Can Deseret News point out what its rationale for this article is? Immigration
is a political issue. The system should be adjusted. Illegals are here
illegally. Until the law is changed, American society has a choice of 1) giving
assistance to people who knowingly violated the law or 2) enforcing its laws. It
makes little difference to me whether the law is enforced by Arizona or the
feds. The locals do seem to have more of a vested interest in the issue.
Do like the Israelis do, fine the employers a stiff fee and put the new illegals
(and those that overstay their visa) in detention.
Many of America's print media publications are now facing well deserved
financial extinction due to their penchant for bias, censorship, and promotions
of unpopular political positions, rather than reporting facts. No issue
illustrates their heavy bias more than illegal immigration.
God corrects the child in whom He delights, so those who break the law should be
given correction that fits the crime - deportation.
Jan Brewer for president.
It concerns me that we make a joke of our legal system. If a guest ignores the
law should citizens also have the right to similarly pick and choose which
statutes they find are too bothersome? Once it is deemed moral for the
impoverished to cross a border without a passport, could not the same arguments
be used for the poor to not report earned income or even file a 1040 form? What is the effect of mass illegal immigration on impoverished U.S.
citizens? When 10 million to 15 million aliens are here illegally, where is the
leverage for the American working poor to bargain with employers? If it is
deemed ethical to grant in-state tuition discounts to illegal-immigrant
students, is it equally ethical to charge three times as much for out-of-state,
financially needy American students. What other country affords illegals
entitlements? What are we to tell the legal immigrant from Southern
Mexico who got a green card at some cost and trouble, or who, once legally in
the United States, went through the lengthy and expensive process of acquiring
citizenship? Was he foolish to follow our laws?
I read the title of this article and thought, "Wow, finally a piece of true
journalism." But after 1/4 the way through, I found so many holes in your
arguments, that I just gave up. Same ole' same ole'.Why
doesn't anyone have faith in the facts? Why is journalism used so to further
personal agendas? People can decide for themselves. People, set out
to find the facts through credible sources. Stop forwarding junk. Forward
quality, confirm-able emails. Then we don't have to rely on this junk filled,
poor excuse for journalism. I think tonight, I'll mourn the hope
I had of ever reading true journalism in any newspaper. Sad.
This article is from JUNE and yet it still links to the home page.Methinks
it is a bit stale.But it is the LDS Inc stock-in-trade. Can't we all just
get along...and ignore the reality of the impact of trespassers?
What bothers me about this report is the fact that you are ignoring the word
ILLEGAL....I don't care if it is one sex crime, or one drug killing, when they
are illegal one is too much especially if it involves the taking of life of a
U.S. Citizen. You wouldn't get away with that in Mexico.
More liberally biased "journalism" trying to make people justify criminal
Yet another liberally biased article that shows favor towards criminals who
sneaked into our country illegally. One has only to see the words "undocumented
immigrant" or "undocumented worker" in an article like this to tell you that
it's overwhelmingly liberally biased. The article states that
illegals do pay sales taxes. Yeah, duh, I think that's a pretty obvious point.
Yet, the glaring ommission here is where the article fails to say how much MORE
illegal mexicans use in government entitlements (eg: WIC, welfare, school,
health care in ER's and everything else under the sun for their anchor babies)
than they pay into the system. When are you libs in the media going to
understand that we, the people, aren't buying this garbage anymore?
Isn't it interesting that the media seems to only have one primary perspective
on this issue? There wouldn't be such a thing as media bias, would there? The
powers making money off of illegals and legal immigration, through the
suppression of wages, etc., obviously have found soul-mates with those who
promote open-borders for political purposes.
This is a impressive article filled with a great many percentages, which are
matched against what total number. If there are two million people in prison how
many of these prisoner illegal immgrants. I would belive you if your article put
a number of illegal rather then a percentage.When you talk about
illegal immigration, you must look at the illegal immigant as a person who has
commited a felony by illegally entering or stay in our country country. Then
you have to say one hundred percent of illegal immigrants are commiting a
criminal act against the the citizens of this great United States. When you use a percentage you misleade the readers of the article. Use a
total number for each catgory inthe article, paints a more realist picture of
the illegal immigration picture.
Utah:I was told that Utah's gang problem would be like California
within eight years.If this is true, is this what you want?
Sorry jjc16, that was not the way the comparison was couched. They were not
measuring the percentage of the various strata that committed crimes, rather of
those that committed crimes, what percentage came from which stratum. Ergo, totally different question leading to a totally diffent inference.
You may argue either way to support or be against the Arizona law, but isn't it
a break from proper legal procedure for the federal judge to hear the case? As
I understand it, this court should only have been heard by the US Supreme
Court.In the Constitution, Article 3, Section 2 reads:"In all
cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls, and those in
which a state shall be party, the supreme Court shall have original
jurisdiction. In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall
have appellate Jurisdiction."In other words, the judge in the
Arizona case had absolutely no constitutional jurisdiction over the matter upon
which she ruled. As the constitution makes abundantly clear, only the U.S.
Supreme Court can issue rulings that involve a state.This seems so
simple. Is there something I am missing here? I would enjoy additional
comments from others on this. I am surprised not to here more on this topic.
Congratulations on writing a cogent, evidence-based article on an emotional
subject. I am particularly impressed that you also cited relevant comparison
groups. For example, the Consortium for Police Leadership in Equity study,
compared the 27% drug crime and 26% violent crime rate to the 28% prevalence
rate of all Latinos in Salt Lake City’s population. This indicates that
in Salt Lake City, the hypothesis that the Hispanic illegals are causing a
disproportional amount of crime is false. Everyday citizens assume
that “Washington” does not listen to them when
“Washington” does not does not allocate massive resources every time
a loud group of citizens claims there is a problem. In reality, the policy
establishment has to choose between which each of our many national priorities
needs to be addressed. When citizens demand decisions that are contrary to the
best available empirical evidence, “Washington” is put into the
uncomfortable position of having to decide between miss-allocating scarce
taxpayer resources to appease interest groups or allocating scarce resources to
solve real problems.Since the hard empirical evidence shows that
undocumented person crime is no higher than local crime, then scarce resources
are better allocated to solving our real problems.
It is sad to see the number of people who would rather base decisions on rumors
and myths than solid evidence. Is some of the evidence biased? Maybe. But
it's more solid than just grabbing numbers out of thin air. At least this
article cites its sources so readers can choose to look up the data themselves.
As for those posters who claim "illegal is illegal," they broke the
law getting here so they are criminals," and those types of comments, it would
be interesting to find out how many of them have had a speeding or parking
ticket in the past five or ten years. Or how many of them have sped, parked
illegally, jaywalked, or committed other minor offenses, but were simply never
ticketed? They've broken the law, too. Shall we send the police out to arrest
them? The article didn't write the definitive story. But it's a
much better starting point than most of the garbage that gets passed around or
posted on worldnetdaily. Incidentally, I like the new monitoring. A
lot of hate still present, but not as much as before. Thank you, Des News.
One other comment that may or may not get posted: Who are the writers calling
"white," as if it's a bad word or some kind of disease? Who's White anymore
these days? Not many of any of us. We are all a little bit something other
than lily white. So who are all these Whites and where do they live? How did
anyone poll all these Whites anyway?
A funny sidebar on this is DN in parallel to this story also has a story
entitled "Book reveals truth about Obamacare". Now, do you think this was an
objective review of the book? Hardly. And yet conservatives see one article
that doesn't match the dialog they have created around health care and they
scream the DN has become a tool of the liberal media. Talk about things
becoming hyper emotional. Balanced discussion has become a complete
impossibility with some of these people.
So conservatives can fact check when they don't like what is reported, but it
seems they lack that skill completely when they see something they like. I
know, it is human nature, but the rants on this page about how liberal the
Deseret News has become just shows how far extreme right some people have
become. Some of Utah has slide so far right that kids sharing crayons in school
would be socialistic now days.I am suer there are issues with these
numbers since many are derived and not direct. I think if you just take a step
back and look at the overall message, it should just be a warning to both sides
that not all numbers you read or hear from wither side should be taken at face
value. The article wasn't not justifying illegals, but rather just
trying to ratchet down the radical rhetoric a bit. Evidently the fact that
illegals are not the source of all of Utah's ills is quit disturbing to some.
The article left out murders in Salt Lake City. From numbers obtained by KSL
through Chief Burbank on May 3rd, for the past three years. (2006, 2007, 2008).
White non Hispanic's committed 16%, Hispanic's 40%, Polynesian 19%, African
American 22%, Native American, 3%.He is hoping next time you
question a larger demographic, and not use the obviously slanted numbers of
Chief Burbank. cc
"Salt Lake City Police Chief Chris Burbank has suggested looking at prison
populations to figure how many criminals are undocumented aliens."This would of been a great start to the articles, as it dealt with hard facts,
not picking and choosing with studies to believe. You contact the state and get
the prision population for a particular day. Then break down the numbers.
Another media outlet in town did the same thing, the first of August 2009. They
found that the known (some had not had citizenship checked) illegal population
under the state department of corrects was, 341. 254 were from Mexico, one from
Europe, four from North America, 6 from South America, seven from Africa, 30
from Asiz, and 37% from South America. Types of crimes? 43% sex
offenders, 19% murder, drugs and alchohol 15%, personal crime 11%, property
crime 6%, other 6%.
We are not idiots and it is not just white as you so called us (putting us as a
race). It is legal Hispanics, Legal Germans, Legal Citizens period that have a
problem with Illegal, Illegal, Illegal. The is nothing wrong with legal
immigrants there is so much wrong with Illegal Immigrants and if you noticed I
did not mention a race like you did in this article. Your propaganda will not
work. We have you pegged. You can say it like you want it, call it what you want
and treat us like we are dumb. It won't work with the US citizen anymore no
matter what the race. As Citizens of this country there is no race got it? We
are American Citizens.
Why is the racist mob so afraid of the truth? Why are they so blind and want to
stay that way? Why is your prejudice more important than the facts?Why is
being right (although you're not) more important than being happy?
Now I remember why I will not pay this paper for a subscription. This article is
a bunch of crap. All this so called reporter has to do is go to the jail
and count the number of illegals there-it will be about 25 to 30%. Come on down
to Provo and talk to the cops-it takes $20 to 30K a year to cover in up the
graffiti on all the buildings. All tax money to jails and paint. Why do we let
this go on? What has to happen to make people see what is coming? Drugs, gangs
and prostitution. Why are U.S. Citizens putting up with this?????
Illegal. Job killing, welfare assistant killing, tax on the middle class,
schooling for our children (horrible), crime, drugs and just plain cheating the
system. What is there to like about illegal immigration? The only ones I know
who like it are our Construction Companies, roofing companies, cement companies,
food franchise companies, maid service companies, retail stores, restaurants and
janitorial services. This is ironic because all we hear is doing the jobs
American's won't do? That is lie and a farse. My son works construction, laid
off and the illegal next is working. My teenager would like to work at a burger
joint for extra money. Job taken. Illegal immigration is punishment to the
middle class of america for the gain of Corporate America.
@maximum: I'm not sure what school you learned statistics in, but 27% of the
population committing 28% of the crimes is exactly what one would expect
statistically. If it was 5% of the population committing 95%
of the crimes, that would be an anomaly. Ergo, illegal immigrants
and Hispanics aren't responsible for a disproportionate number of the crimes
committed in this state.
Oh no, the racists on the site are sooooo mad!!! They want to hate the illegal
immigrants, but the hard facts and data just won't let them. How dare the facts
get in the way of immigrant bashing!
