Yes...they broke a law. Yes they came across the border.Fix the
law. Fix the law that prohibits a worker from coming to the US to work and then
go home. You gave them Tax Numbers. You gave them a wink and a
nod, then when they came you yanked the rug out from under them. God help us. God created ALL men equal...not just humans fortunate enough to
be born on a certain side of the border! God forgive us of our
And EACH AND EVERYONE of you has certainly contributed money and help to you
"neighbor" to the south...living in poverty...I'm sure.And EACH AND
EVERYONE of you ... in your neighbor's(illegal immigrant)'s shoes..would
do the same for your little children too. You would find a better life...if you
don't...your children and family dies. Yes, that's the answer. I'm
sure that is what God intended for his children south of the border!!!!! LET
THEM ALL DIE.Send them BACK. We don't care what happens to them
AFTER that! We just don't want them HERE!After all, (as we stand on
our tower) Oh God, we thank thee that thou has created us to be better than
them. For we are not like them...beggars and thieves! We have been blessed
with great homes and great yards, pools and skiing and SUVS! We
thank thee OH GOD for not making us poor, like unto the filth that comes across
out border to find help! We thank thee, that our hearts are so tied to our
wealth that we cannot see to help and reach a hand of LOVE.
@LOL"The most important question conservatives have on their minds today
is:If the Mexicans are legalized, they can still be exploited, right?"You want them legalized so the libs can exploit them right? It is
called buying votes. The libs will exploit them to stay in power, that's all
they care about. Your opinion that only conservatives exploit illegal
immigrants shows your ignorance. Sorry to burst your bubble but there are
plenty of libs that do the same thing. Your probably gullible enough to believe
the nobel peace prize is legit, right?
Great article...Great points.1. The US Government has dangled the
immigration carrot in front of these wonderful people for years. Most have an
ITIN...tax number...why? So when they work they can pay taxes...but wait, it's
illegal to work. Yes, it is. Yet they are encouraged.2. They bite
on the carrot and come to the US.3. U.S. benefits from their
presence...taxes, Social Security collection, tax base, inexpensive and good
labor.4. They buy homes, cars, food, clothing, all going into the
tax base.5. The only problem? Fed Gov has not provide the proper
means for them to come legally. 6. Say what you may, coming
legally is not a current possibility. The system is screwed up.7.
IF they COULD come legally, then we would be talking about "almost" the SAME
12-14 million "legal" immigrants. 8. Their biggest fault, they bit
the carrot the U.S dangled in front of their faces! Don't pull the rug out
now...9. Stop hating your brother, and IF you LDS...read 2Nephi 12,
which says the None shall come into this land but those whom HE leads.
to 2 bits @12:14 pm 6/24We have the same problem here in Maryland.
We aren't a border state (although we have several ports of entry - air and
sea), and we have a HUGE problem with illegal immigrants. We also have a huge
problem with organizations (like Casa de Maryland) encouraging illegals to move
here, including putting out literature on how to take every step you need to get
every penny of free aid you possibly can from our county.
to Pagan @11:36 am 6/24 (follow-up)You seem to be using these
historical events to say that because our ancestors took what wasn't ours that
we have no right to tell others to follow our laws or respect our property.In earlier posts you admonished us all to learn from history lest we
repeat the mistakes of those before us.So, we should behave like the
Native Americans did, allow the newcomers to share in our bounty, until they
outnumber and outgun us and push us onto lands they don't want.Sorry, I can't buy into that. We live in today's world, with today's laws and
today's issues. We need to look at history (amnesty laws didn't work in the
80's, they won't work today) and deal with the problems we face today.Immigrants are welcome here as long as they follow the law. All of the law.
Including the ones governing how they can come in here. Just as you or I would
have to do if we chose to move to Argentina, Germany, Japan, Australia or any
to Pagan @11:36 am 6/24I don't think very many people would agree
today that it was okay for early settlers to push Native Americans off their
lands, push them into reservations or slaughter them. I would also argue that
there were people alive at the time that it was happening who would agree with
you. However, to accurately and fairly judge people of the past you have to
judge them based on their frame of reference. Many of the people who did that
had been taught that the aboriginal people were less than human, and they
treated them that way.You and I may know better, but many of the
people alive at that time did not. Many of the people who benefited from such
atrocities probably didn't know that it was happening. News didn't travel
nearly as fast as it does today (think months instead of seconds), far more
people couldn't read, and it was not uncommon for the news writers of the time
to fashion the news to make it look like Native Americans deserved what was
happening to them.
To Reyndog @10:50 am 6/24Yes, illegal immigrants are people. So is
every criminal that has ever lived or ever will.There are
differences in definitions that you are glossing over.If you break a
law that imposes criminal punishments, you are a criminal. If you break a law
that imposes civil punishments, you are not a criminal.There are not
criminal punishments for exceeding the speed limit, so that doesn't make you a
criminal. Simply texting while you drive does not make you a criminal, although
killing someone while you do it could (depends on the state). Letting your dog
run around without a license doesn't make you a criminal. You aren't a criminal
for stopping late, rolling through a stop sign, or even running a red light
(although the fines for each get stiffer).You finally hit it on the
head. All the examples you gave are local ordinances, not laws in criminal or
penal codes.Immigration law, however, carries civil AND criminal
penalties. Breaking those laws makes you a criminal.
to Pagan @10:47 am 6/24I don't think NevadaCoug meant that we should
simply forget or ignore what has happened in the past. The point, I think, is
some things in history can't be undone. Using historical wrongs to justify bad
behavior today is NOT learning from history. Slavery was abolished over 140
years ago; women have had the vote for decades (Utah had it before the US
generally, by the way). Has all inequality been eradicated? No, but as a
nation we are trying.Yes, there are some very dark events in our
history. And yes, we ignore them at our peril.Take 9/11.
