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Reid: Federal prosecutor to review how to help combat polygamy
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Skeptical | 12:50 p.m. May 8, 2008
Well I'll believe it when I see it.
it warms my heart | 12:54 p.m. May 8, 2008
to see these boys kiss and make up
Thomas | 12:56 p.m. May 8, 2008
The Justice Department is on the wrong side. The Flds is the victim of religious
persecution. and now I am shocked to learn that they intend to join the
opressors
Comments continue below
Steve who knows... | 1:13 p.m. May 8, 2008
The sooner they do something about polygamy the safer our wives and children
will be. I don't want these old guys coming after my daughters. The
polygamist men do a lot of wife stealing and swapping, and that bothers me
Tremendously! Its time to put a stop to child marriages.
John S | 1:18 p.m. May 8, 2008
Harry Reid has no business sticking his federal nose into state business. The
feds did that and look at what we have now. If anything he should be trying to
get rid of the federal laws prohibiting plural marriage. If the Dems can
support fornication, adultery, gay marriage, or any other style of life then why
not remove those old laws so people can live and do what ever they want
(�as long as it don�t hurt anyone
else�).
Anonymous | 1:41 p.m. May 8, 2008
Is the goal to eliminate polygamy or to eliminate child abuse? I'm very
supportive of eliminating child abuse and punishing the abusers, but it seems
hypocritical for adulterers and supporters of free love to condemn polygamy.
This is still primarily a witch hunt.
This is still primarily a witch hunt.
Anonymous | 1:42 p.m. May 8, 2008
Today on the Radio Mark Shurtleff stated that look at the poor job Texas has
done handline the kids. and we have around 10 thousands children in Utah from
polygamist families. Just think of the drain that would be on our state if a
large state like Texas can not even handle it properly.
greenjello | 1:42 p.m. May 8, 2008
The problem isn't polygamy/plural marriage.... the problem is illegal
sexual relations with minors. If they were all consenting adults, we have no
business in their bedrooms. But when children are involved, that's where
the problem begins.
Polygamy | 1:52 p.m. May 8, 2008
I wouldn't want to live a polygamist lifestyle, but I see trying to stop
polygamy as a waste of time and resources. Our courts and law enforcement
agencies have enough on their plates already without going after polygamy.
If polygamists are abusing their children, committing welfare fraud, or breaking other laws, go after them for breaking those laws.
Legally, unless polygamists are legally married to more than one spouse, there is no difference between a polygamist family and 3 or more consenting adults cohabitating and sharing group sex.
If polygamists are abusing their children, committing welfare fraud, or breaking other laws, go after them for breaking those laws.
Legally, unless polygamists are legally married to more than one spouse, there is no difference between a polygamist family and 3 or more consenting adults cohabitating and sharing group sex.
Charley M. | 1:56 p.m. May 8, 2008
Combatting polygamy would be like "Combatting Homosexuality". Both
are protected conduct under Lawrence v. Texas (6/26/2003). Guns are not guilty
- it is the trigger-puller who commits the crime. You cannot prosecute an
abstract concept like POLYGAMY. You prosecute people who break laws. There are
no criminal anti-polygamy statutes in the US. The LDS Church gave money to
Tapestry Against Polygamy to attack polygamy - who is pulling Harry Reid's
strings?
Hoosier | 1:58 p.m. May 8, 2008
Thanks you Senator Reid!! Lets get a federal task force going along with
increased cooperation among the states to really look at the polygymous groups.
I think the finances, under age marriage, bigamy,plural marriage, child labor,
child abandonment, welfare fraud, transporting females across state lines for
the purposes of sex, etc. all need to be thoroughly investigated. Some of these
polygamist fathers have 3 or more non-working outside the home wives and 20-30
children. They must have really good paying jobs to support all of those people
or the plural wives apply for WIC, medicaid, etc. My tax money at work to
support an illegal lifestyle.
FLDS please... | 2:05 p.m. May 8, 2008
... stop your relentless efforts to fill up the comment pages. This format is a
very poor place to lobby for your cause.
CONTACT YOUR LEGISLATORS.
I'm a third generation adult male from a polygamous relationship. I am monogomous. Life has been good to me. My faith has been good to me.
