Deseret News | Reader comments: LDS teens injured in Arizona attack

Reader comments
LDS teens injured in Arizona attack

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Mesa | 9:43 a.m. May 7, 2008

Hate crime? Surely you jest. Now if it was a Baptist or a Catholic or gay or anything else, it would be a hate crime. But violence and church burnings against the Mormon church are not quite yet considered .... uhhhhh....hate crimes. Yeah..that's the wording. There. I said it.

SoJo | 11:11 a.m. May 7, 2008

I'm not sure of the point Mesa is trying to make, however violence brought upon a person(s) because of race or religion in anyway qualifies. Bullying and intolerance is an ugly problem facing our supposed civilized society.

FLDS tie? | 12:03 p.m. May 7, 2008

I'll bet the Hate Crime wording was used due to the higher profile FLDS situation and the common misconception that FLDS = LDS.

Comments continue below

Matthew | 12:15 p.m. May 7, 2008

Personally I don't support the concept of "hate crime" since the action is what is criminal not the motive. To treat it otherwise is to advocate thought police. Whether the kids committed assault because they were LDS, or because they were wearing Lakers tee shirts, doesn't really matter. The crime was assault.

Having said that; this is probably fallout from the unabashed religious bigotry that was openly displayed, and not repudiated, during the Romney candidacy. The same bigotry was then further exercised in the YFZ Ranch raid. Yes, they are two completely separate religions. The trouble is bigots donï¿½t tend to be very quick on the uptake regarding differences in the objects of their bigotry.

Being a bigot shouldnï¿½t be criminal; doing something illegal based on your bigotry is criminal.

bubba | 12:18 p.m. May 7, 2008

I sure hope Mesa is being sarcastic.

Bubba | 12:22 p.m. May 7, 2008

Mathew -

You are so right. Punish actions not thoughts or beliefs.

Hate Crime laws are silly and make dangerous precedents.

Robert | 12:49 p.m. May 7, 2008

There are many who still think it socially acceptable to be malicious to a person according to their faith. History repeats itself. Since the earliest records, nations have been supressed because of their faith. In our society it is social extremism. The act of ganging up against that which we do not understand or fear. (media bias is the worst offender). How many muslims are peace loving people but because of the extremists, the rest suffer. How many people hear about mormons from their preachers, friends, associates and pass on stinging and unsubstantiated rumors, and yet never really find out what most mormons truly believe? Many nay sayers and antagonists don't want to see anything other than what they want to see. Many people I meet, find that I am very nice and friendly. They find me good company to be around. Many of those, when they find out I am mormon, change their demeanor. Why? am I a different person than I was before they knew? African-americans claim there is racism and bias raging in our community...in this, I add bigotry. Any way you cut it, many don't think so unitl it happens to you.

Re: Matthew | 12:50 p.m. May 7, 2008

"Personally I don't support the concept of "hate crime" since the action is what is criminal not the motive."

Sometimes the motive is the ONLY difference between a crime and an innocent act.

Idahoan | 1:19 p.m. May 7, 2008

I agree with Matthew about the hate crime concept. A crime is a crime. I've heard expressed the idea that any crime is an act of hate or disrespect. I don't like the idea of focusing on the thought behind an act. It seems like a thought or intent is sometimes punished more than a criminal act. This hate crime concept is pushed too far in that people get punished for non-criminal acts just because of their opinions. In France last week a well-known woman was facing the possibility of jail or prison for a couple years because she criticized someone or something. There is nothing criminal in that.

I fear that condemning sin is labeled as a hate crime sometimes or could be soon. If I condemn something, I am in no way encouraging any criminal behavior. Nor am I telling someone else that they should harm someone who is committing the sin. I am saying something is wrong and shouldn't be facing prosecution for that.

BK | 1:26 p.m. May 7, 2008

Let the persecution begin. I think you are going to see more of this in the future. a lot of people out there think LDS and FLDS are the same thing. More people are going to attack Mormons in the future.

CRM | 1:34 p.m. May 7, 2008

Actually the story yesterday, as reported by the East Valley Tribune which is published in Mesa, AZ, indicated the two youth sporting the Swastikas on their wrists approached the other two and asked them if they were "Mormon". When they repied in the affirmitive the attack began. I think a reasonable person would conclude that the attack was motivated by religious inference, which, by definition, would constitute a "hate crime". The report also indicated that the police are continuing to investigate ---- I would hope so!

Just wondering........ | 1:35 p.m. May 7, 2008

I just don't see why people have to get violent when they have a problem with someone. Why do people always want to make someone suffer when they don't like what someone does? Everyone has the right to do what they want as long as it doesn't hurt another. Why do we live in this country anyways? WE want the freedom to do things we want. But with this comes the responsiblity of respecting others. I guess my point is that we shouldn't care what others do. Cause if you don't care about them, they will leave you alone. Don't push your beliefs on someone. Just worry about yourself, and all will be ok.