Immigration laws were not enforced, visas were allowed to expire with no
consequences, and thousands of lives were lost and thousands more changed
forever. Those laws continue to be ignored, and in doing so we invite a repeat
of history.We can't round up and deport 12 million illegal
immigrants. But we can deport the ones caught committing crimes, let them take
their families with them, and eliminate the incentive for them to come
to Not_Scared at 8:56 am 6/24I'm not sure what your target failed to
understand. There isn't anything in the California penal code that he quoted
that encroaches on Federal jurisdiction.Similarly, the Arizona law
clearly states that the enforcement of that law is not to encroach on Federal
jurisdiction.That law also states that police may NOT stop someone
for immigration issues, but that once stopped for another issue, police may ask
for documentation if there is reasonable suspicion, which may NOT be based on
race, color or national origin.
You know it's funny to hear all these clueless, uninformed attacks against the
Arizona immigration law and the suggestion that nobody really wants this sort of
law in their state YET Utah and many other states DO want a law just like
Arizona's and that is why there is legislation in the works right now to adopt
such laws. The majority of Arizona and Utah residents want a strong immigration
law to protect the law respecting citizens of their states and they are smart
enough to see through all the smoke screens the media keeps throwing out to
misrepresent the real issues. My guess is after all the smoke does finally
clear, Arizona ,Utah and many other states will have new immigration laws
protecting their citizens and all of this before years end.
@ Pagan | 3:31 p.m. June 24And don't forget the 80 million guns
owners in the U.S.!
@Pagan"Logic has nothing to do with this."Pretty much every
comment you've made defies logic.
A member of a "conservative public policy think tank" espousing liberal
philosophy is an oxymoron if I've ever seen one.
More legal FACTS:Federal Immigration and Nationality ActSection 8 USC 1324(a)(1)(A)(iv)(b)(iii)"Any person who...
encourages or induces an alien to... reside... knowing or in reckless disregard
of the fact that such... residence is... in violation of law, shall be punished
as provided... for each alien in respect to whom such a violation occurs...
fined under title 18... imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both."
Speeding and enter the US illegally CANNOT be compared. Get real, people!Under Title 8 Section 1325 of the U.S. Code, "Improper Entry by Alien,"
any citizen of any country other than the United States who:Enters
or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as
designated by immigration officers; or Eludes examination or
inspection by immigration officers; or Attempts to enter or obtains
entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or
the willful concealment of a material fact; has committed a federal crime.Violations are punishable by criminal fines and imprisonment for up to
six months. Repeat offenses can bring up to two years in prison. Additional
civil fines may be imposed at the discretion of immigration judges, but civil
fines do not negate the criminal sanctions or nature of the offense.==========Such entry is a misdemeanor and, if repeated, becomes
punishable as a FELONY.
wrz--my point was based, in part, on an earlier post. The illegals actually
committing various crimes are considered a scourge by those immigrants who are
legal and many of the illegals who are living a crime-free life. These people
are just as angry as the citizens here who are sick and tired of it all.I am in no way a supporter of illegal immigrants.
@ReasonableRepublican 7:18 p.m.:"Let him who has never committed a
misdemeanor cast the first stone at his unauthorized immigrant neighbor. Are
they criminals?"I think you are making a reasonably valid point.
Janet Napolitano tells us that crossing the border without authorization is just
a civil misdemeanor. Makes you wonder why we are spending hundreds of millions
trying to close the border.
Let him who has never committed a misdemeanor cast the first stone at his
unauthorized immigrant neighbor. Are they criminals? Of course. But so are we
for a lot more superficial reasons than they are. We speed because we want to
get home to watch the game or trespass because there is unbelievable fishing on
the other side of the fence. I have traveled across Mexico and seen "kitchens"
with no roof and "nurseries" with no floor. We are talking about people who
clean up after us for pennies and pick our fruit in the midday sun to keep our
prices low. Why? Because they want a better life for their families. Should
they be punished, yes. But let's keep some perspective and make it fit the
crime. As long as coming here illegally is their only crime, paying taxes and a
large fine is appropriate. Unfortunately, most of you all call that reasonable
approach amnesty. You want blood for the crimes they didn't commit. You
confuse their service for the actions of a few, the MINORITY who are involved in
gangs and drugs who truly deserve no mercy.
Holy cow. At the time that I'm typing this comment, there are 77
other comments to this op-ed...and [nearly] 77 reasons why I'm so happy that my
family and I no longer live in Utah. This article is refreshingly
humane in its view of immigration, and the author should be commended. And +1 to the commenter who reminded us all that being undocumented is akin to
speeding or texting while driving. If you're willing to call yourself a criminal
whenever you're driving 80mph down I-15 at the point of the mountain, the you
can call undocumented immigrants criminals as well. Sometimes I'm
afraid that Utahans are so grossly right-leaning that they're going to throw the
earth off its axis.
