Leaders on both sides of debate say new bill won't force illegals from state
To cynic: You are spot on. To those that believe the "illegals" are
going to pack up and head south, you are not being realistic. They are not
leaving, they have nowhere to go, and doing so would be suicide. What you are creating is an underground that they can survive in quite easily,
considering the alternative is ten times worse. These people have the same
dreams and spirit your grandparents had, it was all about survival. They will
continue to educate their children, (a very good thing considering many were
born here) and utilize your medical. These are good people, better to have some
compassion, and blend them into the fold.
@ defibman | 2:03 p.m. June 28, 2010 @ cynic. Are you a resident of the
state of Utah? If so, then if you don't like what you hear or see, just move
somewhere else! If you are not a resident, then keep your thoughts and opinions
to your own state. I hate to even give you a repeat of your comment
BUT there is nothing stated that limits contributors to Utah residents. In fact
the Deseret News enjoys a broad circulation all around. You are entitled to post
your thoughts on illegal immigrants and suggestions for solving problems BUT it
is not your place to set a exclusive policy for either the Deseret News or the
State of Utah.There are people who may live outside of Utah but have
an interest in what is happing in the state. Some own land in Utah and are
TAXPAYERS, others have family or friends, some may have lived here, some maybe
planning to come. With your attitude some might even be happy if you choose to
be one of those who will leave & you will no longer worry that someone from out
of Utah has an opinion about the article.
Yeah, I hope the Feds do act, like all of you say you want, because when they
do, it will be to grant amnesty to all the illegals!!! Go Feds!!!!
YEA! for Utah ! Join with Arizona. The more of us that make noise the more
likely the Feds will act on something that is their responsibility!!!! I'm all
for immigrants....but it needs to be done legally and orderly. Maybe instead of
comprehensive immigration reform the process to become legalized needs to become
less costly and easier to understand! Then people might become citizens and
care about the US. Reform the process !!!!!
I see Utah'ns respect the law above all else. SO STOP SPEEDING!
Mexico is such a failed state, we should just march our troops down there, clean
up the country and the cartels, and then give it back with a reformed system of
government. Mexico has the resources to be very successful and can't be because
of crime and bribes. We can't let that happen to the US but unfortunately with
their culture integrating the US that is exactly what's happenning. Do we want
to save the US or allow it to become like Mexico.
not_scared,I'm glad you agree with conservatives on the need for a secure
border. 1200 troops are not enough. BO did that as a publicity stunt; and I do
believe the level of personnel on the border has fluctuated greatly since 9/11.
there were upwards of 10,000 national guardsmen on the border at one time - 1200
is a pittance in comparison. Reagan later admitted amnesty was a
mistake, perhaps the largest of his administration.I don't disagree
with some type of guest-worker program. I just feel it wrong to reward those
who came here illegally with amnesty, nor is it fair to those waiting in their
home countries for the legal process to work. We could set up some type of
legal residency for most of the 12 million already here (along with a stiff fine
or 'processing fee'), but NEVER citizenship. You want citizenship, come here
legally in the first palce.
I believe that we should protect our borders. I favor e-verify. I also see that
free market demand for labor bring this workers here. This is why, I see we need
a guess worker program to provide labor to put food on our tables.Frankly, conservative logic is questionable. I see conservative solutions like
three strikes costing billions. I saw the Enron loop hole they created. I saw
the S&L bailouts to fix problems created by the conservative Reagan
administration.Why are illegals in Arizona?Because the
fence moved them to Arizona. The fence was a conservative solution. I read a comment that Obama should close our border. He added 1200 troops and
four drones to the seven fold increase of personnel assigned to the border since
9/11. Conservatives haven't supported any positive step, they merely do what
they do best and whine.
It's so amazing. As I pointed out there are two standards for illegality in
Utah. I'm stuck by this contradiction. Any reasonable person should
be able to expostulate to check for validity. When you take science you learn
that the best way to prove something is right try to prove it wrong. You hear that Obama in pandering to trade unions. If this is fact, you can
extrapolate that because unions want to keep wages up and jobs plentiful any
policies that bring in cheap labor would risk losing union support. We have Fox News and talk radio talking out of bother sides of their mouths.
They link Obama to unions. They try to leap from unions to Marxism. Then, they
claim Obama is pushing immigration policy that would make him a pariah with
organized labor. If the teamsters had power, there would have been no illegal
workers.Whose was the last to grant Amnesty? It was Reagan. Then you read. You learn deportations are up. There is in less illegal
immigration. The republican government was caught lying, saying most illegals
smuggled drugs. records from the border patrol prove otherwise.Who
are you going to believe?