RE: celtics77I agree. Is this an issue of illegal immigration or is
it an issue of color? I am very opposed to illegal immigration. However, I think
legal immigration should be easier. I had a friend in Peru (mission) who had a
master's degree in engineering. He had been waiting on a residency visa for 7
years. Perhaps we selectively enforce immigration to keep our social
status the way it is. Americans get the good jobs, illegal immigrants can come
take the jobs we don't want. However, we don't have room in this country for
educated people who might take away jobs we want to keep for "our kind."I think the problem lies in the seeming paradox of policy and
enforcement. We discourage people from coming legally yet we blatantly ignore
those who come illegally.
Some interesting observations on this article. Twenty-seven percent
of crimes are by Hispanics yet they only 28% of the population is Hispanic.
Sounds like a disproportionate number of crimes are from Hispanics.I
wonder if all of the fake/stolen social security numbers used to pay income
taxes are included in these crimes?
re: Dumbo123 There's nothing more factual than an eye-witness account. I
hope people will read what you wrote and will see that you aren't calling names
but just stating facts. It seems obvious to me already what is happening to
Utah. Watching the news day by day, almost every single crime in WVC has a
connection with an illegal alien.
Myth: Immigrants will cause massive, unnecessary population growth in the United
States.FACT: As the baby boomer generation begins to
retire and the U.S. fertility rate declines, it will be necessary to replace our
aging workforce with immigrants to maintain economic growth.
Myth: Immigrants take jobs from Americans.FACT: Immigrants
create new jobs, and complement the skills of the U.S. native workforce.
Reggie,How in the world can you classify my opinion on illegal
immigration. Do you just assume, because I am against hate, I'm for illegal
immigration? If so, you are mistaken my friend. I believe that we need to have
reasonable immigration laws that are strongly enforced. But all the
hate spewed here proves that most of the posters did not read the article.
Either that, or they have severe reading comprehension problems, because many of
the posts had no relation to what was printed. Media talking points were
regurgitated even when they had been proven in error. Hating
everyone and everything is wonderful. It isn't Christian and it doesn't align
with the tenants of most major religions, but it is evidently allowed and
encouraged in Utah. I find it saddening because I never learned to hate like
Sorry to ruin the fun, but I've done a lot of research on immigration (not like
reading the paper, watching tv, or armchair philosophizing, I mean actual
academic research for a university). This article is the best non-academic
summary of what is *actually* going on when it comes to immigration. You can
blame them for using biased sources if you want, but no truly objective observer
can argue with me when I say that their sources (liberal as they may be) are
more accurate than most of the sources thrown around. I know you people in Utah
hate it when the liberals are right, but this might not be your battle. It's
easy to articulate anti-illegal-immigrant rhetoric that seems logical, but
incredibly difficult to support it with empirical data. The data don't agree
with you, and I know which I trust more. Public opinion has been wrong more than
once. I don't know where we'll end up in 20 years on the immigration issue, but
I'd rather not allow the frightened public voice to outweigh fact and reason.
Obama will tear down the borders like Regan did the Berlin wall.This
what America wanted when they voted for Obama.
@Celtics77: I'm amazed that there aren't more Hispanic voices like yours. I
don't think this is a race issue, it's about law and order. We can't open our
borders to Africa, Bosnia, Russia, the islands and Mexico and NOT have some
serious problems. It so happens that for Mexicans, they have the easiest way to
get here. It's not fair for those who are trying to get in legally. The legal
Hispanic community should be outraged at what the illegals are doing to them.
@David Jay and others: you hide behind compassion. Where is the
fairness of your "open arms" manifesto. Law and order buddy. Law and order.
The number of posters who didn't read the article is interesting. Evidently
their preconceived ideas can't be challenged.This is one of the
better pieces I've seen on this issue. It was well thought out, intelligently
presented and shows how hard it is to get at the truth. Kudos to the authors
and the DN. It is a shame that our education system and religious
institutions have failed to teach several generations to use logic and reason
before arriving at an opinion. Let the hate continue here in the
When I look at the world, I see some countries that contribute to the world as a
whole - in technology, medicine, or some other worthwhile way. To just focus on
Mexico, what is coming out of there other than illegal aliens? Well? Any Nobel
Prize winners? All I see is "give me, give me, give me." Someone posted here
that they would like to see Americans and Canadians immigrating to Mexico so
there would be a balance. Funny. I wouldn't even vacation in Mexico is I were
paid to go. What would the chances be that I could come back without being
robbed or shot? How many murders have taken place there in just the past 2
days? One of them a politician, and one a nationally known singer. If they
weren't safe, who would be? When crime is so strongly linked to one nationality
(read the papers, watch the news), why should any American want to see more
immigrants from that country come here? And ILLEGAL on top of it.
Thanks DN for an impressive article! It was one of the better pieces I have
read on this issue.
So what you are saying there is no reliable source of information on this.
Thanks for the information. There was an important part of immigration (legal
or illegal) that you did not cover, though. Language. I think one of reasons
that many have prejudice against Hispanics is that they do not speak English.
Sure it takes some time to learn, but if you came to America to enjoy our
freedom, opportunities, and lifestyle, please learn our language so you will
truly be seen as American.
Illegal immigration of US citizens is not tolerated in Mexico, yet, they expect
to do it here and get away with it. They still think they own the US. Our weak
President Obama fears the hispanic voters. Well, he will get a WAKE UP CALL if
his malfeasance in office persists in the next two elections.Vote
him out and all his leberal friends with him. His agenda is Marxist.
I would really like to hear what people think of my scenerio. My family
immigrated to the USA from a South American country to Eastern US early 90s. My
father studied in the US as a international student in the 70s, and applied for
and obtained his residency.He left the US for what he thought was for good.
Thirty years later with USA college degree and fluent english he found it hard
to make in our home country. He decided to come the US not knowing if his
residency was still valid. We came to the USA on tourist visas. One of the
first things my father did was check to see if his Residency was valid, which it
was. He applied for citizenship years later, and then applied for the rest of
us. This meant we were here undocumented (illegal) for about 6 years while
everything was processed. I know we paid thousands of dollars in fines. I didnt
find this out until I was a teenager and went to take our interview. At times I
feel like a hypocrite for the views I hold, but me coming to the states was not
in my control.
As a hispanic I am very conservative regarding illegal immigration. I
believe it is wrong and agaisnt the law, regardless of why people choose to
enter the United States illegaly. It's illegal and that can't be argued. The
issue I have is I often question weather people are really against illegal
immigration, or if they are agaisnt immigration as whole. At times I feel that
that people are agianst hispanics. Comments such as "we need to stop the
brownizing our our country", "Mexicans try to impose their culture, and can't
assimilate"... and many more along those lines.
Wow. I was momentarily (only momentarily) surprised at all the hate from those
(behind pseudonyms) who claim to be more expert on the subject of immigration
than the authors of this article. / What needs to be addressed is the corruption
and complicity between governments. Another problem comes from the use of drugs
by U.S. citizens. Have we not learned anything about building walls between
peoples? Flag Wavers seem to think they are superior to immigrants because they
happened to be born in the U.S. / I'm 72, an ex-Mormon, grad of BYU and grew up
in that racist, sexist, us-and-them, better-dead-than-red family. When I pierced
my ears, my father said it was "barbaric, just like those greezy Mexican girls".
The mentality continues. // Jean Clelland-Morin
Shocking that so many people (apparently) believe that the truth is limited to
their own beliefs. Thousands fled the colonies from the red-flaggers,
leaving all id behind, and crossed into the US 'sin papeles'. We embraced them.
It is inconsistent to have different rules for others. Not to fear.
Truth will prevail. Shouting something does not make it true.
Thanks for the article. I wish we could all talk together and look at the issue
from the big picture perspective. These are real people, good people on the
whole. They make many contributions. We are doing our country a real disservice
by not looking at a comprehensive solution to this problem.
I appreciate the Deseret News taking a critical look at numbers we hear on this
issue. I was an ESL teacher at a High School in the Salt Lake valley and as such
worked closely with the 5% hispanic population.I don't have direct numbers but
from speaking with my students I would estimate that less than 10% of them were
undocumented. One student in particular really broke my heart. She was a
straight A student and would not be able to attend college after graduation
because of her undocumented status. Our country will lose a significant
contributer because of the decions her parents made. The decision to leave was
made for her she never had the chance to make the decision for herself. If we
account for undocumented children that NEVER DECIDED to enter illegally the
numbers of law breakers drops dramatically.I understand that our laws should be
enforced but we need to be pragmatic and compassionate as we look at this
situation. Thank you DN for pointing out what I already knew the numbers we are
dealing with are not as high as we think.
The US has only limited immigration for 90 years of its 234 year history except
for a few clearly racist laws aimed at Asians. The problems with large numbers
of illegals started shortly after the laws came into effect.The law
enforcement statistics for the cities and counties of southern Arizona have
shown a decline in violent crime over the last decade.I just love
the "I can't hear you! You can't confuse me with facts!" reactions. It does Utah
proud. Where did these commenters learn this? Did you not learn these reactions
indicate a serious cognitive problem in school?Oh, wait, Utah is
dead last in per pupil spending in schools. Never mind.
I wish everyone could watch video of just one week from the Arizona border. You
would see home being broken into, illegals stealing, illegals KILLING when
confronted by the homeowner or rancher, drugs being traded, 24 illegals being
crammed in one vehicle, all of this in temperatures of 110 to 120 degrees which
makes it even worse for tempers, etc., etc., etc.. The borders MUST be shut
down excpet for LEGAL crossing! I wish these reporters were forced to live on
the border in a tent and watch all of this!
So I was driving the other day and a cop pulled me over. My eyes were bloodshot
and my car smelled like marijuana. Do you know what the cop did?! He searched my
car and arrested me for possession of illegal drugs! Can you believe this! We
need to band together and fight this kind of injustice! Can you imagine living
in a country where you get punished for doing something illegal! Preposterous!
"wrz | 11:33 p.m. June 27, 2010 True, and the penalty for speeding is a
ticket and a fine. The penalty for being in this country without authority is
deportation."Great comparison, but why don't you go all the way.
First time speeding ticket can be remedied. Those who are in the us without
authority have remedies as well.Without authority is a broad
subject. If you become implicated in a crime you did not commit, you lose
immigration status. You are now in the US without authority. If the backlog of
files waiting at USCIS is the reason your file got misplaced and are now facing
deportation because your file seemingly never made it to USCIS, you are in the
US without authority. Just a speeding driver can negotiate his
status, so can the immigrant present in the US "without authority".
Is this the John Pack Lambert of Michigan show?There should be a
limit on how many posts a single person can post, just as there should be a
limit on the number of immigrants from other countries.But we can't
limit what we can't control. If unknown numbers of immigrants are entering the
country illegally, we cannot limit how many enter the country.
This is the best story the newspaper has produced in year. Nobody does this kind
of thing these days.
Due to the fact that Russians are rarely suspected as being illegal immigrants
but some assume any Mexican is, the percentage of Latinos processed in the
courts likely exceeds the actual percentage of Latinos among undocumented
immigrants in Utah.
"Taking jobs" is a false notion. There is not a fixed number of jobs.
Here in Michigan most of those who create jobs are immigrants. Entrepeneurs
start up new companies and create new jobs all the time.
Rep. King's letter is disturbing for another reason beyond the fact that it
uses totally false statistics.It is written in a way to make it seem
that undocumented immigrants are killing "us Americans". However, some
percentage of traffic fatalities from drunk driving involve a drunk driver
crashing into a tree and dieing. Such deaths are tragic. However
they do not indicate that undocumented immigrants pose a threat to others.
Realistically we should exclude one-car collision deaths of the driver from the
stat.Re-reading the stats it should be emphasized that the study
said nothing about how many of these deaths involved drunk driving.