Seek redress in the courts, not in comment colums. Not all of your comments will be published. I know, many of mine have not been displayed.
Give more reasonable people an opportunity to provide thoughtful participation in these pages.
kns@xmission.com
CONTACT YOUR LEGISLATORS.
I'm a third generation adult male from a polygamous relationship. I am monogomous. Life has been good to me. My faith has been good to me.
Seek redress in the courts, not in comment colums. Not all of your comments will be published. I know, many of mine have not been displayed.
Give more reasonable people an opportunity to provide thoughtful participation in these pages.
kns@xmission.com
Skeptical | 2:42 p.m. May 8, 2008
A witch hunt? Hello?! Wake up, it's not like the Sheriff and the local
farmers are rounding up polygamists left and right. There is paper and physical
EVIDENCE that supports the actions Texas has taken against this particular
community. And if you're so dignified now, you just wait until this turns
into a criminal case. I'll be sure to check back in so we can really dicuss
the lack of human rights taking place. Also, just because you might not have the
immediate resources to help someone in need doesn't mean you should ignore
it. Conformist.
doug | 2:52 p.m. May 8, 2008
It seems that the polygamy leads to lieing, abusing children and women and boys,
and cheating for money, food, power, whatever. Hmmmmmm. No wonder society is
taking a deep and hard look at it. It would not be surprising to find numerous
crimes committed by the FLDS and their kin, the... well... you know.
I love the way people try to support polygamy in this forum. Lots of excuses, lots of they are doing something similar in Bawaka County, ND, or something... it is illegal and has been denouced by Mormon leadership. No?
Lots of excuses by people who still worship at the alter of abusing women and children, called "polygamy." No wonder the feds. are joining the game. And fyi if it crosses states lines, it is a federal matter. So that is why the feds are in the game. Those are the rules.
Time will let everything bubble to the surface: from abuses to whatever. And the core is the polygamy. Polygamy as practiced in Texas has led to many problems, and probably crimes.
I love the way people try to support polygamy in this forum. Lots of excuses, lots of they are doing something similar in Bawaka County, ND, or something... it is illegal and has been denouced by Mormon leadership. No?
Lots of excuses by people who still worship at the alter of abusing women and children, called "polygamy." No wonder the feds. are joining the game. And fyi if it crosses states lines, it is a federal matter. So that is why the feds are in the game. Those are the rules.
Time will let everything bubble to the surface: from abuses to whatever. And the core is the polygamy. Polygamy as practiced in Texas has led to many problems, and probably crimes.
Anonymous | 3:07 p.m. May 8, 2008
My first reaction is that Reid is posturing! How will simply going after
polygamy prevent child abuse?
It is not obvious to me how having one family with one wife and then getting divorced and having another family with a second wife is factually that much difference from what happens in polygamy? I think everyone out to get the FLDS simply for being FLDS are treading on very dangerous ground that should be of concern to anywone who takes religious liberty seriously.
I also think the principle that parents should support their children is well wenshrined in legal tradition. I can imagine some interesting inquiries into FLDS financial structures and practices.
I generally think it is obnoxious to complain about the UT and AZ authorities doing nothing, and I definitely endorse. Mr. Shurtleff;s trust buidling approach.
It is not obvious to me how having one family with one wife and then getting divorced and having another family with a second wife is factually that much difference from what happens in polygamy? I think everyone out to get the FLDS simply for being FLDS are treading on very dangerous ground that should be of concern to anywone who takes religious liberty seriously.
I also think the principle that parents should support their children is well wenshrined in legal tradition. I can imagine some interesting inquiries into FLDS financial structures and practices.
I generally think it is obnoxious to complain about the UT and AZ authorities doing nothing, and I definitely endorse. Mr. Shurtleff;s trust buidling approach.
Dutchman | 3:40 p.m. May 8, 2008
So, is the federal government going to round up every adult citizen in this
country that is shacking up and who have kids and the kids do not know who the
father is? Better build some mighty big federal prisons to put them all in.
Senator Reid, aren't there some illegal aliens running around committing
crime that could better use the space?
awesomeron | 3:45 p.m. May 8, 2008
If everyone is over 18, and consenting. I do not see where this issue is combat.
