Comments about ‘Remembering American Indian population of 1847 is important, Elder Marlin K. Jensen says’

I have to comment on the religious doctrine mentioned in the article which is undoubtedly referring in part to 3 Nephi 20:16-20 wherein the Lord gave the land to the descendants of Lehi forever and that they would one day be among the gentiles as a "lion among the flocks of sheep". If this scripture applied only to the local indian tribes, it wouldn't be a very significant presence, but if we apply it to the Latino population, the meaning of the scriptures becomes crystal clear. Obviously, the Lord was referring primarily to the Latinos who are amongst us as lions amid the sheep. This and the scriptures that follow certainly puts a different spin on the immigration question and how we should view them and whether we should be involved in persecutions against them.

Elder Jensen offers compassion praise for the Indian cultures. All praise is welcome. But, in fact between Ogden and Provo, though passing through for hunting, smuggling and trading, there was no Indian Culture. Occasionally, there were temporary encampments in the "Valleys of the Smoke", but to a very large degree it was disputed territory on the borders of several tribes most concentrated areas an viewed by each as of marginal interest. The Indian claims to the Ogden to Provo area really stem from post 1847.

@ DaleC: Your point is well taken and thought provoking. Persecuting illegal aliens is one thing. The Lord also said that we should obey the laws of the land. If someone migrates to the U. S. legally nobody has a problem and welcomes those individuals. We live in a day and age where we simply must know who is here and what their intentions are. Do they want to become U. S. citizens or do they expect us to become Mexicans?

Your pioneer ancestors took this land ILLEGALLY!

I agree with @DaleC. God owns the land and not us ultimately his will be done. Truth will prevail and hatred will hot.

The Hispanics are being vilified in the state regardless of their legal status. When politicians (Sandstrom, Wimmer, etc) cook the numbers and deceive the people all Hispanics are affected. When politicians spread fear, lies, prejudice and hatred against this group all Hispanics are affected (citizens, legal residents, and illegal immigrants).

Patriot, you seem like a sincere fellow and a student of the scriptures. I am not arguing against the law, only that we apply it in a humane and compassionate manner which requires more thought than simply throwing them out. We don't have to act like a bunch of Nazis. Let's give this some thought and look for a win-win solution. One that we won't be sorry for later.
By the way, You might be interested in 1 Nephi 14:1-2. This blessing will only be accorded to those who do not harden their hearts.

I respect those who sacrificed to achieve a goal. Hearing about sacrifice from those who have never sacrificed rings hollow. When, you walk hundreds of miles for economic opportunity you show more character than those who curse your journey.

When this whole "we shouldn't break the laws of the land" argument comes up, I think of one thing. To paraphrase a famous fellow "He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone."

I have only lived here three years, but I have never, ever lived in a place where people so flagrantly broke the speeding laws, endangering other people's lives in the process. In my mind, this is far worse than slipping across the border illegally in an effort to improve the lives of your family and yourself.

When we as Utahans have achieved near perfection in being law abiding, then we can criticize others.

I applaud Dale C and others who are the voice of reason and compassion. I myself wouldn't condemn anyone for doing what our ancestors and current immigrants have done - seek this place for a better life and chance of survival for myself and family, not to mention freedom from persecution. I think I'd do the same.

I'd like to mention another side to this debate which gets little play. To quote a web site (posting rules prevent giving the URL): "Mexico, because of its close geographic proximity to the United States, has been particularly targeted by U.S. industry for wage-slavery and consequential human rights violations. The term for this Mexican neo-slavery is maquila or maquiladora." (Google this)

Do we not have ourselves, our US corporations, our elected officials (Clinton and both Reps. and Dems. for NAFTA), to blame for helping to amplify the drive to come here? Why work in an American factory in Mexico for low wages in unsafe condition, when you can come here and do better? If people (corporations particularly) do the right thing, good results, but if not, people suffer. "When the wicked rule, people mourn". D & C 98:9

@Mona P. Speeding is a more egregious infraction than illegal immigration?? Holy crap, are you serious?! Seriously out of your mind, I think. The societal ills propagated by the millions who reside here illegally and empty government welfare programs while filling our ER's and maternity wards are far more atrocious than "speeding". Come on.

re: Dale C
I appreciate your comments and your oponion. But, believe that it is indeed just that...YOUR oponion. After reading what you wrote I looked up the scriptures you mentioned in the Institute Manuel to read what it said .... It was quite different then what you wrote. I suggest that you take the time to read it. I understand that there is a time for compassion - there is also the law to deal with. Yes, Jesus taught campassion... but have you read lately the Old Testement??? Under HIS dirrection whole cities were wiped out so that the Israelites would not sucomb to their culture and religions. There is MORE at stake here then just the Mexicans coming over for work.. Look at the bigger picture.. drugs, kidnappings, killings, and a way for terrorist to get into this country... plus all the finanical horror that is going on here! There are parts of AZ that US citizens cannot even go into now because of the Mexican drug runners and parts of national forests being turned into drug gardens.. What about SS for the elderly?? God expect compassion - also for us to stand for whats right!

Fascinating article! Marlin Jensen is a thoughtful guy, and I appreciate his insights on the immigration debate.

Fascinating article! Marlin Jensen is a thoughtful guy, and I appreciate his insights on the immigration debate.

@Dubbledub, yes, I consider speeding like a maniac down the interstate far worse than running the border. I've nearly lost my life 7 times this year because of speeding trucks.

Please refer me to the immagrations laws that were in affect that the LDS Pioneers broke in coming to the Utah Valley? That was a different time and age.. the western expansion was going on all over the place.. There were no legal laws to be broken..unlike today.

[Racism is about POWER. When we can find policies created by people of color to disenfranchise Whites, then we will have reverse racism.]


Of course. But what isn't right is lumping all Hispanics together -- legal, illegal, drug runners, people wanting a better life for their children, gangs -- any more than you can lump all white people together.

Life is very nuanced, people. Things are not just black and white when it comes to immigration.

If you're not from the US, why should you automatically consider all of the US laws valid?

Dale C: "By the way, You might be interested in 1 Nephi 14:1-2.(see footnote 2a) This blessing will only be accorded to those who do not harden their hearts."

This blessing is the children or seed of Abraham would not harden their hearts towards the Lamb of God(Jesus). The Apostle Paul, "Understand,then that those who beleive are children of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith,and announced the gospel in advance All nations would be blessed through Abraham."(Gal 3:7,8).

... I was hoping DN wouldn't post my previous comment, a I copy/pasted the wrong quote. I meant to refer to this quote from JanSan ...


[God expect compassion - also for us to stand for whats right!]

Utah was not part of the U.S. at the time of immigration, so obviously there weren't U.S. laws to be broken. It would be interesting to see what Mexican laws Mormon immigrants broke. And Native American laws as well.

For me, the point of the article was that we did indeed displace people. We broke the spiritual and cultural laws of the Native Americans by seizing land in direct contrast to their beliefs that the Earth is sacred and that people need to be respectful of it.

I believe that the first LDS pioneers needed to be in Utah to be able to be free and without persecution; I also believe that we need to be sensitive to the fact that we took things of import to the Native Americans.

I feel ambiguity about the immigration debate. While I want people to be able to improve themselves, I also wish to maintain my own socioeconomic status and not have my quality of life decreased. As generous Americans, I believe we have the know-how and determination to be able to figure out how to work all of this out.

junkgeek... if you are going to live in the US then by ALL MEANS you should consider all the US laws to be valid... why wouldn't they be???????????