Mr. Monson, here is a ‘reality-based’ approach. You stand on you
soap-box preaching, “It will require Utahans to check their emotions,
including their frustrations…,” while in the same breathe painting a
highly emotional scene of the plight of illegal foreign nationals, neighbors
ratting them out and disrupting families. In fact, you do not want
to hear the emotional side of jobless Americans and legal residents or the
financial burden absorbed by them because the ‘rule of law’ has been
ignored for twenty-four years. Your intent is to present your emotion driven
side of the story while closing your eyes and ears to the flip-side of the
(Cont'd) Even God leaves us to face consequences of our actions. Mercy is only
applied under certain conditions and only after Someone else paid the penalty of
bad actions. But the Savior’s mercy doesn’t resolve our
accountability to parties offended here on earth. It squares things up between
us and God.So is Mr. Monson volunteering to be held accountable for
all illegals? If so, what’s the price to be paid?Our freedom
and liberty are secured by lawfulness. By condoning lawlessness, Mr. Monson and
those like him place the security of our nation and our freedom at risk. The
majority of this nation’s people understand this.
What Mr. Monson has done, like others, is bring emotion (and the weightier
matter of mercy and grace) into the equation, forsaking the rule of law. They
all claim mercy trumps justice in this matter. In essence, they believe certain
people should not be held accountable for specific crimes.Various
groups of criminals in this nation would like this same mercy applied to their
misdeeds. If we’re fair, shouldn’t they also be granted mercy?
Aren’t they just as worthy of “compassion” as any other?But, can Mr. Monson (or those who agree with him) provide us an example
of how extending unbridled mercy (and no justice) to criminals results in a
better--and safer--society? I'm dealing now with a fellow who was
defrauded by one of his employees over an extended period of time. How would
exercising mercy benefit the fraudster, let alone his employer? Would it help
him think twice before doing it again? Understanding the severity of
the consequence of getting caught is one of the deterrents to fraud. Without
question, removing the consequence would only result in more fraud.
Re The Sensible MiddleHB2162 enforces the law equally. Everyone who is
discovered to be here illegally will be turned over to ICE for processing and
deportation. Japanese Americans were compensated. Americans living
in Japan and interned Japan were not.
I would remind all that EVERY family who breaks our laws to come here ALSO
breaks several other laws. AT THE VERY LEAST, every home has one "breadwinner"
who has taken a job AND in the process, stolen some citizen's ID, SSN, etc., in
order to get that job. THIS IS A FELONY!!!Mercy
requires justice. It CAN NOT EXIST without it!IF we believe in
being Christian, we MUST demand that our laws be followed. While it is okay to
feel kindly towards the criminal element among us (and yes, this includes
illegal aliens) it is absolutely necessary to help them figure out that we do
have laws - and that they HAVE TO BE followed.
The Arizona law is highly likely to cause profiling of hispanics and as such
should be rejected.White America can't keep asking minorities to
bear the burdens of laws they want.Japanese Americans lost all their
belongings when they were put into internment camps in WW2. There was no
provision in the law to make this up to them.I could go on, but this
is the year 2010, we should be past this. If there is a burden to suffer,
especially given our history, it is wrong to ask minorities to bear the burden
of solution to the problems, which is what the Arizona law would require.Arizona should draft a law, in which all people are at risk to suffer
equally, or where those minorities who do suffer are amply compensated,
otherwise, the law should be thrown out and not stand.
As patriots, we must do our part to preserve the climate of fear in this
country. Fear has always made America strong. Our country deserves no less than
every citizen living in apprehension. We can no longer rely solely on our
enemies to menace the populace–we must find that horror within ourselves.
You may say, "I am only one person. What can I do?" But all of our
efforts are needed if we are to maintain a state of constant anxiety. We can all
do more, but here is a good starting place: Twice a week, for at least 15
minutes, take the time to worry about any undocumented workers who may live in
your area; lose sleep each night thinking about our thousands of miles of
unguarded borders; stock up on water bottles and canned goods for no discernible
reason other than that vague sense that civilization will collapse any
second.Let's all come together as in fearful days of yore and do
what we must to keep America free from peace of mind once and for all.
'More states are attempting to pass Arizona type immigration law as we speak
and most of these aren't even border states. The Arizona law is gaining more and
more support and strength nation wide.' - 3:53 p.m. Wow. Az, Tx and Utah. Yeah, that's 'national' all right.
All kidding aside, I have not heard anything but center states even talk about
this. And considering no other state factually HAS passed it as of
yet except Az, I see no reason to worry. The states to pass it will
become Democrat states soon enough.
Let's get our parameters straight here: Are we talking about the kind of
Mexicans who get into knife fights, or the kind that smile and refill your
drink, cut your lawns, and clean your hotel room's toilets?
More states are attempting to pass Arizona type immigration law as we speak and
most of these aren't even border states. The Arizona law is gaining more and
more support and strength nation wide. Gutless Obama won't do anything until
after the November election because he fears losing Hispanic votes so he just as
soon let Arizona suffer as long as he gets his votes. Any more anything Obama is
for the American people are against .... not a good sign if you are a dem!!