I much rather spend the money on finding and deporting
illegal�s of any Race and from anywhere. The FLDS thing is
not so much about Plural Marriage its about forced so called marriage of
underage females, rape and apparent child abuse and apparently sexual abuse of
some of the boys. Polygamy in and of it self among adults who are in agreement
to it does no harm and may present some social advantages. If a person is a
strict sex is for reproduction only, one can see the need. Now more then one
official marriage makes a person a Bigamist a whole different subject. Yes it is
not legal but it is tough to prove and there are many things more important that
are not legal. Like people. Peaceful hardworking adults should be allowed to
live in peace. I would much rather have Plural Marriage then Gay Marriage which
some people are trying to make legal. Now you can't be an active member of
the Church or get your TR, but it is a free country.
judy | 3:54 p.m. May 8, 2008
If all those in polygamist marriages were consenting adults who supported
themselves without the help of the state, if their children were adequately
educated (including through homeschooling) and cared for, then no one would have
a legitimate reason to intervene. I don't know if the problems in the FLDS
are endemic to polygamy, but I do know that the problems of child-brides,
welfare fraud, low education levels, abuse of women, and very high rates of
genetic anomalies also occur in the polygamist Bedouin communities. As women
are more educated, they are less likely to enter into marriages as 2nd or 3rd
etc wives. Genetic testing as part of matchmaking can prevent anomalies and of
course paternity testing can cut welfare fraud. Most of this means
acknowledging polygamy and working on the problems, not forcing it underground.
WatchingfromDetroit | 3:54 p.m. May 8, 2008
FDLS Please stop trying to fill....
I am not FLDS but I am offended by your post asking them to be silent and allow "more thoughtful" people to speak on the issue.
You reveal your intellectual weakness with such a statement.
I am not FLDS but I am offended by your post asking them to be silent and allow "more thoughtful" people to speak on the issue.
You reveal your intellectual weakness with such a statement.
Chemist | 4:02 p.m. May 8, 2008
Polygamy: No better system for keeping women and children impoverished, and
women servile and uneducated.
Bruce | 4:16 p.m. May 8, 2008
I'm sure that child abuse exists in polygamist communities, as it does in
most all communities. I don't think that it is any more prevelant
though.
Texas really pulled a cheap shot increasing the age of consent from 14 to 16 as soon as the FLDS showed up.
That gave them a whole new age group that they could shout "child rape", "child abuse", "sex with minors", yada, yada in an attempt to get public sentiment on the side of the government. With some it worked.
The FLDS is probably going to have to be more careful with the age thing in the future if they are going to survive. Either by being more compliant, or by going deeper "underground" and hiding things better. They are more than industrious enough to pull off either. I don't think they'll be caught with their knickers down again.
They are god-fearing white separatists and out of the secular mainstream...that is their right but it makes them easy targets for any politically correct accusations.
As for targeting polygamy for polygamy's sake,...what a waste of time.
Texas really pulled a cheap shot increasing the age of consent from 14 to 16 as soon as the FLDS showed up.
That gave them a whole new age group that they could shout "child rape", "child abuse", "sex with minors", yada, yada in an attempt to get public sentiment on the side of the government. With some it worked.
The FLDS is probably going to have to be more careful with the age thing in the future if they are going to survive. Either by being more compliant, or by going deeper "underground" and hiding things better. They are more than industrious enough to pull off either. I don't think they'll be caught with their knickers down again.
They are god-fearing white separatists and out of the secular mainstream...that is their right but it makes them easy targets for any politically correct accusations.
As for targeting polygamy for polygamy's sake,...what a waste of time.
transplant | 4:25 p.m. May 8, 2008
CharleyM: "protected conduct under Lawrence vs Texas....no criminal
statutes in the US"
Ahh perhaps not but we're in Texas. There is a law prohibiting polygamy put into law in I believe 2005. If they didn't present themselves as having plural wives and called them baby mammas it would not be an issue. For all their lying they were stupid not to lie about that. We also have common-law marriage in Texas. By virtue of presenting themselves as married in Texas they are. In polygamous marriages which are against the law. To my knowledge there are no statutes against adultery. That would be protected behavior. As with homosexual behavior. Plural marriages are not.
