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Report: Utahns paying a lot more for much less health insurance

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  • Anonymous
    March 17, 2010 9:47 a.m.

    There is a very simple way to verify this. Check you healthcare coverage compared to last year.
    Did you recive MORE coverage?

    Or less?

    If less, then something is wrong with our current system and needs to change.

    Thank you Obama.

  • This is good news!
    March 17, 2010 9:59 a.m.

    We're shouldering more of the financial burden for fewer families. That's the way it should be. That's why fewer people pay more taxes, and more people receive free or low cost benefits. Let's remember, just because people in UT failed to pay insurance premiums, they were NOT denied healthcare. We should be proud of the fact that as a state, Utah is showing the rest of the country how it should be done. Now, ON TO OBAMACARE!!!

  • Socialism Save us
    March 17, 2010 10:19 a.m.

    I guess this means we either have to go to socialized medicine or die when we get sick.

  • America great
    March 17, 2010 10:19 a.m.

    I thought the US had the best insurance in the world. I guess the lies the GOP have been spreading don't match up to reality.

  • mostly pay more/ expect lee
    March 17, 2010 10:22 a.m.

    "Utahns paying a lot more for much less....."

    Paying a lot for much less.

    This certainly applies to HOUSING.

    Rent is RIDICULOUS for what you get.

    (Who are you landlord bloodsuckers?? Someone told me some supposedly "faithful" Mormon retirees who have 'rental properties' are some of the worst abusers of sticking it to/bilking young couples and young families--and then blithely explaining their predatory ways with a smile, "whatever the market will bare".

    And some prices for homes are equally ridiculous.(And I'm sure greed is the explanation here too.)

    Milk, on the other hand, is a real bargain.
    (Dairy Farmers/Dairy distributors: A+
    Greedy Landlords/Greedy home sellers: F)

  • Anonymous
    March 17, 2010 10:23 a.m.

    Watch, people are going to protest this AND protest any goverment changes on healthcare.

    Birthers.

  • LT
    March 17, 2010 10:26 a.m.

    On top of what this story reports is the fact that many of us who DO have insurance have been switched over to high-deductible plans. So we are paying more in premiums for less coverage. For example, my husband, who works for a Fortune 100 Company, has $400 a month deducted from his paychecks for insurance, and then we have to pay $2800 out of pocket before the insurance company pays ONE CENT in claims. So unless we have a big chunk of money saved up front, one trip to the emergency room will put us in debt on top of having to keep paying those premiums. And then we have to pay 10% of the next 10,000 in claims, for a total liability of $3600 a year--on top of the $5000 we pay in premiums.

  • RB
    March 17, 2010 10:27 a.m.

    And Utah cries louder than anyone other state that that's EXACTLY what they wanted!

    No to HealthCare reform!!!
    (sarcasm, off)

  • Anonymous
    March 17, 2010 10:30 a.m.

    We have Americans being sold on voting against their interests by slick propagandist playing their fears.

  • PCCitizen
    March 17, 2010 10:33 a.m.

    Hey Anonymous - have you read the healthcare bill? No, you haven't because they won't let anyone read it! Do you know what it does or how much it costs? No, you don't. My healthcare insurance is better than last year with no cost increase My insurance company offered more choices this year. I of course, get up everyday and go to work and I have never thought the government could do a better job taking care of me (and my family) than I can do myself!

    NO Thank you Obama!

  • Wheeew
    March 17, 2010 10:41 a.m.

    I knew we would finally hear that we need no health care reform of any kind- I am sooooo glad the Utah Leg. and our Utah federal legislative group is protecting us from reform- I am glad I pay more for less- this is what captilism is all about- sell at the higest price you can for the least product and enjoy the profits- oohhhh wait maybe that is what we call a market failure- wake up- wages have been stagnant for the average Amewrican family since the mid 1970's and your buying power has been erroded by health care costs more than anything over that time but you insist on voting rich and living poor- very sad when our health outcomes in the US are equal to most developing countries but our expenses per person are almost twice as high as any other country- no reform needed just keep it as it is- thank you to both of our far sighted senators- 3 representatives and almost the entire Utah legislature- ohhh wait do they get publically funded health care- yeap and they are doing nothing to stop that- wonder why????

