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Legal experts say what FLDS can do now is cooperate
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Red | 9:32 a.m. May 7, 2008
Proud Texan: "It's amazing to me that so many of you don't think
there's anything wrong with 50-year-old perverted scumbags raping
14-year-old children, ..."
This wasn't "rape" until 2005. Before that, no Texan had a problem with such a May-December relationship. Were all Texans perverts before 2005?
This wasn't "rape" until 2005. Before that, no Texan had a problem with such a May-December relationship. Were all Texans perverts before 2005?
California foster mom | 9:39 a.m. May 7, 2008
As a foster mother I've seen what it does to kids when they are removed
from their family of origin. I've held them while they cried. I've
watched them destroy hundreds of dollars of property when they are angry.
I've been assaulted in anger more times than I can remember. I've
walked them through the court process and held them again when they cried after
giving testimony. I've taken them to therapy to help them process what has
become of their lives.
And now I'm being asked to adopt those children because their parents would not do what was required of them.
The parents in the FLDS aren't going to be asked how they feel about what the court requires of them...they will either follow the plan laid out for them or their parental rights will be terminated, and someone else will have to explain to the children why it was more important to their parents to be right than it was to be their parent.
And now I'm being asked to adopt those children because their parents would not do what was required of them.
The parents in the FLDS aren't going to be asked how they feel about what the court requires of them...they will either follow the plan laid out for them or their parental rights will be terminated, and someone else will have to explain to the children why it was more important to their parents to be right than it was to be their parent.
Comments continue below
Re: Susan | 9:41 a.m. May 7, 2008
"What's amazing is that you and much of Texas did not condemn the
practice (actually the law) in Texas of allowing 14 year old girls to marry
older men UNTIL the FLDS came to town. Go figure."
The answer lies in your own statement.
Before the FLDS came to Texas, Texas "ALLOWED" 14- year-old girls to marry older men of their choice.
The FLDS "FORCED" 14-year-old girls to marry older men that they had no part in choosing.
Texas knew from cases in Utah and Arizona that the FLDS were doing this, so they changed their laws to prevent the FLDS from having a legal loophole to continue making young girls sexual slaves to older men.
The answer lies in your own statement.
Before the FLDS came to Texas, Texas "ALLOWED" 14- year-old girls to marry older men of their choice.
The FLDS "FORCED" 14-year-old girls to marry older men that they had no part in choosing.
Texas knew from cases in Utah and Arizona that the FLDS were doing this, so they changed their laws to prevent the FLDS from having a legal loophole to continue making young girls sexual slaves to older men.
Robin Wildflower | 9:40 a.m. May 7, 2008
"I am here today to release disturbing information found during my investigation about the deaths, poisonings, rapes and pregnancies of children in our state's foster care system.
"I found, from information provided by the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services, in Fiscal 2003, 30 foster children died in our state's care; in Fiscal 2004, 38 foster children died; and in Fiscal 2005, 48 foster children died.
"Data shows that while the number of foster children in our state's care increased 24 percent from 26,133 in Fiscal 2003 to 32,474 in Fiscal 2005, the number of deaths increased 60 percent.
"If you compare the number of deaths of children in our state's population to the number of deaths in our state's foster care system, a child is four times more likely to die in our state's foster care system.
"Based on Fiscal 2004 data provided by the Health and Human Services Commission, about 100 children received treatment for poisoning from medications; 63 foster children received medical treatment for rape that occurred while in the foster care system; and 142 children gave birth while in the state foster care system.
From Carole Keeton Strayhorn:Texas Comptroller's
Statement on Foster Care Abuse
Evidence | 9:43 a.m. May 7, 2008
If there was actual evidence of abuse, the guilty party would already have been
arrested. Has anybody been arrested on abuse charges? Nope, then they are on a
fishing expedition. Do FLDS children have broken bones? Yes, but at a rate
lower than should be expected. What is occurring now is an attempt at
justification for the raid.
Ultimately it is the warrant that is the issue. One warrant for 3500 acres, 19 buildings, and many individual apartments. When a request was made to see said warrant, the officer refused instead commenting that "the main man and attorney had a copy." Odd, how so many here consider the FLDS sexist despite the state reaction. The end result will be a challenge of that warrant to the Supreme Court and then a compromise to save the state $$ and will allow for the legalization of polygamy in Texas. All this could have been avoided had the judge only listened to the words of the FLDS expert testimony.
Again, there is no real evidence to suggest child abuse or the perpetrator would already have a warrant issued. This is a fishing expedition to justify the actions of the state.
Ultimately it is the warrant that is the issue. One warrant for 3500 acres, 19 buildings, and many individual apartments. When a request was made to see said warrant, the officer refused instead commenting that "the main man and attorney had a copy." Odd, how so many here consider the FLDS sexist despite the state reaction. The end result will be a challenge of that warrant to the Supreme Court and then a compromise to save the state $$ and will allow for the legalization of polygamy in Texas. All this could have been avoided had the judge only listened to the words of the FLDS expert testimony.
Again, there is no real evidence to suggest child abuse or the perpetrator would already have a warrant issued. This is a fishing expedition to justify the actions of the state.