If current immigration is making you feel like you’re being encroached
upon, undermined, displaced, and culturally heterogenized then you need to
research the plight of the American Indians as an extreme incase example.
Unfortunately might makes right, not the passing of laws. Whoever is left
standing when the dust settles will be vindicated — is it fair? No.
Immigration has little if anything to do with laws but it is almost entirely
related to economics. The colonization of U.S-America, though often attributed
to religious persecution, was purely economic, and while it proved to be
beneficial to the “colonist” err immigrant, the native population
was severely displaced. Since the late 18th century there have been close to 750
land cessions between the U.S. government and Indian tribes. To account for the
large number cessions we need to recognize that following a given treaty, there
was nearly always an immediate breach by European immigrants/U.S. government.
Were the treaties legal? Yes. Where they enforced? No. Now that might seem like
a story from a galaxy far, far away, but on a large scale it was very recent,
and its effects are abundantly apparent — especially here in Utah.
Last night on the news a politician (from Utah County I believe) answered
brilliantly to the question "will you sit down with the illegals to discuss your
bill?"; his answer was right to the point, no - they are not part of whom I'm
represent; furthermore, they are not part of this discussion because they have
not come here by proper channels. When will everyone get it, sad as the stories
might be, nothing can start with a crime. Go back and fix the part that makes
you a lawbreaker and then maybe we can talk. There are thousands waiting to come
here legally, why should the ones who broke the law be treated better, both
stories are just as compelling.
Geneina | 12:47 "(E-Verify can only be used to check new hires)."That is actually, incorrect. In preparation for SB-281, our company started
using E-Verify for new hires and then started reviewing existing employees. The employees that E-Verify flagged were notified to contact Social
Security, etc. to address the issues. The majority were name mismatches for
those that got married and didn't update the name change with Social
Security.There were 5 individuals that just didn't return to work.
No notice, nothing - just didn't show up to work anymore. The implication is
that they were actually here illegally and had given false information when they
were originally hired.
@defibman: Thank you for proving my point. Can't stomach a little opposition?
Everyone has to agree with you or move out? Thanks for that little bit of
MEXICO IS A FAILED STATE, if not, it is teetering on the verge of failure with
this morning's murder of the leading candidate for Governor of Tamaulipas State
bordering Texas. All it may take is for Pres. Calderon to order more troops to
the border, and a military coup may occur.Whether Obama will
recognize a military junta is left to be seen. What will be seen is a massive
influx of Mexican families joining those already fleeing this dying country.America's insatiable addiction to illegal narcotics, will bring it more
illegal immigrants by the hundreds of thousands.
@ cynic. Are you a resident of the state of Utah? If so, then if you don't like
what you hear or see, just move somewhere else! If you are not a resident, then
keep your thoughts and opinions to your own state.
If there was a way to package and sell a "holier-than-thou" attitude, Utah would
be the wealthiest state in the union.
dansimp,there can be no comprehensive reform without securing the border,
and BO refuses to do so, as shrub and slick willey before him refused to do. If
you beleive Kyl, BO is holding a secure border hostage to try to broker a deal
to give illegals citizenship. While I might be convinced to find some path to
legal residency for most of the otherwise semi-honest illegals, NEVER
citizenship if they came first illegally.
@cuscoln - When I am caught speeding and issued a citation I don't ask for
amnesty for all speeders, I don't ask that speed limit laws be repealed to be
more "humane". I pay the ticket and live with the consequences of speeding (
Higher insurance rates etc... )
Ethel: Thank you for proving my point so well. The fact that you equate
amnesty and immigration reform with a path to citizenship with watering down the
Constitution is a great illustration of the misunderstandings. This has nothing
to do with the Constitution. The Constitution doesn't care if we are harsh, or
easy on our immigration rules. Making entry easy, affordable, and possible so
that those who want to come here to work are actually able to do it, and those
that are here are able to become legal, does not undermine the Constitution.It always looks powerful when you invoke the Constitution, but please
make sure you are referencing the supreme law of the land, and not your opinion
on how immigration should be. We can hold different opinions on what should be
done in regards to immigration reform, but your hard line stance is no more
constitutional than my more open, easy, and affordable path to citizenship.Though mine does coincide more closely with the Statue of Liberty. (not
actual legal foundation, but a wonderful poem on what I think our Country has
and should stand for).
Mr. Ruiz how will they "live from welfare" when we are told they can't receive
it? It's not perfect, but it's good enough. Federal jobs require it
now. Maybe this coming year they will add penalties, since a law without fines
or jail relies to much on public backlash.
