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Comments about ‘Long immigration waits show why some come illegally’

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Published: Sunday, July 18 2010 12:34 a.m. MDT

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Spoc

Many crimes will have both criminal penalties (jail and/or fines) and civil penalties so that I, as an individual, can sue for redress in addition to the criminal fines and fees that go to the state

Immigration law provides for both criminal and civil penalties.

Criminal penalty for first offense: up to 6 months in jail (a misdemeanor) and/or fines to be paid to the court. Civil penalty for first offense: $50 to $250 payable to the plaintiff.

Criminal penalty for subsequent offenses: up to 2 years in prison (a felony) and/or fees and penalties payable to the court. Civil penalty for subsequent civil judgments: $100 to $500 payable to the plaintiff.

Note that the speeding ticket so frequently referenced does not include incarceration. That is the defining distinction between what is classified as a crime and what is not. The penalty for both first offense and second offense can include jail/prison time.

Therefore they are both criminal offenses that may ALSO be subject to civil penalties. There is even a subsequent paragraph clarifying that civil penalties are in addition to criminal penalties, not in place of them.

Now about those subsequent enabling crimes...

Vanessa62

wrz | 2:56 p.m. July 18, 2010

So it's OK to take what you want by the barrel of a gun (so long as you're white), but not OK to build a better life by working 14-hour days for it (so long as you're non-white).

Hmmmm... m'kay. Got it.

Vanessa62

Geneina | 4:06 p.m. July 18, 2010

"I would guess that many people living under a ruthless, communist government in East Germany felt the same way. However, President Monson consistently advised them to follow the laws of the land."

Using that logic, the U.S. would still have slavery, Europe would be under Nazi rule (and European Jews, Poles, and any other non-Aryan European would be extinct), women wouldn't have the vote, child labor would still be peachy-keen, and Christianity wouldn't have made it out of the Roman Empire.

That's just for starters.

Because all those situations were "the law of the land" at some point. But here's the thing: Laws are changed all the time to reflect the changes in a society. When a law is unjust, cruel, inhuman, or just plain wrong, it is our DUTY, as citizens of a democratic society, to challenge those laws.

Otherwise we are nothing but mindless sheep, and free thought is wasted on us.

Ask the Jews who were sheltered by Germans during the Holocaust. Every one of those Germans were breaking 'the law of the land'.

What would YOU have done, I wonder?



Vanessa62

ds7 | 7:04 p.m. July 18, 2010
"why do stories about illegals deserve anonymity, but whistleblowers must be exposed and prosecuted?"

Hate to burst your hypocrisy-of-liberal-media/DN-advocates-for-illegal-immigration, but the FACTS are these:

Nobody has publicly identified the alleged 'whistleblowers', so they have not been "exposed". Charges have not been filed, therefore prosecution is not a certainty.

The only FACTS we know - at this point - is that DWFS believe two UNNAMED employees may have committed felony criminal acts.

That's, like, y'know... criminals breaking the law.

Also, re: "for every $1 an illegal contributes in taxes, they remove $3 in benefits."

Got some facts to support that sweeping statement?

Didn't think so.

And again, "we don't need any more illiterate, spanish speaking dishwashers, lawncare experts, cooks, mcdonald's counter workers, etc."

Then I guess "we" will just stop hiring them for those jobs. And, BTW, 'spanish speaking' doesn't = 'illiterate'. (That would be another of those pesky 'facts'.)

How many other languages are you fluent in? If you're the typical American, that number would be... none.

P.S. Facts are yummy. You should try some.

ouisc

To folks that say the current immigration system in the U.S. is broken: it is currently the most efficient immigration system in the world, it's just that we are dealing with the largest immigration in the world.

To folks who say the constitution protects everyone in America: can you have it both ways? Are you arguing to make changes to our laws, or not? Because the laws say those who aren't here legally should be deported.

Illegal immigration is one thing. But illegal use of other's social security number, illegal claims for medical care, and illegally obtaining government benefits, are another. There is nothing good about being in the U.S. illegally. You really should have knocked, first.

Is immigration process a pain? Yes. How much do you want to be here?? Changing country illegiances is a big deal.

JT4

I'm in my mid-40's, and most of my political views have settled into slots from which I don't expect them to move. This is one topic, however, about which I might still be open to change of mind. At this point, I thoroughly hate to hear "para Espaol" when I dial any customer service number, and my wife from Japan probably hates it more. I didn't expect to get by in English when I lived in Japan, and my wife--here legally, of course, since few Japanese try to get here the other way--doesn't expect to get by in Japanese here. I also understood that if I didn't have legal approval to be in Japan, I should not expect someone to hire my in Japan. I wish enforcement would start with those who hire, and extend to not allowing citizenship or benefits to the children of those who aren't here legally. It seems as though we don't want to address the real reasons people are here illegally. But perhaps someone can present more powerful arguments for the other side than I have yet read here.

ouisc

Vanessa, you're being a drama queen. All of your examples where's laws need to be changed are quite extreme. People voluntarily breaking the laws to come into our country is quite different from genocide or slavery.

If we're changing laws on a whim, let's let go of our strict DUI laws. They take fathers away from their families, and the children suffer when their fathers are incarcerated for 6 months, or have to pay hefty fines. Let's also not incarcerate convicted felons, for the same reason.

Instead, let's recognize the millions of people who come here legally. Many of these millions choose to stay. Many of these millions eventually acquire citizenship. It happens every day!

wrz

@cjb 5:31 p.m.:

"If law doesn't matter, then don't appeal to it."