The most important question conservatives have on their minds today is:If
the Mexicans are legalized, they can still be exploited, right?"
As a fifth-generation English/Swedish-American, I am opposed to any and all
immigration.(actually overheard at a social gathering recently)LOL!
Romney knew his company hired undocumented workers.He got caught and this
is what primarily cost him the GOP nomination.The statute of limitations
is still in effect.Make him an example to all the lawbreakers out their
who STILL have illegals working for them and throw them in prison.What is
it about "It's the law" they don't understand?
'Now try logic for a refreshing change.' - 2:54 p.m. Logic is that
97% of Americans are decended from immigrants. I'm willing to bet,
not all of them legal. And we are...against, the 12 million illegal
ones arleady in America...when our US military numbers 3 million.
Logic has nothing to do with this.
I yearn for the day when 100 percent of all workers are illegal immigrants and
we as a nation can devote all our time to complaining about them.
The American Dream is alive and well in Mexico. If people work hard, save their
money, and plan well, They will be able to send their children to a good
school–and who knows? If they study hard, perhaps they will get jobs
someday at the new plant General Motors is building in China.
@LOL, Romney hired a company that hired illegal workers. So when he found out,
he fired them? When you go out to eat in a restaurant, do you ask to
see the employee records before you eat?Sutherland is the school
voucher group. Their sudden interest in illegal immigration makes me curious as
Round them all up, send them to a 4-day bootcamp (babies too) and put them on
the ground in ship Iraq to fight insurgents.This will give them a chance
to do something more with their lives rather than breaking their backs working
in fields and cleaning toilets in hotel rooms.
Derek warns us to "check our emotions", meaning that we should not be emotional
about the illegal immigrant issue. But the entire thrust of his op-ed is that
our emotions must be brought into play for the illegals. So Derek, the only
emotions approved by you are the emotions you endorse. OK, let's leave
emotions out (since we're "checking" them at the door. That leaves logic. What
does logic tell us to do with those who break the law? Logic tells us that the
consequence of law-breaking is punishment. Only Derek's misplaced emotion tells
us that we should respond to law-breaking by ignoring the law.Derek, you
were right - we all need to "check our emotions". Now try logic for a
'So simple even a caveman can get it~!' - 2:37 p.m. A Geico
quote? Really? I thought better of you truth.
In fact, undocumented workers work was part of a regular pattern. Despite a
Globe story in Dec. 2006 that highlighted Romney's use of illegal immigrants to
tend to his lawn, Romney continued to employ the same landscaping company --
until today. The landscaping company, in turn, continued to employ illegal
immigrants.Romney knew of the company's continued practice of employing
illegal immigrants, and immediately fired it.The statute of limitations is
in effect.Romney has said that employers who knowingly hire illegal
immigrants should be penalized.Arrest the lawbreaker.
Pretty simple concept to grasp if you have a brain.......Illegal?
Go home and come back legal....Or stay and get arrested!So simple even a caveman can get it~!
Mitt Romney hired a local company to do his yard work (Community Lawn Service
with a Heart). The companies owner Ricardo Saenz (legal immigrant) hired the
illegal workers. (they were paid in cash)Now how is Romney
@Pagan:"So...immigration is comparable to...wall mart?"What's a wall mart?
@Ultra Bob:"Make them Americans with all rights and privileges and
obligations of other Americans. Any one who does not want to become an American
must leave."This was tried in 1986 by Reagan. It didn't work. All
it did was encourage more foreigners to pour over the border illegally."Hold officers and owners personally responsible for adhering to the law
voluntarily."Too funny! Holding someone responsible for voluntarily
action is an oxymoron.
wrz is correct."These are people ... people doing illegal things"So,
let's go to the source.Arrest Mitt Romney for having Greencard-less
workers working at his estate.It's the right thing to do.
@Reyndog:"What a bunch of objectifying bunch of (sic) individuals
you are. The point of the article... was that we should see these 'illegal
immigrants,' 'undocumented residents,' 'illegal aliens'.. as PEOPLE."They are people... people doing illegal things."[You]... are a
criminal anytime you go over the speed limit."True. Speed kills."You are a criminal if you text when you drive."True, in
states with applicable laws. If you are texting while driving you should be
pulled over and read the riot act."Do you turn in speeders?"Oh, yes! And drunk drivers as well.
President Dieter F. Uchtdorf When we are tempted to judge, let us
think of the Savior, who “loveth the world, even that he layeth down his
own life that he may draw all men unto him. . . . As I
read the scriptures, it appears that those who receive the Savior’s
strongest reproach are often those who hold themselves in high esteem because of
their wealth, influence, or perceived righteousness. On
one occasion the Savior taught a parable of two men who went into the temple to
pray. One man, a respected Pharisee, prayed: “God, I thank thee, that I am
not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this
publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.”
The other man, a hated publican, stood “afar off,
[and] would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his
breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.” And
Jesus said, “I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather
than the other.” In truth, we “all have
sinned, and come short of the glory of God.”