Thought crimes | 1:45 p.m. May 7, 2008

Murder 1, 2, 3...
Pre-meditated murder
Manslaughter
Homicide
Killing an unborn child (viable not yet born)
Self-defense
Vehicular homicide

ALL of these crimes are judged and sentenced based on intent (for those who are slower... the THOUHGT that happens before and/or during the act of ending a life).

The intent of assault can be a defense if the thoughts are the ï¿½rightï¿½ ones.
I would suggest you think before you speak/type but then you would be held to a higher degree of responsibility for what you say/write.

Sansei Shimasu | 1:47 p.m. May 7, 2008

The crime is absolutely what should be punished. As diversity grows and differences cause tension in our society, every simple assault will become a hate crime under the over-expansive definitions employed in our penal codes.
Everyone deserves protection under the law regardless if you skin is a different color, your religion is not main stream, or your belief systems are skewed.
As for "just wondering..." we should care what other people do. Our society is built on ideas that need to be voiced and challenged, just not with fists.

Unfortunately | 1:54 p.m. May 7, 2008

Yes, this is just an assumption - but kids like this would probably take the chance to assault anyone. I am guessing they have some simmering hatred just for Mormons and treat everyone else with respect and dignity. It just so happens they got caught this time.

Unfortunately Cont. | 1:59 p.m. May 7, 2008

I meant to say these kind of kids probably DON'T just have it out for Mormons. Kids like this will take the chance to do this kind of think any chance they get. I imagine them saying hey are you - black, Jew, Muslim, etc etc. Let's be careful not to make this a return to Nauvoo (persecution complex) anymore than we already have this past year. I've really seen a rise in this "the world is against us" attitude over several months.

Re: Thought crimes | 2:28 p.m. May 7, 2008

Great post.

And sometimes the intent, makes the action not a crime at all.

Occassionally, people are actually killed by someone who is just trying to help them.

Jim | 2:49 p.m. May 7, 2008

Hate crime = Affirmative action
It's all about being politically correct these days.

Just me, but... | 2:49 p.m. May 7, 2008

I would say that "intent" makes all the difference. As a mother, motive is probably THE most important factor in determining if and how a child is punished. Seems like it should be the same in society.

Mr. Law | 4:10 p.m. May 7, 2008

For those of you attempting to distinguish between intent, action and crime, many crimes have more to do with intent than with any injury or "crime" committed against an individual. Take assault, for instance. To commit a common law assault, the perpetrator need not even arouse a sense of an immediate threat of harm in the victim. Rather, all that matters is that the perpetrator of the assault have 1) the intent to (a) inflict harm or (b) attempt to inflict harm, 2) the apparent ability to carry out such harm and 3) an attempt to inflict the harm. The key here is the intent. The only way to gauge the criminality of an action is to look beyond the actual action and determine the underlying motivation for taking the action. Thus, intentionally inflicting harm on another human being by targeting individuals of a certain race, sex, religion or otherwise shows a heightened degree of depravity on the part of the individual and should be punished commensurately.

ME | 4:33 p.m. May 7, 2008

Um, lol, aren't ALL violent crimes "hate" crimes.

Clark Larsen | 5:03 p.m. May 7, 2008

Whatever happened to the idea that physically attacking anyone, no matter the motive, is wrong?

I think it's sad that someone would attack another person because of their religion. But honestly, how is that any different than a bully beating up a little kid, or a mugger attacking an old lady?

I will say this about this particular crime. This should give everyone the opportunity to examine their own feelings and prejudices. If I am LDS, am I shunning those not of my faith? If I'm not a member of one group, do I make fun of people in other groups?

We don't have to agree with others in order to show them love and respect.

Give Peace A Chance. -John Lennon

RE: Idahoan | 5:24 p.m. May 7, 2008

You wouldn't happen to be from C'our delane (spelling), would you? Just wondering... ;o)

To Mesa | 5:26 p.m. May 7, 2008

Do you know how many kids I've talked to that have been accosted or beatup here in Utah just because they're not LDS? I know my son has had obcenities yelled at him because he attends a Catholic high school. He's had kids try to start fights with him soley because he's not LDS. Luckly he's been able to diffuse it partly because he's 6'3" and because he didn't feel it was a big enough issue to start throwing fists. It happens to anyone that is in a minority and ingnorant portions of the majority band together. Some of this is taught at home and some from the friends that they associate with.
It is a problem with all segments of society.