The WorldNetDaily article, at least in the line quoted does not support
Representative King's claim. "Without a Valid License" clearly includes revoked
and suspended licenses. Even people who drive with no license at
all are not neccesarily illegal immigrants or immigrants of any type. There was
a case recently involving a women who was born in Detroit who was involved in an
accident in Ohio in which at least one of her children was killed. She not only
did not have a license, she had never had a driver's license, although she had
had a state revocation of her drivers license due to various stops for drunk
driving and other traffic violations in the past.Also, it should be
noted that the study referenced does not even say that these are caused by
people without valid drivers licenses. From the wording it could be someone
driving down the street who lacks a valid drivers license and gets hit head-on
by a drunk who has a valid license swerving across the median line.
ST, Your comment "if you don't like the law, than try to change it"
seems a little odd in this context. Since people justify the denial of civil
rights inherent in the Arizona law by saying it is a major crime wave we are
dealing with and related things, it makes sense to seek to inform public policy
with real statistics.I do object to the articles statement about
"misconceptions that white people have". Some of the most virulent
anti-immigrant voices come from African-Americans firmly entrenched in inner
cities, and in some cases even more so from African-Americans who have managed
to move out of the slums.A common claim is "if the illegal
immigrants were black they would not be tolerated". This ignores the fact that
a large percentage of immigrants from countries such as Ivory Cost and Senegal
in New York City and Washington DC are here in violation of immigration rules.
Most of them came here on tourist or student visas and just stayed after they
expired, so it is slightly different than the situation of those who never had a
visa, but essentially the same.
What would you do? Try putting yourself in the situation "illegals" find
themselves. Any of us will do what we have to do to survive and best care for
our families. If you have hate, fear, or disgust for Hispanics it's because you
have no positive personal connection. Do you have an Hispanic friend? It
doesn't matter if this friend is a legal citizen or not because because many
folks just lump them together. I have spent a life time trying to understand
the Hispanic culture. If we are trying to place blame where it belongs let us
first blame the very corrupt Mexican government for making their county less
desirable than the US. Next let us blame the US economy that encourages illegal
immigration. Let's not place all the blame on human beings who, for the most
part, are hard working, family oriented people. Why do they break the law? Why
do you break the speed limit? Is it because laws that are very difficult to
enforce are the ones that are most likely to be broken? Fear and hate will
never replace an honest effort to UNDERSTAND.
If people are surprised by the Deseret News advocating treating our fellow
sons and daughters or God as such and not as pieces of trash to be sent back to
where they happened to be born (or in cases of some children, where their
parents were born and they never have been) than they clearly do not listen to
General Conference enough.
A lot of these statistics claim that it is impossible to distinguish illegal
from legal immigrants. But when hospitals and schools and other government
agencies provide services, they generally are required by law to provide
translation services in order to NOT discriminate illegally against people on
the basis of national origin and ethnicity. therefore, bimply by keeping track
of the number of cases in which translation services were supplied, we would
have an approximate surrogate for the number of illegal aliens being served.
While some legal immigrants are not fluent in English, some illegal immigrants
undoubtedly are fluent, so there should be a rough comparability between lack of
english fluency and illegal immigrant status. Since translation services (often
rendered using a telephone link to a commercial translation service) cost money,
those costs have to be tracked, so hospitals and other service providers should
have readily accessible data on the number of persons needing Spanish
translation in connection with a public service. Before the Utah Legislature
adopts Arizona's law, it should collect this real data first.
You have done what seems to be a pretty good job of "exploding the myths" by
telling us what is NOT fact. How abut some research into what IS fact (and it
is not just the flip side of NOT fact.)Investigative reporters
investigate. The numbers that this article came up with are just as soft as the
ones they are designed to rebut.So, how about the following: Send
reporters (maybe even hispanic ones - do you have any of those?) to the streets
and corners where hispanics hang out looking for work, and find out from them
how many are illegal? Do similar interviews in emergency rooms. Do similar
interviews at the prison. Do similar in the schools. Then publish your raw
data as well as your interpretation of the dataBetter numbers are
needed.Or, pass the law and see what happens. It can always be
repealed if it doesn't turn up many illegals.
Excellent research-based reporting by some of Des News’ top & most
credible writers. Thank you for interjecting a dose of data & sanity into the
extremist allegations that have been promulgated by a range of hucksters
including racist whites, Tea Partiers, some Utah legislators, & others who fear
to keep America’s promise engraved on the Statue of Liberty: "Give me your
tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched
refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I
lift my lamp beside the golden door." The America I love, as did Ronald
Reagan, was to be “a shining city on a hill,” as he put it in his
farewell address to the nation. He declared our America to be “a tall
proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, wind-swept, God-blessed, &
teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony & peace, a city with free
ports that hummed with commerce & creativity, & if there had to be city walls,
the walls had doors & the doors were open to anyone with the will & the heart to
get here. That's how I saw it, & see it still.”
Bunch of bunk... Anyone can get numbers to fit what they want! Who is behind
the group that did the study is what I want to know.. Ties to someone I am
sure... Illegal is illegal.
This whole article is fiction. And that's a fact....
If the population of the USA is 305,000,000 and 12,000,000 of them are illegals,
that means illegals make up nearly 4% of the population. And since they have
made it clear by their very presence that they don't believe in obeying laws, I
think it is safe to assume that they commit at least 4% of rapes, robberies,
murders, assaults, etc. I really don't think we need that much additional crime.
The idea that the illegals are paying income taxes and social security taxes is
ludicrous. Do you honestly think they are going to file a tax return without a
social security number? Do you think the unscrupulous thugs who knowingly hire
them are going to forward withholding taxes (or their matching portion) using
social security numbers they know are false? And the illegals pay very little
property tax because very few of them own property other than motor vehicles.
The only taxes they pay fairly are sales taxes.....
If illegal immigration is such a wonderful thing, why doesn't every country
This article is a complete and total waste of space. Illegals do commit crimes.
They do evade taxes. They do take jobs from Americans. They do absorb billions
of dollars in government services. They do send billions of dollars out of the
country to the folks back home. They do deal drugs. The do commit identity
theft. They do commit rapes, murders, robberies and assaults. They do routinely
commit offenses that would land citizens in trouble, if not jail. And none of it
could or would be happening if they weren't here illegally. Case closed. Send
Thanks for a great article. Regardless of how, when or who does a study (even
scientific), there are always those that refute and discredit the data. When
our ideologies screen our perceptions, then we already "know" what is true even
before we see facts!Your study confirms what other studies have
shown for the last decade. You are to be commended. Here in Utah,
where far-right ideology rules, we will never overcome the predjudice and hate
toward Hispanics. A very loud and hateful minority seem to sway the elected
officials in their lawmaking.It is a sad tale of a people that
should be a light unto the world of love. I believe it is a quiet majority here
that do in fact love and want our Mexican and Hispanic friends to stay.
"The mere fact that it's easier to enter illegally from Mexico than from Darfur
should not be an advantage for the pathway to a better life." Some
genius said that a long ways up.Do you still agree if we make a
minor change: "The mere fact that it's easier to live in the U.S. if you're
born here should not be an advantage for the pathway to a better life"?
You can use statistic to prove anything you want if you start with the end in
mind. Perfect example, man-made global warming. I can prove a correlation
between peanut butter and cancer. Doesn't make the stats accurate.100% of the illegals are a crime. That is the only statistic the article
didn't quote. They are not undocumented--they are here illegally.I
wish they would have also looked into the movement among many of these illegals
about rebellion and forcefully taking back what they think is their sovereign
right--now that would have been a worthwhile article--not this dribble they
I refuse to accept the facts presented in this article because none of them
'feel' like the truth. I just don't get a sense of 'truthiness'.
Nobody's_Fool--great post. I wonder how many different means, such as the
Noriega rule, the illegals receive funding from the taxpayers? I never heard of
the Noriega rule but it doesn't surprise me. How many of our own kids who
attend out of state colleges would love to be able to pay in-state tuition?We ought to be noting and listing what we learn from each other on this
board regarding illegals receiving state and federal funding.
What I am seeing here is an attempt to cast some light on the urban legends
connected with illegal residents. Of course it is not "balanced", the other,
misleading side of the question is already out there. These are the answer which
show they are misleading or groundless. One doesn't balance fallacy with truth,
one replaces fallacy with truth. We should all be biased toward truth. That is
not a 'liberal' position, that is a rational position.If you still
oppose the de facto immigration status in the nation after you remove these
myths from your thinking, so be it. But don't build your conclusions on a
foundation of sand.A number of the comment also indicate a great
deal of reliance on 'zero sum' logic: that there is a limited amount of work,
care or wealth which must be divided between us all. This is really strange
coming from those that have adopted the gospel of capitalist growth which
asserts that innovation always brings growth and that growth is good. You can't
have it both ways, either we grow and prosper together or your work ethic is
based in a lie. Please choose only one.
The reporters got some facts right but failed to draw all of the correct
conclusions.For example, the reporters correctly pointed out that
the Social Security Administration has estimated about three-quarters of illegal
workers have taxes for Social Security and Medicare taken out of their
paychecks. The reporters' conclusion is that these illegal aliens
pay taxes and help prop up the struggling Social Security system. This is
correct but another equally valid conclusion is that illegal aliens commit major
felonies in order to get jobs.In order to pay Social Security and
Medicare taxes, illegal aliens have to have Social Security numbers (SSN) but
because they are illegally in the U.S. they cannot legally obtain an SSN.
Therefore, they fraudulently obtain SSNs and this is a felony. When
they use the fraudulently obtained SSNs to get jobs, they falsify their I-9
forms. That is perjury and another felony. If the illegally
obtained SSNs they are using belong to Americans, under Utah law that is also a
felony. Thus, the most important conclusion is that a minimum of
75% of illegal aliens are committing major felonies. These are crimes, not
simple civil infractions.
On the other hand... those of us who are educated, can see patterns, are smart
and have vision... perceive the growth curve, identify future needs, grab an
opportunity and capitalize on the statistics presented here! Leave behind the
mediocrity of those pesimistic loosers who are not only close minded have their
already narrow view obscured by a scarcity mentality.Send your kids to
learn a second language: Chinese, Spanish, etc. Have them become immigration
lawyers, have them learn from other cultures, send them abroad and allow them to
see the world thorugh a different set of "lenses", different from the typical
and sad set we are used to here in Utah. I promisse you that your kids will
thank you and you'll be grateful to know they are not having to compete for the
"fry guy" at the local hamburger joint.
Hey byronbca, what party do O'reilly and Beck claim to be a member of? Since you
are so sure of the fact that they spread propaganda I'm sure your spending a
good amount of your time getting the facts straight. Posting information as fact
that is so obviously false will only make you look about as ignorant as one
Milwaukee County Board Supervisor who wants to join in the boycott of Arizona,
because after all, they don't even boarder Mexico.
Easternobserver: wow! You have hit the nail right on the head!"If we
weren't lazy and choosy there would be no jobs for illegal immigrants" that is
sooo right! Everyone, just think about it: if an employer could hire a legal
worker to do what it needs who would do it with a great attitude, a smile and a
thankfull heart as many immigrants (even those documented) do then why in heck
would they risk hiring an undocumented worker?And if most jobs taken by
undocumented workers are the low skilled/low paid ones...shame on the parents of
those unemployed for allowing their kids to become ignorant, unskilled, mediocre
bums who have to fight for the crums against people who ovbiously have more
heart, passion and spirit.Those of you who are sending your kids to school
to become janitors, landscapers and dishwashers be concerned and write negative
comments to your heart's content. You and your children have very reason to be
afraid and to feel doubtful about your future.
wjalden wants the D-News to treat it's readers with respect. That means 'stick
with the Fox News talking points! And don't try to confuse us legals with
Wow, Scooter, after reading this, I cannot believe that there are still this
many myopic racists in this country. The DN staff took common "myths,"
statement I read all the time from posters citing the harm done by illegals and
then tried to support/verify them. In most cases, they were proven to be
fictious. The "illegal immigration" problem is a bogus issue used to fragment
the country and lead us to ruin. Illegals are not ruining this country.