Anonymous | 9:52 a.m. May 7, 2008
Cooperate? They have done just that since the very start of the RAID. But how
do you cooperate with someone that is hellbent on finding something wrong with
you. The ladies were lied to dozens of times. and were tricked into going to the
shelters so that the news people could say, that they chose to go to the
shelters, and leave it up to your wild imagations as to why. How do you
cooperate with the devil? They took all the family papers incluing burth
certificates and then wanted proof of who each one was. Someone had an Arizona
drivers license and Arizona gives drivers licenses till 65. Because the
expriation date was 30 yers in the future they said it was a fake and made
accuations of failsafing documents. Cooperation? They wanted to burn the
place and they do not CARE one bit about those children.
Sandy & Family | 9:53 a.m. May 7, 2008
Let me tell all you hypocritical judges out there and I do not mean just state
authorities. What would you do if they did not like your lifestyle or religion
so they came and accused you of abusing your children without solid proof? Then
they just took your children and that means everyones around you in the same
town or church or neighborhood. You could be next and I guess that you want
people to treat you this way. The FLDS has the right to stay away from the
outside world if they choose. I see healthy children other than the fact you
don't approve of their lifestyle. You legal experts need to figure out
that no agency is above the constitutional laws no matter who they are. All of
you wait until these agencies come and take your children because you won't
program them the way the state and government want them. I pray these people
get justice in the end and remember God will prevail!
TO constitutional | 9:56 a.m. May 7, 2008
What is so "pressing that you don't want to investigate?" You
cannot be serious. Children taken from home and familiar because they have
different beliefs and because former members suggest their experiences are the
norm. Unfortunately, if you pay close attention, the former stories have some
holes in them. For instance, Carolyn Jessop the author of the book Escape
claims that everyone thinks as one. Yet, she also claims that when Warren
issued a new revelation stating that the color red could not be worn, many women
continued to wear the color disobeying that revelation. You can't have it
both ways, they either are all hyper-obedient or they are free thinking. Her
own words suggest free thinking. She supposedly "escaped." Yet,
while the other wife called Merrill, no police were called though she
effectively committed parental kidnapping by removing children from their father
without permission. She claims abuse yet I see no charges, either domestic or
child. Her own daughter left, against her desires, at age 13 yet returned to
the FLDS two days after turning 18. She is now 19 and remains unmarried. The
abuse was supposedly severe, yet Betty returns at first chance. It isn't
adding up.
HD | 9:57 a.m. May 7, 2008
There is so much confusion surrounding the FLDS coupled with their secretive
nature that the lines between truth and fiction are blurred at best. Based upon
the facts as we know them now, laws were being broken regarding the polygamy
issue. You have the leader of the FLDS in jail because of this. You cannot
ignore the fact the there is a problem starting at the top and moving down. CPS
did the absolute best thing to try and sort out the issues. The fact the the
FLDS continue to evade questions and create more confusion by having the
children participate in lies does not help. No one is asking that the FLDS
renounce their faith, but to simply obey the laws of the land and give all of
their children a chance to understand the world they live in and the opportunity
to make decision. Many have commented that the state of Texas is repressive in
nature. What about the society these children were living in.
Re: Freddie | 10:05 a.m. May 7, 2008
Thankfully, there is a choice somewhere between brainwashed subservience to a
perverted dictatorial leader and uncontrolled debauchery.
Somewhere in the middle, thoughful, educated people have learned how to make their own choices between right and wrong, good and bad, modesty or immorality, healthful living or drug addictions, faith or godlessness.
Thankfully, we live in a society that permits "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness," each according to the dictates of our own conscience.
Please explain how a young, poorly educated girl being held in the FLDS compound with no contact to the outside world and being groomed to be forced into an arranged marriage with a man chosen for her as soon as she reaches puberty has those same rights that are supposed to be guaranteed for every U.S. citizen.
Somewhere in the middle, thoughful, educated people have learned how to make their own choices between right and wrong, good and bad, modesty or immorality, healthful living or drug addictions, faith or godlessness.
Thankfully, we live in a society that permits "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness," each according to the dictates of our own conscience.
Please explain how a young, poorly educated girl being held in the FLDS compound with no contact to the outside world and being groomed to be forced into an arranged marriage with a man chosen for her as soon as she reaches puberty has those same rights that are supposed to be guaranteed for every U.S. citizen.
wrz | 10:13 a.m. May 7, 2008
>>Do you really think that with all of the lawyers in this country, if
Texas had any laws that weren't "Constitutional," that
wouldn't have been challenged a long time ago? >Texas' CPS laws are
similar to CPS laws in other states. >Maybe there will be some changes made
because of this case, but the higher priority of protecting children from abuse
gives much more latitude to CPS to investigate and act. The courts have
recognized this higher priority.<<
The higher priority is the superior document. And the Constitution is the superior document. It prohibits governments from infringing upon religious rights. No state laws are valid which contradicts the Constitution.
If you think Constitutional rights should be overridden, then contact your Senator and have then take the necessary action.
The higher priority is the superior document. And the Constitution is the superior document. It prohibits governments from infringing upon religious rights. No state laws are valid which contradicts the Constitution.
If you think Constitutional rights should be overridden, then contact your Senator and have then take the necessary action.
XGI | 10:15 a.m. May 7, 2008
Susan said:
(The FLDS "FORCED" 14-year-old girls to marry older men that they had no part in choosing.)