To To Mesa | 5:38 p.m. May 7, 2008

People are stupid. That's all I have to say. Those teens who yell at your son or who beat him up because he isn't LDS, are absurd.

RE: To To Mesa | 5:45 p.m. May 7, 2008

I think that that was my point. Peolple can be stupid. It doesn't matter the religion. It has to do with upbringing and views towards social minorities.

AZ | 6:17 p.m. May 7, 2008

Lots of people are pretty much feed up with the mormon thing here in arizona. The mormons bring it on themselves, they need to learn to go about their own business and leave other people alone.

To AZ | 6:34 p.m. May 7, 2008

So you know enough about the incident to claim that that LDS boys brought it on themselves because they admitted belonging to a particular church?

How many will see the light? | 6:34 p.m. May 7, 2008

Many Utah'ns don't see the need for hate crime laws. After all one shouldn't be punished for hating. Now that being LDS is apparently a cause for being attacked, I wonder how many people will see the light?

Idahoan | 6:35 p.m. May 7, 2008

No, I'm not from Coeur D' Alene. Why? Would that make what I said less acceptable or valid?

Re; Idahoan | 6:56 p.m. May 7, 2008

Coeur d' Alene is a great place. My cousin lives there. He tells me they kicked out the Neo Natzi skin heads. I think she said they moved to Arizona, where they would be more at home.

Arizonan | 8:45 p.m. May 7, 2008

Ouch!

Observer | 8:58 p.m. May 7, 2008

All crimes are hate crimes. We have dumbed down society so much that a discussion like this has to occur. Is it not hateful to harm another regardless of the reason. I guess that depends on the meaning of the word are.

Idahoan | 9:04 p.m. May 7, 2008

The victim of a crime still feels lousy whether or not the crime was considered a hate crime. If someone pummels me in the face for no good reason, I'm not going to feel better than if someone pummeled me out of bigotry.

Also, if I get terrible injuries from an attack that is random while another person gets lucky to only suffer minor injuries in a "hate crime" attack, why should the person who attacked me have a lesser sentence than the one who committed the hate crime? Because the motive for the latter was worse than the injury for the former? No, that doesn't make sense. Nor is it right.

Yes, thoughts can lead to actions or acts. However, not every thought it acted upon. We do have the ability to choose what to do with our thoughts.

GWBush | 9:21 p.m. May 7, 2008

Has set the greatest example of BULLY and HATE of others different in that he has tried for 7 years to create a hatred toward Muslims. We are hearing one side of the story, what did the other boys do to antagonize -- was it really so one sided or does the story not make it to the news if you have a group of boys fighting it out for petty reasons. How convenient to use their religion as a reason.

Anonymous | 9:25 p.m. May 7, 2008

These boys got what they deserved. Arrogant LDS run around condemning others and making out to be above everyone else, they need to be brought a little dose of reality once in a while.

Blind hate | 9:49 p.m. May 7, 2008

Anonymous - 9:25 p.m WELL DONE! There's nothing that says ignorance, hypocrisy and blind hatred more than blaming the victims in this case. I suppose you personally know everyone involved in this case?

To Mesa - 5:26 p.m I grew up in the Rose Park area of Salt Lake City. I attended Jackson Elementary, Northwest Middle School and West High School.

NOT ONCE was I ever told to cuss at or start fights with kids because they were not LDS. NOT ONCE did I ever have an LDS friend say, "Hey, let's go beat up the Catholic kid." And NOT ONCE did I ever shun someone because they were not LDS.

My growing up experience was wonderful because I had friends of all races and religions, and this gave me a better opportunity to understand those different from myself. After my LDS mission, I worked in North Carolina and that was an even better experience for me.

Ignorance is evil and everyone must deal with it, not just LDS people.

love ya all | 10:01 p.m. May 7, 2008

Anonymous,

I can understand young people still having problems with understanding the need for tolerance and civility. One wrong doesn't make another wrong ok. How old are you?

Also AZ | 10:13 p.m. May 7, 2008

I take exception with AZ at 6:17 pm. There are a lot of LDS people here on the Southeast corner of the Phoenix area and most of them are really good people. They participate in the community, help out in the schools- I don't know many at all who are "arrogant" and deserve to be treated like this. Most people aren't "fed up" with the Mormons here!!! These kids didn't deserve this- didn't do anything to bring it on themselves other than answer truthfully when they were asked if they were Mormon.

My own little world | 10:37 p.m. May 7, 2008

That's the problem with living in Utah. There are dumb people everywhere, hopefully in Utah a few less, but the odds are good that some of the dumb ones will be LDS. The many good, kind, Christian LDS are nameless and faceless.

Some here have missed the point - intent defines the crime, not hate. We don't need more justice for some and by definition less justice for others. We just need justice.