Racism, ignorance, and a refusal to view reality as it really is are the things
ruining this country. What if we rewrite the laws to allow guest workers,
streamline the system, make them legal, have them pay taxes, and just get on
WOW!After reading this, I am wondering about journalism & where it
has gone!When you are debunking a 'Myth/Internet Rumor' you should
get more than one source, thus trying to eliminate 'Biased Evidence', then you
should actually state if it is 'Fact or Fiction', not leave it at 'Well, since
they did not collect/ask if they were leagal, we really can't tell.'If I use your method of analysis: In my family there are 20 people (10 male,
10 female). 2 of them are drug users, 4 are overweight & 3 have a handicap. So
statistically, 10% of the population are drug users, but we can't break it down
by gender because we did not ask, but we will say they're male, because I had
Chief 'So-N-So' tell me that males commonly are that way & he sould know!This article did not prove or disprove any myth, it just added more
'Grey Area' to the cloud!By the way, check out what the poster in
the middle of the picture states: "Que Viva La Raza!!" ... Gee, I wonder what
'Race' they mean? ... The human race?
@Moderate 1:18 a.m.:"Living in this country undocumented is a civil
offense, just as driving faster than the speed limit is a civil offense.
Neither are criminal offenses."True, and the penalty for speeding is
a ticket and a fine. The penalty for being in this country without authority is
deportation."That is how the law sees it. If you don't like the law,
change it, or move to another country."We like it just fine. And
what else we would like from the federal government is to enforce the law on the
@yomero - even better than my own opinion which you seem to think is so biased,
The Dallas Morning News reported that over 12,000 illegal, undocumented & non-US
citizens were able to pay in-state tuition in Texas & receive FEDERAL tuition
assistance, under the Noriega rule, that is paid for out of my own personal tax
dollars, that seems pretty biased when illegals are compensated for breaking the
law when someone who plays by the rules isn't allowed the same help.
@yomero - No it doesn't prove they are US citizens. Just another example of how
several families will group together in one home, illegally using the address to
enroll their children, thereby illegally obtaining benefits they & their
children have no right to claim. It's been all over the local media here in El
Paso, so don't accuse me of being biased for speaking the truth regarding the
impact illegals have on everyday, law-abiding citizens.
Reality is foreign to Utah.
You can always find a statistic that will prove your point. You can always leave
out the ones that are contrary.
I'm sure many of you mean well and may even be religious. I hope you'll listen
to your religious leaders and take a step back, take a deep breath...and err on
the side of mercy and compassion. The problem, in my opinion, is the INS and our
ridiculous immigration laws. I have worked to get a student here legally.
Working with the INS was embarrassing to me as a citizen. I was treated like an
animal and my student was treat worse. We need to overhaul the laws and the
enforcement and make it easy for the law-abiding workers to get here and
impossible for those who are criminals (other than coming her illegally) to
come, to stay, or to ever return. If any of you hard liners were desperate to
feed your families and your only two choices were to pay 10K and wait 10 years
(you have neither time nor money) or swim the river. my guess is you'd swim the
river...in a NY minute. Let's focus on changing laws...that will help.
Great Article Deseret News.The sad thing is,even with the
"FACTS" in full light, there will be those who will continue to believe and
accept myths over reality.These people are more accurately called,
"Racist Bigots".Again, Great Article!!!Keep up the good
I wonder how many of these posters that claim this article is propagandistic are
regular listeners of conservative talk radio. Guys like Limbaugh, O’reily,
Beck and Savage are professional propagandists and they will never report news
unfiltered. News from media members that claim an allegiance to a party or a
cause will always have a spin on it. The Myth on illegals and
education dollars was actually confirmed. Next these posters are
going to try and say that the articles on the oil spill are just left wing
environmentalist’s propaganda attacks.News that challenges
your beliefs is not called propaganda, it’s called responsible journalism.
LOL. How dare that liberal Deseret News publish facts that dispute my bigoted
Interesting article. And it hit just when Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer's claim that
most illegal aliens are drug mules was being contested by Sen. John McCain,
D-Ariz. Me thinks there's a lot of misinformation out there. This is a first
shot at trying to clean up the disinformation. Just because you don't like the
conclusions, if you're anti-illegal immigrant with a passion, doesn't change the
facts. If these facts are carefully documented, and they appear to be, it should
cause thinking people to step back a bit and consider what's going on here.
Another fact that anti-immigration conservatives won't admit is that the vast
US/Mexico border is far more secure and better managed today than it ever has
been (even in Arizona). Is it 100% secure? No, and logistically and
realistically it never will be. But for the chorus of conservatives/tea
partiers/states rights activists and comment posters who refuse to even consider
comprehensive immigration reform until "the wall is built and illegal crossings
are zero", you have just moved the immigration goal posts out of the stadium.
And what have you gained? Nice job D-News. Your article shows the
need for pragmatism based in reality, vs. rhetoric based on fear and xenophobia.
It is clear that not enough systems and procedures exist for the collection of
accurate data on illegal residents. Political cowardice on this topic is
pervasive among the governmental bureaucracy, beginning with our elected
officials. They won't stand up to La Raza, etc., and require such actions
because they have grown fearful of negative PR (from pro-illegal groups) and
attacks the of the complicit media. Even honest efforts to collect and report
data accurately are not accurate because the percentage of illegals successfully
using fraudulent identification is not known.
At least the article and the posts make obvious the real nature of the
complaint. The statistics tie immigration status to hispanic ethnicity. And,
the majority of the "anti-immigrant" posts directly attack Mexicans or poor
verbal English skills. Though, they don't seem to be equally concerned about
poor written English skills. I think this makes it clear that the
Arizona arguement that they're not really going after Hispanics, just
"illegals", is disingenuous double-speak.
*** "I have to give them credit for one heck of a spin job. Based on this
article we should start paying Mexico $50K for each illegal they give us...since
they're so beneficial to America." ***Indeed. Bottom line is, you
don't make a 21st Century, high-tech economy richer by importing millions of
largely uneducated and illiterate (often in their own language as well as ours)
people from a Third World nation. Those who feel this is the proper way to go
about it should relocate themselves to Mexico or El Salvador rather than trying
to relocate all of Mexico and El Salvador here.We have spent the
last 5 decades or more - since Sputnik, at least - obsessing about how far
behind we are falling in terms of educating our students; that we don't have
enough SKILLED workers. Now we hear that the US doesn't have enough UNSKILLED
workers.Well, which is it? Too many unskilled, or not enough? How
can it be both? Because let's face it - the US is far, far behind most developed
countries in terms of the educational attainment of its labor force.
Thank you for showing the facts on the issue. I think a lot of people feel
threatened by this article because it exposes their bias and racism. Thank you
for taking a stand to protect the under represented.
I have to give them credit for one heck of a spin job. Based on this article we
should start paying Mexico $50K for each illegal they give us...since they're so
beneficial to America.
Dear Cats: why do you feel that The Sensible Middle's comment is irrelevant? Do
you see American Indians and their plights as irrelevant? Do you understand
European-Americans' laws as the only ones worth keeping? Or did the comment's
implication that almost all of us are, in fact, illegal aliens make you feel
uncomfortable?As far as I can tell, The Sensible Middle has it spot
on: the main reason for our aggressive reaction to Latino immigrants is
selfishness, not some sort of moral outrage about "illegality."
The main thing this article shows is that both the press and the American
government are strangely uncurious about the illegal immigration problem and its
costs and effects.The extrapolations, juxtapositions, and just plain
SWAGs engaged in by DN writers, in their attempt to convince us the problem is
not bad enough to worry about plainly show that, while the problem is readily
visible and easily studied, no investigative agency really wants to knows its
actual extent.Can you imagine either the government or the news
media being similarly uncurious about the cause and effects of the Gulf oil
spill? The Red Butte Creek spill? The Bernie Madoff ponzi scheme? Sarah
Palin's speaker fees?Both your editorial bias and your institutional
laziness are clearly apparent in this article.
Congradulations DN, by commiting journalizm that happens to dispel myths about
one subject you are now part of the left wing media, drive by media and the
lamestream media.The only problem you are going to have with that is
having attacked the right wing belief system with facts.
Even if Illegal immigrants commit crime at about the same rate as citizens as
the article suggests what does that mean? Should we ignore the border and not
worry too much about who comes across? Maybe there are myths about illegal
immigration, but at some point "we the people" need to solve the problem. I
would suggest securing our borders more. Let the military handle it if need be.
Is it a crazy idea to think about securing the border? How much money do we
want to throw at the problem. You can decide, but I would suggest that on
grounds of national security we ought to be doing a much better job. Once the
border is more secure then we can debate about all the side issues. It is too
easy to slip in the country and our enemies can or may have already taken
advantage of this.
I'm not sure what makes this paper angrier: the people who are opposed to
illegal immigration, or the fact that it's been so completely ineffectual in
getting its readers to go along.This paper runs editorials, columns,
letters and barely-concealed press releases masquerding as journalism every
week, at least. And yet two years ago Utah voters turned out cheap labor
advocate Chris Cannon, and denied his fellow-traveller David Ure a promotion to
the state senate. This year we threw out cheap labor advocates Ben Ferry, Steven
Mascaro, and Bob Bennett, the latter of which it referred to as an 'act of
anger.' Several other cheap labor incumbents, including Lori Fowlke, didn't even
bother running for re-election, as they knew they would lose.The
Deseret News seriously refuses to address the valid objections of Utahns to
illegal immigration, and repeatedly fails, in its advocacy for "comprehensive
immigration reform," to discuss methods of enforcement that it finds acceptable
for dealing with illegal immigration. Perhaps if it wants its
readers to listen it should treat them with respect, which it increasingly fails
Gee, whaddaya know? The Deseret Spews shilling for the open borders industry.
What a shock.Honestly, do you guys really think your readers really
buy the propaganda, paid for, I'm sure, by the real estate/construction ads in
the paper and by Mormon bigwigs with a financial stake in cheap labor, like the
Marriotts, Holdings, and Ivorys?Remember when this paper argued that
this country needed illegal immigrants because they were driving the HOUSING
BOOM that was driving the economy?I sure do.How about
facts such as these: California, about 27% of it population immigrant, is now
dead last in the nation in terms of education, with 1 in 6 members of its adult
population lacking even a high school diploma.Our nation has done
marvelously well under the era of Clinton/Bush/Obama mass uncontrolled
immigration: financial collapse, soaring income disparity, soaring state and
federal budget deficits, and declining educational attainment.
I find it quite disturbing that among the DMC companies, there is unquestioned
support for illegal immigration. Among reporters there is NO dissenting
opinion.NOT ONE.There are only three issues on which no
dissention is allowed within DMC: gambling, polygamy, and illegal
immigration.You can present all the data you want, but the rest of
us are aware of the fact that unbridled illegal immigration will not benefit
this country, but bring it to its knees.These people did not respect
our laws when they entered and you don't want certain laws upheld. That attitude
leads to anarchy and chaos.In your short-sighted, self-serving view
you can pontificate that this is compassion. But how is it compassion towards
those who have worked to gain entrance legally--usually at great expense,
especially those who respect law according to their religious views? How is it
compassion when our living expenses and taxes are substantially increased to
cover illegals? How is it compassion when our freedom and liberty are tossed out
(through lawlessness, increased tax burdens, etc.)?Compassion? The
correct word is Disdain.