This statement is false!
my heart | 10:22 a.m. May 7, 2008
cries for the children, and the "brainwashing" they are NO DOUBT
receiving from CPS.
wrz | 10:28 a.m. May 7, 2008
>>Where in the US Constitution to do find the "right" of parents
to abuse their children? >Children of any age, on the other hand, have a
right to be protected from being abused. >As has been stated over and over
and over and over again, it has NOTHING to do with the beliefs, legal or not, of
the FLDS.<<
Babes in arms and toddlers were not abused in any way. They were loved and cherished. Why, then, were they taken? The only answer has to be that the state decided that the teachings of the FLDS amounted to abuse. There can be no other logical conclusion.
Babes in arms and toddlers were not abused in any way. They were loved and cherished. Why, then, were they taken? The only answer has to be that the state decided that the teachings of the FLDS amounted to abuse. There can be no other logical conclusion.
Susan | 10:31 a.m. May 7, 2008
"Texas needs to pass a law requiring a judges approval before a minor can
marry anyone more than 5 years older than themselves and make it a criminal
offense comparable to rape for the older person."
Such a law would be found to be age discrimination. Which is against the law.
Such a law would be found to be age discrimination. Which is against the law.
FLDS Spamming | 10:32 a.m. May 7, 2008
Cut and paste the Bill of Rights and Texas CPS statistics to your heart's
content. It won't change anything.
All of the events leading up to the were reviewed and approved by the court in accordance with established procedures that had already passed constitutional muster.
No children have been taken permanently from their parents. No parents have been sent to prison.
The investigation is still on-going.
Those who want to short-circuit the investigation obviously aren't concerned with finding out the truth behind the allegations.
If they are so sure that no abuse will be found, why don't they want to see this investigation completed so that the FLDS will have a chance to be vindicated and to prove that they have done nothing wrong?
All of the events leading up to the were reviewed and approved by the court in accordance with established procedures that had already passed constitutional muster.
No children have been taken permanently from their parents. No parents have been sent to prison.
The investigation is still on-going.
Those who want to short-circuit the investigation obviously aren't concerned with finding out the truth behind the allegations.
If they are so sure that no abuse will be found, why don't they want to see this investigation completed so that the FLDS will have a chance to be vindicated and to prove that they have done nothing wrong?
David | 10:35 a.m. May 7, 2008
There is no evidence of child abuse or the person committing the child abuse
would already have a warrant. CPS also admits less than 10% of the children
have broken bones. This is LOWER than the average population.
You scream child rape, yet CPS has not found ANY case of rape. They only concern was underage marriage and the Bishop's records already discounted that. This is a fishing expedition only.
You think removing FLDS children removes some pretended brainwashing(scientifically false) though Carolyn Jessop's own daughter was taken away from the compound at age 13 yet returned two days after she turned 18. 5 years is more than enough time to recover from supposed brainwashing.
I am not FLDS and personally detest their ways, but I looked at the facts. Carolyn Jessop states they think as one yet also states that when given a revelation by Warren, individuals act as they see fit.
Look at all the facts and do not just jump into emotional decisions based on disenfranchised people with a purpose.
Are young girls marrying? According to "Warren Jeffs Teen Flees FLDS raw footage" on youtube, this girl admits girls ARE years older then before.
You scream child rape, yet CPS has not found ANY case of rape. They only concern was underage marriage and the Bishop's records already discounted that. This is a fishing expedition only.
You think removing FLDS children removes some pretended brainwashing(scientifically false) though Carolyn Jessop's own daughter was taken away from the compound at age 13 yet returned two days after she turned 18. 5 years is more than enough time to recover from supposed brainwashing.
I am not FLDS and personally detest their ways, but I looked at the facts. Carolyn Jessop states they think as one yet also states that when given a revelation by Warren, individuals act as they see fit.
Look at all the facts and do not just jump into emotional decisions based on disenfranchised people with a purpose.
Are young girls marrying? According to "Warren Jeffs Teen Flees FLDS raw footage" on youtube, this girl admits girls ARE years older then before.
Ekim | 10:39 a.m. May 7, 2008
I am constantly amazed at the apologists for the flds child abusers.
Go Texas, and may the officials in Utah and Arizona step up to the plate and take care of the mess they've allowed to go on for far too long.
Go Texas, and may the officials in Utah and Arizona step up to the plate and take care of the mess they've allowed to go on for far too long.
Susan | 10:42 a.m. May 7, 2008
----"What's amazing is that you and much of Texas did not condemn the
practice (actually the law) in Texas of allowing 14 year old girls to marry
older men UNTIL the FLDS came to town. Go figure."
The answer lies in your own statement.
Before the FLDS came to Texas, Texas "ALLOWED" 14- year-old girls to marry older men of their choice.
The FLDS "FORCED" 14-year-old girls to marry older men that they had no part in choosing.----
The heck you say. Changing the age from 14 to 16 does not remove the alleged "force" issue.
The answer lies in your own statement.
Before the FLDS came to Texas, Texas "ALLOWED" 14- year-old girls to marry older men of their choice.
The FLDS "FORCED" 14-year-old girls to marry older men that they had no part in choosing.----
The heck you say. Changing the age from 14 to 16 does not remove the alleged "force" issue.