'Here's my Wal-Mart credit card... see how easy it is?' - 1:32 p.m. So...immigration is comparable to...wall mart? wrz, you can
I agree with Ultra Bob re: starting off with strict penalties for employers who
have undocumented workers on the payroll. And to make a point start off by
arresting conservative Mitt Romney who had undocumented workers working for him
at one of his mansions.This would make a great example for those
law-breakers.It's a law-of-the-land-thing.LOL!
@Pagan:"Can you show me your papers verifying your legal status
please? ...see how easy it is?"Here's my Wal-Mart credit card...
see how easy it is?
@Pagan:"Vickie, there was once fines charges against women who
voted. Held a credit score. Signed a contract."Those were the good
The solution to all these problems with illegal immigration could be solved by
the following:Make them Americans with all rights and privileges and
obligations of other Americans. Any one who does not want to become an American
must leave.Create and enforce regulations for all businesses
requiring the payment of proper wages, tax withholding and other employee
requirements including American citizenship. Hold officers and owners
personally responsible for adhering to the law voluntarily. Penalties for not
doing so would result in harsh criminal punishment for the officers and owners
of a business. Actually proper regulation of businesses would
solve a lot of other problems too.
Wanting to round up "undesirables" aka undocumented workers, who work for
born-in-America employees, is just a little bit like what the rationale was
during the 3rd Reich. Why not start off by making them wear the letter "I" on
their clothing? But leave the employees alone. They are your friends, neighbors
and Ward members.Sounds like there are many Gestapo candidates being
homegrown here in good ol' patriotic Utah.LOL!
@Pagan:"wrz, your arguments are hollow. Are YOU moving off native
American land?"Heck no. Why should I? I paid good wampum for
it."And 'no' I don't have stones. Mine are brass."Touche!
Pagan:"Are all illegal immigrants robbing a bank? No."Correct. That's step two. First they immigrate illegally. Then they rob
banks or steal something else to help pay their way."Would you
report a man sitting on his front lawn reading a newspaper?"If it
was the DNews? No.
@azresident:"The legal Hispanic immigrants and those illegal
immigrants who are abiding by the law (despite the fact that they entered the
country ILLEGALLY)..."So if I obey the speed limit as I drive away
from robbing a bank I'd be OK with bank robbing? Is that your point?"Unfortunately, laws are bent, broken, and trashed south of the border. Bribes
are commonplace. Drugs and human smugglers are also. Violence occurs daily."That's what we will be getting in this country if we let illegal
immigration continue unabated.
@Tom 9:59 a.m.:"So all my buddies who aided and abetted me in
discharging illegal fireworks are tarnished for life also?"Only if
it is illegal to discharge them. At which point you should be rounded up and
put in jail. Don't you know that illegal fireworks are dangerous? That's why
they are illegal, duh!
I hope we don't feel we must enact a similar law in Utah (because we don't need
it, we aren't a border state). But the reason I agree that getting tough and
sending_a_message to Mexico (and other countries sending their people to the
United States to lighten their social_services_burden) is... Even if it's NEVER
used... Even if nobody is ever profiled by the RACIST_Arizona_cops... Even if
nobody is deported as a result of this new law.... It AT LEAST sends a MESSAGE
to Governments and people who THINK America thinks it's OK for them to cross our
border illegally. And that they won't get caught. And even if they do... who
cares... A liberal lawyer will get you put to the front of the line and you will
be an instant full CITIZEN will all the benefits that are legend in Mexico.Currently many_in_Mexico are being told by their government AND their
friends, family, neighbors and church, that America doesn't REALLY care. IF you
can get there... and stay there... you become a statutory_citizen!We need to send the CLEAR message that it's NOT OK. This law does
'America was based on laws from the very beginning. Indians never owned the
land. They didn't have that concept.' - 11:03 a.m. Monsieur, I
really hope you were born in france. So because native americans
didn't have the concept of ownership, it was 'ok' to drive them from modern day
America? To put them on reservations. Kill them? Regardless of how you try to paint Native Americans as ignorant, WE
knew better, didn't we? Since we know better and know 'right and wrong' was it
'wrong' to put native peoples on reservations by force? Apparently,
you don't think so. Susan B. Anthony was a woman arrested
for...voting. She was fined $100. Please do not sit there and tell me America is
based on laws when a woman could not vote in 1872. Women didn't
'choose' to NOT own land.... often times women were comparable to
Tom, I suggest next time you take a ride, you visit the border and read the
signs. "Warning:All persons and vehicles must enter the United States at a
designated port of entry only. This is not a designated port of entry. Any
person or vehicle entering at this point is in violation of title 19 usc 1459
and or 19 usc 1433 and is subject to a $5,000 penalty. US Customs
Enforcement"Each entry after the first costs $10,000 and is a
felony. Working in the US is multiple felonies. Breaking the law also includes
deportation. There is a fine or punishment for fireworks, and one
for illegal immigration. If an American gets caught buying fireworks, he pays
the fine. If a person gets caught here illegally, they pay the fine and are
deported. We can't ignore our laws out of compassion. We would be a
Here is a better analogy:You wake up one morning to find someone has
broken into your home, to your surprise they are sleeping on your couch. When
you confront this person he explains he is a good person and just needs a place
to live, but there is a catch. The rest of his family needs a place to live as
well. He explains to you that he is a hard worker and has a job. At the same
time he exclaims that while he is living in your house he expects you to feed
him, educate his kids, and cover his medical costs, all at your expense. You
call the cops, when they show up they explain to you that even though this man
has broken into your home he has every right to the things he has requested. You
are going to have to provide the things he is asking for.This is
exactly how are government is treating illegal immigrants. Yes they might be
good people, but our country doesn't have the $$$ to pay for all of their needs.
