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Advocacy group: Sex abuse would trump FLDS religious freedoms
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Jules | 7:41 p.m. May 8, 2008
Yea..maybe they didnt discover 14 or 15 year old pregnant girls, but did they
find 16 or 17 year old girls with multiple children? Do the math. It takes 9
months to have a baby.
Deceived Again | 7:42 p.m. May 8, 2008
The Media now has the public conviced that the FLDS
relgion are are old men raping women.
And some of you on this blog beleive it also.
Where have the laws of our country gone. By the wayside in Texas. Foster care is far worse than
staying with the parents in most cases.
These people (COKE County, Texas) have shown
that it is still possible to run an unwanted people
out of town. Legal Blackmail is alive and well in the United States.
No wonder other countrys laugh at the USA.
Child Protective Service should be changed to
Capricious Premature Seizure (CPS.
Please for the sake of these children all of you
who see what really is happening contact any and
all people in power to look deeply into this
travity of Justice against a peacefull group
of relgious zealots. I guess that Freedom of
religion is going soon. If your not with us your
aginst us mentality.
Any of the legal minds out there know that wholesale
seizure of a small city of children must violate some type of law in itself. I hope the FLDS hires
the best and most expensive attorneys in the United States. DO IT
relgion are are old men raping women.
And some of you on this blog beleive it also.
Where have the laws of our country gone. By the wayside in Texas. Foster care is far worse than
staying with the parents in most cases.
These people (COKE County, Texas) have shown
that it is still possible to run an unwanted people
out of town. Legal Blackmail is alive and well in the United States.
No wonder other countrys laugh at the USA.
Child Protective Service should be changed to
Capricious Premature Seizure (CPS.
Please for the sake of these children all of you
who see what really is happening contact any and
all people in power to look deeply into this
travity of Justice against a peacefull group
of relgious zealots. I guess that Freedom of
religion is going soon. If your not with us your
aginst us mentality.
Any of the legal minds out there know that wholesale
seizure of a small city of children must violate some type of law in itself. I hope the FLDS hires
the best and most expensive attorneys in the United States. DO IT
observer | 8:04 p.m. May 8, 2008
Hey "Jules":
We don't really know that their are 16 and 17 year olds with multiple children. More than twenty of the "teens" that CPS claims to have in custody are disputing the CPS "eyeball" test ... i.e. they say they are adult and say they have papers to prove it.
At least in one instance CPS was holding a 23yo, telling her that she was under 18. But eventually they released her.
There is also the issue of CPS telling mothers they could stay with their babies only if the mothers were minors. I think any mother worth her salt that thought she could stay with her baby by claiming to be under 18 would probably do so, even if she were actually older.
We don't really know that their are 16 and 17 year olds with multiple children. More than twenty of the "teens" that CPS claims to have in custody are disputing the CPS "eyeball" test ... i.e. they say they are adult and say they have papers to prove it.
At least in one instance CPS was holding a 23yo, telling her that she was under 18. But eventually they released her.
There is also the issue of CPS telling mothers they could stay with their babies only if the mothers were minors. I think any mother worth her salt that thought she could stay with her baby by claiming to be under 18 would probably do so, even if she were actually older.
Comments continue below
Sara | 8:10 p.m. May 8, 2008
TO Jules - do the math - the law was changed from marriage at 14 with parental
consent to 16 with parental consent in September 2005 with the FLDS in mind.
observer | 8:44 p.m. May 8, 2008
Hey "Jules" ... "do the math".
Just moments ago read another blog/article ... about:
"A member of the Yearning for Zion Church was in court Thursday, demanding the release of his pregnant wife and two children."
He is 24 and his pregnant wife is 24, but CPS has been holding her as a minor (in the 14-17yo group) since April 3.
The husband says they have papers (drivers license, birth certificate, and numerous other documents) to prove her age. But CPS will not let this 24yo pregnant woman go that is due to deliver 10 May 08.
So much for all those "teens" (14-17) CPS claimed to have that were "either pregnant or had children".
Anyone see "egg" on CPS face ... ;-)
Just moments ago read another blog/article ... about:
"A member of the Yearning for Zion Church was in court Thursday, demanding the release of his pregnant wife and two children."
He is 24 and his pregnant wife is 24, but CPS has been holding her as a minor (in the 14-17yo group) since April 3.
The husband says they have papers (drivers license, birth certificate, and numerous other documents) to prove her age. But CPS will not let this 24yo pregnant woman go that is due to deliver 10 May 08.
So much for all those "teens" (14-17) CPS claimed to have that were "either pregnant or had children".