Hmmm, are we likely to receive more factual information from government studies
and those studies done by various focus groups, or are we likely to receive more
factual information from real people who really live in the areas which have
really been impacted by the illegals?
Any percentage of crimes, sex offenses, overcrowding of public schools, and
general lawlessness by any person(s) in a country illegally is too much.
"A just-completed study seems to refute that and show how wrong perceptions by
whites can be." I love how people get away with reverse
discrimination all the time. If there's a problem, blame it on "whites". It's
not like there are not other ethnic groups who came here "legally" and want to
enforce the laws of the land. This is a typical liberal move... blame
everything on "white" people and then you will get what you want.
I look at my fourth grade class (and my peer teachers') and can verify all
claims made by this article to be the truth. I have some Hispanic kids and they
represent these averages in who performs excellently, who gets in trouble(as
much on average as the white kids) and including the reasons they get in trouble
(these are people, not statistics). I have Hispanic kids who do excellently and
I have those who struggle and everyone in between in a perfect "norm" curve and
they are doing even better than the rest of the class if you consider that they
are adapting from second language(s) and low income(teachers' lack of skill is
visibly and research-wise the reason that they don't progress as fast.) HAVE
YOU READ THE RESEARCH? HAVE YOU RESEARCHED THE RESEARCHER AND THEIR
DISCLAIMANT'S ARGUMENTS? I know from reading research that researches research
in this way and people in general (you?) don't read research and they usually
only read commentary, research or reviews that favor what they think is right
already. Do not trust ANY research that holds as it's premise that you cannot
consider opposing arguments.
This is from the baston of liberalism, Texas." The immigration
debate has become more heated in 2006. Congressional hearings were held across
the U.S. to discuss the impact of undocumented immigrants on the economy and the
culture. At the same time, two distinctly different pieces of legislation were
voted out of the U.S. House and Senate.The Comptroller’s
office estimates the absence of the estimated 1.4 million undocumented
immigrants in Texas in fiscal 2005 would have been a loss to our Gross State
Product of $17.7 billion. Also, the Comptroller’s office estimates that
state revenues collected from undocumented immigrants exceed what the state
spent on services, with the difference being $424.7 million"
"Why is anything that goes against conservative talking points labeled
'biased'."It's the way Fox News and talk radio programs their
victims. It is their tool to lie. Any real facts like the study done by the very
conservative state of Texas can be ignored by blowing them off as being
biased.What's amazing. Who owns this biased source? Would most these
same conservatives in Utah say at their local ward they lie to them?
Hey D News, I've got a stat for you.100% of all illegal aliens are
breaking the law!Dispute that!
What sweetness of a reporting is this? With so much bunk news on legals-illegals
as they are called, it has been hard even for a God fearing person to obtain one
answer to a prayer. There has just been too much bombardment with
all kinds of garbage about the statistics of those who do this and that or the
other in Utah.This article sends a clear message to fools like me
who have been making unsubstantiated statements about illegal legals or vice
versa to shut up. In the abscense of competing stats, this report
should keep many crazy anti-latino/immigrant remarks at bay!
Who could ever question the data gathered from internet sources such as spam
e-mail and "pass-this-on-to-your-loved-ones" chain mail? Everybody know you can
absolutely bank on that info. (I hope your sarcasm detectors have gone off!)Just wait until everybody gets home from church and watch these comments
REALLY kick into gear.
Dear Sensible Middle: Thank you for a completely irrelevant comment.
I find it amazing that reporters have given us facts and commentors (only some
of course) get horribly emotional about the data and draw all kinds of
conclusions about the reporters because facts are different from how they
perceive the world.This is one of the most conservative newspapers
in existence and because readers disagree with the facts researched and
presented, they figure something must be wrong with the messenger.
Thank you so much for this balanced and reasonable article, showing the sources
of information used to examine this problem. Certainly the United States has an
illegal immigrant problem that needs to be dealt with. But your article
illustrates that certain issues have been exaggerated in effort to score
political points. Let's all acknowledge that a reasonable solution needs to be
established by our national government, working with state governments -
especially the border states but also all other states who have illegal
immigrants - and that everyone needs to work together in a bipartisan, fair
minded approach void of hyperbolic claims and with honest intent of resolving
this issue in the fairest, most balanced way possible.
Good job Des News!I was pleased to read the article followed up with
documented sources. We need more of this type of journalism these days.Certainly this article will upset a large vocal subset of your
readership, but that is also good. There is no problem so large or bad that it
can't be talked and reasoned about.In today’s troubled time,
folks are uncertain, financially hurting, or unemployed. It makes sense that
they look for a cause to these problems. Undocumented aliens and the government
happen to the easy targets. In the past, as someone previously mentioned it
was other minorities.Utah and the US is rapidly going thru a
demographics change. We are no longer the majority Caucasian country we were 50
or 60 years ago. And we won’t ever be again. Folks need to get used to
Nothing like having facts blow away every conservative complaint about illegals.
But being conservatives they will still stick to their beliefs and convince
themsleves they are right now matter what reality is.
Arizona, I'm with you!!!
I live in Southern California and would like to share with the people in Utah
what Illegal immigration has done to this state. We are overwhelmed with Illegal
Immigrants. They are everywhere and their presence has caused a situation which
impacts everyone here. Our schools are severely overcrowded and the quality of
education has dropped dramatically. Crime committed by Illegals including
carjackings, identity theft, hit and run, drug trafficking, murder and assault
has increased tremendously. Gang violence is at critical mass and law
enforcement is ineffective in dealing with the problem. People who are working
in the construction trades and the service sector have seen their wages plummet
and businesses who employ U.S. citizens suffer while those who employ Illegals
prosper. I hope that Utah doesn't become like California because we are in
hopeless economic and social decline. I love Utah with its wonderful parks,
schools and excellent infrastructure. Illegal Immigration will rob the tax
revenues from the citizens of Utah and drain your ability to maintain the
quality lifestyle you have worked so hard to have. Don't listen to open border
fanatics. Most of them receive personal gain from illegal immigration. Be
"We cannot lose sight of that we are talking about human beings that need to be
treated with respect," Bush told the group, adding, "Massive deportation of
human beings is not going to work."As he has before, Bush tried to
temper his call for tough enforcement."You can be a nation of law
and a compassionate nation at the same time," he said.
This is a really great article. I love it when people get mad at reporters for
publishing facts that they don’t believe.A reporter’s
and newspaper’s job is to is to investigate and report, not appease its
readers.Sorry this article goes against your prejudice beliefs WATCH
DOG, but I’m sure there are plenty of ultra conservative forms of media
that are more than willing to continue to serve you your cool-aid.
Here is my statistic. 7 out of 10 times that I am behind a person in line at
the grocery store who cannot speak English, they pull out a WIC card to pay for
I personally don't give any credence that our government tells us any more.
However--I do believe what I see with my own eyes and what my family, friends
and previous co-workers tell me? In my state the schools are overcrowded to the
max and should have a Mexican flag flying. My child's schools according to
demographics is 82% Hispanic. Went to the emergency room with ex-spouse and the
reception area was inundated with screaming children and people--who couldn't
speak a word of English? It's a fact that Anchor Baby" children get instant
citizenship and parents can get free pre-natal care and a low income housing.
Then the whole family moves in--legal or illegal.
Very little in the way of myths are dispelled in this article. Time after time
the answer given is that we really just don't know or that it really could be
argued either way. I see little in the way of substantiated facts from unbiased
sources. If anything the article creates more questions than it answers.While I appreciate the effort I wonder how much effort was actually made in
this article, the constant jumping from nationally based data to local doesn't
leave the impression that alot was made. How about more data related to crime,
healthcare and identity theft from border states?Wow, Christine, I
wonder where you stand on illegal immigration? If you were so interested in the
truth why disparage the characters of others by making ridiculously false claims
about their motives? You really weakened any point you were trying to make.
Very sneaky way to TRY to prove a point. Delete the negative portions of the
extremely biased study and use only the stats that seem to prove your liberal
side...which in this case is to use stats that are at least 4 years old and most
are 6 - 10 years old.Peel the onion and look to see the underlying
danger here: Chris Burbank has a very personal and politically dangerous agenda
that will reveal his complete contempt for anybody but himself and subsequently
be damaging to the citizenship of SLC. Give California a call and see the
amount of hospitals that are closed. See the Illegal immigrant crime in Phoenix
and L.A....oh wait those stats weren't used in this article and study because
they are on the wrong side of the liberal's agenda...and are too damaging. Several years ago those cities took the same "no harm done" stance and
now they are unable to recover without dramatic shifts and problems and/or they
will not recover but destroy the basis of their society.Word to the
wise...don't trust that weasel Burbank. Ignore the lies of this article and
Rarely have I heard or seen a more slanted article, especially one designed to
solicit sympathy for illegal aliens.Here are just a few "facts" that
were not mentioned.1) Rep. Margaret Dayton's legislative audit of a
few years ago, stating that illegal alien school children likely are costing our
state taxpayers as much as $85 per year. No matter how many illegals that
amounts to, it still is a huge cost to our taxpayers.2) Every ESL
child in our schools costs the citizen children in their class, to say nothing
about the cost to the taxpayers in this country. We have an obligation to our
citizens who have been raised speaking English to give them the best education
we possibly can. Taking time away from them to deal with an ESL child is time
lost for our own.3) No matter one's position on immigration in
general, the citizens in this country have an absolute right to say who comes -
and who cannot. That is a right that NO ONE has the right to compromise.4) Then, it should go without saying that we ALL should be expected to
honor our laws. Illegals DO NOT!
Why is anything that goes against conservative talking points labeled
Good article! I'm glad some one is looking for the TRUTH! I can tell a lot of
time and effort went into this research to find the facts and the truth. It seems that some deceiving Utah politicians (Sandstrom, Herod, Wimmer,
etc) can't even do elementary school statistics. They should come out of the
closet and acknowledge that they really are nazis and put forth their real
It's interesting that the authors use the term "perceptions by whites" in this
article. Does this imply that white people are racist when it comes to wanting
to laws enforced equally for all?Perhaps the authors could point out
that the Salt Lake City jail statistics could be skewed because all Hispanics
arrested are classified as "white". There is no place to specify ethnicity and
there isn't a checkbox to indicate whether or not they are here legally or not.
Burbank has been very clear that he isn't going to ask that question anyway.With a database like this, how can they tell us with a straight face
that illegal aliens/Hispanics don't commit any more crime than legal citizens?
You can't run a query if the data isn't there.
The Deseret News is one of the most biased news sources I have seen on this
issue. Why, I'm not sure? But they would have you think that Utah citizens have
no right to complain when illegals are overrunning our borders and bringing
their crime with them.
If we kick all illegals off land, then non indians would have to be kicked off
land where the American Government broke the treaties.Are we ready
for that?Or does we need to enforce the law only work in the favor
of us? It really isn't about keeping the law is it? It is about what ever is
in our selfish interest. Lets be honest and state what it really is that we
The problem is just not too many Mexicans coming to the USA, but there are far
too few Americans and Canadians moving to Mexico. The USA and Canada needs to
negotiate with Mexico more favorable immigration laws for Americans and
Canadians to immigrate into Mexico. Mexico is a country with trementous riches
and opportunities. It needs to balance its population with modern new
immigrants. It will then grow and prosper and most Mexicans and more Americans
will prefer to live in Mexico rather than out migrate. Give the Americans the
same opportunities to move to Mexico as the Mexicans have to move to the USA.
Here is the problem with the whole "illegal immigrants do not have a higher
crime rate" myth. If they weren't here illegally any crime rate they present
would not have occurred in the first place. It would be interesting to find out
the rate of crime committed by illegals toward legal citizens. This rate would
only be viable if it included identity theft, which, no matter how you spin it
is a criminal offense and is a major problem within the illegal immigrant ranks.
