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Comments about ‘LDS, Catholics must defend religious freedom, cardinal says at BYU’

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Published: Wednesday, Feb. 24 2010 12:15 a.m. MST

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John Pack Lambert

To the 9:36 commentor,
Mr. Henderson's name may have been on the Church records, but he and his accomplice were both drug dealers AND users, so they were clearly not even close to living by the standards of the Church.
Anyway, the death of Shepherd was very closely connected to issues of drugs, Shepherd had appearently purchased drugs from one of his killers, who was coming down off meth, and it is alleged by some that one of the killers was a bi-sexual who had previously had sexual relations with men. So the claim that this was a "hate crime" is not supported by the actual evidence, and the attempt to connect the perpetrators to the LDS faith is total hogwash.
Do you also go around accusing Jews of crimes as a whole because Madoff is a Jew?

John Pack Lambert

In late 2004 20/20 did a piece on the Shepherd murder. This is probably the most thorough and respectable reassesment of the question of whether the killing was actually a "hate crime", but it is not the only one.

mark

20/20 piece was a rotten lying piece of rivisionist History.
The facts are clear Matthew was driven to a remote location pistol whipped, beaten, and kicked, and left to die of exposure on a Laramie fence. THIS was no drug deal, this was no consensual sex, this was a brutal HATE CRIME. The level of over the top violence and cruelty is one hallmark of a Hate Crime.

John Pack Lambert

Utah is NOT number one in housing foreclosures. That is a position held by Nevada. Also, the number of foreclosed houses in Detroit probably rivals the number in the entire state of Utah.
Anyway, considering the number of people who have walker away from their home, getting a new mortgage on a much cheaper house before their credit score tanked, whatever the rate is of foreclosures anywhere in the US is not related to people having a house to live in in the 1 to 1 sense some people claim.
I mean, how many houses in foreclosure have been second homes or rental property?

John Pack Lambert

To the 11:54 commentator,
"Single forever"? If we mean by single, not having a legal spouse, than it is true this is the choice, but it is the same choice ALL citizens have. The fact that people do not want to marry those they are as allowed to marry as anyone else, is not a case that creates a violation of the 14th Admendment.
However, "single" in your line is meant to imply living alone. However, as you do know, Two men can live together in every sense of the word in California or any other state and not fear any legal suffering for it.
Beyound this, in California they have a domestic partnership law where the state conveys EVERY benefit that it gives with marriage in these domestic partnerships.
While it would be a better world if people felt they could not cohabitate outside of marriage, people actually do, so not providing state recognition of a relationship in no way alters what how people can actually behave. With the actual context of Prop 8 it is even less an issue of "forcing" anyone to do anything.

John Pack Lambert

To the 1:41 commentator,
Yet Utah has the HIGHEST rate of high school graduates going to college in state. So in fact your statement has no connection with reality.

Re: Shephard

It's been pretty well documented that Henderson was born LDS but certainly not practicing (keep in mind, McKinney, Henderson and Shepard met in a bar - hardly a hangout for active LDS kids). It is also a fact that Henderson attempted to stop McKinney but was attacked himself.

I don't get it

Let me get this straight (no pun intended) ...

The LDS Church has had a policy on homosexuality for decades (based on the Bible).

More recently, along comes gay marriage.

The LDS Church does not change its policy (did you expect them to?).

Somehow, this makes the LDS Church the source of all of the problems in the gay community? Never mind all of the elections in all of the states that said "no thanks" to gay marriage - most of which have hardly any Mormons living in them.

????

RexidaWyo

To Vince | 6:36 p.m.

"Moreover, the Church has come out plainly speaking and made remarks to the effect that the Church does not take a stand as to what causes people to be gay." I agree.

"ELDER OAKS: That’s where our doctrine comes into play. The Church does not have a position on the causes of any of these susceptibilities or inclinations, including those related to same-gender attraction. Those are scientific questions – whether nature or nurture – those are things the Church doesn’t have a position on."
Newsroom "Same-Gender Attraction"

As you well know Vince the position of the Church on homosexual activity is that it is a grievous sin. As described by Paul in Romans 1:26-27 and in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10.

Do you think Vince that an individual wakes up and says that I'm going to be a porn addict today? That is crazy. It is a process of giving in here a little and there a little until the addict finds him/herself chained to the addiction.

It all leads to choices. There may be an attraction but there should never be an action. Marriage is action.

RexidaWyo

To Vince | 6:36 p.m.

"The counter argument to not being gay is that gay people were what, born straight and somehow they chose to go against their nature and experiment?"

First off Vince babies are born male or female. There is no sexual tendency at birth. What delirious science can prove that?

To Vince | 6:44 p.m.

"Scripturally, the quote you read attributed to Christ "to thy way and sin no more" is speaking to someone caught in adultery. The Savior was not chastising an "unrepentant gay sinner.""


Yea! Vince I know that. Don't you think that comment can and should apply to all sinful actions?
After all Paul an Apostle stated "Know you not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,"

I am not perfect nor am I declaring that I am saved. I am expressing that choice leads us down the road of sin. Religion, especially one that declares that it was divinely restored by God and his servants must than reaffirm the correct path and not the concoction of secular belief.

