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Comments about ‘LDS Church repeats call for 'civil discourse' on immigration’

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Published: Sunday, July 18 2010 12:31 a.m. MDT

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RobertBennett

Christy | 5:23 p.m. July 17, 2010
How do you 'very politely' deport people?


Too easy. Tell them to get on the freight train themselves or we will help them on OUR way.

the truth

RE: flogger


Ter is BIG difference between mans law's, civil law's,

and GOd's laws, and moral laws,


IE:

you break the speed limit and not jeopardize your eternal salvation,

but committing acts of thievry, killing, and immorality do threaten your salvation.


see the difference?



Render unto ceasar that whihc ceasars,

render unto God that which is God's,



The church's JOB is NOT to deal illegal immgration, but deal with saving your soul


While they may BELIEVE in obeying and sustaining the law,

it is not thier job nor place to enforce it and deal with it,

that is between the state and individual

While Eternal Salvation is bewtween the Church and individual,

and their concern is acts that would affect that.


So it is not suprising they would be asking for civility here, behavior that is appropriate for the children of God.

DocSarvis

Here it comes. The real power in the state, the organization that really makes the rules in Utah is now speaking. What a very civil statement by the brethren who are telling Shurtleff, et al, how they want things. The LDS church will not take a stand against illegal immigration because of their success with converts south of the border. How predictable. Look for more things like this. The feds, the state, and now the LDS church are trying to pat people on the head, tell them "there, there, be good little boys and girls and let us handle the immigration issue. We know what's best for you." When what they really mean is what's best for them.

SamM

I am very pleased by the Church's call for civility. I am equally disheartened by some of the mean spirited comments on this board (particularly by "disgusted"). Certainly we should strive for the rule of law, but this is not the only consideration. There are humans and families involved in this debate.
Some would like to make it as cut and dried as putting bank robbers in jail, but what if we compare it to another instance of law breaking. If those who call for swift and compassionless administering of the law to illegal immigrants were to apply the same standard themselves for speeding, then few if any would still have a drivers license.
The real issue is that the Federal Government has failed us all by making it too difficult to immigrate legally, and too easy to immigrate illegally. In essence, our policy has invited illegal immigrants to escape the problems of their homelands and live here illegitimately. Truly not all of the blame can lie with these people. Our policy tells them to come. So moving forward, I hope that we will all strive for a greater measure of civility.

Osgrath

A fair amount of second-guessing the Brethren going on in this thread. If you feel comfortable with that, so be it. I, on the other hand, do not like negativity, spite and hatred.
Now to the main point: few people on either side of the issue would deny that things won’t change until our southern border becomes secure. Talk of amnesty, work visas or any other plans are nonsense until that happens. First things first: secure the border. Then decide what to do.
Here is another though: how many of those here illegally are contributing members of society, working, buying property, paying taxes, etc., and how many are drains on society? I know of many in the former category and many in the latter. We should not paint them all with the same brush. A person engaged in identity theft should be prosecuted, whether a citizen of the U.S. or not. As for automatic deportation for not having papers, think about that the next time you break the speed limit and don't get caught.

ex missionary

I do have to agree that many of the posts on this issue get ugly. Some are clearly racist. Some seek to scapegoat. Some completely lack any sign of compassion or empathy.

Not everyone displays these characteristics but I'm sickened by those loud few who do.

SoUtBoy25

Ask yourself this question: if you lived in Mexico under the conditions 99% of the people live in with no hope to better yourself or your situation would you come to America too? All of you that had any drive or ambition would jump at the chance to work. If you ask me we have way to many Javert's and Thenardier's in this country. If you want to stop illegal immigration turn your anger to the country that allows it not those who are only trying to find a piece of bread to eat for their families. And remember somewhere way back your ancestors did the very same thing; just now immigrants face stricter laws set by the very people that benefited from the absence of them. This is much different than Prop 8, if you Javert's out there can't see that we've wasted a 200+ years of progress.

VST

Nowhere in the Church's statement did it say anything about NOT obeying and sustaining the law, as enumerated in the 12th Article of Faith. What it did say is that "We repeat our appeal for careful reflection and civil discourse when addressing immigration issues." Many of you need improve upon you reading skills and quit second-guessing what YOU THINK the Church really said.

Schnellerton

Vague. Broad. Fuzzy. Incomplete. Just some words to describe the Church's position. They can't argue for amnesty without alienating the 12th AOF crowd. They can't argue for deportation because of the thousands of illegal immigrant converts in the U.S. The kingdom of God obviously has no borders, but it is a fine line to say breaking one law is okay and breaking another law is not okay.

I happen to be in favor of the free flow of labor and people. That keeps costs down and maximizes freedom. However, more must be done to expel the criminal element that exists, though admittedly overly exaggerated. If a documented worker and his family are law abiding, welcome. If they cross the line, then back they go over the line we call the border.