I don't want to hear any more "Push 1 to speak English" or the like. I don't want to have to guess who is here illegally. I want some reasonable
guarantee that my State and the entire nation is doing its job, protecting the
borders and fighting crime including illegal immigration. I want to be able to
welcome all Hispanics I see with the reasonable assurance that at least the vast
majority are here legally, are not taking our jobs, stealing our identities,
voting illegally, driving illegally.I want this to be a nation, and
this to be a state, in which we are all equal before the law, withot special
terms for illegal immigrants, such as Driver Privilege cards.I want
to see illegal employers hit hard by good laws. I want to see laws that
prescribe heavy penalties for new or old employees who are illegal
immigrants.I want to be a customer of the Deseret News but my views
seem only to be represented by the readers not the journalists and chosen
syndicated columns.I want to be able to communicate, in English, to
all my neighbors.
(continued)when people who are not citizens SNEAK into our country, kill people,
destroy homes and land, take jobs that rightfully belong to the citizens of this
great county, steal and cheat. It's okay if they come - do it legally. We are
tired of paying for people who don't belong here. Hospitals, clinics, etc., are
inundated with those who can't pay their way, and those who have a legal right
to these privilegs can't get them. If you don't believe it, make a visit, read
the paper, etc.
I knew when I read the first response to this article that it wasn't reliable.
I live in the southeast corner of Arizona. I am originally from Utah. Why
don't you folks who wrote the article come to my town and see what it is really
like? I, and most of the people I know don't hate Mexicans or any other group
of people. But, we don't like it when ANYONEwhat illegal
Finally the TRUTH!!!!! stings ,don`t it.....
Newsworthy well said...however make sure you pose real facts.....not spin as
this article appears too!
I can't believe these people who keep writing in that being in this country
illegally is a civil offense and not a criminal offense. That is factually
incorrect. IT IS A CRIMINAL OFFENSE.If this were only a small
problem, I don't think most people would be that concerned. But, when we get to
the point that we feel like we are being INVADED and when drug dealing,
violence, kidnapping, human trafficking, etc., etc., get this bad, Americans
have had it. In addition, it is a terrible drain on our social services.Look, I think most of us are somewhat conflicted about this issue. But,
it needs to stop. I applaud Arizona for having the courage to fight. I hope
Utah will follow suit. We've got to get control of our border.
Shaun McC wrote "for a piece that says it is dispelling myths, most of the
information reported is admittedly less than accurate. ('It did not single out
those who are illegal immigrants.' was used in some format four times in the
first 2 pages.)"If it's true that most illegal immigrants are
hispanic (that certainly seems to be the only group I hear complaints about),
and people assume that illegal immigrants are responsible for a certain
percentage of crimes, and it can be shown that hispanics commit crime at a rate
much lower than the assumed rate, then the myth of the higher crime rate is
successfully debunked. It's true that we'd like more specific details on the
percentage of crimes committed by illegals vs. legals, but the presented stats
are perfectly sufficient to demonstrate that the assumed rate, as is applies to
illegal Hispanic immigrants, is a myth.
ALL of us are entitled to our own opinions, NOT to our own facts and facts are
facts. If we still feel strongly against and issue, so be it. But, it is CRUCIAL
that facts be known so that educated opinions be formed.
The problem with this "article" [which, incidentally, is really an op-ed of the
Deseret News editorial staff] it ignores the millions of children of those
illegal ALIENS. They are what is killing our local economies. Every
kid born to an illegal in the U.S. [and they seem to have lots and lots and lots
of children] is a citizen. The article points out that illegals do not qualify
for food stamps, Medicaid, etc. But their CHILDREN do. But the illegals pay
nothing or next to nothing in taxes to offset that expense. Add to
that, the education system is throttled with non-English speaking children of
non-English speaking parents. And guess who gets short-changed? The children
of tax-paying citizens. English speaking children take a back seat to all of
the "no hablo" kids who have to be hand-fed English in order to even get to the
basics.If I were one of the "reporters" listed as an author in this
piece of pro-illegal trash I would be ashamed to have my name put in print.
Thanks to the DN writers who took a good look at the problem. Reliable data is
difficult to come by due to the nature of the problem -- assessing the numbers
and activities of those who don't want to be assessed.As anyone can
see by the comments above, illegal immigrants are becoming less and less
popular. The country clearly needs immigration reform at a national level,
perhaps on the European model consisting of "guestworkers" who are in the
country for a time working legally. Amnesty -- tried that in 1986 -- is not a
good option. Also, times have changed in the 250 years since the US
Constitution was written. Children of illegal immigrants should NOT be US
citizens.Finally, the Deseret News should change the policy of
suppressing the immigration status of persons accused or convicted of crimes.
This is important information for the public to know. For instance, what was
the immigration status of the woman accused of killing her 4 y/o stepson? How
about the people accused of shooting the man shot to death last week as he was
waiting to go to work? The public deserves to know if these people are illegal
To tawillin | 8:08 a.m. June 27, 2010 ***Illegal Immigration is NOT
a criminal offense. Illegal immigration is a civil offense. There are some
offenses that are criminal with immigration but crossing the boarder is not one
of them. So, it is unfair to compare illegal immigration to a speeding because a
speeding actually is a criminal offense.***Actually, since it is
illegal to be in the United States without proper documentation and approval,
illegal immigration is indeed a criminal,not civil, offense.
WOW! The DeseretNews is trying to confuse people with FACTS. Whoda thunkit!
yomero--we see the same thing, car after car, NOT registered in Az. Yet another
violation of the law. Chances are they don't have insurance either.
Accepting as a fact that it is hard to find data on the effects of illegals, the
Deseret News will surely support Utah passing a law requiring that all
government services determine if the recipient is a citizen, legal resident, or
illegal alien. (Call the latter "undocumented", or "other" if you cannot bear
to use the correct term, "Illegal alien.")This should be done for
every school registration (K-12 and university level!); every law enforcement
action; every court proceeding; every medical visit; every welfare payment;
every CHIP enrollment; every vehicle registration, etc.If state
funds are even remotely involved, we have a right to determine if the people
using our services are here legally.After we do that, the Deseret
News needs to do a new article, based on actual data, and tell the truth, unable
to hide behind phony numbers from liberal advocacy groups.The U.S.
has always welcomed, and benefited from legal immigration, but we are always
harmed by illegal immigration.
Three quick observations - and I am one that believes we should streamline the
process and increase access for non-criminal immigrants to come here legally.
The editor that reviewed this piece is not doing his/her job. First,
in most cases, information that goes against the basic premise that we are
over-reacting to illegal immigration is not used in this piece. That is not
journalism - it is propaganda.Second, for a piece that says it is
dispelling myths, most of the information reported is admittedly less than
accurate. ("It did not single out those who are illegal immigrants." was used in
some format four times in the first 2 pages.)Third, some items are
dismissive or misleading and should have been caught by the editor. For example,
from page 4, it says, "It's unlikely that Hispanic illegal immigrants are
crowding most of Utah's public schools, given that about one in seven (14.7
percent) of the children enrolled are Hispanic" How exactly is that not crowding
the schools?I have usually felt that the Deseret News had high
standards of journalism, but I'm beginning to wonder. Present this as news or
The basics of any study require first a good model and second good data. You
have neither upon which to base any of "findings" of this article. For example,
how does the database differentiate between what it designates as crimes by
legal and illegal immigrants, or white and "hispanic" Until you really look at
how this data is being categorized, you are just dealing with nonsense. And,
that is what the database is. Article writers ask yourselves, how many Peruvians
committed crimes in the USA and how many were illegal entrants to the country.
Now find that in the database. You can not because it blends all "hispanics"
into one group and fails to delinate between illegal and legals. Further give
that legal immigrants by their extreme sacrifice to enter the country by
fulfilling all of it laws become some of the most law abiding citizens their
inclusion "hispanics", reduces the average crime rate of the group because in
the case of the "hispanic" group they represent a sizable component of the
population. I appreciate your effort find objective data in the case of this
article and its basis you just have not done so!
Terrific article! I hope we'll see more like this. Without
responsibly-reported facts, the political discussion tends to devolve into
fevered name-calling on both sides.For those of you who saw the
article as solely pro-immigation, you need to read more carefully. There was
food for thought on both sides.
@ nobody_s fool......if you see car after with chihuhha .licence plates ,drop
kids off at school ,it means they are U.S. citizens ,or explain how they cross
the border everyday .so the only biased here is you.
This is hilarious. It's as though I am watching the conservatives world falling
apart. Keep up the great posts!
You guys are really too much! Accusing the Deseret News of pushing a liberal
agenda? Really?I for one applaud the DNews for doing their best to
put together some fact based analysis, rather than a bunch of baseless talking
points, on a subject where very few figures are publicly available.
What a superb article. You have done a great service to our state and our
country with this immensely valuable tribute to first rate journalism.
Kudos for the Deseret News for their effort in trying to make sense of the
propaganda about illegal immigration and it’s problems. Unfortunately
many of us feel that you failed. The things we see and hear about in our
everyday world overwhelmingly tell us that the influx of foreign people is
dominating jobs previously held by Americans. American families are
hurting, when they can’t find jobs and see so many Latinos working
everywhere, it is hard not to make the conclusion that the problems are cause by
the new arrivals. All the statistics about supposed real truth just can’t
match personal observation.The propaganda that illegal immigration
is a liberal thing, is a lie. Although liberals like myself will cheer the
advent of new Americans regardless how they get here, the real imputes is the
business quest for low wages. And because business is mainly conservatives, it
is the conservatives who want to impede the solution to illegal immigration.The fix for problems is in the fixing of our economic system to provide
for the circulation (redistribution) of wealth throughout our society. Only
then will we survive as the American dream.
The problem with this story is it says all illegals are from Mexico. That just
isn't the case. There are many illegals who have overstayed their visas from
other countries. That would make them ILLEGAL. Whether you cross over the border
without a visa, or you stay in the country while your visa is expired, it is
illegal. That means it violates a law, and in America is a crime. Therefore,
100% of all ILLEGAL immigrants are criminals according to American law. There's
a fact no one wants to talk about.
This article reminds me that we have a group of people in our society who are
more like ghosts rather than human. We can't even identify who they are or give
accurate statistics regarding employment and other activities they are involved
in. They could easily be sleeper cells involved in future terrorism. The
illegals have more freedom than we do because no one is tracking them or holding
them accountable for their actions. Even when they are caught and returned to
their country, they can easily return and do what they want. The rest of us
have to pay the consequences for their behavior, such as stolen identities,
crime, etc. Why should I even have to be responsible for these ghosts?
America is a land of laws. When are the politicians going to enforce them? One
is too many so why bother to do your bogus research? This is my country!
Perceptions by whites? What the heck sort of a statement is that?If
the study of crime doesn't take into account citizenship status, what is the
point? Being here illegally is in fact a crime but somehow that doesn't count as
a crime in these studies.
jplant -look a bit closer at the so called sources you claim the Dnews quoted.
Several times they quote a person and not a study. That indicates an opinion,
certainly not any kind of reliable data. A newspaper publisher once said
"Freedom of the press belongs to those who own one" This article is confirmation
of that statement.
Let's assume most illegal immigrants pay taxes, have auto insurance, and work
hard. I am a citizen; I pay taxes, I have auto insurance and I work hard.
Which federal law should I be able to ignore? We are either a nation of laws or
we are not. Equal protection means the laws will be applied equally or they
will not be. There are millions of hard working people all over the world who
want to be here to pursue a better life for their families. The mere fact that
it's easier to enter illegally from Mexico than from Darfur should not be an
advantage for the pathway to a better life.