COOPERATION | 10:43 a.m. May 7, 2008
For those that believe there was no cooperation from parents, consider this:
One young mother gave both her birth certificate and her drivers license (both
Utah issued) to authorities that denied them as legitimate. Based on that, they
refused to return her children. Truth obviously didn't work and you wonder
why they change their stories? The FLDS are now asking the Utah governor to
confirm these as valid documents. Have you ever traveled outside of your state
and gotten a ticket? Imagine having your child taken away since your documents
were declared not valid simply because you were from out of town.
For those that continue ranting about young girls marrying older men, that is not the complete picture. If you bothered to look at the Bishop's paperwork you would see there were girls also married within what even you would define as age appropriate. But that just isn't as salacious so you ignore it. Well, you actually ignore many facts including an illegal warrant. I am actually surprised there isn't more of an uproar. Americans are like frogs in a pot of water on the stove, failing to jump out as the water heats up slowly.
For those that continue ranting about young girls marrying older men, that is not the complete picture. If you bothered to look at the Bishop's paperwork you would see there were girls also married within what even you would define as age appropriate. But that just isn't as salacious so you ignore it. Well, you actually ignore many facts including an illegal warrant. I am actually surprised there isn't more of an uproar. Americans are like frogs in a pot of water on the stove, failing to jump out as the water heats up slowly.
WashCoObserver | 10:44 a.m. May 7, 2008
Many of these posts seem to be from the "believers". In addition to
the horrific acts of child molestations, they adhere to a doctrine called
"Bleeding the Beast". Maybe one of these believers would step up and
defend that practice.
Free Victims of FLDS | 10:47 a.m. May 7, 2008
XGI - You obviously have been told things that are simply not true. FYI XGI -
LEGAL MARRIAGE is between 2 PEOPLE, NOT 10 or 20 or however many Warren Jeffs
told you. The facts: the FLDS is breaking the law by enforcing a "spritual
marriage" of a minor and old man ( otherwise known as sexual abuse or
rape), enforcing sexual activity between 1st cousins, sexual abuse, sexual
slavery,physical abuse of children and holding women captive. Thank heavens
that Texas FINALLY stepped in to free the children. How can women have a choice
when they cannot read or watch TV to know that they God won't punish them
if they get educated, work a job, wear make up, marry a man of their choosing
and bear as many or few children as they like? The women of FLDS don't
know they have options - they are treated like dogs and given commands. There
is no more or less to it than that. The men of FLDS are controlling and abuse
their power along with their women and children. This is not ok & this will
be stopped. Wait and see - justice will prevail.
Re: wrz | 10:49 a.m. May 7, 2008
"It prohibits governments from infringing upon religious rights."
The US Constitution does not give religious groups the right to violate the law simply because they call their unlawful practices religious beliefs.
This is apparently the main problem the FLDS, and you, are having with this whole fiasco. The FLDS have been taught by an incompetent leader that what they are doing is right and, therefore, they don't think they are doing anything wrong, even though it is against the law
You can argue all you want that their child-abusing practices are "religious beliefs," but they're still against the law.
The US Constitution does not give religious groups the right to violate the law simply because they call their unlawful practices religious beliefs.
This is apparently the main problem the FLDS, and you, are having with this whole fiasco. The FLDS have been taught by an incompetent leader that what they are doing is right and, therefore, they don't think they are doing anything wrong, even though it is against the law
You can argue all you want that their child-abusing practices are "religious beliefs," but they're still against the law.
Free Victims of FLDS | 10:55 a.m. May 7, 2008
I agree with Susan - the FLDS FORCES children to marry old men. These children
are being forced into sexual slavery & have even been "traded" to
other men when the prophet deemed it necessary. These child "brides"
and other women have no rights inthe FLDS prision - they either comply or are
forced into hiding until they come to their senses (via manipulation, force,
ect.). The FLDS brings shame to America.
Re: David | 10:59 a.m. May 7, 2008
"This is a fishing expedition only."
If this is a fishing expedition (your opinion), and the FLDS have nothing to hide, then you have nothing to worry about.
If, however, the allegations of child abuse are proven true, I hope that every child of every parent involved in the abuse is kept protected from their parents until the parents can prove that they no longer pose a threat to abusing their children.
If this is a fishing expedition (your opinion), and the FLDS have nothing to hide, then you have nothing to worry about.
If, however, the allegations of child abuse are proven true, I hope that every child of every parent involved in the abuse is kept protected from their parents until the parents can prove that they no longer pose a threat to abusing their children.
Free Victims of FLDS | 11:07 a.m. May 7, 2008
By the way TO constitutional, how can any women who escape the FLDS survive?
They aren't educated, have no job history other then short order cook for
their family of 100 and have no concept of what the outside world really looks
like. While Warren Jeffs was on the lam in a RED car, wearing SHORTS, with a
BEARD - eveyone else is put on hold and has no idea what their fate would be.
What can they do? They have been brainwashed since infancy that the FLDS way of
life is normal and any deviation will result in terrible consequences. FLDS
RULES THROUGH FEAR, INTIMIDATION AND FORCE. Of course people return because you
have to actually have education & skills to survive on the outside. You
have to actually talk to gentiles without your husband being your mouthpiece.