Ahh perhaps not but we're in Texas. There is a law prohibiting polygamy put into law in I believe 2005. If they didn't present themselves as having plural wives and called them baby mammas it would not be an issue. For all their lying they were stupid not to lie about that. We also have common-law marriage in Texas. By virtue of presenting themselves as married in Texas they are. In polygamous marriages which are against the law. To my knowledge there are no statutes against adultery. That would be protected behavior. As with homosexual behavior. Plural marriages are not.
boys and girls | 4:35 p.m. May 8, 2008
Question. Do these polygamist communities recruit members? ... or are they
closed communities for the most part? Besides the genetic problems of closed
communities what about the natural 50% girls 50% boys (approximately) birth
ratio. If the community is closed how does the arithmetic work in terms of men
having many wifes. Are there large numbers of single men who will never marry in
these communities? ummmmmmm.
Jobs? | 4:35 p.m. May 8, 2008
Wow, jobs in Utah must REALLY pay well. How does one support 10,20,30 kids?
Anonymous | 4:43 p.m. May 8, 2008
I'm not a polygamist either. I question the practice and would never want
to live it, but don't feel it is my place to question the practice as long
as it is between consenting adults. Then again, I question the practices of
Democrats and would never want to be one, but to each their own.
Anthony | 4:52 p.m. May 8, 2008
What other laws could Texas change as they did with the age limit on
marriage?
How about sodomy?
How about homosexuality?
Think big Texas, as in prisons.
Did Texas pay that $567 million claim over the WACO disaster or was that against the Federal Government?
How about sodomy?
How about homosexuality?
Think big Texas, as in prisons.
Did Texas pay that $567 million claim over the WACO disaster or was that against the Federal Government?
Wyogirl | 4:51 p.m. May 8, 2008
There may be more polygamists in Utah that in other states, but what started in
Utah and Arizona has spread throughout the country. That is why the Feds need
to get involved. When law officials were trying to break up the Mob/organized
crime groups, there was never enough evidence to really nail them for the
violent crimes they committed. They used federal tax laws to finally put those
creeps in Jail. Some of these polygamous groups are very similar in this way.
People that were able to escape, or those young men dropped off on the side of
the road, are hesitant to testify because they know that harm will come to their
family members still in the group if they do. If federal laws help rid these
communities of abusers of all sorts, then I think that is great.
Forrest | 5:48 p.m. May 8, 2008
The only reason plural marriage is still against the law is because a case has
not gone up to the Supreme Court on the matter. This is not news, is it?
Anonymous | 5:54 p.m. May 8, 2008
Polygamy is expressly outlawed in the United States and, still, here you are
oppressing honest gay people who want family lives with 2 parents and a sane
amount of children while you excuse the polygamists who break the law and rely
on federal and state welfare.
If that's what being a Mormon is, you can have it!
If that's what being a Mormon is, you can have it!
JD | 5:56 p.m. May 8, 2008
It is interesting that all of the articles I have read about Reid's call to
Shurtleff, the term "bury the hatchet" was used, but never that he
apoligized to Shurtleff for his comments on the radio show.
Carl Sullivan | 6:37 p.m. May 8, 2008
Amazingly, so many here miss the point--which is precisely that underage
marriage, child/spouse abuse, welfare abuse, tax evasion, and a host of other
illegal activites are inherent in the illegal practice of polygamy. Like Harry
Reid, I am embarassed for this state, which remains with its head in the sand.
How many children will have to be victimized by this pernicious practice before
Utah's citizens stand up for them? How many more overtime shifts would you
like to work to pay the taxes to support this lifestyle? This is more than a
quaint practice between consenting adults--take a trip to Hildale if you
don't believe it. Some sects operate within their own community, while
others reach out--my own 17 year old daughter was once solicited for marriage by
a middle-aged man with lots of wives. Despite Utah's cultural legacy of
polygamy, I believe that we must find it within ourselves to follow Texas'
lead and deal with this issue. Now is the time.