What a disappointment!!I read this article with the hope of finding
some more authoritative basis for or against the many claims for or against our
nations idiotic toleration of illegal immigration.What I found
instead was a poorly organized collection of very loose statistical data, much
of it not even pertaining to ILLEGAL immigration.Furthermore, almost
all of it was presented with a clearly apologetic tone that suggests a much less
than objective stance from the reporters than I expect from no less than FOUR
"journalists".If this was the best that the Deseret News can come up
with (something I assume considering the number of people involved) on such an
important and long-festering problem, then I will need to adjust my expectations
of the D-News downward by quite a bit.
No doubt Ken and many more of you should be in Jail and locked up for
something.You are so igor to lock others up, Let's Lock Up some of these
Judges, Prosecutors and District Attorneys that do not do their job properly.We have to many People locked up that are innocent.We are supposed to
have a speedy trial, Many People are in jail for 5 years and never convicted for
anything. What ever they had is now lost.The Judicial System is
corrupt.You all want someone else locked up.People without a Lawyer
will be convicted because they can not afford a Lawyer.The Lawyers in Utah
are behind the times in The Constitution.
Lee Davidson, Elaine Jarvik, Louis m. Collins and Chuck Gates. SHAME ON YOU.
Evidently you good people show great intelligence but have absolutely no, NONE,
zilch, on knowledge of America's GOD, given CONSTITUTION and that GOD in
Heaven, meant our beloved America, to be a Nation of laws to be followed by all.
Could you elite Journalist tell me. What part of America's law does "ILLEGAL",
fit??? Answer-JAIL, PRISON, INCARCERATION, no political correctness here. A
word to the wise is sufficient. Remember folks. The glory of GOD, is
intelligence. It does not take a rocket scientist to see what is wrong with this
I've always thought that the problems associated with illegal immigration were
wildly overstated and that yes it is very bigoted to label them as criminals.
The fact is that there are only about 5000 work visas for the types of jobs
immigrants typically fill, while in the earlier part of the decade the economy
was adding hundreds of thousands of them each year. That is why the system is
broken. It does not reflect economic reality. Even if you run them all out, I
doubt many Utahns would be applying for jobs at the dairy or as sheepherders.
Get a grip. Our immigration "problem" is mostly supply and demand. We can't
accept them in good times and turn around and criminalize them in bad times.
What caused the change between the wonderful nostalgia engendered by photographs
of immigrants sailing past the Statue of Liberty and the out and out "throw the
bums out" mentality of current immigrants? I live in New Mexico. Guess what, we
gets a lot of immigrants, some legal some not. Some of these same people worked
on our family dairy farm. They were hard workers. I say lets open our borders.
By the way. What part of "ILLEGAL" DO YOU Journalist , do you not
I do believe that all American Journalism, should be made it manditory to
MASTER, the wisdom on america's beloved GOD, given CONSTITUTION. .
Four Deseret News reporters showed their level of competence by collectively
writing an article to "prove" their own preconceptions.Were those
reporters never taught to get to the bottom of an issue before writing a
story?Were those reporters told to gather only the facts that
supported their thesis?Did those reporters rely on Chief Burbank for
their information?The objectivity of the Deseret News is now
suspect. Other posters have pointed out how "data" was misused or ommitted. Shame on the Deseret News.
Very biased article. Maybe they should come down here to El Paso & live where I
live, pay the taxes I do, watch car after car with a Chihuahua license plate
drop their kids off at school & visit a hospital ER & local jail/prison system,
before they try to make it sound as if illegals really aren't a problem. What a
joke - I expect better from any newspaper!
Illegal Immigration is NOT a criminal offense. Illegal immigration is a civil
offense. There are some offenses that are criminal with immigration but crossing
the boarder is not one of them. So, it is unfair to compare illegal immigration
to a speeding because a speeding actually is a criminal offense.
Legal Beagle--great postTo parents and employers everywhere--Do you
allow your children or employees to pick and choose which rules they will abide
by? What happens when one of your children or one employee is not
held accountable as are the other children or employees?Every day at
school, as the illegal parents drop off their kids in very nice, new vehicles,
we wish we had access to the benefits they are receiving. (thanks for the info
on TANF VickieB--that answers a question we have)Illegal is illegal,
they are costing this country $, who knows how many unreported crimes there are
(illegals don't call the police when they are victimized), and murder in the
desert is not uncommon, just unreported.
Illegal aliens in Maricopa County, Arizona were 9% of the population in 2008.
They accounted for over 18% of ALL actual felony convictions. That is undeniable
fact. Also, corridors of public land in Arizona are posted no entry for American
citizens because the land is controlled by foreign criminals. These posted
warnings are within 30 miles of the Capitol. No myths, just undisputable facts.
Best original article from the DesNews I've ever read. Keep it up.
100% of illegal citizens in this country have committed a crime, thus the term
America, the land of the free, desired by many because of that freedom and
opportunity! Laws have been enacted to protect that freedom and opportunity,
that is why we have immigration laws. Anyone can apply for legal immigration to
this country....that is the rule of law. Not unlike other countries who likewise
seek to protect immigration in their country! If we don't abide by the rule of
law then all that America has been, will be reduced to just another country run
by corrupt government, to be feared! I support the rule of law in this country
and to do less is inviting disaster in this country. Illegals have no rights in
this country....they may demand them, but under the rule of law they must first
become naturalized citizens then they will have all the protection under the
laws of this land as well as enjoy all of the rights and privileges of legal
citizens.Uphold the laws of the land and you will protect your freedom and
liberties garanteed by the Constitution of this land!
Gee, if you could reduce the violent crime in your city by over 25% by getting
rid of the illegals would you do it? Their are a couple of counties in VA that
reduced their violent crime by 38% by getting rid of the illegals. One city does
not a study make.
Be prepared for more biased articles like this one, and probably a tv
advertising campaign as well, trying to influence the American public to go in
favor of amnesty for all illegals. So illegals make up 4% of the prison
population, according to the article. So what's the national cost of imprisoning
that many illegals. A billion here, a billion there, pretty soon you're talking
about some real money.
What a deceptive, misleading, agenda driven waste of space this article is!The posted graphics show something clearly as false, then the following
paragraphs go on to say at best that we don't really know.Examples -
the graphics say it's false:to claim illegals take away jobs, but it says
it "gets murky" and "is debatable" and gives no clear evidence they don't take
jobs.that Americans spend billions to educate illegal children, then
quotes an S&P study saying it cost $11.2 billion. How can it not cost billions
and cost $11.2 billion? it says they pay that much in taxes, but says we don't
know how much tax they pay!that we spend spend billions in medicare
on illegals - but the graphic ignores the fact we spend billions on medicaid,
which is funded by citizens.that illegals crowd and don't pay for
emergency rooms, but then says we don't knowthat illegals get
foodstamps, when an article in this very paper within the last couple weeks said
a family of four with US born kids and illegal parents get MORE in food aid than
a similar legal family
I live n Texas. Utah stats don't apply here. There are a LARGE number of
crimes committed by immigrants--and many of them are illegal.
Who passed the law that the offspring of illegal intruders are automatically
citizens of the USA just because they are born on American soil? This is
insanity. People who believe just because we used to have guest status for
folks to work the agriculture crops and then return to Mexico when the crop
season was over, and now these people have citizen status are crazy. This isn't
1900 or the 1800's when mostly Europeans immigrated to this country. This
country cannot accomodate the 10's of millions of people who would come here
from wherever. It would ruin us with all the socialism we now have.
For all of you that love illegals remember this you are slapping the faces of
all those who have and who are legal immigrants to this country. You say what
laws have they broke. They broke the biggest of all they didn't wait to come
here legally. They are saying the laws do not refer to us.
Biased article intended to mislead American citizens into accepting crime and
corruption. Not a chance that it is believable much less factual. The real
situation is the one we see on the streets every day. No amount of liberal spin
will convince the average law-abiding citizen otherwise.
To "Moderate", hiring an illegal alien to work for you is also a crime.The reality is that we don't have an illegal immigration problem, we have an
illegal employment problem.Do you patronize a McDonalds if there is
a hispanic behind the counter with questionable english skills? If so, you are
likely contributing to the problem, not being part of the solution.Do you bargain on price for work on your home, go with the lowest quote and
hire a contractor who has hispanics with limited english skills? If so, you are
contributing to the problem.If we started seizing all assets of any
business that employed an illegal alien, the immigrants would not be around
because they would have no jobs.In then end though, this article is
being attacked because it challenges the brainwashing that has been methodically
completed by Limbaugh, Hannity, and the other right wing idealoges.
BTW: the artwork depicted at the beginning of the article shows the Mexican flag
colors covering a large portion of the U. S. A slap in the face to legal
I teach English to rural immigrants. Our enrollment process doesn't question
documentation status, but the vast majority are most likely undocumented. They
are kind, hardworking people, not killers, rapists, nor drug kingpins. They are
moms and dads wanting to read storybooks to their babies and understand what
their older kids are saying in English and help with their homework. They are
young fellows who work in the hot sun/pouring rain/freezing cold or eviscerate
and cut up chickens all day. Instead of going home to pop open a Corona and plop
down in front of the TV, they attend class two nights a week to improve
themselves. How many American day laborers would make that choice? In very few
cases, if any, are these fellows taking jobs from Americans. If we Americans
weren't such lazy, choosy workers, there wouldn't be jobs for immigrants. When a
local factory closed, I was involved in a GED and job skills program for
laid-off Americans. Their attitudes were horrible, their effort practically
nonexistent, and attendance sporadic. I can't tell you how often I heard, "Ain't
no way I'm workin' outside or in no chicken plant."
Why the agenda-based article? It discredits much of the "information".
More "Fiction" than "Fact."
Interesting article. Shows there is a lot of "" that passes for reality when it
really isn't.I am one that relishes in truth. Cut whatever direction
Agenda driven news article that shows obvious bias, based on biased information
from less than neutral information sources. Sad.
re:moderateIf you take a ride to the border, you'll find plenty of signs
that tell you the law. 19 usc 1459, it carries a civil fine and criminal
penalty. Also in order to work in the US you have to commit a
felony. Even with a tax ID number. The tax ID number does not give you lawful
presence in the US, or authorize you to work. It's a loophole that's being
exploited and needs to be fixed. Most of the people that use them are out of the
country businessmen that must report and pay taxes in the US.I like
the graphics. Without us knowing the true number of people here, how can we
determine percentage? They are not fact, they are fiction.
Please don't confuse me with the facts, I've made my mind up. Tea Party Patriot
What this DN staff found is the exact roadblock on statistics that everyone
faces. There are none.Statistics they found were held by the illegal
aliens themselves and by lumping american hispanics as illegal alien
statistics.So how many billions of dollars are lost by income tax
fraud, by employers and employees.There are no statistics on
illegals, crimes included. Police forget to mention illegal status of criminals
in their reports. Statistics on crime only exist if prosecuted as illegal and
deport.This report is clearly written to disuade the american people
in to thinking that illegals are not an economic problem in Utah.I
would like to see this staff poll the hispanics personally if they want some
real facts. There is a 100% crime rate if you include breaching our borders
illegally. And if they poll the legal american hispanics they would
find them just as disgusted as the rest of the american people and faced with
discrimination because of the illegal foreign nationals.Now justify
$36,000 a year in food stamps for any family. That's 3 times maximum income to
qualify to get them.
Thank You Deseret News, this is a case of honest reporting. Notice: they cited
their sources and showed faults in existing beliefs (all studies are biased, we
just assume that ones that are with our perspective are not). Most reporting
especially that of specific news agencies use anecdotal evidence or quickly give
a source without its credibility. The purpose of this article was not to
question the legality of illegal immigration, but rather to show that americans
have been using illegal immigration as a scapegoat for their problems.