They need to adhere to norms set by the general society - not Oppressor Jeffs.
Get a clue, these women don't have a shot!
Justin | 11:11 a.m. May 7, 2008
"Those of you who criticize the State of Texas and the CPS are showing your
true lack of integrity. It is obvious you don't know and/or understand what
the true facts are or you wouldn't be making such fault-finding
accusations."
I would like to admit my lack of "integrity", knowledge, and/or understanding. I do criticize the State of texas and the CPS as do the majority of the posters on this site. If Anonymous is right, we must all lack integrity, knowledge, and understanding. It must be nice to always be right and to accuse those who disagree with you of having no integrity, knowledge or understanding.
I would like to admit my lack of "integrity", knowledge, and/or understanding. I do criticize the State of texas and the CPS as do the majority of the posters on this site. If Anonymous is right, we must all lack integrity, knowledge, and understanding. It must be nice to always be right and to accuse those who disagree with you of having no integrity, knowledge or understanding.
Justice | 11:13 a.m. May 7, 2008
Well, if all said and done and Americans like ourself give up the Constitution
and a Bill of Rights, just to get our own Brainwashed way (brainwashed because
99.9% of us have yet to see a FLDS member and find out what they really are, we
are Brainwashed from media -- Fact) if we loose those Precious Documents and
rights over something like this, WE DONT DESERVE THEM.
anon | 11:18 a.m. May 7, 2008
I agree with anonymous 8:08 a.m. completely. Perhaps the Texas response was a
little draconian, but the FLDS brought it on themselves. If even one 13 or
14-year-old girl had been forced or coerced to marry a 40 or 50-year-old man and
the group knew about it, it is child abuse, heinous child abuse, of which they
are ALL guilty. Yes, it is tragic that children are ripped away from their
mothers, but if they had not been so flagrantly thumbing their noses at the law
for so long, it would never have happened. Put the blame where it belongs.
genocide | 11:23 a.m. May 7, 2008
Boy the truth hurts. You show me how this raid fails the definition of genocide
in ANY WAY as formally adopted by the United Nations.
I know the FLDS people pretty well as a St George physician. I have treated their families and children for many years. They are not the evil people that you are brainwashed to believe. You don't like to see their human side because its easier for you to condemn them as non-human. The Germans used the SAME tactic.
I know the FLDS people pretty well as a St George physician. I have treated their families and children for many years. They are not the evil people that you are brainwashed to believe. You don't like to see their human side because its easier for you to condemn them as non-human. The Germans used the SAME tactic.
No no no | 11:25 a.m. May 7, 2008
We are not talking about how the parents feel, the parents are the ones
following the insane polygamy religion, the parents are the ones raising their
children in such an outrageous enviornment the parents are the ones who think
that its okay to abuse their children,the phycos think that its godly. What it
really is is sick.These children have been moved from FLDS family to FLDS family
so dont cry that the goverment is truamitizing them, the FLDS are covering that
just fine, you know the rape,the starvation,the abuse,the witnessing. Im sure
that the children might feel astranged at first while in protective care but
that will quickly subside for most,they are being given a chance to be free and
to know love and to know worth and security, all the things that the FLDS doesnt
have. Give these children a future and save them, every single one. God bless
Texas God bless whoever made that abuse phone call, God bless those children and
God belss Carolyn Jessop and those who are fighting to shutdown that disgusting
FLDS cult.
Anonymous | 11:25 a.m. May 7, 2008
Cooperating might be good but don't be fooled thinking this will help them
get their children back sooner. The CPS agencies have a history of using the
sympathies that come with the claim of "child protection" to allow
them to abuse the power they have been given. Who will question such good
intentions (even if the result is more damage and abuse)?
Nobody steps forward to make sure they are not overstepping their bounds, respecting families and trying to keep them intact as the least damaging option whenever possible. Texas certainly didn't consider this and they are punishing the victims. Yes, the mothers are victims too and victims can't always protect other victims.
Protection may be needed but taking the children from their mothers is not the answer here unless evidence shows that the mothers themselves are abusers. Failure to protect their child when they themselves were imprisoned by the abusive men should not be a crime, but it should prompt compassionate help.
As for us not being there and seeing it all - it's true, and you have also not seen the abuses that go on in child protective services. Utah has disgraceful practices and they "protect their own."
Nobody steps forward to make sure they are not overstepping their bounds, respecting families and trying to keep them intact as the least damaging option whenever possible. Texas certainly didn't consider this and they are punishing the victims. Yes, the mothers are victims too and victims can't always protect other victims.
Protection may be needed but taking the children from their mothers is not the answer here unless evidence shows that the mothers themselves are abusers. Failure to protect their child when they themselves were imprisoned by the abusive men should not be a crime, but it should prompt compassionate help.
As for us not being there and seeing it all - it's true, and you have also not seen the abuses that go on in child protective services. Utah has disgraceful practices and they "protect their own."
Dennis | 11:27 a.m. May 7, 2008
Susan
The FLDS "FORCED" 14-year-old girls to marry older men that they had no part in choosing.
State of Texas hasn't shown evidence that this happened even one time. If forcing people to marry is the basis for removing the kids, Texas is in DEEP TROUBLE.