I know the solution! I know the solution! IMMIGRATION REFORM! DUH!
Utahns write with great sanctimony about the law as they elected people like
Mike Noel who publicly violated federal law along with leaders of Kane County.
"E-verify can't pick up newly created ID's."An ID must have what is
called an unique identifier such as driver's license number. If a database is
queried using two ID's it's real easy to compare the name on a social security
card with the name on a license. If the SSN was randomly used, the odds of the
SSN and the name matching are very poor.
Pretty much all the legislation passed in Utah up to this point has been "look
like you're doing something, while ACTUALLY doing nothing" legislation.Businesses who contribute heavily to conservative candidates enjoy the
monetary savings by employing illegals at slave labor rates. I
suspect if THIS YEARS' legislative agenda doesn't include something VERY SIMILAR
to Arizona's laws, a lot of Utah legislators will be voted out of office. Chris Cannon didn't think illegal immigration was important, neither did
When is the LDS church, and specifically the Deseret News going to realize that
Law & Order is not just a TV show? I'm so sick of both of them cramming this
"compassion" thing down my throat with a little sugar sweetener. The law is the
law. Most Utahns side with tougher laws, and you keep trying to make us feel bad
about it. Shame on you.
Hmm Ethel ... interesting you should mention speeding. What part of illegal
speeding do most drivers not understand. Why do we not have zero tolerance on
speeders? If you go 46 in a 45, you are breaking the law. Why do police and
photo-enforcement gear not bother with a ticket until you are going 10 mph over?
The law is the law. Think of all the additional revenue that could be generated
and all the dangerous speeders that could be taken off the road.
I often wonder if U.S citizens, (I say U.S Citizens not American, because Mexico
is part of North America just as much as the United States.) ever stop to think
what these immigrants give up to come here. Leaving familes, memories, what
little things they do have...they leave to get a better life. At least majority
of them do. Most, actually have expectations to return with a little bit of
wealth for their families. However they're left with disappointment since they
work hard doing cleaning jobs, (which as a U.S citizen myself, I would much
rather they have that job than me; I don't want to have to clean toilets or
dishes all day) for only enough income to support themselves in the states
leaving them with nothing to send home. Most don't recognize that they send
money home to help their families pay for food, medicine, clothing, bare
necessities. Things that most in those countries (immigrants come from all over
the world not just Mexico, majority are from Mexico but not all) they would have
to save for months just to afford. People don't recognize that some come to
dansimp: The point is why change OUR laws to accommodate their
illlegal-ness by amnesty? It is a duhhhh buddy about making laws. You missed my
point. I am all for upholding the CONSTITUTION not breaking it down,
nor watering it down to say it is outdated in any way, shape or form. My apology if that was misunderstood. Thank you. Again, what
part of illegal immigration is not clear here?
dansimp: The point is why change OUR laws to accommodate their illlegal-ness by
amnesty? It is a duhhhh buddy about making laws. You missed my point.
I am all for upholding the CONSTITUTION not breaking it down, nor watering
it down to say it is outdated in any way shape or form. We need to
look ahead to see what candidates have the backbone to stand up and defend the
Constitution the way it was intended. It is hanging by a thread (again) by the
way. We have allowed it to be trampled on like our flag is at times. History is also being watered down and hidden from the true patriots. It is
time to wake up from the slumber that lulls everyone to sleep for this all to
happen right before our (sleepy) eyes.
RE: David B.Oh please, it isn't the Obama administration (he has
been in office for only 1 1/2 years and dealing with slews of other problems).
How about the 8 years of the previous administration? But, please don't let the
facts get in the way, no matter what good the President does you'll find a way
to blame him.The reason most illegal immigrants are here is for
JOBS. You take away their ability to get jobs and you'll see a whole lotta
people leaving. E-verify law needs teeth. I like what Arizona did... The
business death penalty. First time you are found knowling hiring an illegal
imigrant a hefty fine, the second time? You lose your business license. And it
should apply to all business, no matter the size. E-verify isn't perfect, but
it is a start.
I long for the day when we can look a an issue honestly and humility with out so
much self righteousness. We are not looking at all the issues. We base out laws
on slogans and talk radio hosts who make between 18 and 33 million + dollars a
year how to think
Anybody notice how this problem is passed down to the people to deal with and
when the beaurocrats don't like what we're doing then they step in and put the
kybosh on it!The Job belongs to the Federal Gov't.But the current adminstration
fails to act because of an agenda they have.That's why Arizona did what they did
and other staes are starting to follow!Now the the Gov't has their shorts in a
bunch because we are doing what they should be doing.Well Washington you can't
have your cake and eat it too!As far as Utah is concerned(and others)need to
develope a complete tamper free I.D. card and if you provide it for possible
employment no job and possible deportation.