To matthew | 12:56 a.m. May 8, 2008

"Whether the kids committed assault because they were LDS, or because they were wearing Lakers tee shirts, doesn't really matter."

Wow. I can't express how pathetic that sounds to me. Motive makes all the difference. Utah and everywhere else does need hate crime laws.

To all you LDS out there, Nephi cut Laban's head off and I don't think too many of you consider him a murderer. Motive is everything, unfortunately it's also pretty hard to establish most of this time.

I'd say this article makes it pretty clear why this assault was committed, becuase the two kids were LDS. Whether it actually happened like the article describes is debatable, but what the article describes is most definitely a hate crime. Oh and no one should take offense over the ignorant comments. We just need to try and help enlighten these people.

to just wondering | 1:06 a.m. May 8, 2008

"I guess my point is that we shouldn't care what others do. Cause if you don't care about them, they will leave you alone. Don't push your beliefs on someone. Just worry about yourself, and all will be ok."

I'm pretty sure these two young kids that got beat up didn't really care about what the accused thought about them until after they got beat up. Just worry about yourself and all will be okay. Yeah right. Pacifism doesn't work unfortunately. You sound like a Frenchman, but I think they learned their lesson with Hitler. It does matter what other people think and do, and stupidity should never be acceted on any level.

If your beliefs are true then yes they should be pushed on other people. I believe that all men everywhere should be allowed to worship how, when, where or what they may as long as that doesn't harm anyone else and I do try and push that belief!!

Anonymous | 6:58 a.m. May 8, 2008

Isn't their usually a motive of some sort for anyone to beat up another person, and if there isn't one but a person still beats up another why should they have any less of a charge because there was no motive. They still commited assault.
What is the difference.

Me | 8:17 a.m. May 8, 2008

Of course "intent" can, and must be used in judging a crime. Accidental death versus intentional murder. However, saying the intent was to hurt someone is sufficient, it doesn't matter if the intent is due to religion or just some other random cause.

Stop It | 10:46 a.m. May 8, 2008

NO ONE - REPEAT - NO ONE DESERVES TO GET BEAT UP LIKE THIS!

STOP THE HATE! STOP IT! Do we want to end up like the Northern Ireland, Rwanda or Iraq?

Hate is EVIL! STOP IT!

To Me 8:17am | 10:48 a.m. May 8, 2008

Thank you! I think you are one of the only people to have actually posted something logical. This is the heart of the case--the only thing that matters is that there was intent to harm.
I agree that intent does matter, in that there is a huge difference between premeditated murder and manslaughter, but whether that premeditated murder was done because of religion or because "he stole my ex-" or whatever else, it shouldn't make a difference. I don't want these boys treated differently just because the victims belonged to a certain church.

Polly123 | 11:32 a.m. May 8, 2008

I am sure its FLDS related, history tends to show when a specific religion or race does something that is terrible or not of the norm people tend to generalize and lash out, it happened to Muslims after 9/11 and German immigrants during WWII. I am not from here and I will tell you outside of Utah not many people know the difference. I didn't till I moved here.

NOT a hate crime | 11:44 a.m. May 8, 2008

A real hate crime is perpetrated upon someone for a characteristic they do not choose, such as the person's race or sexual orientation. NOT for holding idiotic religious beliefs (in this case believing in Mormonism). Although beating up LDS or FLDS or alien-believers is a crime, it is NOT a hate crime.

Also AZ | 12:01 p.m. May 8, 2008

The LDS boys were just sitting in a park minding their own business. The other 2 boys- a 16 yr old member of the local high school varsity football team and a 15 yr old friend walked up to the LDS kids and asked if they were Mormon. When they said yes, they began assaulting them. The 2 were arrested, and it was discovered that they had swastikas tattooed on their wrists, and alcohol was involved. I sure see how those arrogant LDS kids brought it on themselves by sitting in a park talking! Darn Mormons- who do they think they are anyway making use of the public parks! This is only a couple of miles from my house and it concerns me greatly! It would also concern me greatly if the boys that were beaten up were Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, black, brown purple or green!
Some of you are pretty pathetic in your posts and need to grow up and get over yourselves!!

Educate Yourself | 12:10 p.m. May 8, 2008

For all of you who appear to be ingorant:

Hate crimes (also known as bias motivated crimes) occur when a perpetrator targets a victim because of his or her membership in a certain social group, usually defined by race, religion, sexual orientation, disability, ethnicity, nationality, age, gender, gender identity, or political affiliation.[1]

Hate crime can take many forms. Incidents may involve physical assault, damage to property, bullying, harassment, verbal abuse or insults, or offensive graffiti or letters.[2]

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