The FLDS "FORCED" 14-year-old girls to marry older men that they had no part in choosing.
State of Texas hasn't shown evidence that this happened even one time. If forcing people to marry is the basis for removing the kids, Texas is in DEEP TROUBLE.
Re: Susan | 11:28 a.m. May 7, 2008
"Changing the age from 14 to 16 does not remove the alleged
"force" issue."
I agree. But it helps to narrow the loophole the FLDS were using to force young girls into arranged marriages. Old girls, at least, are somewhat better prepared to resist an unwanted marriage, although, with the indoctrination the FLDS girls receive, even older aren't much better prepared.
It's shameful that the FLDS mothers have been such willing conspirators in brainwashing their children into such a subservient belief. The children in the FLDS have no freedom of choice.
I agree. But it helps to narrow the loophole the FLDS were using to force young girls into arranged marriages. Old girls, at least, are somewhat better prepared to resist an unwanted marriage, although, with the indoctrination the FLDS girls receive, even older aren't much better prepared.
It's shameful that the FLDS mothers have been such willing conspirators in brainwashing their children into such a subservient belief. The children in the FLDS have no freedom of choice.
Destiny | 11:36 a.m. May 7, 2008
When religion causes harm to a child. The child comes first. An old man
haveing sex with and getting pregnant a 14 year old girl -- Is abuse. To those
who don't agree, I'm glad our state laws do agree. In the past girls
were married at 14. It was out of necesssity, not because it was right. Back
then there was sooo much sexual abuse that it ruined alot of lives. Now a days,
we are finally being educated on sexual abuse and can stop it.
TheMadNuker | 11:36 a.m. May 7, 2008
1:The Supreme Court needs to reign in the excessive CPS agencies.
2:A ban on all Professors from becoming judges needs
to be enacted.
The Professor Cassell's today are the same that justified the loading up of the undesirables over sixty years ago. The "Trains have left the station",
had additional meaning then.Is the analogy the same?
Yes,the women and children being loaded up on the buses, look just like the pictures so long ago.
No the camps have not been built, and the showers here, still have water in them. However, all the steps taken in despotic governments are always by degrees, and one step at a time. And despots always have their cheerleaders. My question to many of the
posters is this, are you so ready to condemn people that you do not even know? Should not they be given
the same consideration as you would want for yourselves?God help this nation and the people,when
the people cannot recieve justice.Oh, by the way,
there were cheerleaders for Christs death also.
2:A ban on all Professors from becoming judges needs
to be enacted.
The Professor Cassell's today are the same that justified the loading up of the undesirables over sixty years ago. The "Trains have left the station",
had additional meaning then.Is the analogy the same?
Yes,the women and children being loaded up on the buses, look just like the pictures so long ago.
No the camps have not been built, and the showers here, still have water in them. However, all the steps taken in despotic governments are always by degrees, and one step at a time. And despots always have their cheerleaders. My question to many of the
posters is this, are you so ready to condemn people that you do not even know? Should not they be given
the same consideration as you would want for yourselves?God help this nation and the people,when
the people cannot recieve justice.Oh, by the way,
there were cheerleaders for Christs death also.
Dennis | 11:36 a.m. May 7, 2008
anon
"If even one 13 or 14-year-old girl had been forced or coerced to marry a 40 or 50-year-old man and the group knew about it, it is child abuse"
1. CPS has not reported even one case of coerced marriage.
2. Age difference means nothing under the law. Only considerations are marriagable age and consent.
3. I assume you are ignorantly referring the the Jeffs case., in whidh a 14-year-old girl married a 19-year-old man. About the same ages as Romeo and Juliet.
Go find some one else to hate. These people have the US Constitution on their side.
"If even one 13 or 14-year-old girl had been forced or coerced to marry a 40 or 50-year-old man and the group knew about it, it is child abuse"
1. CPS has not reported even one case of coerced marriage.
2. Age difference means nothing under the law. Only considerations are marriagable age and consent.
3. I assume you are ignorantly referring the the Jeffs case., in whidh a 14-year-old girl married a 19-year-old man. About the same ages as Romeo and Juliet.
Go find some one else to hate. These people have the US Constitution on their side.
Re: genocide | 11:39 a.m. May 7, 2008
"...show me how this raid fails the definition of genocide in ANY WAY as
formally adopted by the United Nations."
It's only a temporary situation and doesn't involve every FLDS member, only one small group.
I know you won't answer this question truthfully, but have you ever treated a young 13-17-year-old FLDS mother or mother-to-be (that is, pregnant girl)?
Therein lies your truth about the child abuse that is occurring within the FLDS community.
It's only a temporary situation and doesn't involve every FLDS member, only one small group.
I know you won't answer this question truthfully, but have you ever treated a young 13-17-year-old FLDS mother or mother-to-be (that is, pregnant girl)?
Therein lies your truth about the child abuse that is occurring within the FLDS community.
Stewart | 11:42 a.m. May 7, 2008
There still seems to be quite a few posts from those that believe child sexual
abuse is OK, if it is for religious purposes. I suppose that we could assume
that it would be OK for these cult parents to give their children the Kool-Aid
(as in Jim Jones' Peoples Temple) if their "priesthood" leaders
ordered it?