  • healthsavings account
    March 17, 2010 10:57 a.m.

    We increased our portion of our health savings account to $6,000 this year, this will probably be the last year we can do that. Any one who did not take avantage of health savings accounts while they had the chance were fools. If you still have a job your taxes will put you in the poor house. Get on the pell grants program that is coming with this bill, because you will be far better off in school than working, if you are lucky when you get your degree, you may be able to bribe your congressman into getting you a government job. For 70 years in India, the only good jobs were with the government and the railroad, bought with big bribes. You can bet the US will have at least 50 years of cannibalizing the wealth of the country. Any bureaucrat will be the top of the heap.

  • Truthfairy
    March 17, 2010 10:59 a.m.

    Obama's health reform is not socialized medicine - just in case that's what you meant. In socialized medicine, government pays for ALL care, pays the providers and runs the hospitals and facilities. I'm from the UK, so know what socialized medicine, our system there, is all about.

    Republicans like to characterize any attempt at health reform that is pro the American people as "socialized medecine", because of American fear of socialism and communism

  • Pagan
    March 17, 2010 10:59 a.m.

    'Report: Utahns paying a lot more for much less health insurance'

    I choose to see this as:

    'Report: Utahns paying more for much less health insurance, BEFORE goverment healthcare.'

    So, in conslusion, we are paying more, now, before Obamacare.
    I choose to see Obama's healthcare plan as the solution.
    Not more of the same problems we are faced with.

  • No Government
    March 17, 2010 11:11 a.m.

    Wake up people. Yes, the health care system needs to change, but not with a public option!!! You may not pay the insurance premium, but you will pay for it in your taxes for years and years to come. Look at the long-term, not short term. Deal with Tort reform, that would save millions in administrative costs for health insurance. Oh wait, many politicians are attorneys, so they would never do that. CONFLICT OF INTEREST. Obama's plan is a joke. Less government please!!! I have lived many places in world, and trust me, our health care is the best. What does the government run efficiently? Very little.

  • re: PCCitizen
    March 17, 2010 11:16 a.m.

    My work-provided healthcare is undergoing more premium increases, larger out-of-pocket maximums, and a shrinking list of services/medication being covered.

    I get up everyday and go to work also, to my Utah government job. And am sick of watching insurance companies make money hand over fist by continually increasing costs to us.

    Being healthy is not something you should have to put a price on.

    A true public option is the only tool that will ever add enough competition to stabilize these costs.

    Thank goodness a President finally has the fortitude to try and start the process of saving healthcare for the middle class. Because we all know that Republicans will do anything in their power to end any and all healthcare reform.

  • Truthfairy
    March 17, 2010 11:17 a.m.

    Anyone in Congress who opposes health reform, given cost burden to US & abuse of taxpayers & small businesses by unregulated health industry, is not voting with head or heart, but politics.

  • @ PCCitizen
    March 17, 2010 11:20 a.m.

    I am so glad that your world is so perfect and you have no need of the occasional helping hand.

    I sincerely hope it stays that way for you and that all of your children are equally lucky.

  • Anonymous
    March 17, 2010 11:27 a.m.

    ...your buying power has been erroded by health care costs more than anything over that time...


    According to a prediction by the healthcare insurance industry, by 2015 $1 out of every $5 you have will go towards healthcare.
    And this is BEFORE Obama's goverment option. Not AFTER.

  • Hey PCCitizen -
    March 17, 2010 11:28 a.m.

    Um, actually, if you know how to use the search engine on your computer, you can find both the Senate version of the healthcare bill (H.R. 3590) and the House version (H.R. 3200).

    You can also do searches on the U.S. government, U.S. Senate, and U.S. House of Representatives websites to see what the bills say.

    But - if you actually bothered to do the research and look at the facts, what would you have to complain about?

  • Utahns got more money is why
    March 17, 2010 11:32 a.m.

