Comments about ‘Utah Legislature: Testing teachers — Should teachers receive pay based on student test scores?’

We did this last year.

We all submitted proposals for the extra work we would be doing and why we chose that idea.

The proposal were approved and we started in on the extra work.

Half way through the year, we were told that the legislature cut the funding and even though we had done the work, we would not be paid.

So, thanks for the effort but no thanks.

I won't jump through that hoop again for $2,000 that I won't get anyway.

How is this $2000 per teacher stipend to fund this study going to improve quality of education? Teachers are against experiments like this because they don't trust the intent, the neutrality of the criteria or that the government will actually follow through. I believe that Utah set aside some bonus money last year, and then withdrew it because of the economy. You don't adequately fund education in Utah, as it is. Does anyone actually believe that the tight-fisted conservatives are going to come up with MORE money to do this? Or will they simply shift funds around -- take from some and give to another? Or will they use this as an excuse to cut funding? Such and such school is below performance, so let's cut the teacher's pay, etc. There are no gimmicks to get around that you need to properly fund your schools. Get after your administrators to adequately evaluate teachers.

who will want to go into teaching after all this , yet we pay to see all these millionaires play childrens games...while the ones with the minds and fortitude to teach aren't even given a nickel. Im glad my children will teach elsewhere...it just doesn't pay here

If you really want to see how much parents support this idea, make the tests equally binding on the students, i.e. base high school standing on state tests instead of classroom work. As long as parents and students don't "have a dog in the hunt," teachers will be left holding the bag. Parents can be incredibly dysfunctional about what constitutes a quality education. It might be the teacher that tells them their kids is wonderful, regardless of performance. We have open enrollment, and virtually ALL of the parents who open enroll do so because of sports or other extracurricular opportunities. They want their kid to be the star forward in basketball. They want the better arts programs. (So much for the award-winning history teacher, or those who innovate AP programs). Don't get me wrong, parents should have the freedom to choose what's important to their family, but teachers shouldn't be paid based on what parents think is important. Equal pay for equal qualifications. Teachers don't expect to get rich, but they do expect to be able to support themselves and do their jobs without having to worry about political garbage.

Paying teachers according to the scores of their students will cause two very detrimental effects on education as a whole.

First, it puts control in the hands of students. If they don't like a teacher because they have been disciplined by them or they are too strict, they just have to fail the tests to get back at the teacher by lowering their wages. And to those who don't think that a fifteen year old would do something like that, you have not been in the schools lately, or ever.

Second, and more importantly, it would cause a gravitation of the better teachers to the classes of the more motivated students, who score better on tests and therefore cause their (the teacher's) pay to increase. While the classes of the less motivated students, who need the better teachers, would be left to beginning teachers or those who are not deemed worthy of 'promotion'.

In both cases, the education of our children suffers.

Who's brilliant idea was this anyway? I think it will place too much pressure on teachers who are already under pressure from having to teach too many students. Our class sizes are too large for teachers to be able to give the students the individual attention to improve scores. A teacher can only do so much. Scores and education cannot only take place at school. A lack of education or help with education in the home can make learning hard for a child. Sometimes this is because of the circumstances in the home. It is not fair to attribute all educational problems on the teachers. Especially when there are so many variables with home environment and individual development.

I have had 3 children graduate and go on to college now.2 of the 3 sailed through school and the 3rd had learning disabilities and even though he graduated he struggled the whole way. My worry on rewarding teachers for test scores will make is so that teachers are selective about thier students.Any student who struggles will more likley be placed in resource so that student does not affect the teachers scores or thier pay.All kids do not need resource, some only need a teacher who cares enough to put in a little extra effort to find out what works with that kid.

May I offer a suggestion. Allow math education majors and even math majors to teach in the elementary schools, without having to get a elementary education degree.

True, elementary education is good, but so is competence and having a clue in mathematic important. Given that so many students are weak in math, increasing teacher quality in the elementary school might make a big difference.

Also if this is allowed, we ought to make the most of these math and math education majors as we can. Let them teach math all day to 4 times as many kids as just one class, this way nearly all students in elementary can get high quality math teachers.

I know what I will do.

I have seniority over most of the teachers at my school. I will pick the tops kids to be in my classes and leave the rest for the new hires. The new hires will only be in the profession for a year or two anyway. I will collect the bonus money while teaching the smartest kids. The new teacher won't get the bonus money but it doesn't matter since she will be gone. It isn't a career for her but a part time job until her husband graduates.

Sound far fetched? It isn't. This EXACTLY what will happen. I've been doing this for 18 years now and it happens every year.

Sorry attempt of a plan. You can tell it was thought up by someone that hasn't been in a classroom.

To: Old Teach

Here are some additional ideas:

1. Grab as many Honors/Gifted and Talented classes as you can. Be ruthless against your colleagues. Test scores with these students are sky high. Whatever you do, don't get stuck with Special Ed, ESL, or any lower end class like Pre-Algebra.

2. Inflate your grades to the point of absurdity. Parents love high grades. Many really don't care that learning is going on in the classroom as long as their child is getting an A. Parent evaluations will be glowing.

3. Hand out suckers or candy the day before student evaluations. Forget about the push for "healthy" choices in school. Students will fall for this every time.

4. Have one eye on your recent e-mail computer screen at all times. The second your administration sends out workshop, conference, or other professional development opportunities be the first name on the list to go.