Anyone see "egg" on CPS face ... ;-)
Professor H | 9:44 p.m. May 8, 2008
I feel so sorry for these fathers and mothers who have had their children taken
away by the state of Texas. To a loving parent, this would be the most horrible
thing that a government could do. A parent could never rest from worrying about
their children.
If a crime has been committed, then investigate the crime. But don't take the children.
This is severe religious persecution, based solely on misinformation.
These parents love their children and would not harm them.
If a crime has been committed, then investigate the crime. But don't take the children.
This is severe religious persecution, based solely on misinformation.
These parents love their children and would not harm them.
observer | 10:01 p.m. May 8, 2008
Hey "Professor H":
Could not agree with you more. I think you hit the nail right on the head: "This is severe religious persecution, based solely on misinformation."
To go a bit father, I would even suspect that some of this misinformation has been willfully generated (with malice) by persons in Government positions. People that should be playing by the rules, but are not.
To my mind the real criminals in this FLDS fiasco is the Court, CPS, and the Sheriffs office. Of course we should not forget the "good" citizens that put them in office.
Could not agree with you more. I think you hit the nail right on the head: "This is severe religious persecution, based solely on misinformation."
To go a bit father, I would even suspect that some of this misinformation has been willfully generated (with malice) by persons in Government positions. People that should be playing by the rules, but are not.
To my mind the real criminals in this FLDS fiasco is the Court, CPS, and the Sheriffs office. Of course we should not forget the "good" citizens that put them in office.
New Hampshire Dad | 10:20 p.m. May 8, 2008
I'm disgusted with the Texas CPS for not taking the time and effort
necessary to research and prove at least a few criminal acts before taking ALL
the kids, abused or not. This doesn't mean I'm defending the FLDS or
any of their possibly criminal acts. I understand that CPS powers don't
require due process in the way that other crimes do, but it seems clear to me
that common sense would suggest that individual cases should have been
researched, and only some children should have been taken. Or perhaps no
children at all but just the particular offending fathers. Or perhaps just one
particular father so that they could have a test case to get the ball rolling.
I've read that the marrying ages were higher before Jeffs became the
leader, and that he moved the age lower. What if the FLDS moved the marrying age
back up to a number such as 18 or 19? Would that get the Texas authorities off
of their backs? My guess is no, because there are other aspects of the FLDS life
style that irritate them - funny looking clothes, kids that don't play with
standard "made in China" toys, etc.
Dan | 11:08 p.m. May 8, 2008
Hey Professor H, why are you an apologist for this rapist cult and its female
enablers, aka their mothers?
You said: "These parents love their children and would not harm them." I can't tell if you statement is entirely ignorant of the situation or just arrogance as you agree with the general religious premise behind these despicable acts.
I can tell you as a very loving father to a precious angel of a daughter, I would not allow her to marry a grown man for some backward religion. I want her to marry someone who she loves and will love her for who she is REGARDLESS of religion.
I find it utterly perplexing to read all these posts in support of this despicable cult. I can't tell the difference between you and the people who condone and encourage Muslim fundamentalists. There is no difference in my eyes. Both seek blind adherence to a false and bastard faith that has no place in our modern world.
You said: "These parents love their children and would not harm them." I can't tell if you statement is entirely ignorant of the situation or just arrogance as you agree with the general religious premise behind these despicable acts.
I can tell you as a very loving father to a precious angel of a daughter, I would not allow her to marry a grown man for some backward religion. I want her to marry someone who she loves and will love her for who she is REGARDLESS of religion.
I find it utterly perplexing to read all these posts in support of this despicable cult. I can't tell the difference between you and the people who condone and encourage Muslim fundamentalists. There is no difference in my eyes. Both seek blind adherence to a false and bastard faith that has no place in our modern world.
observer | 11:35 p.m. May 8, 2008
Dear "Dan" bigot:
What the world has not space for is ignorant intolerant religious bigots.
I suspect you truly do love your daughter, probably very much in the same way FLDS mothers and father love their children. After all (you may not realize this), but they are human too.
SO you say "I would not allow her [your daughter] to marry a grown man for some backward religion"? Well what if that was what she wanted, why not? Are you one of those fathers that would deny her free choice, if that is what she wanted? Sounds a bit authoritarian of you.
Seems to me there are lots of people out here that just want to point the finger at someone else's religious beliefs and judge/condemn them as wrong and unacceptable. Well, unacceptable to who? Is not that the very definition of a religious bigot?
What the world has not space for is ignorant intolerant religious bigots.