    Utahns should be paying a lot more for much less health insurance. White supremacists and neo-Nazi hate groups plan to take advantage of the anti-tax "Tea Parties" set to occur in more than 1,000 cities and localities over the July 4 holiday weekend to disseminate racist fliers and other materials and attempt to recruit others to their cause, according to the Anti-Defamation League (ADL). ADL's Center on Extremism, which monitors extremist groups and provides information to law enforcement and the public, has released information on its Web site describing the attempt by white supremacists to co-opt the anti-tax message of the events as a means to spread racism and anti-Semitism. On Stormfront, the most popular white supremacist Internet forum, members have discussed becoming local organizers of the "Tea Parties" and finding ways to involve themselves in the events. Many racists have voiced their intent to attend these rallies for the purpose of cultivating an "organized grassroots White mass movement," with some suggesting that they would do so without openly identifying themselves as racists. According to Tea Party organizers, rallies are currently planned in all 50 states and in 1,328 cities.

  • Obama's Plan
    March 17, 2010 11:34 a.m.

    Can someone tell me what Obama's plan is again? Because I haven't seen the details of it, nor have the elected representatives who are trying to push it through without a vote. So how can you have an opinion on something that you haven't seen?

  • Anonymous
    March 17, 2010 11:38 a.m.

    LT - $3,600 is a lot of money, but if the government did take over healtcare you (actually it would be your children) would still have to pay the same through taxes.

    The problem is the cost - not which way we pay for health care.

    3 problems with Health Care.

    No Competition
    If you fall and get a large cut on you arm and you go to the emergency room, and then they give you an x-ray to make sure you did not break a bone and then they have a orthopedic doctor look at the wound to make sure no tendons are broken, and then you get 16 stitches. That will cost about the same amount as getting lasik. Laser surgery on your eyes. WHY - Because insurance companies do not cover Lasik and there is competition.

    Fraud - 35% of Medicare and Medicade goes to false claims by either patients or hospitals. Insurance companies spend way too much money trying to stop fraud.

    Mal-practice insurance.

    This Bill that congress is looking at does not fix any of these problems. Health care does cost to much, but

  • David
    March 17, 2010 11:42 a.m.

    Working at a small company, my insurance premiums have gone WAY UP in the past few years and the coverage is getting lousier every year. Healthcare is WAY TOO EXPENSIVE. Doctors make too much, drug companies make too much, insurance companies make too much. I welcome any reforms that reduce costs and bring SANITY back to our healthcare.

  • Anonymous
    March 17, 2010 11:49 a.m.

    @PCCitizen | 10:33 a.m.

    Do a simple internet search for HR 3590. You'll quickly find the text for the bill that the Senate has already passed under normal rules.

    You can even go to the Library of Congress's THOMAS site (database of bills in congress) and there's a link to the bill on the first page.

    Why would you even make the claim that we can't read the bill. Did you think that no one would check? Knock of the fear-mongering, nobody's buying it anymore. Especially when companies like Wellpoint recorded record profits last year and STILL want to increase premiums by 39% this year.

    No one is asking the government to take care of you or your family. We're asking the government to put a stop to abusive practices by insurance companies and to enable the 30 million uninsured Americans to get insurance.

  • Yes to Healthcare Reform
    March 17, 2010 11:59 a.m.

    Myth #1- "Let's remember, just because people in UT failed to pay insurance premiums, they were NOT denied healthcare" Actually, yes they were if they were poor (but not eligible for Medicaid) and couldn't pay 100%.

    Myth #2 - "You may not pay the insurance premium, but you will pay for it in your taxes for years and years to come." Not necessarily, the more people that pay into the system either through taxes or premiums, the more the risk is shared for the insurance company. The goal should be 100% coverage for all Americans, then we would see a huge difference in what each individual is paying. Unfortunately, the only way we get that is through universal health care.

  • Anonymous
    March 17, 2010 12:00 p.m.

    PCCitizen | 10:33 a.m. Do you realize that every person who has been denied care by insurance companies all believed they had great care before they received the rejection letter. I noticed you haven't read. If you had read, you would know this bill has no government health care. Its more welfare for corporations.

  • Big D
    March 17, 2010 12:05 p.m.