Which law? US? Mexico?

wrz

@Vanessa62 7:19 p.m.:

"So it's OK to take what you want by the barrel of a gun (so long as you're white)..."

It's been done since the world began (at least since the invention of guns and gun powder) across the entire world. And it ain't gonna stop just becasue you might have an objection.

"...but not OK to build a better life by working 14-hour days for it (so long as you're non-white)."

It's perfectly ok to work 14-hour days to build a better life. But, if you don't hold citizenship and wish to do so in the US you must get permission from the federal government.

wrz

@Vanessa62 7:56 p.m.:

"Nobody has publicly identified the alleged 'whistleblowers', so they have not been 'exposed.'"

True. But they have been put on administrative leave which is tantamount to exposure.

"Then I guess 'we' will just stop hiring them for those jobs."

I think you are finally getting it.

"How many other languages are you fluent in?"

An interesting g point. My TV cable broadcasts perhaps a dozen programs in Spanish. I will soon need to speak Spanish in order to view them.

Enough is enough!

There is nothing wrong with our immigration laws. We do not have an obligation to take ANYONE who wants to come here. The laws provide for methodical, controlled immigration. If followed in the past, we would not be in the situation we are currently in.

Our governor and other officials have reportedly used the word "deplorable" (and other terms) to describe the leaking of the "list" from Utah government databases. It IS deplorable to break the law in this way. HOWEVER, I hope they will also use it to describe the illegals who are here. Their behavior IS deplorable as well.

If you want to be a US citizen, breaking the law is not the way to show it. You fill out the papers, pay the money and WAIT YOUR TURN!

When my great-grandfather immigrated here from Switzerland, he spoke five languages fluently. He would only allow English to be spoken in his home, because he was now an American and Americans spoke English.

We should all be grateful for Arizona...let's get behind our own legislators and follow the AZ example.

Phred

JT4,
The language question is more than an annoyance. It is a major element in defining culture. Most nations (not all) are defined by the geographic boundaries of the groups that speak a common language. These are the most stable countries.

In those countries that have internal areas with a strong affinity for a language that is different from the rest of the country, they identify not with the nation but with the sub-group and their sense of independence creates conflict and often ends in an effort to secede from the rest of the nation.

You don't have to look far to see examples of this: French Quebec wants to leave Canada, Ireland wants to kick out the English, the Basques are trying to leave Spain, Belgium is already split joined only by a Court system for resolving differences between French and Dutch speaking territories.

Such is rapidly becoming the case in much of the Southwest, and in southern California the dream of retaking the southwest is fueling some pretty bold politics. Why bother to learn English?

When they gain the right to vote, where will their loyalties lie, with the USA or with Aztlan?

SLars

So there is only a wait for people from 4 countries, the Philippines, Mexico, India and China?

So it is a problem of the demand surpassing the supply in those countries?

PPpatriot

Rather than amnesty for the current illegal invaders, we should be passing comprehensive legal visa reform to greatly accelerate and streamline the process. Of course Mexico's quota would be zero, until all the existing illegals self deported or were legally deported and got back in the legal visa line.

awsomeron

I know that the system has problems, and I am sorry.

It often depends on who you know, what your education status is, and what you can bring to the table. Brain Surgeons before Field Workers.

I am sorry her kids didn’t make it to America (yet) and her process took so long.

We may need to fix that. In the mean time we have Laws and they need to be enforced.

America has been pretty Liberal about letting people in legally. During the Cold War we allowed people to Defect, from places like Russia.

Also Defectors to other Countries have continued on to America.

We have to put a Limit to it and a Cap on it. You must bring something to the Table and you must learn English and adjust and melt in. I do not care who you pray to, or even if you pray. I will fight just as hard for your Freedom From Religion as I will for your Freedom Of Religion. Sometimes Harder.

I am sorry it is so hard to come here, but we can't turn into India. I worked and fought hard for Americas Freedoms, I will enjoy it.

John Pack Lambert of Michigan

Comparing the 10 year wait to stop lights is the most off-base comparison I have read all week.

Personally I think we need to change the laws to allow the bringing of any children who were minors at the time of the initial application to immigrate.

Also, I think we need to end the flaw of limiting the number of people per country. This inherently discriminates against more populous countries. We should allow each individual to come on an equal system and end the system of quotas per country.

As long as we have the latter the rhetoric about obeying the law is empty because it ignores the fact that residents of San Marino have a much better chance of coming here legally than those of Mexico.

John Pack Lambert of Michigan

"We have a U.S. citizen who cannot have his wife here," says state Sen. Luz Robles, D-Salt Lake. "That is an atrocity."

We need a reasonable response. This couple has been married five years. This is no sham marriage to avoid deportation. The stress of the immigration process is leading to some people having mental break downs and increasing divorce rates.

End the madness. Let freedom ring.

John Pack Lambert of Michigan

One issue ignored in the rhetoric about immigration is that a high percentage of illegal immigrants did not come here illegally. Many came here legally on various types of visas, such as H1B, but they lost their job, the visa ran out, or other issues. In many cases when this happens people just stay instead of going back to their country of origin.

John Pack Lambert of Michigan

I know people who if they are driving in Detroit run red lights because they fear for their safety if they do not. I think they are paranoid, but that is what they do.

John Pack Lambert of Michigan

As long as the immigration policies give preferential treatment to the rich, you have to accept that enforcing them is a method of opprssing the poor.

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