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Comments about ‘Mormons need to work to increase favor’

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Published: Saturday, Aug. 7 2010 12:44 a.m. MDT

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Joggle

@mkSdd3

I'm sure DN is going to post my first response so here is the shortened version. Thanks for clarifying, but you still have misconceptions and that leads me to think YOU are hyper-sensitive. I hope this clarifies!

Simply put....I separate you from your religion. It is your religion I have disdain for....not you personally. You might be an absolutely wonderful person personally! You obviously don't understand how your posts have come across to me though. I don't view disagreement with my views and beliefs as an attack, however I do view statements attacking my character, motives, etc....such as saying I'm a negative person or unworthy to post to rather than debating the issue on logical grounds and merits as an attack.

Your religion may be bring you much joy and happiness....but you can't expect it to bring the same to everybody. I don't think most people here are trying to change my opinion except maybe a limited few. I certainly am not trying to change opinion either. If anything, I'm just presenting a view of an opposing belief. If it gets people thinking....so be it!

Independent

To Joggle: "It goes both ways."

That's all I'm saying. I don't make it a point tell everybody that I'm Mormon and spew out what I believe whether they asked for it or not, but I don't feel that I should have to hide it either. There other people in this world that do rude things or make mistakes, but where I live, if that person also happens to be a Mormon, it's the Mormonness that becomes the issue, and suddenly I have to defend my mormonness to everybody who heard about the incident. Is that fair? Some people in Northern Arizona practice polygamy, and I have to explain it to everybody and prove that I don't engage in the same practice. Is that fair?

mkSdd3

@Joggle | 2:54 p.m. Aug. 10, 2010

I am glad to hear that you only hate the Mormon part of me. I am also glad to hear that you can separate the Mormon part of me from what ever is left over. I can not do that my self. Being LDS is part of me, it is in me and through me. Being Mormon is not something that I can just put aside when I do not wish to be offensive. It is with me 24/7.

Just to be clear if you hate my religion you are hating part of me. It is like you saying you hate my head but the rest of you I don't find offensive at all.

zinnia

My problem as a member of the LDS church is that I cannot be controlled by the controllers. I watch members try to control friendships, people and try to start silly cliquish neighborhood circles, and exclude all others who don't wish to be controlled by CLIQUISH members. There is always a leader of these circles. My own personal opinion about this are that these are the most 'miserable' members within the church with their noses high in the air and always have their noses in everyone's face..... Now please guys don't you jump in all at once and gang up on me. Remember I have a dog.

Joggle

mkSdd3

I don't hate you! I never said I did. You are the one who assumes I hate your religion or you personally. I don't even know you. I don't even hate your religion. There are some positive aspects as well as negative aspects. The aspects I see as negative is what I simply disagree with and don't see in a positive light. I'm sure you could look at me the same way! I expect that. Do you hate me for my beliefs which are a part of me? It goes both ways....the disdain! If you can never step away from your religion....it will be difficult for you to understand much of the world that differs from yours....just saying!

Alberta Reader

Joggle
My evidence is as follows, Google
Are Science and Christianity Compatible
It will bring up a website about Jesus from scholars. This website has nothing to do with the LDS church as well.

wild flower

Joggles has a right to her own personal views and beliefs. No one has the right to tell her she is wrong. She believes like many people outside the church with a strong conviction of what she believes to be true and that is her prerogative to do so. Everyone on this earth has their own free agency rather any of you believe this, or not?. Not everyone cares or believes in Mormonism.

There are many good people outside the church that do not believe. I know Mormons who are active who are much worse and hypocritical than those they slam around and call apostates and antis. Believe me this is the truth.

Joggle

@wild flower

I appreciate your thoughts, but I have one correction. People do have the right to tell me they think I'm wrong, however when they do...I expect them to present very strong evidence to back their claims or beliefs. Although some do present evidence...it is usually not certain or reasonable enough to change my beliefs or opinion. Many others attempts at discussion just turn into unproductive exchanges based on emotion instead of facts and evidence. For some faith is enough...for others....it will never be enough. Thanks!

Joggle

@Alberta Reader

I would be glad to review your source, but I don't know which one under the "Are Science and Christianity Compatible" applies since there is more than one. I will look some more, but if you could give me more direction it would help.

One of my favorite sources can be Googled with: Jesus did not exist....look for nobeliefs. There are others, but I like that one and the writer does provide his sources.

mkSdd3

Joggle,

All I can do is read your comments above, in then you say you have disdain for me and then you say it is not me but my religion that you have disdain for. Sorry if I have misread your comments to me.

You ask if I have hate for you or your beliefs. From the very little you have told us in your comments you lean towards atheism. If that is correct I do not hate, have disdain, or any ill feeling towards you. I wouldn't care in you were Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, or Buddhist. I am not a hater, no matter what you believe. And I am quite sure that 95% of Mormons wouldn't care what you believe either.

daizy

I think the best thing anyone can do for another person is to simply mind their own business. Sometimes people gossip and back bite because they have a very low self image of themselves and have nothing better to do with their time but to find fault, condemn and battle with others. I think people just need to stop hating everyone that get in their way and let everyone live their own funny lives anyway they choose.

