Comments about ‘LDS Church repeats call for 'civil discourse' on immigration’

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Published: Sunday, July 18 2010 12:31 a.m. MDT

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JER84119

Wow, Hypocrisy and irony prevail.

As a member of the LDS Church, I am routinely appalled by the behavior, conduct, and attitudes of the majority of members of the church along the "Mormon Corridor" Shame on all of us. Shame on those who are hiding behind the language of the 12th Article of Faith (knowing full well that the Church itself has ignored the 'law' - I refer you back to the polygamy era.) Shame on you who ignore the 13th Article of Faith about "doing good to men".

And finally, shame on you for choosing to follow Glenn Beck instead of the called and ordained Apostles of Jesus Christ.

Far to many of my friends and neighbors have sold their birthright of civil liberties and the teaching of Joesph Smith -- "I teach the people correct principles and let them govern themselves" for the pottage of conservative and tea-party lip-service to "moral" and social issues.

Many of us say America is on the wrong track, and I agree. We've been on the wrong track for many years (accelerated after 9/11) of surrendering our own interests for those of the elite and of big business.

snowman

AlexGomez2: When the pioneers came to Utah there was nothing here but a whole lot of nothing and Indians.

Resident

@ LDS Liberal

"LDS Church repeats call for 'civil discourse' on immigration

==============

Why does the Church need to keep repeating itself?

It would seem some members are choosing to not only just ignore, but to even be Rebelling."


In your opinion, if I choose to support tougher immigration laws, am I a rebel? Is it uncivil for a member of the church to support it? Who is being uncivil?

daizy

Who is Ethan Moller on KSL talk show?! This guy supports illegal immigrants just because he served a mission in Mexico, and because he can speak some very bad Spanish. He is one very mixed up LDS guy and says that we Americans are all illegals. Perhaps he may be illegal in his own mind, but I was born here and very legal with my own SS-card and not someones elses which was stolen. Sheeeesh!

It's time for some adults to reach adulthood.

snowman

1happycamper: I'm sure there is more than one democrat in the church leadership. We are not told what arty we have to be.

Still Jim

Isn't it interesting that people who are proud of their illegal immigrant ancestors are appalled by illegal immigration in the modern era. Yes, boys and girls, if you look in your family tree you will find illegal immigrant ancestors.

Resident

@ JER84119

I understand that there are members of all kinds and yes, there is a lot of hypocrisy.

The church said "Elected individuals have the primary responsibility to find solutions in the best interests of all whose lives will be impacted by their actions."

I understand that not all of those who are illegal are bad people. I understand that they are trying to escape a bad thing and come to a better place. I understand that we need to keep them in mind in dealing with our immigration policy.

I also understand that our economy cannot sustain an open boarder policy. I understand that illegals are taking the jobs of many americans and many of those americans choose not work thus the government provides. I understand that it is the illegals that are making it very difficult for the legal immigrants. I understand that it is a national security issue.

Personally, I think we need to secure our boarders. I think that letting people jump the boarder is wrong. I think that it's a little too tough for those who want to come to America legally. Let's fix it. Is that, in your opinion, wrong?

JER84119

@Resident

I agree that our economy cannot sustain an open border policy, that being said, the wholesale abuse that is being given to immigrants (not just illegals) is inexcusable, period.

I agree that we need to secure our borders; I do not believe that wholesale deportation of 11 million people (some of whom are United States Citizens, or sponsorship eligible relatives, e.g. parents and siblings of US Citizens) is acceptable. I do not believe that we should repeal or ignore the 14th Amendment which provides citizenship to ALL people born in the U.S.

Additionally, I disagree with you on the assertion that illegals are stealing all our jobs. I know few Caucasian citizens who would "lower" themselves to perform the tasks that many illegals willingly perform. Jobs like "field-hand" during harvest, hotel housekeeping, and fast-food cook are considered below the dignity of most "citizens" (unless you're 16)

Additionally, I reject the National Security argument. Too many wrongs have been committed throughout world history in the name of National Security... (the Topaz Mtn. Relocation camp springs to mind immediately) as do places named Dachau, and the GULAG.

zinnia

Re: STILL JIM, Please speak for yourself. My ancestors were pilgrims who came to America and were not breaking laws, I do not find that there were any written laws of that particular time that stopped the inhabits of settlers from the shore lines of Massachusetts. This planet belongs to us all. However, there are rules,regulations AND LAWS where people dwell and live that must be obeyed. Laws keep people from murdering and stealing from one another. Laws keep our country in order.

Resident

@ JER84119

I never said they are stealing ALL our jobs. If you see what I wrote, I said that they are stealing many jobs. What happens when there are many illegals that come in and take lower paying jobs? The people who are jobless continue on the jobless benefits. It's become such a norm that there are "citizens" that would rather take the jobless benefits and let illegals take the lower paying jobs. Otherwise there wouldn't be much of an excuse for many people not to work. Go to the Northern California Carpenters Union (Liberal) and ask them how many carpenters have lost their identity and work due to illegals. I was surprised that they are so open to illegals in their political mindset, yet have so many issues with them as well.