There are many valid arguments against illegal immigration, but why does the Des
News seek out the head of the Utah Minutemen for a quote? He is an extreme (on
his web site he stills espouses the Birther Theory about Obama) who rarely
speaks facts on the issues about immigration.Seeking out Eli Cawley
for a quote on immigration is like seeking out Elmer Fudd for a quote on Second
Amendment rights simply because he hunts "wabbits."
Or, we could take a deep breath, and a step back, then come at the issue with a
compassionate eye to fixing the actual problems. If your problem is not paying
taxes, stealing ids, burdening systems without paying into them, lets create a
path to legal status and fix the actual problems. Someone with access to legal
status has no need for a stolen id. The more strict the id laws, without an
outlet to legal status, the more expensive you make illegal id's, you don't end
identity theft, just put more money into the pockets of those that run the id
theft rings.To Ethel: we change our laws all the time, thats how
our country is, and frankly I am proud of the fact that we specifically don't
base what we do on what other countries domestic policies are, we are the United
States, we are different.
Put some teeth into it, strengthen the law. Employers have already figured out
how to get around the law; they just form multiple companies and limit the
employees in each company to less than 15--that way, the law does not apply to
them. The odd thing to me is that clearly the majority of illegals
are hired by companies with less than 15 employees anyway, small landscaping
companies, small contractors--why would the state not want this to apply to
At least this is a step in the right direction. But, if an employer knowingly
hires an illegal alien he or she should go to prison for 10 years per
occurrence. The problem would be resolved in 30 days. Illegal aliens who can't
find work will walk home just like they got here. A law should be passed that
will eliminate the ridiculous "Anchor baby" bologna.
What part if ILLEGAL do illegal immigrants not understand? This is a law that
should have been taken more seriously before now. If one gets a speeding
ticket, it is because they broke the law and could be arrested. That is the risk
they choose to take when they come in undocumented to stay legally. This
E-verify should have been in place all along. It is not a racist issue either,
it is illegal immigration. They are still breaking the law. I
think the U.S. needs to be a lot more vigilant to screen them when these people
come INTO the country, not wait until after they are here and by then it is too
late. If we kept better track of them, and make them report or be accountable
while they are here, maybe they would be less likely to be so sneaky to get in
and stay. Amnesty is not the answer either. Since when do WE have
to change our laws to suit them. Other countries would not put up with that.
Why should the U.S. have to do anything to accommodate their illegal activity?
E-verify can't pick up newly created ID's, it takes time for them to become
known to the system. That is the problem with just enforcing business
compliance. We need the self deportation laws that Arizona has adopted. I think having your company name missing from a website that shows
compliance will hurt some business. I know if given the choice, I will shop at
companies that use the system. Sometimes the market place is the best tool.
Roger Tsai fails to mention that many of the illegal aliens who were working for
companies that were raided were hired before the companies adopted E-Verify.
(E-Verify can only be used to check new hires).Juan Manuel Ruiz,
president of the Latin American Chamber of Commerce, said that will make stolen
IDs "worth a premium to those who have no choice but to [commit felonies] to
stay and be able to work." So, Mr. Ruiz admits that illegal aliens
commit felonies to get jobs. (It is a felony in Utah to use another person's
social security number just as it is to use the person's entire identity - name,
date of birth, social security number).If employers do use E-Verify,
it will preclude the vast majority of illegal aliens from getting jobs because
full identity theft is so much more difficult than social security number only
fraud which 75% of illegal aliens currently commit.Finally, SB251
will end 100% of all illegal alien driven child ID theft which impacts over
50,000 Utah children.Ask the businesses you frequent if they are
using E-Verify. If not, take your business elsewhere.
Just do the right thing, people. When we justify our actions against any law,
that's where the problem occurs. This stupid problem we are having is because
of people disregard to this law. FREAKING JUST OBEY THE LAW, for crying out
The sky is falling, the sky is falling!! We heard these same cries a year ago
when SB-81 went into effect. None of the bad things happened then, and they
won't now. In addition 85 percent of cities/towns simply ignored the law, as did
half of the counties, and a third of the school districts. If the
illegal alien enablers think that SB-251 is a problem, there will be real laws
with real teeth passed in the 2011 legislative session.This law goes
into effect Thursday. If anyone sees the sky falling, please report it.
It may not be perfect, but it's chipping away at the big problem of illegal
immigration. The bottom line is; we need immigration for a stronger economy in
the future. We don't illegal immigration in any way, shape, or form.