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Rapping order at American Fork McDonald's not a crime, judge rules

Judge rules Am. Fork teen who rapped his order was no threat

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  • Dr L
    May 31, 2010 11:04 p.m.

    When people engage in business with the public, there is a reasonable expectation that they are dealing with people who are not perfect, or will not live up to their exact standard of expectation. This comes from principle of law known as The Reasonable Prudent Person Doctrine.

    Where no actual danger is proven, accrording to the Facts, none can be claimed.

    Claiming it as "private property" at one turn, but allowing law enforcement officers liberties upon that same property (which all public restaurants do, one way or the other) runs fowl on the supposition that an owner is entitled to make demands, no matter how far from the exercise of the Common Law it may be, simply because he/she/it owns the property in question.

    The Common Law is, historically, the Law of the Commoners. The "system" does not like the Common Law, anymore, because it tends to oppose absolute conrols, absolutely.

    Only a Jury, a Trier of Fact, has a right to examine the facts and determine what the Verdict (True Word) should be. But in 1670 in England, in the case of William Penn, we learn something else.

  • Dr L
    May 31, 2010 10:51 p.m.

    I am both an attorney at law and a law professor. I teach many of those who become JDs or JYDs.

    The case involving the teenage rappers reflects a problem, though not a unique one, that currently plagues our society. There are those that we shall categorize as Constitution Protesters, because we have devolved to look to the lower laws, even the lowest of those things that we refer to as laws, and have no idea what a Constitution does, or what the dangers are when we have none to rely on.

    Article IV, Section 4 is supposed to represent our Guarantee for a Republican Form of Government. The same as with a Warranty. Warranted. Not open for compromise, or discussion.

    A Republican Form of Government is about Law and Law alone. Because it is, it denies or prohibts all other forms, as false forms, that approach the idea of True Government itself.

    This includes, opinions, beliefs, policies, ideas, theories, tastes, impressions, upbringings, notions, whims, feelings, speculations, views, a number of other similar elements, and even "practices."

    They all FAIL Article IV, Section 4 of the U.S. Constitution. continued...

  • Moses
    May 20, 2010 10:39 a.m.

    I think that McDonald's Legal got to the manager and they had to change the Reason she called from the rap to something that was more Politically correct. The manager has given 4 different versions of what happened. Wow! Who is lying? The fact is the manager asked them to leave and they did. They did not drive recklessly in the parking lot as the prosector tried to show in his feeble attempt to go forward. The video tapes do not show any of what Mr Wright claimed happened. So who is lying now? Justice was served.Let's let it go!!!!

  • O'really
    May 19, 2010 8:33 p.m.

    Did the article say the boys rapped in the courtroom? Missed that somehow.

    Solomon- not sure where you're going with this. No one was physically harmed. If anyone was emotionally harmed they need to grow some thicker skin. Me thinks you're taking this situation WAY too seriously and way over-applying the need for law and order in this case. This was a harmless prank. That's all.

  • Solomon
    May 19, 2010 3:44 p.m.

    Re:dricha65

    "I would like someone to rap a case in this judges courtroom. As a business owner I feel that my rights to conduct business are being taken away."

    A person who behaved like these boys did in his court room would be charged with contempt of the court and disorderly conduct. Imagine the store manager deciding to rap her testimony and jurors having difficulty understanding her and the Judge ordering the witness to give testimony properly or leave the witness stand and she refused to comply to make a point.

    Or if the prosecutor decided that in order to get the judge to understand he needed to rap for the entire trial so the judge could understand just how annoyed people could get. This judge's bias is clearly seen in his ruling. I can guarantee that if these were 4 black boys that they would have likely received jail time for their actions.

    Let's not forget the cases of Professor Gates who was arrested on his property for disorderly conduct and Sky Blu who was physically assaulted by former Presidential candidate Mitt Romney was escorted off a plane even though the Romney's were disorderly.

  • Solomon
    May 19, 2010 3:25 p.m.

    Re:The Sensible Middle

    "To say this is private property so the owner of the business can do what ever they want is off the mark. This is a place of public accomidation."

    If it's a public place then disorderly conduct is defined as any acts intended to cause or create a "public inconvenience, annoyance, or alarm." It's clear that is what these boys did or intended to happen.

    Cashiers, fast food workers and customers don't have to be inconvenienced because of the choices of others. Their attorney suggests that freedom of speech allows someone to use profanity but it doesn't prevent conviction for disorderly conduct and many state's statutes explicitly include the use of profane language in a public place in the definition of disorderly conduct.

    Had this occurred in a sit down restaurant which was busy and other customers were waiting for the waitress to assist them would you argue that their refusal to order properly or leave wasn't disorderly conduct and trespassing that could annoy and inconvenience another customer. Disorderly conduct and trespassing laws are intended to prevent someone having to use their fists to deal with jerks.

  • Solomon
    May 19, 2010 3:09 p.m.