    Apparently no one on here has read the proposed reform. I have seen parts. If you want to be told when and where to go to the doctor and your doctor to be told IF and how to treat you, then yes, Obamacare is for you. Quality of doctors will go down because government will regulate what they can make. Sounds good in premise but the good doctors will leave and we will have "Dr. Nick" from the Simpsons treating us. The government runs nothing efficiently or within budget so in the short-term it may be cheaper but long-term taxes with skyrocket. BTW, it also includes healthcare to non-US citizens (i.e. illegals). So we will still be stuck footing the bill for that. Not a better plan. You would agree if you read it.

  • Evets
    March 17, 2010 12:07 p.m.

    First, the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation's "Barely Hanging On: Middle-Class and Uninsured" is NOT a neutral group. The foundation hsas been pumping out this type of garbage for sometime and is Progresive in it philosophy.
    Second, I would like to see how the numbers were crunched and if they were all figured in 2010 dollars. I am sure it went up even if you figured it in todays numbers because newer technologies etc. costs more.
    Third, yes we need health care reform in order to lower costs BUT the current plan does not do that. It really does not address the cost factors and many of it's proposals actually will increase costs.

  • No to Obamacare!
    March 17, 2010 12:15 p.m.

    I agree that we desperately need healthcare reform that will contain and even lower costs. However, I fear that Obamacare will not accomplish that and, in fact, will make things much, much worse for all of us in myriad ways. I want Congress to start over and get it right this time. There are better ways.

    How and why have things been allowed to progress to this point? Exactly what is causing the ridiculous rise in medical costs and insurance premiums? The answer is GREED - greed on the part of doctors and other healthcare providers, greed on the part of healthcare institutions, greed on the part of the pharmaceutical industry, greed on the part of the insurance companies, and greed on the part of patients and lawyers who file frivolous lawsuits. Formulate a plan that will take away incentives for exploitation of the system and punish those who are unconscionably avaricious. Remember that the love of money is the root of all evil. Reintroduce common sense and compassion back into healthcare. Simplify and streamline rather than adding even more layers of costly bureaucracy to an already burdened system. And stop making backroom deals!

  • Anonymous
    March 17, 2010 12:16 p.m.

    Those of us who work have to compensate for medicaid and medicare. They under pay the doc's and hospitals who pass it on the rest of us. Hooray for gov't intervention. They always make things worse.

  • mark
    March 17, 2010 12:21 p.m.

    "Hey Anonymous - have you read the healthcare bill? No, you haven't because they won't let anyone read it!"

    Who doesn't let you read it PCCitizen? Your mother? It's on-line. Go read it if you want.

    Congrats if your insurance has improved, don't know if I really believe you unless you just moved on from that job at Walmart and now have got yourself a job at costco. But all the same congrats, most people have had a drastic decline in quality of insurance.

    But, hey, you got yours, right?

  • Broke in Utah
    March 17, 2010 12:25 p.m.

    My health insurance went up this year. The deductible went up to almost $3000. The list of what is covered declined. Also, I just got a bill for my sons broken arm last year that the insurance denied a year later! What took them so long? What am I paying insurance for if a year later I am told I have to pay the bill? That's Dr., orthopedic surgeon and all the x-rays I must now pay! Thanks a lot insurance, don't see that your paying for anything anymore! If insurance costs keep rising I'll soon be working for insurance and get NO paycheck! My husbands job cut insurance 2 years ago and gave them a $1. raise instead of insurance. I wonder if my job will cut insurance anytime soon. All management complains about is the insurance cost increases they get every year and how they can't give raises to us because insurance costs are eating up any company profit. Something has to give. It's unsustainable. I pay close to 12,000 a year for my family for nothing!

  • So what?
    March 17, 2010 12:26 p.m.

    Utahns don't need health care. We have Orrin Hatch, Bob Bennett, and three Republican congressmen to protect us!

  • Time
    March 17, 2010 12:29 p.m.

    It never ceases to amaze me how easily the party of fear can manipulate their GOP backed base to vote against the very things that would benefit them, and for anything that benefits big business. The political terms "right" and "left" are derived from the French political system in which the aristrocracy sat to the right of the monarch and the representatives of the people sat to the left.