Good luck to you all!!! and happy religion whatever religion that might be :oB
A cat lady.

Joggle

@Alberta Reader

I think I found the link you suggested and I read it. None of it is new and is refuted quite well in my suggested link. I think you under-estimate how much I know about religion, belief, and related subjects. I have researched it thoroughly...I still do.

Joggle

mkSdd3

Just to go a step further...I have less of a problem with simple belief in a deity or God than I do with organized religion as a whole. When people separate themselves by religious doctrine and rituals it often creates alienation and conflict based on the "my religion is true and yours isn't." Although people sometimes tend to view me to be very close to being an atheist (which is true) I'm actually an agnostic/pantheist. It would be arrogant for me to say I KNOW with absolute certainty that there is NOT a biblical type God the same as I tend to think it is arrogant for a person to say they KNOW with absolute certainty there is a God. Faith is not certainty. If anybody could prove the existence of the biblical type God.....there would be no dispute over whether one exists and no dispute about what he/she/it is.

When I asked you if you hated me or my beliefs it was an attempt to get you to see that I could just as well assume you hate me and my beliefs from YOUR posts, but I didn't.

LDS Liberal

Joggle --

I sincerely apologize for somee members of my "faith".

Sometimes they can be decieving by claiming they "Know" something.

No one "KNOWS" God lives -
but I believe he does, and I also believe some may have even seen him.

But, that is the purpose of life.
To walk by and have "Faith".

If we truley know something - we no longer have faith, and the plan is foiled.

Frisbee player

@ Joggle

"I certainly am not trying to change opinion either. If anything, I'm just presenting a view of an opposing belief."

"When I asked you if you hated me or my beliefs it was an attempt to get you to see that I could just as well assume you hate me and my beliefs from YOUR posts, but I didn't. "

The difference between our posts and your posts is that we are defending differing views by others. You say that you are simply "presenting a view of an opposing belief", but you write your posts as more of an attack rather than a differing of an opinion. Many others write differing opinions, yet they aren't attacks at us mormons(some are).

You are welcome to your opinion and to even share your opinion. And you say you don't hate us. But you write as if you "disdain", despise and hate us. You come across as "offended" and "bitter" at us. You redicule and mock our beliefs.

We do not attack you, but you surely attack us.

Frisbee player

@ Joggle

"I certainly am not trying to change opinion either. If anything, I'm just presenting a view of an opposing belief."

"When I asked you if you hated me or my beliefs it was an attempt to get you to see that I could just as well assume you hate me and my beliefs from YOUR posts, but I didn't. "

The difference between our posts and your posts is that we are defending differing views by others. You say that you are simply "presenting a view of an opposing belief", but you write your posts as more of an attack rather than a differing of an opinion. Many others write differing opinions, yet they aren't attacks at us mormons(some are).

You are welcome to your opinion and to even share your opinion. And you say you don't hate us. But you write as if you "disdain", despise and hate us. You come across as "offended" and "bitter" at us. You redicule and mock our beliefs.

We do not attack you, but you surely attack us.

Joggle

@Frisbee Player

Will DN let me defend myself to you? I'll try again. Criticism is a fact of life. All too often people see criticism as an attack on who they are. It is seen more as an insult, however in most cases it is not. I've already said (in different words) that I'm criticizing your religion...not you personally. Is your religion above criticism? What you want to focus on is not taking criticism that you perceive as attacks personally. I'm sorry if my criticism hurts you personally, but is that really my fault? You are welcome to criticize my beliefs as well, however if your criticisms attack my character rather than be an answer, defense, or discussion of the contentions and claims you make...I will treat you the same as you treat me. There may be times where it seems like I have attacked character, but with the limited number of words I can use....it is unintentional. I can't help that people take criticism of their religion as an attack on them personally. Perhaps you should consider how you come across to me as well. I hope you understand.

Joggle

@LDS Liberal

Thank you for your understanding of our differences! I respect your faith despite being unable to have faith of a religious nature myself!

Joggle

An afterthought to Frissbee Player

Note that this particuliar article is about Mormons being seen unfavorably and because of that the opinions of personal characteristics of LDS people as perceived by people outside the religion are a part of the responses. Those expressed by me aren't necessarily mine personally although some are, but are from those that I know (I come from another state)....including some former members of your Church.

Vanka

Joggle has said it well.

I am reminded of a scene from an X-Men movie where a human doctor says they "just want to help the mutants". The "mutant" responds: "Do we look like we need your help?"

It is offensive, patronizing, arrogant, and blind to presume you have some sort of "truth" that everyone else is lacking, and feel it your duty to "enlighten" those of us so "unworthy" to be unable to "see" your "truth".

The very language you use is filled to the brim with presumptuous, offensive terms and ideas, and betrays your [erroneous] assumptions of moral superiority.

Until you honestly and sincerely strip away such deeply-seated arrogance and pretense, you will continue to be looked upon with disdain.

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