    Re:procuradorfiscal

    "From the facts laid out in the story, proper exercise of prosecutorial discretion probably should have seen this individual charged with both disorderly conduct and trespassing."

    That's because he committed both offenses and should have been charged with both. It's not right when the law is applied unfairly and one person can end up in jail for doing something similar to this yet these boys can get off for essentially the same acts others are convicted of.

    Have we already forgotten the case of Professor Gates who was arrested and forced to plead guilty to disorderly conduct for making a "your momma" comment to police and being rude to them on his own property. According to this attorney hurling profanities is freedom of speech but insulting a police officer's momma apparently is something you can get arrested. Doesn't anyone find it the least bit interesting that the arrest of Gates was defended by the majority on this forum but now the majority denounce the arrest of 4 white boys for doing worse?

    Is it a coincidence that most of the conviction for disorderly conduct seem to be of minorities?

  • Solomon
    May 19, 2010 2:42 p.m.

    Re:cynic

    "I just can't get over the number of people with no legal training whatsoever who insist they know the law better than the judge who heard this case. Get over yourselves people."

    I am an attorney so I have the right to disagree with another attorney including one that is also temporarily serving as a Judge and especially so since the Judge is wrong.

    Just because a Judge issues a ruling doesn't make it the right one. Those who agree with this Judge and defend his ruling without any knowledge of the law themselves are the ones who need to get over themselves. It may make you feel good to agree with someone you see as an authority figure but I went to law school with people who went on to become judges and there weren't special then and they aren't special now.

    Just because I went to law school doesn't make me right and just because this guy went to law school and became a Judge doesn't make him right. Do you agree with every Supreme Court Justice or Judge even when they disagree with each other? Are you schizophrenic?

  • LuVePacifica
    May 19, 2010 1:10 p.m.

    They are teenagers I think the whole Story is Funny.
    I dont care too much for RAP music either.
    Teens only thought it was a Joke.
    I Leave as is They(Are sorry paid a fine only)

    Least no one was Hurt in food order story!

  • A Guy With A Brain
    May 19, 2010 12:55 p.m.

    I don't like rap.

    Actually can't stand it.

    But this was the right decision.

    A teenage act of silliness and humor.

    Who of us has not done something similar in intent when we were younger?

  • giantfan
    May 19, 2010 12:49 p.m.

    I hope he enjoyed his 15 minutes of fame.

  • Say What?
    May 19, 2010 12:41 p.m.

    KSL should invite this kid to do the rap and put it on the news and online.

  • cynic
    May 19, 2010 12:01 p.m.

    I just can't get over the number of people with no legal training whatsoever who insist they know the law better than the judge who heard this case. Get over yourselves people.

  • maidenwings
    May 19, 2010 11:44 a.m.

    I think the whole RAPPING
    Beat should be a COMMERCIAL!!!!

  • Fredd
    May 19, 2010 11:38 a.m.

    The manager and the police said the rapping wasn't the problem. So all of you, "it's my business I should be able to run it my way" folks are wrong. She said they behaved threateningly when they left and she felt threatened. The video disproved that.

  • ironmania
    May 19, 2010 11:27 a.m.

    The irony is that half of the time I go through the McDonald's drive-thru, I cannot understand a single thing that the employee is saying over the intercom or they don't understand me. Usually either the speaker system is damaged, or the employee is speaking English as a second language. I have to repeat my order up to 3 times.

    McDonald's should just institute a new policy that all orders must be placed in Spanish.

  • LuVePacifica
    May 19, 2010 10:46 a.m.

    Leave it to tenagers..They have Apologized in interview He Will not ever do that again to PROVOKE an employee takout a meal..
    I thought it was nothing but a JOKE/rapping away
    As the mcDs personal did not like it all.

  • UC Tom
    May 19, 2010 10:13 a.m.

    This happens all of the time in American Fork. The police and city prosecutor think they can get away with frivolous charges against these young men because many of them are going on missions and do not have the time for a lengthy court proceeding. Many young men end up pleading guilty to bogus charges and paying a fine just to get their legal issues cleared so they can serve a mission. In my opinion the police department is committing extortion against these young men. Somebody should investigate!

  • VIDAR
    May 19, 2010 10:07 a.m.

    re: procuradorfiscal

    yea, well the problem is that the judge, and law does not agree with your point.

  • procuradorfiscal
    May 19, 2010 9:31 a.m.

    Whatever this case may be about, it is NOT about the First Amendment!

    The First Amendment does NOT give anyone the right to clog up a place of commerce located on private property, harming the business position of the landowner and preventing others from conducting their business, in a presumptuous and thoughtless attempt to advance some juvenile cause.

    From the facts laid out in the story, proper exercise of prosecutorial discretion probably should have seen this individual charged with both disorderly conduct and trespassing. And proper trial advocacy and the exercise of proper judicial discretion would have seen him convicted of at least one of those offenses.

  • lifeOnEarth
    May 19, 2010 8:41 a.m.

    funny..they never really done no harm.
    The employee said to speak clear on food order/or LEAVE!
    They Did not of course this was aJOKE some way of thier own way of dumb humor!!