    How many will allow themselves to be repeaters of GOP rhetoric, stating as fact anything they hear on talk radio or Faux news?

  • mark
    March 17, 2010 12:51 p.m.

    6000? healthsavings account|10:57 a.m. March 17, 2010
    Good for you! I guess you didn't have any major medical bills this year, or even moderate, or you would have blown through that in a couple of days.

  • Utah
    March 17, 2010 12:55 p.m.

    The state of 'I got mine!'

  • Anonymous
    March 17, 2010 12:58 p.m.

    There is a great story on Yahoo! news about Assurant Health targeting and dropping coverage for individuals who have been diagnosed with major medical problems.

    We don't need health care reform!

  • Typical
    March 17, 2010 1:11 p.m.

    If I haven't looked for it, it must not exist. If I'm not affected, it can't be a problem. If you truly think there is nothing wrong with the medical system in this country, than you haven't used it recently. If you think that you have never used other people's money, you must live under a rock.

  • Re: No Government
    March 17, 2010 1:22 p.m.

    Could you please tell me what is so bad about a public option? The term public OPTION means that if you are happy with your current insurance provider you can stay with them and ignore the government option altogether. Why is this so confusing for people? If the government can't run anything, than insurance companies have nothing to worry about, right? So why are they spending 1.7 million per day on lobbyists to stop this?

    The insurance companies are not your doctors or nurses or hospitals, they are simply the middleman that transfers money to pay your bills. They are the reason that health care is in this mess in the first place, and all we're getting from them is the right to pay them more every year for less coverage, so the question is: How can the government do any worse?

  • Myth #3
    March 17, 2010 1:25 p.m.

    Myth #3 - "If you want to be told when and where to go to the doctor and your doctor to be told IF and how to treat you, then yes, Obamacare is for you." This is a lie. The bill does not have any provisions for what your doctor can and can't do. Your insurance company can do that though.

    Myth #4 - "Can someone tell me what Obama's plan is again? Because I haven't seen the details of it, nor have the elected representatives who are trying to push it through without a vote. So how can you have an opinion on something that you haven't seen?" Get busy with the google, the plan is widely available on-line. If you really believe that your elected official hasn't read it, then perhaps you should vote against that person in the next election because they aren't doing what they are paid to do. But I plan on voting against the politicians that keep lying about what is in the plan to keep you all stirred up.

  • david jay
    March 17, 2010 1:48 p.m.

    We definitely need to continue the program of private insurance coverage so that insurance industry executives can give themselves multimillion dollar salaries. If they aren't allow to rape and pillage the people's wallets we will end up with socialized medicine and that's a bad thing. Insurance executives are like bank executives and are high maintenance. It requires at least $5million a year for them to live the life style they are accustomed to living.

    You poor saps. The things you believe are astounding. Vote against your own self interest and complain about it.

  • Pagan
    March 17, 2010 1:51 p.m.

    'Because I haven't seen the details of it...' (The healthcare plan)

    'Get busy with the google, the plan is widely available on-line.' - 1:25 p.m.

    Myth # 3 is correct. Simply look under the 'Premiums would rise under plan' link to this story. You will see the prostester pictured in that article has a copy himself.

    I also must add that healthcare (not goverment) predicts healthcare cost's will go up...110% in the next 10 years.
    That means $1 out of every $5 you have will go towards your healthcare under current guidelines. I would say that is a problem. As, if that trend continues, in the next 20 years only the super rich will be able to afford a doctor.
    That means the middle class will be left without healthcare. And that means you will be twice as likely to die, not IF but WHEN you go to an ER in your lifetime.

    Harvard study. 11/16/09

    We have two options. Pray we never get sick, or support our president in changing things now.

    Yes, yes, yes on Obamacare.

  • Hey Big D
    March 17, 2010 2:08 p.m.

    I have read both Bills, and for the life of me, I can't find the section where the government tells me what doctors I have to see and when? Can you point me to that section.... I will wait while you try to find it. Its going to take a while... a long while... because it doesn't exist.

