Comments about ‘Not yet ready for college’

It is tradition for college professors to whine about the incoming students.

It makes them feel needed and important.

The problem is we expect EVERYONE to go to college these days.

Some people aren't cut out for it.

It's not just the college professors. High school teachers whine about the incoming freshmen and junior high/middle school teachers whine about incoming 6th or 7th graders. The problem is that we're taking the responsibility of education away from the students and placing it on the teachers and parents.

As someone who teaches at the college level, I can say that it is somewhat disheartening to see freshmen who have never been pushed academically. But I will also say that whether or not a student needs a remedial class is hardly an indicator of their success in college. In fact, the key to succeeding in college is really quite simple: go to class and do the homework. I can tell that the coursework is considerably harder for some of the students to grasp than for others, but in the end, the better grades go to those I see each week, and who come prepared having done the reading. The biggest problem is actually the sense of entitlement, when students come in at the end of the quarter and expect me to provide a way for them to still get a good grade, even though they haven't worked at all along the way.

This is proof that our current "government skool" program is a dismal failure, compared to 50 years ago.

Instead of throwing money to satisfy the demands of the teachers union and educator bureaucracy, we need to demand higher standard in terms of results.

Tenure needs to be abolished, and teachers need to be given greater disciplinary power.

The noble but unworkable concept of "mainstreaming" the retarded into regular classes needs to end as it is a waste of money and drags down the progress of the other students. We need to eliminate the "fluff" course and the ability of high school students to skip classes with impunity.

The federal Department of education needs to be abolished- entirely.

Don't like those ideas? Well, our high school graduates today are proving that the present system is broken, and decayed badly from our prior standards, and by comparison with other nations.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Isn't this just a commentary on how bad the "modern" teaching practices are?

My child was in the public education system until we could see that the current teaching methods are just a way for teachers to mark the box for teaching a subject. My child had mastery of nothing, yet was taught everything.

We need to eliminate many of the tests that teachers spend thier time prepping the kids to take, and teach the kids.

I would like to echo some of the thoughts of OHBU from a former student’s perspective. I entered college unprepared but I took a couple remedial classes got up to speed and know have a graduate degree so it is possible. I have also seen the sense of entitlement that OHBU is talking about and again as a former student it use to make me very angry when these people would show up and want to write a two page paper and get the same grade I had worked hard to all semester to get. I always respected the professors that would stand up to them, say no and preserve the integrity of the school.
I often supervise interns in my current work and what I have come to realize is that one of the big issues in my profession at least is that kids coming out of high school straight into college really do not have the life experience to deal with the rigors of a good college education. The best students I have worked with are always the ones that have some time between when they graduate high school and begin college working and gaining life experience.

OHBU makes important points. We see time and again that some families will have successful students, regardless of whether their schools are top-grade or mediocre, and we seem some families who have very poor students regardless of the school. Students who are driven and work will find ways to succeed, regardless.

This is not to excuse the mediocre schools and teachers. Educators must have a mind-frame of doing everything they reasonably can to help the average and struggling students. It is a key part of their job. Our society expects and needs educators to make a difference.

But case by case, the responsibility lies with the student and family.

DN subscriber sounds just like my local eagle forum legislator.

If the school system is so broken, why do we continue to lead the world?

You probably don't have any kids but if you did, you would know that any student that tries is leaps and bounds ahead of where students were 20 years ago.

My kids are taking Geometry in 8th grade and calculus in 11th grade. They know more science than my generation ever did. Their spelling is horrible but I blame that on technology more than anything the schools didn't do.

Any student with decent, involved parents can get an excellent education in the USA. In Utah it is even better.

The only ones crying about a broken system are the ones that have no independent thought. They just follow the Stossels and Limbaughs. They believe whatever they hear on talk radio or see on t.v.

Go do a little research and see what is really happening in our schools.

My father-in-law was a professor in education. When we moved to a new state we asked him what should we look for in order to find good schools for our children? He simply said, "buy a home in the most affluent area you can afford."

And, he was right. High SAT scores are correlated with parent's educational attainment and income level. These parents are move involved and more demanding of their school districts. My children were well prepared academically for college. I feel for school districts where families are struggling to meet the needs and challenges of daily life and schools which suffer from a lack of funding.

I do agree with altering or abolishing the tenure system. I've seen some poor teachers keep their jobs, year after year simply because they had tenure. I've also noticed kids who don't have a involved parent getting these poor teachers year after year--because the principal knows the parent isn't going to complain. We also need a better system for evaluating our schools than simply testing.

20% taking a remedial course isn't too bad. Part of the problem is that high schools don't want to teach remedial courses. It seems like we should be using the high schools for that & pushing the motivted ones towards college.