  • gnrl39
    May 19, 2010 8:37 a.m.

    .....and it took all this time, effort and money to figure this out.....

  • Pagan
    May 19, 2010 8:28 a.m.

    This was a joke.

    Oh, and the rapping too.

  • rlsintx
    May 19, 2010 8:20 a.m.

    anyone get their mouth washed out by their mom ?
    lol

  • John20000
    May 19, 2010 8:09 a.m.

    All I have to add is "lighten up" geeez.

  • Hallsy
    May 19, 2010 8:04 a.m.

    Waste of resources

  • michaelitos
    May 19, 2010 7:34 a.m.

    I think Soren Kierkegaard best summed up this case when he said:

    "People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought, which they seldom use."

  • JoeBlow
    May 19, 2010 4:20 a.m.

    Don't these kids know that you should never aggravate a food worker unless you have your food in hand first?

  • Critical Thought
    May 19, 2010 3:40 a.m.

    And which nation on Earth has the largest percentage of it citizens in jail? This wasn't a fight worth picking. Complete waste of resources.

  • The Sensible Middle
    May 19, 2010 2:34 a.m.

    To say this is private property so the owner of the business can do what ever they want is off the mark. This is a place of public accomidation.

    To get upset for someone rapping an order indicates the people running this business need to find an other line of employment, away from the public.

  • dricha65
    May 19, 2010 1:55 a.m.

    I would like someone to rap a case in this judges courtroom. As a business owner I feel that my rights to conduct business are being taken away.

  • Another Perspective
    May 18, 2010 11:19 p.m.

    The kid ought to sue McDonalds and the police department. This is a lot of hassle he didn't deserve to have.

  • Commoner
    May 18, 2010 10:30 p.m.

    Solomon, make up your mind, either they were on private property or they were in a public place, it can not be both.
    Obviously they were not in a public place, therefore the law clearly does not apply. The appropriate law for someone who will not leave private property after permission to be there is trespass, not disorderly conduct.

  • Solomon
    May 18, 2010 8:41 p.m.

    This boy was on PRIVATE PROPERTY and the article makes it clear that they ignored "a request to order normally or leave." The moment they chose not to comply with that request or leave they were guilty of disorderly conduct and trespassing and should have been charged and CONVICTED.

    Those who are criticizing the McDonald's manager, police and prosecutor should give us their legal definition of disorderly conduct because Utah's legal definition in part is:

    "A person is guilty of disorderly conduct if: (b) intending to cause public inconvenience, annoyance, or alarm, or recklessly creating a risk thereof, he:...(ii) makes unreasonable noises in a public place;...or (iv) obstructs vehicular or pedestrian traffic...(3) Disorderly conduct is a class C misdemeanor if the offense CONTINUES AFTER A REQUEST BY A PERSON TO DESIST. Otherwise it is an infraction."

    These boys were guilty of disorderly conduct because they a) obstructed vehicular traffic after being instructed to order properly or leave, and b) made "unreasonable noises" in a public place which was intended to cause public inconvenience and annoyance.

    To argue that this is a free speech issue is wrong. It's a private property issue.

  • MeSaszee
    May 18, 2010 6:55 p.m.

    Spenser DID NOT Rap! Spenser DID NOT Swear! Spenser drove the car! He has been accused of ALL of it, but his part was very minimal! He became the target of the media because he was the ONLY ONE that was 18!

    The McDonald's manager, Ilene Timoko, lied and LIED SOME more (probably at the advice of McD's Legal Dept), only to be proven WRONG as the video's played! She walked to the building, and only when she was UP ON THE CURB, is when Spenser chose to drive away--WHEN SHE WAS SAFE! HE NEVER YELLED ANY OBSCENITIES TO THIS WOMAN! She stated she "felt" like the boys were following her!

    This boy should be Exonerated! His reputation has been tainted, and integrity challenged for the past 8 MONTHS! Not a way to live, if you ask me!

    Isn't there a charge for the manager for FALSE ARREST? Sue them! Sue them GOOD!

  • @Charles
    May 18, 2010 6:34 p.m.

    City Prosecutor Kasey Wright needs a dose of reality. Of course it was a case of wasted resources. Anyone with common sense could have told him that.

    Does this guy have a license to practice law? If so, it should be revoked for stupidity!

    I hope the boys go back through that same McDonald's tonight and rap the same order!!!

  • mark
    May 18, 2010 5:14 p.m.

    Very funny, the McDonalds marketing does it's best to make the place some sort of youthful hip hop urban thing and you've got a manager that calls the cops cause someone raps an order? Priceless.

    And the cop actually cited this kid?! You've got to be kidding. Note to self: never visit American Fork. Stay far, far away from it.

  • VIDAR
    May 18, 2010 4:38 p.m.

    Mcdonalds needs to get a sense of humor.
    The marketing department could have turned the whole thing into a cool commercial.
    The teenagers in American Fork should all go to Burger King.