Matt Connelly | 6:52 p.m. May 8, 2008
I don't think "combating" polygamy is a good use of our taxpayer
dollars. There is no real threat to "combat." Except in the isolated
case of abuse (which exists in "normal" society as well) we should
leave these people alone. It isn't worth the cost. Not only are these
people peaceful for the most part, but we've got serious criminals on the
street who are raping, killing, and selling drugs. These are the people we need
to be going after with our taxpayer money, not peace-loving people who may have
different religious beliefs than mainstream America.
Nevadan | 7:10 p.m. May 8, 2008
We in Nevada need to find a way to combat Reid.
D Viger | 7:21 p.m. May 8, 2008
These poor wives appear on TV as brainwashed zombies! As if that isn't
tragic enough, to learn that these much older men could be predators ravaging
the innocence from these innocent under age and easily impressionable young
girls is unconscionable!
Laws are made to protect these innocents from those who falsely claim a divinely appointed right to potentially inflict what can be life-long spiritual and personify disorders and scars that are irreparable! The local and state governments can't get those children out of there fast enough!
This appears to be an attempt to legitimize a form of terrorism! Would any young child not want you to save them of they comprehended the full extent of the harmfulness of the enviornment they are trapped in?
Laws are made to protect these innocents from those who falsely claim a divinely appointed right to potentially inflict what can be life-long spiritual and personify disorders and scars that are irreparable! The local and state governments can't get those children out of there fast enough!
This appears to be an attempt to legitimize a form of terrorism! Would any young child not want you to save them of they comprehended the full extent of the harmfulness of the enviornment they are trapped in?
Professor H | 7:24 p.m. May 8, 2008
Reid really needs to be attacking prostitution and gambling in his own state. I
am totally ashamed of what goes on in Nevada. Legal and illegal prostitution,
strip shows, organized crime are just of few of the things.
The FLDS needs to stop allowing plural wives with people under 18 years old. All abuse needs to stop.
But I am confident that teenagers pregnancies are very common in various other ethno-religious in Texas and Nevada.
The FLDS needs to stop allowing plural wives with people under 18 years old. All abuse needs to stop.
But I am confident that teenagers pregnancies are very common in various other ethno-religious in Texas and Nevada.
To: Professor H | 7:41 p.m. May 8, 2008
you say: "But I am confident that teenagers pregnancies are very common in
various other ethno-religious in Texas and Nevada."
---------------
Do you mean coerced marriages? ... like under the threat of eternal damnation? ... like a systematic pratice of having girls "be sweet" under the threat of Uncle Warren's scorn? ... you're a Professor of what?
---------------
Do you mean coerced marriages? ... like under the threat of eternal damnation? ... like a systematic pratice of having girls "be sweet" under the threat of Uncle Warren's scorn? ... you're a Professor of what?
wrz | 7:58 p.m. May 8, 2008
>>A witch hunt? Hello?! Wake up, it's not like the Sheriff and the
local farmers are rounding up polygamists left and right. There is paper and
physical EVIDENCE that supports the actions Texas has taken...<<
Evidence? What evidence is there that shows a twelve month old toddler is in some sort of danger and needs to be incarcerated, ripped from his mother's arms, and fostered out?
Evidence? What evidence is there that shows a twelve month old toddler is in some sort of danger and needs to be incarcerated, ripped from his mother's arms, and fostered out?
Eric RE: Transplant | 7:58 p.m. May 8, 2008
"there are no statutes against adultery"
Ahh , but there ARE!!!
In Texas and other states it's called Fornication. That law says it's illegal to have sex with anyone that you are NOT married to.
Lawrence vs. Texas only addressed sodomy. Fornication laws still stand.
Ahh , but there ARE!!!
In Texas and other states it's called Fornication. That law says it's illegal to have sex with anyone that you are NOT married to.
Lawrence vs. Texas only addressed sodomy. Fornication laws still stand.
dixiegal | 8:10 p.m. May 8, 2008
Interesting that Reid is attacking Utah and Arizona. What about the FLDS
compound outside of Pioche/Panaca Neveda. Wonder if he "forgot" about
them or just figured no one knew of them??
