Comments about ‘Ogden weighs streetcar placement’

What the Ogden residents fail to realize is that the bus route that follows 25th Street and Harrison in this area is not really racking up the fares. It's already proven that it's not a winner, so why build a permanent, fixed-rail option on a mediocre route? Going down Washington makes a LOT more sense economically, and will gather many more riders naturally. Putting it past a senior center doesn't make sense, as the residents there aren't going to ride it anyway. And the library stop gets very few pickup-dropoffs on most runs, so it's not a factor. However, the Junction, the Municipal Building, and everything on Washington could use a non-car access, the parking is limited already. This will provide it.

As long as it touches the bus/train station, downtown, WSU and IHC it's fine. Let it pay for itself and then expand it later. Going north up Washington to North Ogden (I live off Mountain so there's a bit of bias here) would be the next logical move then down Riverdale Road. After that you could add lines as the people want. Until then it needs to be economically viable as a transit line not ambiance against a backdrop of ancient homes.

"The cost to build rail for the proposed routes and buy streetcars, which are smaller than light-rail vehicles, is roughly $156 million, regardless of the alternative, Carpenter said."

For that money you can provide three times the amount of service via bus as you can if you squander the money on a trolley.

The economic development numbers that UTA is throwing out are highly suspect. They're assuming, for instance, that the entire Harmon's strip mall will be torn down and redeveloped.

To respond to the previous comments: Actually the existing 603 bus route on 25th and Harrison is one of the most heavily used in the city--perhaps the most heavily used. And a large fraction of its riders get on and off in the historic neighborhood. As for the cost, yes, if someone just handed us the cash, it might be better to invest it in more buses. But the sources of funds that are available for this project cannot be used on ordinary buses. They're only for "fixed guideway" transit systems, which means either rail or bus in an exclusive right-of-way. Those constraints come from the Utah Legislature and the Federal Transit Administration.

This article, while good, incorrectly frames the issue about people wanting to have the trolley go through the historic neighborhoods so they can look at the pretty houses. The 25th route is Transit-Oriented Development and Washington is NOT. UTA is promoting a design that drastically over-engineers the guideway. The projections they are using are almost twice the cost of what they should be ($12-15 mil. per mile) The guideway needs to be fixed, but according to the Obama admin. guidelines, it does not need to be exclusive to the streetcar- there is no need for a separate travel lane- but w/ the streetcars operating in the same lane as cars. THIS IS HOW ALL STREETCARS WORK-IN THE FLOW OF TRAFFIC- THIS IS NOT LIGHT RAIL- UTA seems not to understand the difference and is pretending to be experts at streetcars, when they nor their consultants have ever planned a streetcar route. They want to play the experts, but this is clearly amateur hour, with UTA at the helm and treating Ogden city residents, such as myself, as second-class citizens. They can afford to make these mistakes because it won't affect them.

This article, while good, incorrectly frames the issue about people wanting to have the trolley go through the historic neighborhoods so they can look at the pretty houses. The 25th route is Transit-Oriented Development and Washington is NOT. UTA is promoting a design that drastically over-engineers the guideway. The projections they are using are almost twice the cost of what they should be ($12-15 mil. per mile). The guideway needs to be fixed, but according to the Obama admin. guidelines, it does not need to be exclusive to the streetcar- there is no need for a separate travel lane- but w/ the streetcars operating in the same lane as cars. This is how street cars work- in the flow of traffic- this is not light rail. UTA seems not to understand the difference and is pretending to be experts at streetcars, when neither they nor their consultants have ever planned a streetcar route. They want to play the experts, but this is clearly amateur hour, with UTA at the helm and treating Ogden city residents, such as myself, as second-class citizens. They can afford to make these mistakes because it won't affect them.