RexidaWyo

To Vince | 6:44 p.m.

I agree that people of the same sexual orientation that seek to raise children are not by default incompetent. That would be a silly assumption on my part if it were true.

However, based upon morals, yes established by revealed truth, (Many will not except that statement) the union of such a couple stands as open rebellion before there Maker. The giver of the revealed truth.

I am not judging the individual just the action or behavior. I believe there are many great and exceptional people who declare themselves to be homosexual. That does not take away from that person the knowledge, success, and accomplishments of their lives works. They should be recognized just the same as anyone else for their good works and efforts to lift and benefit society.

PMHill

I laugh at the people that insist I have to have a "non-religious" reason to say something is wrong and to speak out about it. LACK of a moral center is the problem. Whether you believe in God or you don't, I could care less. I do care about my country and the state it is getting into. I care about the growing problems in our communities, the gangs, the drugs the selfishness that is destroying the fabric of our country. I care that children are being taught that there is nothing wrong with anything. "If it feels good, do it" seems to be the motto most of you aspire too. Well, I won't sit back and allow you the "freedom" to destroy the country my ancestors toiled to create. Freedom doesn't mean you are "free" to do anything you want, it means you can do what you want until you interfere with someone else. Your allowing Satan to have power in my country interferes with my desire to keep him out. So, I will oppose you in order to remove him and all those actions/beliefs that bring him in.

Anonymous

"I laugh at the people that insist I have to have a "non-religious" reason to say something is wrong and to speak out about it. "

I never said that you have to have a non-religious reason to say something is wrong. But I never said I have to listen. I think religion is a good thing for society up to a point. That point is when they tell non-believers that they are sinners and living in the wrong.

"Freedom doesn't mean you are "free" to do anything you want, it means you can do what you want until you interfere with someone else."

Well said, so what do you have against Gay Marriage? How does that interfere with you? I have never heard an honest answer. Just a lot of poor speculation and half truths.

mark

John Pack Lambert
Utah is NEITHER the highest High Scool graduations, nor the most high school graduates going in state to college.
"The Beehive State ranked 26th in the nation for its high school graduation rate in 2006, according to Diplomas Count 2009, an annual report released by the magazine and supported by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. Utah's 2006 graduation rate of 72.2 percent still hovered above the national average of 69.2 percent, but the state's overall ranking plummeted, according to the report.

Utah ranked eighth in the nation for its 2005 graduation rates, and the year before that it ranked first. The state's graduation rate also dipped

from 78.6 percent in 2005"
from SLC tribune

Vince

RexidaWyo | 1:07 a.m. Feb. 27, 2010

Regarding sexual identity at birth.

True, sexual identity at birth is misconception (with an explanation).

I believe that when gays say that they were born gay they meant that they assumed a gay identity at the same time that heterosexuals assumed and knew that they were heterosexuals.

When does that happen?

When do people know that they are in fact, thinking rational beings able to communicate, interact, and otherwise have a sense of the world around them, and have a sense of memory of that identity later in life? Five? Six? Seven?

I believe this is what many gays mean when they say they were born "gay," no different than a heterosexual saying they were born heterosexual.

The superimposed heterosexual behavior is a layer added because of social implications and the environment. However, I do believe there is a certain hard wireredness as to how gays and homosexuals believe about themselves and their attraction towards the opposite gender.

Vince

RexidaWyo | 12:44 a.m. Feb. 27, 2010

The quote you quoted from Elder Oaks and other quotes from the Ensign or other Church materials speak that we understand the issue.

As you quoted, therein lies the crux of the matter and sometimes where misinterpretation from and mis-characterization of gays come in.

I believe you have clarified your stance and we agree.

It is not a choice to be born gay, or to put it on other terms that you may agree with, to have same-sex attraction.

It is "the fix" that is at issue.

I, for one, looking at the all the past ways of dealing with gays/homosexuality/same-gender attraction (whatever laber you want to call it) within or outside of the Church, have found the ways to shortchange gays.

In the writings of Paul, you are correct, though absent in the Four Gospels, Paul was more definitive about what constituted "grievous sin." To add to that layer, LDS adds the further layer of revelation and interpretation.

The Church policy is church policy.

My primary focus, has been to separate the distinction between a scriptural interpretation and a political one.

Do unto others

Live and let live.

To each their own.

Live by the morals you see best for yourself, but don't expect the rest ofthe world to see it your way. This goes for the religious and the non-religious.

Amen.

The Rocker
Bountiful, UT

Rock on to the Cardinal and President Packer. You dudes totally rock! It makes me sad when people do not follow their own faith and mock their great religious leaders and still call themselves faithful in their own self-rightousness. I am truely a sinner and do not consider myself faithful. But I do not mock my LDS church leaders and respect all who fight against evil. I have so much respect for the LDS Prophets and the Catholic Cardinal and the Pope who have stood up against evil again and again with consistancy. We have been so blessed. If what happened at general conference, prop 8,and even that hypocrite Christian church that burned Muslim Korans was not religion under attack I dont know what is. We need to defend the Muslims also who are under attack as well and some of the most kind people I have ever met in my life.

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