Do you honestly feel that we are completely safe without regulating the borders? Do you honestly feel safe letting drug smugglers into the country so easily? You may reject it, but it does not take away the fact that it is a national security issue. Just because there have been wrongs does not mean there cannot be rights.

LDS Liberal

JER84119 | 9:01 a.m.
JER84119 | 10:48 a.m.

Agreed, and Agreed!

You nailed in both of these comments.

Conservatives who are also absoluteists will never understand that there is balance and compromises in everything.

To them, the world is Black & White.

I see grays, greens, blues, yellows, etc., etc., etc.

I hope and pray they we can find the correct balance to things -- that is the right answer.

A favorite line form Star Wars:
Only a Sith deals in Absolutes.

20/20

I'm so grateful for the new civility in discourse. I feel that I am now safe to advocate enforcement of the law without being called "racist", "immigrant-hater", or "hypocrite".
Oh wait, in just the past few posts, I, and thousands of other law-and-order Utahns, have been called exactly those names by the "civil" advocates of ongoing criminal behaviors.
You have already shown that you don't feel that rules apply to illegals. In your posts, it is evident that you don't feel that civility applies to you either.

Resident

@ LDS Liberal

Honestly... What does that have to do with what he/she said?

Do you ever have anything of substance to add?

Tell me this, how does what I wrote fall under absolutism and not compromising?

Your foolish comments show that your ideas of conservatism are "absolute."

Also, what makes your opinion so "right?" Isn't it, afterall, just your opinion? You seem to be the one on the conservatives case for not wanting to hear out grey shades of the liberal view? Your comments seem hypocritical to me.

wild flower

ummm, after reading these posts I'm assuming there are some illegal LDS in our midst. These people need to "repent" and learn to live the laws of the land.

Cheers!

Brian H.

"It's to facilitate a discussion where all get in the same room and really listen, and hopefully that will inject a lot of thoughtfulness and a lot of respect," Welling said.

"It's a listening exercise," she added. "Most participants will spend two minutes talking and two hours listening."

That would be nice. I would love for people to stop arguing and start making reasonable plans that both parties can accept. Isn't that how we got our Constitution? Seems to me that God ordained the idea of compromise and civility, not just the ideas that came from it.

LDS Liberal

Resident | 2:04 p.m.

Forgive me.

I may have wrongly stereo-typed you in the camp of ultra-Conservatives aka, "Mike Richards" and "RedShirt", who have assured us time and again of their uncompromising "Absolutenest".

Resident

@LDS Liberal

Nope, I don't really consider myself a Republican or Democrat. I consider myself conservative vs. liberal.

I think there are things that are very absolute and things that are not. I think obedience to God is an absolute regardless of what man tells me to do. I believe that God is absolute and unwavering.

I believe that Satan is not. I believe that anything that is not with God is against Him. (I can add sources from scriptures if you'd like)Satan fills the Earth with grey area. We learn it time and time again from church authorities. I believe that a true open mind is one that studies the scriptures and the Prophets and is strictly obedient to what they say.

People say that that is too conservative, but honestly (I'm sure you can attest to this) it is that strict obedience that opens understanding. I think that is why if you search conservative and liberal on the church's website, you will see articles in favor of being conservative and not liberal. You have the agency to think, but the blessings come from conservative obedience.

zoar63

@Brotherhood | 12:46 a.m. July 19, 2010

"I believe in being honest. I also believe that we need to keep in mind that our country was founded on principles of freedom for all and that in scriptures it is stated that God will bring those who should be brought to this land (read in 2 Nephi 1”

You have a point, but it also could be the beginning of the fullfilment of another prophecy. See 3Ne: 14-17

LDS Liberal

Resident | 4:21 p.m.

The only person I recall who taught
All-or-Nothingism
Black & White

was Lucifer - comprehending that all things had their opposites....

Light darkness
Virtue Vice
Health Sickness
Pleasure Pain


I see how someone can get confused,
but don't be decieved.


The world (and the Universe for that matter) in an endless multitude of shades of gray AND a full spectrum light and colors.


I don't believe in absoluteism.

LDS Liberal

Resident | 4:21 p.m.

I think there are things that are very absolute and things that are not. I think obedience to God is an absolute regardless of what man tells me to do. I believe that God is absolute and unwavering

=================


Absoluteism (strict obedience to the law)
makes the entire sacrfice and Atonement completely null, void and in-valid.


I don't believe you.
I can't believe you.
I WON'T believe you.

If you really understand the very reason of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and his Atonement....
You should reconsider your stance.

I am a sinner, but I know about Christ's Atonement for us, and he is EXTREMELY Liberal in my book!

As opposed to your God being so Absolute in everything.

Sad,
I will pray for your better understanding....

~Peace

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