Yet somehow Liberals have the mindset that we need to take care of them.
If we are going to talk about religion with regards to this issue, let's not
forget what Jesus said is the greatest law, upon which hang all the laws and the
prophets. If you have forgotten, John Charity Spring, let me refresh your
memory. "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." That's not a liberal ideal.
It's one that should be at the core of any Christian's values, republican or
democrat, north or south of the border. Frustrations at the lack of legislation
on the immigration issue, I can understand. But for those of you who feel
outright hatred, as is demonstrated in many of these comments, I would guess
that you don't know anyone in these situations. I do, and I have seen firsthand
how they have given the shirt off their backs and food from their own poor
tables to those in need. Many, in fact a vast majority of these "illegal aliens"
demonstrate an understanding of Christian teachings that far exceeds that of
many "born and bred" Americans that I know. "And now abideth faith, hope,
charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity."
Pagan makes up things as he goes along. There were never fines for women voting.
There was a time when they couldn't vote, but that was because voters had to be
landowners and women usually didn't own land. Non land-holding men couldn't vote
either. America was based on laws from the very beginning. Indians
never owned the land. They didn't have that concept. They just used it for their
benefit, frequently migrating from place to place. That they were pushed off
their lands is a sad fact, but true. But there was still no concept of
illegality...some broken treaties, yes.
First, the essential theme of the article -- illegal immigration is okay, even
desirable -- is not at all surprising coming from the pro-illegal Sutherland
Institute.Now, Derek: how's this for an exercise, somewhat patterned
after yours: Your neighbor, whose daughter is sick, confides to you
that earlier that afternoon, he robbed a bank, shoplifted, stole a woman's purse
when she wasn't looking, "lifted" the wallet of a fellow pedestrian in the
sidewalk, and burglarized a home in the neighborhood.Would you go
home and report your neighbor to law-enforcement authorities?Apparently, you wouldn't. After all, he simply was "searching for a better
life."And yes, lying, stealing, cheating, and trespassing, among
many other things the illegals do every day, ARE crimes, and ARE a problem, as
are the behaviors listed earlier.Obviously, Derek, you are
attempting to discredit, devalue, mock, and re-define the concept of "rule of
law" in your effort to rationalize illegal immigration and the employment of
illegals. Nice try.
By the way, for those of you who think all these people are criminals and that
Arizona, for example, is becoming crime infested because of these people who are
in the United States illegally, you may want to consider the fact that according
to the United States Bureau of Labor and Statistics, property crime in Arizona
is at its lowest point since 1966. Violent crime is at its lowest since 1971. By
the way, these statistics are from 2009 -- before Arizona instituted implemented
its new law. I absolutely hate it when facts get in the way of a
I can't believe some of the things I'm reading. What a bunch of objectifying
bunch of individuals you are. The point of the article, which most of you
clearly missed, was that we should see these "illegal immigrants", "undocumented
residents," "illegal aliens" or whatever you want to call them, as PEOPLE. The
are not criminals!!! If they are criminals, then you are a criminal anytime you
go over the speed limit. You are a criminal if you text when you drive. You are
a criminal when you let your dog run around without a license. You are a
criminal when you stop 1 inch past the stop line at an intersection. These
ordinances all carry the same weight. Do you turn in speeders? Texters? We're
all people and we need to treat each other as such. Then, and only then will we
be able to find a solution.
'And even if there were such laws, the American Indians were defeated multiple
times in war. They are a conquered people. (sic) Get over it.' - 10:35 a.m. Should we also 'get over' slavery? Women unable to vote? We
have many examples of oppression in American history. You ignore them at your
peril. I'm sorry you had bad experiences with illegal aliens. I have bad expierences with legal citizens, everyday! Should I deport
them? Like yourself. 'NevadaCoug' is a 'unsual' name. I
bet it's not your real name. Why would you hide your real name? I bet you have
something to hide. Maybe you commited a crime? Can you show me your
papers verifying your legal status please? ...see
how easy it is?
Actually the fine for crossing the border is 50 to 250 dollars and possible 6
months in jail. the fine for illegal fireworks is 1000 dollars and poss. 6
months in jail.
As far as the people who feel sorry for illegal immigrants:So the next
time a legal citizen robs a bank, should we just let him get away with it?
Because hey, he only broke the law (stole all that money) so he could provide a
better life for his family..........
Pagan, the claim that most of the immigrants to this country were "illegal" is
just plain false. Would you please point out to me the laws that were in place
that made the original English, Spanish, and French colonists "illegal"? I'd
like to see them.And even if there were such laws, the American
Indians were defeated multiple times in war. They are a conquered people. That
may be harsh, but that is the way it has been throughout history. One people
decides they want a piece of land and either purchase it or they fight a war to
take it. Get over it.I've worked with several illegal aliens, or
some that I suspected but didn't know for sure. Many of them had no respect for
the law whatsoever. Like the guy who bragged about how many beers he drank
while driving from Wendover to SLC. Or the guy who couldn't understand why the
police wanted to impound his car when he didn't have a valid Utah driver's
licence, nor registration, nor insurance. He kept saying, "I have a Mexican
driver's license." Why isn't that good enough?