Christy

You might want to brush up on your social skills Mr. Bennett. That doesn't sound very 'polite' to me.

Deportation Glitch Lady

SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE.

How will the LDS position on immigration reform affect Utah vote on this issue?

John Adams

@ the truth | 5:39 p.m.

"... While they [the Church] may BELIEVE in obeying and sustaining the law, it is not thier job nor place to enforce it and deal with it..."

That's not entirely accurate.

While you and I have to answer the question "are you honest in your dealings with your fellowman" in the affirmative, illegal aliens do not. As a member of a bishopric, I have seen this first hand.


lkball00

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever should believe in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Salvation has nothing to do with the LDS church's "good works".
Our God is not a passive one! Right is right and wrong is wrong. God would not have his people cross a boarder, steal people's identity, smuggle drugs into the country, and not pay taxes, but collect the benefits. Use your brain people. Think for yourself, quit letting the church speak for you!

Galileo

The horror of class stratification, racism, and prejudice is that some people begin to believe that the security of their families and communities depends on the oppression of others, that for some to have good lives there must be others whose lives are truncated and brutal.

nottyou

Put it to a vote and we'll see how much influence the LDS Church has on this issue. A vast majority will vote to deport ANYONE that is here illegally...ANYONE!

dave4197

The problem here is poor people from south of our border are looking to better themselves, and they see us. The problem here is we anglos are extremely selfish with our wealth, heavy on the extremely. The problem here is those neighbors were here before us anglos, but we don't like to talk about that.
Build a fence, I hope Mikhail Gorbachev tells our gov't to tear down that fence, we don't need anything like a Berlin Wall on our border. It's not going to work, it's not working now. Use our wealth and good will to educate and cooperate in business with our friends from around the border, now there's a novel idea. When you separate out the hate, racism, and a few legitimate legalities, and begin to think solutions of a larger problem, maybe we can make headway. Education is a key to a better life. Good wages at work should be the rule, on both sides of the border. The border is a line in the sand, or a quiet meandering river, certainly we US people can better tolerate and help those across it.

John Adams

@ Galileo | 7:01 p.m

The irony is that by not enforcing immigration laws you DO create "class stratification, racism, and prejudice." The laws that applies to the citizens of this country do not, apparently, apply to illegal aliens. Where is the equity in that? How is that just?

Please, explain why demanding our elected officials and police to uphold the laws they took an oath to enforce is bad.

Here's a question I've seen asked on numerous occasions, and NO ONE has answered it: If someone were to break into your home tonight, would you allow them to stay?

Brer Rabbit

Poor Rep. Sandstrom. This deck is really stacked against him. "Invitees range from Rep. Stephen Sandstrom, R-Orem, who looks to push an Arizona-style immigration bill, to Sen. Luz Robles, D-Salt Lake, who opposes it. Others include Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff, Salt Lake City Police Chief Chris Burbank, Salt Lake Chamber of Commerce president and CEO Lane Beattie and officials from the Utah Association of Counties and the Utah League of Cities and Towns."

Anyone that knows the position of these invitees, knows that Sandstrom is the only one that opposes amnesty in this entire group.

As for the LDS Church their concern is a global one on how they will be perceived abroad. Whenever those outside of Utah hear the word, "Utah" they think it means the LDS Church. By they way they aren't far wrong. So the objectives of the Church may not coincide with what is best for Utah or the Nation.

From the high perch of the LDS Church leaders they assume that what they want is best for everyone, even if they have to disregard one of their main principles in the 12th Article of Faith, "...obeying the law."

eagle

The leadership of the LDS church is in a peculiar catch 22. The large majority of the Utah flock (and that of Arizona as well) wants stricter immigration laws, wants to secure the border and a good share of this majority would deport every illegal alien tomorrow if they could. A good degree of this flock applaud "the list" and call those who put it together and publicized it as "heroes" and such.

However, the majority of growth for the LDS church is in Latino countries. Mexico is a bountiful source of new converts. The church has many Spanish speaking missions within our countries borders, teaching of course many illegal aliens.

The church leadership walks that incredibly delicate thin line of alienating one group of saints at the expense of others. Yes, Utah and USA saints are currently the financial lifeblood of the church, provide the majority of the leadership etc., however, the long-term vibrancy and growth of the church is certainly tied with Latin America.

John Adams

@ Brer Rabbit | 7:22 p.m

"From the high perch of the LDS Church leaders they assume that what they want is best for everyone, even if they have to disregard one of their main principles in the 12th Article of Faith, '...obeying the law.'"

If this were true, and I stress "if," would this not create a very real problem for the Church? Are you saying there is standard for the Churcvh and it's leaders and one for the members? If the leaders can pick and choose which laws they will obey, then how can they expect any less from the members? Isn't that corruption?

Are you suggesting that the Restored Gospel will revert back to the beginnings of the Great Apostasy where there were different standards, depending on where you fit in the church's social pecking order?

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