    There is NO government take over of the health care system in this bill. Stop the lies, or the ignorance. Just becaue you read it here on the web doesn't mean it is true. Read the bills for yourslf. They are quick reads because while they are long, they are double spaced and printing in large fonts. Looks like a high schooler wrote them and was told they had to do a 1,000 page essay. There is more white space in it than Antartica.

    So before you go blathering about socialism, and communism, and forced doctors appointments, read the dang thing.

  • Mike
    March 17, 2010 2:14 p.m.

    What a bunch of freaking whiners. If you think for one minute that the Health Care Bill now pending will make things better, then you had better quit sucking helium, because you are all nuts. This county's AAA bond rating will be gone, and the largest entitlement program in history will more than bankrupt the budget.

    Sorry, I don't want socialism. I want the government out of health care all together. Which is part of the reason that insurance and health care cost so much. Get the government mandates and rules, the trial lawyers out of the mixture and watch as insurance goes down.

    My doctor tells me that I could pay him $40.00 per visit (I'm already paying a $25.00 co-pay) and he wouldn't even have to get the insurance company involved. But he can't do that because it is currently illegal. So he makes more off of me because of the insurance reimbursement to him.

    What this healthcare bill will do is to create an undergrown economy of people that pay cash for their care. Doctors will be running for cover.

  • Anonymous
    March 17, 2010 2:26 p.m.

    I love this idea that Obamacare is to be feared because it will tell us what doctors we can go to and what they can treat - and then the same posters talk about all the "options" their insurance companies are giving them.

    Newsflash folks!

    Those "options" your insurance company are giving you is your insurance company telling you where you can go and what you can be treated for!

    Hello!

  • Anonymous
    March 17, 2010 2:39 p.m.

    Doctors will be running for cover.

    Maybe that will promote competition for my business, instead of making $200k per year.

  • Hey Mike
    March 17, 2010 2:41 p.m.

    Have you noticed that most of the first world nations have a government funded health care system covering all who wish to be covered? And they pay less per person than we do here in the US in our present condition? And they live longer and have lower incidences of many of the major diseases, and lower infant mortality rates? And they all think people like you are what is wrong with the US.

  • to Pagan
    March 17, 2010 2:41 p.m.

    Do you have ANY basis for why you are confident Obama's plan would be better than the status quo?

  • Fear This
    March 17, 2010 2:45 p.m.

    When fear takes over, critical thinking and common sense go out the window. But Utahns continue to listen to the fear mongers and just screw themselves over. Every other advanced country in the World has public health care. I don't know how these evil socialist countries all do it, but they all seem to manage. I'm sure all the Insurance Excutives continue to hope we can't figure it out, cause they're making a killing with the status quo.

  • Anonymous
    March 17, 2010 2:53 p.m.

    How can people support a broken system?

    Just today Assurant Health was ordered to pay 10 million to Jerome Mitchell because they dropped him.
    Do YOU want to sue a healthcare company for the coverage you paid for?

  • Pagan
    March 17, 2010 3:00 p.m.

    'Do you have ANY basis for why you are confident Obama's plan would be better than the status quo?' - 2:41 p.m.

    You mean BESIDE the 110% premium increase healthcare is planning in the next 10 years? (1:51 p.m.)
    Or the fact that I am TWICE as likely to die in an ER without any healthcare? (10:59 a.m.)
    If you choose not to read anything I post, I cannot help you.

    Nice question though.

    Do you have anything to add to the conversation?

  • Dane
    March 17, 2010 3:06 p.m.

    Probably to blame:

    1) Medical supplies and supplies vendors; these supplies are outrageously priced.

    2) Have you noticed that medical services are almost -always- hiring? Why?

    3) Given their mission, how conservative is the health care system in spending - specifically health care administrators?

    Follow the money.

    I don't work in health care.

  • Anonymous
    March 17, 2010 3:19 p.m.

    You get sick, you loose your job.
    If you are able to keep your job, healthcare will simply drop you.
    If you are able to keep your job, don't get dropped, you will be unable to AFFORD healthcare in 10 years.

    Sounds like a win-win...for the healthcare companies.