'Do you understand that although they both carry fines, there are marked
differences in accompanying punishment?' - 10:17 a.m. Vickie, there
was once fines charges against women who voted. Held a credit
score. Signed a contract.
Redshirt:Your analogy was masterful. I wish people would stop
drumming up hypotheticals dripping with emotion. We get it; these people are
looking for a better life, they are humans too, yada, yada, yada. How about respecting our laws and partaking in America's greatness in
accordance with the laws of the land? How about respecting America enough to
obey her laws? How about leaving needless emotion out of the argument and focus
on the laws? How about leaving and coming back the right way and
find a country read to welcome you with open arms?
Tom, Christian values also echo rendering unto Caesar, and obeying the Ten
commandments. When does the preaching start telling people to obey the laws of
the land, not stealing or lying? Fireworks? Working in this country
illegally creates multiple felonies. I suggest you find a better analogy since
people are not deported for firing off fireworks, but they are for crossing the
border. Do you understand that although they both carry fines, there are marked
differences in accompanying punishment?
wrz, your arguments are hollow. Are YOU moving off native American
land? Didn't think so. And 'no' I don't have stones. Mine are brass.
'Are you saying that if you see someone robbing a bank you shouldn't call the
police?' - 9:42 a.m. Are all illegal immigrants robbing a bank? No. The example stands. Would you report a man sitting on
his front lawn reading a newspaper? Because you think he is an
When you were a child you probably heard the platitude, "one bad apple spoils
the whole bunch." Or perhaps something along the line of "you're going to ruin
it for everybody." Like most platitudes, there is truth to them.The
legal Hispanic immigrants and those illegal immigrants who are abiding by the
law (despite the fact that they entered the country ILLEGALLY) are fuming over
the actions of the illegals who are breaking the law, costing the taxpayers of
Arizona big bucks, and in our news on a daily basis. Some speak out, others dare
not.Unfortunately, laws are bent, broken, and trashed south of the
border. Bribes are commonplace. Drugs and human smugglers are also. Violence
occurs daily. You would think it is the Middle East. Just recently the Nogales
Chief of Police and his bodyguard were shot. Off duty officers who stopped a
drug deal have been threatened---these are U.S. officers! It's a different
culture and some escape it, others bring it with them. Come on down. Spend
some time. See for yourself.
So all my buddies who aided and abetted me in discharging illegal fireworks are
tarnished for life also?
@Pagan 9:04 a.m.:"Giving legal authority to call into question a
persons legal status based on 'reasonable suspicion' aka, sight, to me is
unreasonable...Federal ICE (Immigration & Customs Enforcement) does
it. Is that not OK?"Current America was built on the lands of
Native Indians."May I suggest that you make it right by moving off
their property?"Don't forget we have boarders with Canada as well.
Is it hypocritical to focus on one boarder and ignore others?"Good
point. Minnesota is being flooded with immigrants... from Somalia...
Muslims... Many illegal."Keep our boarders secure, yes. But kick
out 12 million illegal immigrants. Good luck with that."No need to
kick them out. Just enforce immigration labor laws... which laws make it
illegal to hire illegals. Do that, take awake the incentive, and they will go
home on their own."Considering most of us descend from illegal
immigrants, I have no stones to throw."You have no stones? How do
"Would you go home and report your neighbor and his family to federal
immigration authorities?" - ArticleAre you saying that if you see
someone robbing a bank you shouldn't call the police? You are required to
report lawbreaking. Otherwise you could be accused of aiding and abetting.Example: 'A person charged with aiding and abetting or accessory is
usually not present when the crime itself is committed, but he or she has
knowledge of the crime before or after the fact...For example, Andy
draws a floor plan of a bank, knowing of Dan's intention to rob it. After Dan
commits the robbery, Alice agrees to let him store the stolen money at her
house. Both Andy and Alice can be charged with aiding and abetting, or acting as
accessories to the robbery.'
@IndependentLiberal 7:30 a.m.:"There ARE better way (sic) of
controlling immigration than 'Adverse Information.'"How? Please
Here's a quick thought exercise for you...Say your neighbor with the
sick kid and all the rest of his family and friends decided they liked your home
and decided to move in with you uninvited.Would you ask them to make
themselves at home?
Giving legal authority to call into question a persons legal status based on
'reasonable suspicion' aka, sight, to me is unreasonable at all.
Since America is made up of 97% of descendants from immigrants, I fail to see
this line of thinking making any kind of sense. Current America was
built on the lands of Native Indians. 'Finish the dang wall' Don't forget we have boarders with Canada as well. Is it hypocritical
to focus on one boarder and ignore others? What about the various
bases America has outside this country? Keep our boarders secure,
yes. But kick out 12 million illegal immigrants. Good luck with
that. Since our military runs around 3 million we factually do not
have the means to kick out EVERY illegal immigrant. Considering most
of us descend from illegal immigrants, I have no stones to throw.