One point that keeps being overlooked is that we are not talking about public transportation as it has been seen in the past, that is, as a means of getting from point A to point B. The purpose of the current federal funding and the reason for even considering a Streetcar is to promote Transit Oriented Development. To make urban areas more pedestrian friendly, thereby simultaneously reducing auto centric transportation, and revitalizing urban centers. Ogden NEEDS more people coming into downtown and STAYING there. Spending taxable dollars there. Cleaning up the neighborhoods and making it safe, pleasant, and efficient to live, work, and thrive there.

For those people who have actually ridden on streetcars, the value of this means of public transportation to enhance urban revitalization is obvious. The streetcar is unique in its ability to integrate foot traffic with other vehicular traffic. It is designed to flow with traffic, and its low profile eliminates the need for curbing that other light rail systems require. One glaring concern is that the "expert consultants" hired to design our streetcar DO NOT UNDERSTAND this very basic concept. Why then, are we allowing them to design our Streetcar system???

How could the commitee and/or Ogden even think of building the streetcar anywhere other than along 25th??

This debate shouldnt be about pretty houses, it should be about the center and heart of the city. After all the time, effort and money that Ogden has spent renewing the CBD and making 25th once again a family-friendly jewel, why throw it all away by taking the transportation system out of the heart and soul of the town.

Streetcar systems have been proven to lead to healthy, energetic, and profitable cities and neighborhoods, but for that to happen the line need to go through the CENTER of it.

In Portland, one of the last decades most successful streetcar programs (yes, it shares the same lanes with cars with no added lanes, or disturbed businesses) the streetcar itself led to the immense redevelopment and beautification in the center of the city's CBD and core neighborhoods.

The committee needs to spend it's time taling with Portland and other cities that have done this with great success. The answer in every case will never be to move the people out of the heart of the city you are trying to save!!

Why would you not run the streetcar up 25th? It would be ridiculous not to...

UTA has consistently tried to paint the Ogden street car advocates as selfishly trying to route the street car past their houses near 25th St instead of looking out for the best interests of the community (which we should assume is UTA's mandate). Joseph Goebbels (Hitler's Minister of Propaganda) invented this tactic of consistently spreading falsehoods until a message has been heard so many times that it is seen as the truth.
In fact, many of the street car supporters intentionally purchased homes near downtown with the understanding that forward-thinking planners would recognize the inherent efficiencies of downtown living, higher density (TOD) development, rising energy prices and choose to provide transit investment where it can achieve the largest community benefit. Sadly, this not the direction that UTA is moving.
The benefits of fixed-rail street cars moving in an existing traffic lane are well-proven in other cities, and are a cost effective way to rejuvenate existing neighborhoods. Ogden is primed and ready for the street car to return to 25th St, and UTA needs to fire their light-rail consultants and hire someone who as actually done this before.

What some critics fail to realize is that a STREETCAR is not a BUS. The ludicrous comments about the Library and Senior Center make it apparent that some do not walk the walk, nor view the ridership on the 603 line.

The argument about Washington needing services ends at 26th Street. One does not need a street car to service a car lot, a check cashing store, Questar, more car lots...

What a short-sighted view does not cover is the economic development piece and what the "rails in the ground" concept brings to an area. It brings revitalization within two blocks of the rails. It brings new blood, new housing owners, new businesses and increases tax base of some of the most under-utilized ground. It brings a transportation system that is clean, green, reliable and efficient. It brings the historic look, that brings along with it, ridership - through the highest population density corner in Weber County. It brings travel by the places in the community that people already know, go, and love.

Central Ogden, also known now as the Trolley District, has changed. UTA needs to begin to work for the people who pay their salaries.

The last I heard the proposed route is 36th Street. This is a two-lane but extremely busy route across town. To interfere with this WSU traffic artery would be foolish.

House on both sides of the street would have to be moved, since the last time this street was widened the road was moved to to only a few feet from front doors. There is nowhere to expand without destroying houses.

24th, 25th and 26th street are already wide enough for a trolley line. Population downtown is more concentrated that at the south end of town. Why not serve people actually living in the center of town.

Is this route being pushed further south because there is still a dream of putting a gondola on 23rd? I wonder.