Well here's the problem: we keep trying to dumb down math. It used to be that if one needed a math class in college, one took it from the math department - shudder, horrors! But we learned the material. Now we have math just for psychologists, for socialogists, for business majors, all to avoid taking the real stuff. Several years back I pinch hit for a teacher in a business calculus class. Not knowing where they were I developed proofs for all of the common differentiation formulas to get started. The response of the students? They threw may handouts up in the air and walked out! They were determined to do math by memorization. They had no understanding of the material at all.

If I am faced with either paying tuition at a private school so that I am prepared for college, or paying tuition for remedial college courses, I'll go with the remedial courses. It's more cost-effective. In fact, why can't kids just leave high school and get started on the remedial college courses right away? Why do they have to waste their time with high school if it doesn't do them any good anyway?

We also have to consider that 50 years ago, not everyone went to college. Only the best and brightest did. Now, everyone goes to college. And we're surprised that some people don't measure up?

"...not everyone went to college. Only the best and brightest did. " Be careful here. Often only those went who thought they belonged there, even if they were bright enough. I had a hard time the first two years at the "U," because I was a poor westside kid who didn't think he belonged. But I did get a pretty decent math prep at West High, particularly from Mr. Hinckle (any West Highers remember him). God bless those old West High math instructors! Teachers can make all the difference.

I have a feeling I am slightly older then you marxist but I remember some wonderful teachers at west, sadly many of my friends never got the chance to go to college even those that where "the best and the brightest" as independent asserts because of the financial realities many of their families faced. I was very fortunate to have had the chance to attend college and frankly I think I appreciated it more and got more out of it then many (but certainly not all) of the people I went to college with because they grow-up knowing their families could send them to college and seemed to feel it was their birth right. I experienced many of the types of students that OHBU is talking about and it was very frustrating for me as well when I worked hard all quarter and then someone would march in and expect to be given an easy ride at the end.

@Independent 1:29

"Why do they have to waste their time with high school if it doesn't do them any good anyway?"

I think you missed the critical point here. Most high schools do a fine job preparing students for college, if the student is motivated and takes appropriate courses.

It is very possible for a student to skate by with the bare minimum, especially in the senior year, just enough to graduate but without being ready for college. The high school's primary focus is a diploma. Only some percentage of the students will go on to college, and that group has to step up and do more than the minimum required to graduate. But very often high-schoolers (sometimes enabled by parents) will be lulled into taking the easy road with those not preparing for college, and then try to skip over and join the other group and go to college anyway. Then comes the reality check.

Interesting, it was only a few months ago when our dear Senator Buttars was suggesting we eliminated an entire grade from HS. Interesting.

I find it ironic that some professors critisice incoming students for their lack of motivation. Could it be that students want to study what they want to do? Instead, we're forced to take a bunch of General Education classes that often times have nothing to do with the student's interests, career, or major.

Perhaps we should adjust our system to be more direct? Eliminate the GE requirements. If a student wants to before a history teacher, let only take philosophical and history courses. Likewise, why should an engineer be forced to take history or biology classes?

A student would then only need 2-3 years of college instead of 4.

Of course, universities would never do that, too much money involved! The same people that complain about the system will fight tooth and nail to keep it the way it is. They know where their gravy train is.

@The Real Maverick,

Unfortunately, you represent the rather narrow view many hold. The fatal flaw in your argument is that you seem to put too much credence in the divisions between departments in a University. It is often the collaboration between these areas that lead to some of the greatest discoveries. Do you really not see the benefits of engineers knowing some biology? Have you ever heard of an artificial heart valve?
Also, there are schools that are much more narrowly focused...they're called trade schools. The reason University diplomas are more respected and lead to higher wages is that employers recognize the value of having a well-rounded individual who has been challenged to think critically in different settings. Sure, many of the GEC courses will never become directly relevant, but many will.
Finally, the other major problem with no GEC classes is that it forces a kid to make a decision on his life career before he or she has really been exposed to much of the world. There's a reason GEC courses lead to so many people changing their majors.

I went to college right out of high school and was shocked to realize that I was completely unprepared. I seem to have skated by in school, and suddenly the U of U was asking me to study and try harder. I was surprised at how easy it was to get As in high school only to turn around and struggle to get even passing grades at the U. I dropped out after a few semesters.

Now I'm back, but at SLCC, working towards a BS in CS. I was definitely not ready for college right out of high school and I know that a large part of the blame falls directly on my shoulders. I thought I could skate through college as easily as I had in high school, but this was not the case.

On a mostly unrelated topic, textbook prices are out of control insane. For all the crying about how school tuition keeps jumping up, someone needs to examine textbooks. No textbook should cost $150.

Homework in college. Well, homework I guess was doing research papers and projects. But other than that there wasn't homework. A typical class was 2-3 test, final, project/paper. It is interesting that today college has turned into high school, professors "taking attendance" assigning quizzes and homework and even offering extra credit. Back in the day college was rigorous, your professor could care less if you came and simply you were expected to figure it out. Maybe it's not high school that needs to become more rigorous but college and this in itself will weed out those who don't belong there to alternative career and educational paths.