Instead of dispelling myths, it seems you have added to the disinformation by
selective "cherry picking" your sources. I think this is a subject that people
need to check out information on their own. Quoting a study done by an
Organization that Chief Burbank is part of clouds the issue. Mexico
controls there immigration by relying on their officers on the front line. The
local police. The fear of discovery is the most effective deterrent and cannot
be ignored. Why did you use the map graphic of Aztlan and not
mention the connection with illegal immigration?
re : "geez ... If you guys are so in love with hispanics and Mexico, why don't
you move there and sing kum bi ah for the rest of your lives. "ST,
The better question is if you are so in love with no or low taxes, no public
schools, no governmet services, no labor rights or unions and privatization of
EVERYTHING, why don't conservatives move to Mexico? It's allready what you
want.Good job DN. Some really good journalizm. Much better than just
posting biased articles from extremists and pundants.
Figures don't lie but frequently liars figure. Shame on you Deseret News for
such a biased article. Isn't it wonderful to quote only the sources you choose
to support your opinions and call it fact. At least pick a realistic
opposition to print an article debunking your "myths"
In reference to the educational funding portion of the article:The
amount estimated for education is listed and the comment is made that taxes
collected "far exceed" this amount.What about other services used by
illegal immigrants that are provided by tax money?An unbiased
article would have listed how much is actually collected.A more
accurate assessment would compare amount spent on education and amount collected
in taxes for illegal vs legal populations.As has been stated so
eloquently in the past: There are lies, (darn) lies, and statistics.
An obviously biased article.
@Not So FastThere are no hard facts on illegal immigration. This article
does very little to dispel facts or fiction, since it mostly quotes opinions
(quoting a sanctuary organization's statistics on crime is very biased) and
studies done, that do not differentiate legal immigrants from the people here
Now if we really want to get to facts, let us realize that these people are
"illegal" cause we politically made a law not too long ago... within the last
100 years to change the way we allowed immigrants in. We monkey around with
these laws all the time... But these myths for the last twenty years have been
the impetus that has blocked any changes that could have brought about a
lessening of the very same, by allowing more legal immigration and ways for
those to "fix" or become legal. Sad day when these myths and people who cherish
them rather state to those debunking them that they love law breakers .....
thank you Deseret News to try to set the story straight for those who hear
talkshow radio hosts as factual journalists.
What part crime has someone who was brought here as a babe in arms (age 2) and
was brought up only knowing the United States as home? Unlike speeding, this
person didn't even have the criminal intent to commit the crime, so stop on the
insanity of what part of illegal don't you understand. Some people obviously
don't understand past the retoric and don't understand that while their
organizations report more crime, yet the border has never been more closed as it
has more border patrol, more fence line, and less immigrants entering the United
States. Yet we have the Governor of Arizona.... believing "most" crossers are
drug mules. She is just as confused as the rest of those who are making
ignornant comments to this article.... those who choose not to see the facts as
they are but those who retoric and mob behavior rule the day. Too bad that most
of the scientific innovations have been from immigrants... but hey.... we don't
need that... we don't want any immigrants... we like our ignorance. Let us
shrink in mind and culture.
I think many posters are saying, "Your facts don't fit my world view, therefore
your facts must be wrong!" Not a good way to learn much.
As someone who has Hispanic relatives, I think the numbers are incorrect. The
growth of community is much larger than reported, although many have left in the
past year. It's easier to find jobs in Mexico than the US. Their unemployment
numbers are much lower than the US. If they make up 3-4% of our workforce,
that's jobs America needs. I know many legal relatives that work in those
fields. With over 1 million legal people coming here legally each year, plus
people on guest worker programs, it's not needed. I hope the
government comes up with some hard facts. Something that both sides can verify.
Until then, people will quote the Chief Burbanks and Steve King, and we will
make our own decisions based on the news and what goes on around us. I think if you do some digging you'll find that a loophole in TANF (Temporary
Assistance for Needy Families program) allows a parent of children born in this
country to apply in their "birthright" child's name and receive assistance for
the entire family (or all children, legal resident or not).
Illegal is illegal, you can try to spin it, polish it; but at the end of the day
its the same. For those of you who believe states should not enforce federal
laws I would ask you to thoughtfully consider this question. If a local law
enforcement officers stops a car and through observation and questioning
determines the individuals in the car have counterfeit money and the equipment
to make counterfeit money, should they stop the individual and call the federal
authorities so they can arrest the counterfeiters? If we apply the
argument put forth by those who oppose AZ law that enforces federal law, we
should let the counterfeiters go because its a federal matter and the secret
services job to investigate counterfeiting.If you believe the
argument put forth by those who support the AZ law, you would answer, of course
they should. If any law enforcement officer notes a crime is being committed,
it is his duty to make the initial arrest and turn the suspect over to the
federal agents.We all live in this country and we all need to
support the laws.
Here is the statistics for our Early Head Start program where I work. ( I am
not gonna say which state, I might get in trouble) 55% Hispanics, 33% Blacks,
12% Others which means white, asian,etc other than Blacks and Hispanics. EHS is
a program for low income family. Well, read between the lines.
RE: KenNot a fact. Living in this country undocumented is a civil
offense, just as driving faster than the speed limit is a civil offense.Neither are criminal offenses.That is how the law sees it.
If you don't like the law, change it, or move to another country.
The issue isn't all the myths floating around---most of which no one really
believes anyway. The myths and the above statistical support are classical red
herrings.The issue is the "illegal" part of immigration. Let's say
I do something illegal such as speed or smoke pot or steal or cheat on my taxes
or assault someone or drink and drive or......fill in the blank.Then the
police and other members of society start to say that since statistics show that
only 5% of the population are doing these things, therefore there are myths
regarding the facts, hence the implication is that it isn't as bad as is being
suggested by a myth-frenzied society. Who among us, who among any culture
or society, is going to buy into that type of logic?Laws are placed in a
society to keep order AND to keep anarchy from ruling the day. The current state
of the illegal immigration issue is in complete and utter disarray and our
Police and government haven't a clue as to how to solve the problem, so it
becomes a race issue, instead of an "illegal" practice issue.
Thank you for all of the comments, even the D-News cannot hide behind the
liberal lies and twisting of the truth anymore. I doubt that the comment
screener will let this one bye.
ONE illegal immigrant is TOO MANY
Using Burbanks organization discredits this, in my opinion. You should check out
his organization and it's open borders policy. Illegal immigration
statistics have been hidden from the public for years. It's time for
intellectual honesty in the immigration enforcement debate. In 2008
PEW estimates put the US at 12-30 million people here illegally. Utah's numbers
were around 250,000. The numbers were revised in 2009 after the recession to 11
million, with 1 million returning home. Since most studies use PEW's numbers,
it's hard to get a grasp on the true figures. One thing is for sure, normal
population growth and legal immigration cannot account for the huge increase in
Latino growth country wide. Many cities have went from 3% of population to
12-14% in only 10 years. During those 10 years (1998-2008)legal Latino
immigration accounted for 3.6 million people. The legal immigration numbers is a
hard fact obtainable from the US government. They arrested 17 people
for the Pinal sheriff shooting, 14 are on immigration hold. (here illegally
awaiting deportation after the investigation)
FACT: illegal immigrants are criminals, and lame is the comparison to speeding
or something like thatCriminals belong in jail
Wow! A conservative newspaper confusing the issue with facts. It's pretty
unheard of these days. And of course, some people still won't believe them. In
rough economic times, people need someone to blame and it's historically always
been the immigrants. The Irish, Japanese, Chinese, Polish.. they've all been
there. America is not so much a melting pot as it is a vinaigrette. We just
can't seem to emulsify.
Did your study also establish the ILLEGAL is NOT illegal? The real myths are
that the federal government enforces the law and that they are working to secure
the border. There can be no doubt that illegals are hurting America and our laws
are being mocked by illegals, POLICE CHIEFS, and of course politicians. One
more: anyone who wants illegal aliens curbed is a racist.
It was a good attempt and I appreciate it... but you shouldn't make the claim
that you are debunking myths. I was hopeful this article would have
cold hard facts, but I was naive. Everything is biased and there are flaws in
your data.Thanks for the attempt though, well thought out.
You really pick and choose what you report, and your sources. Consortium for
Police Leadership in Equity is PERF. Organized to fight any immigration
enforcement. There are no government agency in the U.S., FBI,
Immigration and Customs Enforcement that tracks crime by people here illegally,
so any study will be biased according to the point they are trying to prove. We
watch the news at night and read the papers. Sometimes we have to read between
the lines, as the reporters do not bring up citizenship in many cases, and
booking agents do not have to check immigration status in Utah. (Changes on July
1)Know one knows who killed the rancher on the border, but his daily
dealing with people in the country illegally is suspect. The country deputy was
shot by people here illegally and was apprehended by helicopters called in.
Please check the follow up story. ITIN's are used by citizens of
foreign countries that own property or have a business in the US. Most are not
living here. It's hard to write an article using biased sources,
since the facts are hidden by the Government.
Hats off, great article.
The 5% of illegals employed would reduce the unemployment numbers if actual
citizens could have those jobs. It would have been professional if these 4
reporters would have actually had an anti-illegal immigration point. I did not
see one in this whole article. Where have all the unbiased reporters gone?
The "Consortium for Police Leadership in Equity" is the organization that Chief
Burbank belongs to. It is the organization started by the police chiefs of the
sanctuary cities that refuse to enforce immigration laws. A very liberal
pro-illegal immigration group. I had hoped this would be unbiased.
I fefute the premise of your entire article. Real damage is done to our country
and our society when laws are not enforced; damage is also done to the illegal
immigrant who is forced to live in the shadows of society. The greatness of our
country is firmly rooted in the rule of law. The failure of the Federal
Government to enforce the immigration laws undermines the Rule of Law. Further,
wanting immigrants to come through the front door is not racism...is honesty!!
Obviously, your article is an attempt to whitewash the dishonesty of illegal
immigration....whether or not the alleged "myths" are true or not.
10,000,000 or more illegal immigrants are proof that the Government of the
United States of America has not met its responsibility in securing the borders.
I am sure that many myths are out there being repeated endlessly. But it is a
fact that for many years the Federal government has not done a proper job on the
border and enforcing Federal laws.
The prison numbers are not accurate because they are deported. Chief Burbank
knows this which is why he used the prison figures instead of actual crimes. The
"myths" are based on what people see on the evening news.
Finally! An honest look at the issue. I'm so tired of all the misinformation,
made up stats, and fear mongering. THANK YOU Deseret News!
The source for this "study" on the crime aspect is a left wing outfit called the
"Consortium for Police Leadership in Equity" which is a front for liberal
advocacy groups. The CPLE website brags: "Drs. Phillip Atiba Goff &
Tracie Keesee, Executive Directors of the Consortium for Police Leadership in
Equity, in conjunction with Chief Chris Burbank of the Salt Lake City Police
Department recently wrote an op-ed that was published by the Huffington
Post..."Hardly a respected academic analysis of facts presented in a
mainstream forum. Clearly they are a bunch likely to cherry pick facts they
like and ignore those they don't. Burbank is blatantly biased about
illegals and will not enforce the laws already on the books. That tells us a
lot about his objectivity!I would expect a piece like this from the
Tribune, but expected better from the Deseret News.
geez ... If you guys are so in love with hispanics and Mexico, why don't you
move there and sing kum bi ah for the rest of your lives. What part
of "ILLEGAL immigrant" do you "reporters" not understand? If you
don't like the law then try to change it. But don't sit there and play spin
doctor all day to try and influence the general public toward your illegal