I suspect you truly do love your daughter, probably very much in the same way FLDS mothers and father love their children. After all (you may not realize this), but they are human too.
SO you say "I would not allow her [your daughter] to marry a grown man for some backward religion"? Well what if that was what she wanted, why not? Are you one of those fathers that would deny her free choice, if that is what she wanted? Sounds a bit authoritarian of you.
Seems to me there are lots of people out here that just want to point the finger at someone else's religious beliefs and judge/condemn them as wrong and unacceptable. Well, unacceptable to who? Is not that the very definition of a religious bigot?
I -no | 11:51 p.m. May 8, 2008
OMG. You people just don't get it. The Flds is all about power, control,
money and sex for Warren Jeffs and his "favorites". Ironicaly they
are the only ones in this "religion" that know it's a bunch of
hogwash. It is necessary to withhold education from women or they would HAVE NO
WOMEN. Maybe this whole process will help some of these women "see the
light".
Also you don't need a pelvic exam to determine whether or not some one is pregnant. Get a grip people.
Also you don't need a pelvic exam to determine whether or not some one is pregnant. Get a grip people.
observer | 12:48 a.m. May 9, 2008
Hey "I -no":
Maybe you don't get it. Maybe you need to see the light. Maybe you should get a grip.
The only thing this process is doing is torturing a bunch of pretty nice kids that had pretty darn good homes with family that truly cared bout them. Now their homes and families have been destroyed. Amazing how "do-gooders" always think they know all the answers bout what is good for everyone else, whether everyone else wants their help or not.
Wonder how long before CPS starts drugging these kids, "in their best interest" (of course?).
Maybe you don't get it. Maybe you need to see the light. Maybe you should get a grip.
The only thing this process is doing is torturing a bunch of pretty nice kids that had pretty darn good homes with family that truly cared bout them. Now their homes and families have been destroyed. Amazing how "do-gooders" always think they know all the answers bout what is good for everyone else, whether everyone else wants their help or not.
Wonder how long before CPS starts drugging these kids, "in their best interest" (of course?).
Buckland | 8:45 a.m. May 9, 2008
Just read today's news;
along with 50+ gang shootings around the us we also have a Texas teens who dug up a grave to make a skull bong; teens assaulted on a school bus, teen nearly killing kids on school field with a car, teen accused of shooting his mother; teen tried to poison dad; teen got mrsa from lip piercing - almost died; teen drug and sex epidemic; mother and teen children busted in drug raid; school suspending teen drug dealer.. etc. What can we learn from the FLDS - who do NOT have these problems:
- a strong traditional family eliminates many social problems
- a strong family community stops teen antisocial behavior.
- a father based family creates a strong society.
- caring in home mothers allow families to thrive.
The FLDS because there way of is an unintentional chastisement of our own. Our society is in disarray, our families in ruin, miserable childless career woman force us to import labor in the form illegal immigrants, our children use more drugs and alcohol and commit more violent crime than any other on the planet, the 2nd major cause of teen is violent crime.
along with 50+ gang shootings around the us we also have a Texas teens who dug up a grave to make a skull bong; teens assaulted on a school bus, teen nearly killing kids on school field with a car, teen accused of shooting his mother; teen tried to poison dad; teen got mrsa from lip piercing - almost died; teen drug and sex epidemic; mother and teen children busted in drug raid; school suspending teen drug dealer.. etc. What can we learn from the FLDS - who do NOT have these problems:
- a strong traditional family eliminates many social problems
- a strong family community stops teen antisocial behavior.
- a father based family creates a strong society.
- caring in home mothers allow families to thrive.
The FLDS because there way of is an unintentional chastisement of our own. Our society is in disarray, our families in ruin, miserable childless career woman force us to import labor in the form illegal immigrants, our children use more drugs and alcohol and commit more violent crime than any other on the planet, the 2nd major cause of teen is violent crime.
John | 8:48 a.m. May 9, 2008
I-no;
The FLDS is all about family values, fulfillment through family and community. They might have more 17 y.o. mothers, but those mothers are more well adjust, responsible and emotionally stable than most 30 y.o. american career women. Troubled societies create troubled children, teens and adults. We see that in our own - but Not in the FLDS. Clearly they are living lifes that create better conditions for children than our own society. We have massive drug abuse, violent crime, alocholism and std's among our teens, - the FLDS has none of this, not even porportionally.