Fred | 11:48 a.m. May 7, 2008
Please explain how a young, poorly educated girl being held in the FLDS compound
with no contact to the outside world and being groomed to be forced into an
arranged marriage with a man chosen for her as soon as she reaches puberty has
those same rights that are supposed to be guaranteed for every U.S. citizen.
In the first place those children are not poorly educated. They are above the average Texas kid. Secondly, they had computers and the internet. Thirdly, they are not "held in a compound." That's their home.
And can you cite a law that forbids arranged marriages?
And fifthly, prior to 2005 Texas law allowed 14 year olds to marry. Why the righteous indignation all of a sudden?
In the first place those children are not poorly educated. They are above the average Texas kid. Secondly, they had computers and the internet. Thirdly, they are not "held in a compound." That's their home.
And can you cite a law that forbids arranged marriages?
And fifthly, prior to 2005 Texas law allowed 14 year olds to marry. Why the righteous indignation all of a sudden?
Re: David | 11:49 a.m. May 7, 2008
"There is no evidence of child abuse or the person committing the child
abuse would already have a warrant."
Obviously, you don't have a clue about how the judicial system actually works.
Evidence is still being gathered and examined, DNA evidence for one.
Charges and a warrant for arrest won't be coming until enough evidence is available to bring charges. Just because no one has been sent to prison, yet, doesn't prove that there wasn't abuse.
Obviously, you don't have a clue about how the judicial system actually works.
Evidence is still being gathered and examined, DNA evidence for one.
Charges and a warrant for arrest won't be coming until enough evidence is available to bring charges. Just because no one has been sent to prison, yet, doesn't prove that there wasn't abuse.
lets do it | 11:50 a.m. May 7, 2008
Well we don't yet know that they are Guilty, and were not sure if they
Innocent, lets Crucify them quick before anyone sees. I would say that Texas is
making a big mistake, but there not, there just doing what we the people are
asking them to do, its we the people that are making the mistake. Is it really
that hard to follow Due Process? Build a Case them Make arrests? Do they only do
it this way because they already know of their innocents? think about it! out
of 400+ people surely they can find one abuse victim willing to testify! 4 weeks
later any confession will be questionable as to who's confession it really
is, they needed the confessing Victim on day 2 to rap this up, now regardless of
what they find they still loose. Sad day for Americans
b | 12:00 p.m. May 7, 2008
I was raised in a cult, not flds. I have 4 siblinges and 3 of the 5 of my
parents children were removed do to abuse. It was many years ago and laws were
different you had to have phisical signs of abuse to be removed. The story is
long and complicatedbut what I want to make sure everyone knows is Iam a better
person because I was removed. I saw "normal" or family, love,and
learened there is more to disapline then just pure fear and terror. It was hard
I had very little contact with any of my siblings as a child. Today I funtion
that say's more then anyone who has not been there can understand. 2 of
the siblings stayed with my parents. Their story is not as pretty. Neither are
involved with the cult, but the damage is done. They suffer frommental health
issues largely related to their experiances. For worse then that the one who is
a parent does not know how to show love to his children. The only chance these
kids have is to be removed. rock on Texas
Matthew | 12:00 p.m. May 7, 2008
Show me evidence, not rumor and innuendo.
This whole thing started from a false claim. Many of you posters continue to justify it on unsubstantiated claims, many of which are demonstrably false.
Yes it is genocide. If you support it, deal with it. It is what it is. Apparently some of you think that genocide is sometimes justified. Fair enough, but be honest about what you are justifying.
In the meantime, SHOW ME EVIDENCE of something illegal besides polygamy. Otherwise you are just a bunch of religious bigots. I�m actually inclined to think that there is some evidence. Neither my inclinations, nor your bigotry, are justification for all that has been done.
Put up or shut up! Show everyone the evidence.
This whole thing started from a false claim. Many of you posters continue to justify it on unsubstantiated claims, many of which are demonstrably false.
Yes it is genocide. If you support it, deal with it. It is what it is. Apparently some of you think that genocide is sometimes justified. Fair enough, but be honest about what you are justifying.
In the meantime, SHOW ME EVIDENCE of something illegal besides polygamy. Otherwise you are just a bunch of religious bigots. I�m actually inclined to think that there is some evidence. Neither my inclinations, nor your bigotry, are justification for all that has been done.
Put up or shut up! Show everyone the evidence.
Re: Dennis | 12:03 p.m. May 7, 2008
"2. Age difference means nothing under the law. Only considerations are
marriagable age and consent."
In most states it's considered statutory rape if the girl is under the age of consent and/or the parties are more than 2 years apart in age.
"3. I assume you are ignorantly referring the the Jeffs case., in whidh [sic] a 14-year-old girl married a 19-year-old man. About the same ages as Romeo and Juliet."
Fortunately, we don't abide by the same laws that existed for Romeo and Juliet. By the way, they were never married.
Jeffs was convicted and sent to prison for breaking our current laws. He's now in an Arizona jail facing similar charges. The leader of the FLDS charged and convicted of the very types of behavior for which the FLDS people in Texas are now being investigated.
In most states it's considered statutory rape if the girl is under the age of consent and/or the parties are more than 2 years apart in age.