5. Buddy up to your administration. Make them feel as if they really deserve the big bucks. Compliment every lame-brained idea they come up with.

By following these simple suggestions, you can play the performance pay game to perfection.

Would you pay a dentist by how many patients he saw without cavities? Would you pay a doctor for how many patients he saw that wasn't sick? Until you come and teach in classroom with all the pressure and stress it has, then you can tell me that my test scores are what my pay is based on! I work hard. In fact, I spent 2 and 1/2 EXTRA hours tonight working on a school project. This merit pay idea infuriates me. How about we pay athletes for how many points or how many touchdowns? Oh, sorry, you didn't catch the football. Oh, no check for you! Wake up! Come teach for a year or two and then tell me my pay is based on the performance of my students and what their parents think of my performance! Ahh!

What should be done, and I have taught college for over 30 years, is simple. Don't ask how far a student has gone on an absolute scale. This is unfair to teachers who teach difficult students. Ask how much a student has improved over a year. Take students scores at the end of the year. Track them over the next year. Easy with computers. No matter what teacher they have next. If the next year at least say %75 of Ms. Jones students don't improve then Ms. Jones gets no raise. if this happens say 3 or 4 years in a row Ms. Jones is dismissed. If you can sell cars, the dealer dismisses you. If every 3rd grader in the state takes the same test from a nationally reputable company how can this be unfair?
Don't rely on parent satisfaction. This is like asking a patient whether the heart surgeon was good. What does the patient know? Don't use "portfolio" evaluations. These are not objectively valid.

I have never seen a merit-pay plan that has made sense, so I will propose a few ideas that should be considered.

Value added scores should lead the way. This would mean teachers working with struggling students (those who score 1s and 2s on the CRT) would stand to gain more than the teacher working with the cream of the crop (3s and 4s). Structure a tiered bonus at the teacher level, department or grade level and school level to encourage collaboration and the sharing of best practices.

Testing would have to take place day 1 of school each year and at the end of the year to measure growth during the school year. Measuring from the end of one year to the end of the next year would not be accurate as high socio-economic-students have many more resources and therefore keep learning during summer break. This is not true for students living in poverty.

The draw back to this. More tests would need to be written and more tests would need to be given. When are children supposed to learn, if all we do is test them?

Obviously, a number of teachers don't like the idea. That's understandable. Then instead of complaining, provide an alternative.

Studies have shown that it takes 20% of total pay being based on some performance measure before workers are motivated to improve behavior.

I lived in Maryland for 19 years and there was a test given in several grades that had a great deal of significance (monetary and prestige) for the school. What happened is that teachers now teach the test so the kids will do well. I can see this happening in Utah with this legislation.

Performance is important, but basing pay on TEST scores? Metrics are important but I have seen how true education has failed when a state (AZ) mandates a test, preparing kids not for the world but to be test-smart. Anything not tested is not important (social studies? Arts? Creativity?). I foresee a Utah where teachers shuttle slower-learning kids into less effective and less well-connected teachers' classrooms, creating a ghetto effect. Do all kids learn the same way? Do some kids take longer to grasp a concept than other kids? Special ed and un-diagnosed learning disabilities? Teachers will shuffle the most needy off to someone else to pad their resumes and pay. Students are not the same, 20 kids one semester are completely different than 20 the next semester. Are we thinking that test scores must unrealistically improve each year, someday expecting a super generation of children? Why don't we expect excellence while truly educating our kids to THINK. Lucky that Einstein and other geniuses weren't born in Utah. The truly brilliant aren't necessarily the ones who give the teacher the answers they want to hear.

In many ways the poor results of students are an indication of poor parenting by parents who do not support their children's efforts to learn, or the extensive efforts of valient teachers who, despite woefully low wages, work well beyond the time for which they are paid to impart wisdom to the youth. Simply put, failure or success begins in the home. Parents of failing students ought to stop blaming teachers and look inward.

Why is it always testing and teaching?

I think it only fair to get Congress to enact a No Parent Left Behind law requiring all parents to pass a yearly test on their parenting skills. If the parent fails, then an order of protection is issued keeping the failing and obvious not-trying-hard-enough parent from having any influence over that child for the next year. If both parents fail, the kid goes up for adoption. Think of all those young eager and upwardly mobile families all wanting to adopt kids.

We should have standardized national tests for fast food workers (if they make it better, more people will buy it), Boy Scout leaders (more merit badges and Eagle scouts), pastors (more virtue, less sin among the flock), anyone seeking political office (compare and contrast campaign promises to improvements in home districts), especially our members of Congress (merit = [number of constituents]x[voting record]/[campaign cash on hand]-[lobbyists seen this week]. Most importantly, we should have standardized tests for these designers of tests. Or just a standardized test for Citizen Adults. Are immigrants the problem or is the problem just plain stupid american citizens?

Do they really think $2000 is going to make a teacher go "above and beyond?" Most teachers do their best anyway. What an insult. "More Ideas" is absolutely right. Learn to play the game; most of these kids won't graduate from college anyway. Just like the Utah legislators who are dumb enough and uneducated enough to think this idea will result in better quality education!

Teachers begin to teach for the test when test scores are the measuring stick. I have heard of teachers giving answers, changing answers on the students' tests, etc. This is not a good idea.