  • to Pagan | 3:00 p.m.
    March 17, 2010 4:42 p.m.

    Let's get this straight--your evidence for supporting Obama's plan is based on what might happen if we don't do anything?

    No mention of whether Obama's plan will be better than the status quo? You don't care what it does, as long as it's new, right?

  • @Mike
    March 17, 2010 6:45 p.m.

    If you didn't have insurance are you saying the Dr. couldn't accept a $40 payment from you?

    I would've asked the Dr. WHY/what makes it illegal?
    My guess is because you are insured and he is under contract with the insurance company so he cannot accept cash from you and avoid sending the bill to the insurance. BUT, if you didn't have insurance then would he accept a $40 payment?

  • KF
    March 17, 2010 7:32 p.m.

    My insurance went up 42% in January and I'm a federal employee and my deductables and co-payments went up. Even with my "great" benefits, I am paying over $500 a month for medical and dental. Ten years ago, I paid $130 for better coverage. My income hasn't gone up an equal percentage. It is time for a change. These kind of increases are unsustainable for the average middle-class family.

  • PredatorWatcher
    March 17, 2010 11:33 p.m.

    Predators alway move to where the money is flowing. It should be no surprise that the health system of the US is so costly - it's one of the only remaining highly profitable businesses.

    And that is exactly why it's failing - it's a for-profit and for-growth industry and is more concerned about return to greed-holders than to patients. The capitalist system works for most sectors of the economy but has no place and no future in health care.

    The French Revolution, good bad, didn't happen without cause. Severe cause provokes severe actions. If the healthcare industry can't re-orient itself, it will simply be replaced and the insurance companies removed from the loop.

    The writing is on the wall, the current system is unsustainable.

  • Dane
    March 18, 2010 1:18 a.m.

    Good points, PredatorWatcher. The people you speak of follow both money and power. They make up about 1% of the general population, about 30% of prison populations, and are overrepresented among corporate leadership.

    One issue, I think, is that good and decent corporate leaders, who simply want to make a profit and compete with the bad guys, end up adopting some of their attitudes and questionable methods.

    How do the bad guys work? Quite similarly.

    In "The Mask of Sanity", (1st ed., 1941, 5th ed, 1982), Dr. Hervey Cleckley provides descriptive vignettes. Also see the clinical profiles at the end.

    On Dr. Robert Hare's site, the Fraud Magazine article (from the Association of Certified Fraud Examiners) is concise and descriptive. Also see his book, "Snakes in Suits".

    I'm not promoting the above, rather giving my sources - had to figure out one - extremely intelligent, highly impressive, leadership oriented, charismatic, studied people intently, favorite enjoyment was "duping delight", used reprisals, and had the conscience of a spoiled 3 year old (almost no conscience). And a stalker.

    The bad guys rise to the top; self interest is their single objective, to the detriment of everyone else.

  • Anonymous
    March 18, 2010 6:43 a.m.

    The current system is broken for consumers. The GOP is fighting any reform. Lobbyists have intimidated a lot of Congressman. The result is weaker reform than we need. But at least it is a step in the right direction. It is something. Maybe it will lead to further reforms.

  • Forget something?
    March 18, 2010 7:11 a.m.

    I wish these reports would put as much effort and investigative reporting on health care costs that are driving up insurance costs.

    These two costs are very much related yet no one is paying attention to fraudulent health care in corporate medicine. Nor are the people, they are all blaming insurance, not the doctors and hospitals who are at the very core of the outrageous crimes being committed under our noses.

    So the logic is that if health care doubles and triples insurance is not allowed to increase its costs to cover the fraud in health care services?

    Get your heads back out in the sunshine where you can open your eyes and see how corrupt the health care services are. And the people with insurance are part of the problem for not verifying and questioning "all" medical bills. Medicare is being defrauded billions of dollars a year by health care services yet private insurance companies are being tagged as the culprit? Get smart, get educated about who is defrauding who.

  • Pagan
    March 18, 2010 8:25 a.m.