Focus on the problem. Those that hire illegal immigrants rather than pay a legal
citizen minimum wage. I'm not advocating a 'free ride' either. But
considering that most Americans cannot pass the citizenship test, again, I have
no stones to throw. Think before throwing them from your glass
The ignorance of our constitution by conservatives is frightening. The federal
government controls immigration laws. Notice this conservative's
poorly developed reading comprehension."Every law enforcement agency
in California shall fullycooperate with the United States Immigration and
Naturalization Service regarding any person who is arrested"Notice
the person must have been arrested for a crime. There is no provision under the
law to stop, detain or ID a person who has not been arrested and is being
processed for a commission of a crime.
It is kind of funny, We here all the cries about us being a "Christian Nation"
when it furthers our ideological bent, but when some one calls for compassion
and understanding and interjects Christian values it is said that religion does
not have a place in the law. When I was a young man and went to Wyoming to get
illegal fireworks and discharged them in Utah during the 4th of July I committed
a crime with a greater penalty than coming across the border undocumented. I
believe that I have tyred to repent of my crime, though some may question if I
have since I have not turned myself into the police. Coming across the border
undocumented in not the unpardonable sin. They are real human beings. Most of
them are very good people just like most Utah natives are very good people.
Illegal immigrants ARE NOT law abiding citizens. They are chronic law breakers
and criminals. They do not have the right to break the law in order to achieve a
better life any more than a bank robber or a drug dealer. And they certainly
don't have the right to do it in a foreign country.
ICE does not respond to anyone reporting their neighbor. Pure hyperbole meant to
solicit a sympathetic response. Thanks to NAFTA, Mexico's economy has become the
14th best in the world. We have helped them. My family and neighbors
have moved many times to where the work is. The conjecture of breaking up
families is unfounded. Compassion is extended on a personal level.
Law enforcement is the Governments job. We can all be compassionate towards
those here illegally, but still let law enforcement do their job. Or
do you champion the removal of all law enforcement on compassionate grounds?
Derek Monson got the analogy totally wrong. It should be that your hispanic
neighbor had a sick child. It was the middle of the night, and rather than
waking you and asking for help, he breaks into your house and takes what he
needs. The next day, you find out that his daughter is sick, and when you ask
him if he needs help, he tells you he already helped himself to your
medications.What do you do, do you just let it go, or do you call
Mr. Monson had better get after California ALSO. That state has a document
called the California Penal Code. I would encourage all citizens and illegal
immigrants to find the California Penal Code 834b on the internet. It has
probably been California law for years. Here is part of their law concerning
ILLEGALS."834b. (a) Every law enforcement agency in California shall
fullycooperate with the United States Immigration and NaturalizationService regarding any person who is arrested if he or she issuspected of
being present in the United States in violation offederal immigration
laws.(b) With respect to any such person who is arrested, and suspectedof being present in the United States in violation of federalimmigration
laws, every law enforcement agency shall do thefollowing:(1) Attempt
to verify the legal status of such person"..."(2) Notify the person
of his or her apparent status as an alienwho is present in the United
States in violation of federalimmigration laws and"..."3)
Notify the Attorney General of California and the UnitedStates Immigration
and Naturalization Service"...Not much difference between OLD
California law and Arizona law that MAY go into effect soon.
If you were a REAL Christian and you REALLY want to help, you would research our
immigration laws and see if you could sponsor this family (or whatever it takes)
to help them become LEGAL, because, as stated by Ett, they are "illegal aliens"
- period! And, please, do read the Arizona law before offering your opinion
As a Deacon in a small Baptist church on the west side of the valley, I can say
without hesitation, if I was approached for assistance and was told that they
were illegal aliens, I couldn’t even think of turning them in.There ARE better way of controlling immigration than “Adverse
1st, they don't live in your neighborhood.2nd, if we act like we
care enough to financially destroy our system by continuing to pretend like we
can afford to take care of everybody on earth, then we will not be able to take
care of ourselves or others.
Obviously anyone can make up stories to fit their point of view. And it is easy
to understand why a conservative would favor immigration of cheap labor. What I don’t understand is why the poster “Ett” would
label an article from a conservative as liberal.
Ett is correct. This writer invokes religion as an excuse for breaking the law.
And yet, he ignores the Christian requirement to honor, sustain, and uphold the
law." It is outrageous th claim that anything in Christian doctrine supports
illegal doctrine.When East Germany still existed,all Christian
religions which where present there taught the members that they must obey the
law and must not illegally emigrate out of the country.The Founding
Fathers established this Country as a place where obedience to the law is
paramount. All persons who are present in this Country must obey this doctrine.
The best reason to oppose the law is that it alienates hispanics from law
inforcement wheather they are legal or not. Even if you are legal yourself they
don't want to talk to police anymore for fear of attracting attention to friends
and family or being suspected in thier deportation. If the gangs weren't nad
enough to keep people from talking now they have to worry about being separated
from thier kids and family.Crime is going to run rampant and the
police won't get any help. Good job.
For the record, they aren't "undocumented residents". The proper term is
Your articke is a typical liberal response. You obviously haven't read the law.
I have and your scenario isn't possible under the letter of the Arizona law.
Maybe you should actually read and understand it before writing uninformed
articles about it. Your sort of ignorance is frightening.