Polygamy is just a word who cares if they sleep with 2,3,or 10 women...These people need to be prosecuted for welfare and medicaid fraud. It is not right for the state to pick up the tab for 14 children of one wife (she is #2) when she is employed full time as a nurse and has insurance provided for her. Talk about fraud! Frankly I am getting tired of paying for all of them. The intermarriage's are producing children with untold problems. To bad the general publc can't see these children. And guess who is paying for all the medical expenses...Joe taxpayer, that's who.
Polygamy is just a word who cares if they sleep with 2,3,or 10 women...These people need to be prosecuted for welfare and medicaid fraud. It is not right for the state to pick up the tab for 14 children of one wife (she is #2) when she is employed full time as a nurse and has insurance provided for her. Talk about fraud! Frankly I am getting tired of paying for all of them. The intermarriage's are producing children with untold problems. To bad the general publc can't see these children. And guess who is paying for all the medical expenses...Joe taxpayer, that's who.
To: wrz | 8:24 p.m. May 8, 2008
Evidence? What evidence is there that shows a twelve month old toddler is in
some sort of danger and needs to be incarcerated, ripped from his mother's
arms, and fostered out?"
---------------
I hope you realize how silly you sound. THE ENVIRONMENT of arranged marriages under systematic community practices is in itself dangerous but of course you'll just continue your Short Creek revival. CPS will remove ALL children within an ABUSIVE ENVIRONMENT regardless of whether or not the child has been sufficiently groomed to take part in the practices just yet. why don't you call the ACLU and speak to a friendly co-miserator ...
---------------
I hope you realize how silly you sound. THE ENVIRONMENT of arranged marriages under systematic community practices is in itself dangerous but of course you'll just continue your Short Creek revival. CPS will remove ALL children within an ABUSIVE ENVIRONMENT regardless of whether or not the child has been sufficiently groomed to take part in the practices just yet. why don't you call the ACLU and speak to a friendly co-miserator ...
Lets start Today | 8:37 p.m. May 8, 2008
I think we need the referendum to start today.
Lets get them religious zelots and stamp 'em out.
After all, why should I have to pay taxes to protect the religious injustice that keeps happening to Americans.
I can't handle it any more.
You guys take the next step. Walk. Walk. Walk.
Picket. Picket. Picket.
Strike. Strike. Strike.
If this does not make any sense to you, then you never were.. really, an American.
Lets get them religious zelots and stamp 'em out.
After all, why should I have to pay taxes to protect the religious injustice that keeps happening to Americans.
I can't handle it any more.
You guys take the next step. Walk. Walk. Walk.
Picket. Picket. Picket.
Strike. Strike. Strike.
If this does not make any sense to you, then you never were.. really, an American.
wrz | 8:55 p.m. May 8, 2008
>>I hope you realize how silly you sound. THE ENVIRONMENT of arranged
marriages under systematic community practices is in itself dangerous... CPS
will remove ALL children within an ABUSIVE ENVIRONMENT regardless of whether or
not the child has been sufficiently groomed to take part in the practices just
yet. >why don't you call the ACLU and speak to a friendly
co-miserat<<
I did. They said: "...exposure to a religion's beliefs, however unorthodox, is not itself abuse and may not constitutionally be labeled abuse."
I did. They said: "...exposure to a religion's beliefs, however unorthodox, is not itself abuse and may not constitutionally be labeled abuse."
How the mess was made | 8:58 p.m. May 8, 2008
This is a very good example of what happens when you make Laws to target
minorities. The problem is the Law in the first place, we can legislate
prosecute all day and continue to make the same problems, or we can go back to
the 1800 when the government legislated against minority groups and undo the
mistakes. Sure is fun cleaning up the mess of 100 year old politicians? The way
it�s looking in another 100 years, our children will have
an even bigger mess to clean up. The Polygamy laws were unconstitutional in the
first place.
Lets Look At Harry Reid | 5:11 a.m. May 9, 2008
First lets have the feds investigate how the state of Texas has abused their
power through the years and violoted the rughts of parents and children.
I say we get the feds to bird dog Harry Reid to see what crimes he has committed since being a senator.
If he has vioted any laws deny him access to his Grand Children.
I say we get the feds to bird dog Harry Reid to see what crimes he has committed since being a senator.
If he has vioted any laws deny him access to his Grand Children.
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