually says. There are many examples of SCOTUS completely ignoring the very words of the COTUS.

You can do your own research to find out the state religions of the 13 states. It's a free land! Get educated!

Joggle

@Charles

Perhaps you should consider NOT wearing YOUR faith on your neighbor’s sleeve! It is a biased misconception by the religious that doubters, skeptics, non-believers etc. are somehow less or not as good because of their non-belief. Goodness doesn't come from religious belief since religious people have no patent on goodness. It comes from being a good person. Whether you believe or not is irrelevent.

cindyacre

Many of the founding fathers were not members of organized religions of their day, but to call their religions persuasion atheist is wrong - in their writings they all talked of God, and approved of the Declaration of Independence that states that our rights - life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are from our common Creator.

I don't understand what religious tyranny you speak of - does anyone come to your home and threaten to kill you if you don't belong to their religion? Does anyone bullly, force or coerce you to think the way or dress the way that they do? That, to me, is tyranny.

There are laws in our country - to help to keep us all safe and bring fairness (in principle and practice) to life, but they are far from "confining" or "tyranny". It is through obedience to law that we are free - from the tyranny of lawlessness. So it is in most religions - to live according to commandments and covenants is a personal choice. That freedom of choice should not be offensive to anyone, for we ALL have that freedom. So, what is the problem?

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