"3. I assume you are ignorantly referring the the Jeffs case., in whidh [sic] a 14-year-old girl married a 19-year-old man. About the same ages as Romeo and Juliet."
Fortunately, we don't abide by the same laws that existed for Romeo and Juliet. By the way, they were never married.
Jeffs was convicted and sent to prison for breaking our current laws. He's now in an Arizona jail facing similar charges. The leader of the FLDS charged and convicted of the very types of behavior for which the FLDS people in Texas are now being investigated.
Anonymous | 12:05 p.m. May 7, 2008
Several posts were made lamenting the "fate" of any FLDS adolescent
who wanted to "leave" and enter "normal" society (which
hasn't much to brag about - if you ask me) due to the "secluded"
nature of their religion.
73% of those "aging out" of the foster care system end up in jail, addicted to drugs or homeless.
There have been numerous studies of great import done on this.
Findings show that those "aging out" of the foster care system: have NO RESOURCES, little education, little or no job skills of any kind, lack of family connections causes ongoing lifelong trauma (that doesn't respond to known therapy), experience great difficulty "entering mainstream society" due to lack of social skills and that they suffer severe emotional problems (usually permanent) directly resulting FROM their experiences in the foster care system.
Removal from one's family and placement into the foster care system - is NOT - the "rescue from grim old Kansas" and being air-dropped into a "happy, happy Land of Oz" so many folks seem to perceive it to be.
That's why - until federal funding made it into a lucrative "industry" - it was rarely done.
73% of those "aging out" of the foster care system end up in jail, addicted to drugs or homeless.
There have been numerous studies of great import done on this.
Findings show that those "aging out" of the foster care system: have NO RESOURCES, little education, little or no job skills of any kind, lack of family connections causes ongoing lifelong trauma (that doesn't respond to known therapy), experience great difficulty "entering mainstream society" due to lack of social skills and that they suffer severe emotional problems (usually permanent) directly resulting FROM their experiences in the foster care system.
Removal from one's family and placement into the foster care system - is NOT - the "rescue from grim old Kansas" and being air-dropped into a "happy, happy Land of Oz" so many folks seem to perceive it to be.
That's why - until federal funding made it into a lucrative "industry" - it was rarely done.
i think | 12:17 p.m. May 7, 2008
maybe we have been brainwashed by some bitter enemies by thinking they are
brainwashed. Intesting we hear so much from people "who Know.." aka
Flora, Carolyn, etc.. that have an axe to grind. Truth will stand on its own.
Re: Fred | 12:19 p.m. May 7, 2008
"In the first place those children are not poorly educated. They are above
the average Texas kid. Secondly, they had computers and the internet. Thirdly,
they are not "held in a compound." That's their home."
Show me evidence that these children received a proper education, that they used computers and accessed the internet, that they were free to come and go from the FLDS compound with the same freedom that other children have to come and go from their homes.
If we were to test the FLDS children, how well would they do in reading, writing, and math compared to other children. If we sat them in front of a computer would they know how to use it and find information on the internet. If we conducted a survey of citizens in the communities near the ranch would they say that they 1. Frequently, 2. Occassionally, or 3. Seldom saw FLDS children wandering freely in their communities.
I would hope that FLDS children enjoy the same freedom of choice as other children, unfortunately, I've seen NO EVIDENCE of that.
Show me evidence that these children received a proper education, that they used computers and accessed the internet, that they were free to come and go from the FLDS compound with the same freedom that other children have to come and go from their homes.
If we were to test the FLDS children, how well would they do in reading, writing, and math compared to other children. If we sat them in front of a computer would they know how to use it and find information on the internet. If we conducted a survey of citizens in the communities near the ranch would they say that they 1. Frequently, 2. Occassionally, or 3. Seldom saw FLDS children wandering freely in their communities.
I would hope that FLDS children enjoy the same freedom of choice as other children, unfortunately, I've seen NO EVIDENCE of that.
Re: Fred | 12:28 p.m. May 7, 2008
"And can you cite a law that forbids arranged marriages?
And fifthly, prior to 2005 Texas law allowed 14 year olds to marry. Why the righteous indignation all of a sudden?"
Fred has finally revealed the TRUE thinking within the FLDS community.
THERE IS NOTHING WRONG with arranged marriages and the age of the girl, no matter how young, is not important.
Now we understand why the FLDS don't feel they have done anything wrong and why they feel they are being persecuted for their religious beliefs.
And fifthly, prior to 2005 Texas law allowed 14 year olds to marry. Why the righteous indignation all of a sudden?"
Fred has finally revealed the TRUE thinking within the FLDS community.
THERE IS NOTHING WRONG with arranged marriages and the age of the girl, no matter how young, is not important.
Now we understand why the FLDS don't feel they have done anything wrong and why they feel they are being persecuted for their religious beliefs.
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At last we agree on this one thing.
-------------------------------------
Where in the US Constitution to do find the "right" of parents to abuse their children?
Children of any age, on the other hand, have a right to be protected from being abused.
If that means taking an infant, or a toddler, or a teenager from their parents, yes, the state not only has the right, but the responsibility, to protect the children.
As has been stated over and over and over and over again, it has NOTHING to do with the beliefs, legal or not, of the FLDS.
It has EVERYTHING to do with the illegal practices of child abuse by the FLDS.