The FLDS is all about family values, fulfillment through family and community. They might have more 17 y.o. mothers, but those mothers are more well adjust, responsible and emotionally stable than most 30 y.o. american career women. Troubled societies create troubled children, teens and adults. We see that in our own - but Not in the FLDS. Clearly they are living lifes that create better conditions for children than our own society. We have massive drug abuse, violent crime, alocholism and std's among our teens, - the FLDS has none of this, not even porportionally.
Re: I -no | 9:10 a.m. May 9, 2008
CPS made allegations of "routine" sexual abuse.
Once that allegation is made they then have to determine "which" of 464 infants and children this has happened to.
So ALL 464 are examined - boys and girls - infants and children.
The pelvic exams are CPS "routine procedure" NOT to determine "pregnancy" but to determine "sexual abuse".
There is a relatively small number of adolescents - the bulk of these exams will be done to infants and YOUNG girls (young boys will undergo rectal exams).
Because this procedure IS INVASIVE and TRAUMATIC to young girls - CPS is CAUSING THIS TRAUMA to HUNDREDS of infants and young children.
No mothers allowed to explain or comfort.
People are screaming that FLDS mothers "allowing" sexual abuse to "children" (adolescents) due to "what they've been taught to believe" is NO EXCUSE and they should lose their children.
HOWEVER:These same people are perfectly okay with sexual trauma happening to infants and YOUNG girls and boys - in the custody of Texas.
BECAUSE "they've been taught to believe" that:
Since this is defined as "medical procedure" - it isn't considered sexual abuse - so, the TRAUMA CAUSED by THIS - while "unfortunate" "doesn't count".
Once that allegation is made they then have to determine "which" of 464 infants and children this has happened to.
So ALL 464 are examined - boys and girls - infants and children.
The pelvic exams are CPS "routine procedure" NOT to determine "pregnancy" but to determine "sexual abuse".
There is a relatively small number of adolescents - the bulk of these exams will be done to infants and YOUNG girls (young boys will undergo rectal exams).
Because this procedure IS INVASIVE and TRAUMATIC to young girls - CPS is CAUSING THIS TRAUMA to HUNDREDS of infants and young children.
No mothers allowed to explain or comfort.
People are screaming that FLDS mothers "allowing" sexual abuse to "children" (adolescents) due to "what they've been taught to believe" is NO EXCUSE and they should lose their children.
HOWEVER:These same people are perfectly okay with sexual trauma happening to infants and YOUNG girls and boys - in the custody of Texas.
BECAUSE "they've been taught to believe" that:
Since this is defined as "medical procedure" - it isn't considered sexual abuse - so, the TRAUMA CAUSED by THIS - while "unfortunate" "doesn't count".
Funny | 9:13 a.m. May 9, 2008
"OBSERVER" must be one of the FLDS lawyer...because this person seems
to have nothing else to do but to sit here and watch for new comments so that he
can defend this sick people that have done a lot of wrong if that wasn't
the case they wouldn't have their children taken away or their leader in
prison!!! The funny thing is that this guy must think that spending all of his
time here is making a difference in the public eye....sorry dude...think again!
Re John & others | 9:42 a.m. May 9, 2008
The �better conditions� you
describe.... have you left out the fact that any boy who does not comply with
all the rules is left on the side of the road to fend for himself with no money
or food? Did you mention that the same boys are not considered part of the FLDS
group anymore and are just thrown into the ugly mix some are using a
straw-man?
The values and life style of the FLDS are admirable EXCEPT the whole throw away the boys and encourage underage sex with the girls stuff. I tend to admire the Amish much more because they live within the laws of the land.
The values and life style of the FLDS are admirable EXCEPT the whole throw away the boys and encourage underage sex with the girls stuff. I tend to admire the Amish much more because they live within the laws of the land.
evidence | 9:56 a.m. May 9, 2008
Re: Re: I -no | 9:10 a.m. May 9, 2008
Many are screaming for evidence. The state of Texas is trying to provide evidence of sexual abuse. The evidence should be physical, especially in this case with so many children involved.
Rape is control and violence not a medical exam.
Two of my children had to be examined because a person/caregiver was accused of sex abuse. One of my children (5 years old) "tested" positive with an STD. The children remember a kind Dr. and nurse that �stopped� the mean man from hurting them.
Many are screaming for evidence. The state of Texas is trying to provide evidence of sexual abuse. The evidence should be physical, especially in this case with so many children involved.
Rape is control and violence not a medical exam.
Two of my children had to be examined because a person/caregiver was accused of sex abuse. One of my children (5 years old) "tested" positive with an STD. The children remember a kind Dr. and nurse that �stopped� the mean man from hurting them.
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