    'Let's get this straight--your evidence for supporting Obama's plan is based on what might happen if we don't do anything?
    No mention of whether Obama's plan will be better than the status quo? You don't care what it does, as long as it's new, right?' - 4:42 p.m.

    There is no further point in responding to you. You will only ask more questions and add nothing to the conversation. While that is all well and good, I am aware enough to realize the conversation will be greatly one sided. I will be doing all the talking/explaining and all you will do is ask questions.

    Right?

  • Satirical Sam
    March 18, 2010 8:48 a.m.

    So what we need now is a government-run program that will increase insurance costs more by requiring insurance companies to insure everybody, no matter how risky they are. And a government bureaucracy that will cost a trillion dollars a year of taxpayer money. And while we're at it, let's cut Medicare Advantage.

    Yeah, that'll improve things.

  • Anonymous
    March 18, 2010 10:42 a.m.

    So what we need now is a government-run program that will increase insurance costs more by requiring insurance companies to insure everybody...

    Do you REALLY think health insurance will be UPSET that everyone has to have insurance?
    Please.
    They are laughing their tails off. That means that MORE people will be FORCED to have thier services. You know, the one's that go up 5-10% every year now.
    The ONLY way we can bring that down is through competition. And a public option for healthcare will force them to stop thinking about profit...

    and START thinking about the people.

  • Re: Pagan
    March 18, 2010 11:06 a.m.

    Only a die-hard liberal would think the a government bureaucracy is more efficient and compassionate than an insurance bureaucracy.

    ObamaCare will make health care more expensive, not less. And the current bills in Congress contain all sorts of goodies for Big Pharma and Big Insurance, which is why neither are fighting them very much.

    In short, if ObamaCare passes this Sunday your taxes will go up, your insurance premiums will go up, and eventually you will be forced into a government-run system run by a bureaucracy that combines the efficiency of the post office with the compassion of the IRS and the common sense of the TSA.

    It's amazing how stupid people become when you offer them free stuff.

  • mark
    March 18, 2010 11:59 a.m.

    "Sorry, I don't want socialism. I want the government out of health care all together. Which is part of the reason that insurance and health care cost so much. Get the government mandates and rules, the trial lawyers out of the mixture and watch as insurance goes down."

    Well Mike, you sure don't think much do you? Typical right. First of all I really don't see how prices would go down. Insurance companies right now set their own prices and compete with each other for business. You know that right?

    Second, so you want to get rid of all Medicare, Medicaid, SCHIPs, etc. And you think you will do better at the hands of unregulated business.

    Then you got this genious idea: no government mandates yet get the lawyers out. You don't even see the problem here right? I'll help ya, how do you stop lawyers from practicing there trade with out a massive government mandate?

    But business would love it. Imagine, do anything they want and healthcare business can't get sued. Genius, Mike, how long did it take you to come up with this idea? Just a lil talk radio.

  • mark
    March 18, 2010 1:12 p.m.

    "Only a die-hard liberal would think the a government bureaucracy is more efficient and compassionate than an insurance bureaucracy."

    You really think insurance companies are compasionate? That's funny. You know, I think the fire department is a rather compasionate government "bureaucracy", and rather efficient. The military, a government entity, is very efficient when it comes right down to the boots hitting the ground.

  • mark
    March 18, 2010 1:26 p.m.

    "you will be forced into a government-run system run by a bureaucracy that combines the efficiency of the post office. . . "

    We can only hope so, the post office is amazingly efficient, they move a huge amount of mail every day but Sunday and make very few mistakes. Imagine you can put a letter in a box outside your house with three small writen lines on the envelope and with a very inexpensive stamp someone will pick it up and within a handfull of days it will be hand delivered anywhere in the country or most any place in the world. Amazing, and amazingly efficient.

    ". . . with the compassion of the IRS. . . "

    Was not aware that the IRS was in the compasion business.

    ". . . and the common sense of the TSA."

    Well, you'll have to blame Bush first for creating the TSA.

  • mark
    March 18, 2010 1:36 p.m.

    One other thing "Re:pagan"

    "It's amazing how stupid people become when you offer them free stuff."

    I always find it amazing how stupid people become when they listen to conservative talk radio and FOX "news".