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Legal experts say what FLDS can do now is cooperate
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Judges rule they are right. | 12:52 a.m. May 7, 2008
Cassell is quoted as saying "The government doesn't always have to be
right with the search warrant, it just has to be reasonable," while Greg
Skordas says that "as long as law enforcement is acting on "good
faith" that the information they are acting on is correct, the warrant is
valid."
And who decides that law enforcement was acting in good faith when acting on a warrant? It's judges who have a vested interest in issuance of warrants.
Cassell also said "They have to show probable cause to be pulling up fish, but if they're looking for a bass and they find a salmon, they don't have to throw the salmon back." Isn't it great that men like Cassell become judges and make such idiotic rulings?
His argument is that the police can get a warrant based on false information and so long as their a judge like Cassell rules that they acted in good faith it is okay since he issued it as a fishing expedition. This judge in Texas knew the call was bogus and issued the warrant anyways knowing they could claim they were acting in good faith. I want this power to rule I'm right too.
And who decides that law enforcement was acting in good faith when acting on a warrant? It's judges who have a vested interest in issuance of warrants.
Cassell also said "They have to show probable cause to be pulling up fish, but if they're looking for a bass and they find a salmon, they don't have to throw the salmon back." Isn't it great that men like Cassell become judges and make such idiotic rulings?
His argument is that the police can get a warrant based on false information and so long as their a judge like Cassell rules that they acted in good faith it is okay since he issued it as a fishing expedition. This judge in Texas knew the call was bogus and issued the warrant anyways knowing they could claim they were acting in good faith. I want this power to rule I'm right too.
gal50 | 12:52 a.m. May 7, 2008
This legal expert is exactly right assuming that the appeals court agrees with
the district court.
I agree with the actions taken by the State of Texas, however, it would be wonderful for the FLDS children if the adults could make the changes required by CPS sooner than later in order to regain custody as quickly as possible.
Yesterday, I wrote the FLDS parents using the E-mail on their website and I urged them to do exactly what this legal expert recommends which is to cooperate.
I also suggested that the FLDS parents discuss with their Texas attorneys the changes CPS will likely require in order to regain their children and to start making these changes.
Someone needs to send this article to the FLDS parents. I am hopeful that they will be able to cooperate with CPS. In the initial stages of the investigation they were presented with some lessons on what happens when they don't cooperate. I'm not sure they understood those lessons. By now, they should all be well-represented and hopefully their attorneys are getting through to them.
I agree with the actions taken by the State of Texas, however, it would be wonderful for the FLDS children if the adults could make the changes required by CPS sooner than later in order to regain custody as quickly as possible.
Yesterday, I wrote the FLDS parents using the E-mail on their website and I urged them to do exactly what this legal expert recommends which is to cooperate.
I also suggested that the FLDS parents discuss with their Texas attorneys the changes CPS will likely require in order to regain their children and to start making these changes.
Someone needs to send this article to the FLDS parents. I am hopeful that they will be able to cooperate with CPS. In the initial stages of the investigation they were presented with some lessons on what happens when they don't cooperate. I'm not sure they understood those lessons. By now, they should all be well-represented and hopefully their attorneys are getting through to them.
Comments continue below
Renee | 1:18 a.m. May 7, 2008
I understand completely that CPS needs to protect children, but their powers to
skirt or ignore the law...or in most cases have the law rewritten to give them
powers to remove children on their "guesses" without having
"proof" before hand should not allowed. In almost all cases of
"crimes", it is innocent until proven guilty. In CPS cases it is
guilty until YOU can prove your innocence... and CPS decides what is acceptable
evidence or not.
And before everyone jumps to the conclusion I have had run-ins with CPS. I have not, but I have worked with CASA and have seen the misuse of their "powers".
And before everyone jumps to the conclusion I have had run-ins with CPS. I have not, but I have worked with CASA and have seen the misuse of their "powers".
Shame on you all | 1:26 a.m. May 7, 2008
When Your child is ripped from you because someone wants to cause you trouble
and makes a bogus report to CPS. YOU should cooperate fully with them? I would
like to see YOU submit to this without resorting to violence! God Bless those
parents for their example of Christ like forgivness.
Lay - Off ! | 1:27 a.m. May 7, 2008
Interesting that the term "train left the station" was used. Reminds
me of another oppressive government that used trains in their persecution of a
religious group.
SJ Bobkins | 1:31 a.m. May 7, 2008
Can the FLDS change to the point that they will no longer exist? I have the
feeling that we're going to go through this process exhaustingly slow with
every step a huge battle. A step towards ending child brides will likely have
the effect of losing many of the young once they reach the age when they begin
to make their own choices. If you listen to all the recordings from the
Jeff's trial, you get the impression that the heavy hand of fear may be
impressive to a 12 year old, but no so to a child who is starting the think for
herself. Example: "Stay sweet to be able to live in the highest kingdom of
heaven, look upon the prophet as the ultimate authority. If you disagree, do
what the prophet tells you, or you will be swept off the earth along with every
person, who isn't part of the priesthood" That's heavy stuff.
When you have restrictions relating to music, books, sports, ideas, age may make
a difference. When the group is forced to care for their boys and end taking
women and children from the men, will that mean the end?
The Daily Smear | 1:41 a.m. May 7, 2008
Yay our daily mud fling on the FLDS go team
crazy | 1:44 a.m. May 7, 2008
what if they were telling the truth all along, and the state of texas and the
public, you and me just dont want it, we want a crazy story thats funner to
read?
Contrarian | 2:46 a.m. May 7, 2008
Crazy is right. Common sense explanations don't sell and as long as people
can believe that FLDS people are not like them, they can cheer the removal of
thirteen month-old, nursing babies without a twinge of conscience for the pain
inflicted on those babies and their mothers.
If we admit that FLDS people are just like us - that they love their children, then common sense explanations work well.
When considering a question like disparity in numbers between teenage girls and teenage boys among the FLDS, people go for the sensational rather than the ordinary. They forget that teenagers can be rebellious; that they can reject their church, family standards, family discipline, and kick out of the traces.
But people set aside their own experiences and their own common sense when interpreting the FLDS, so what may be ordinary teen rebellion and the common response to beguilements of mainstream life is given the tabloid treatment. Everyone then becomes a voyeur on a fantasy world of teenage sex slaves in which the old bucks cast out the young males to get rid of the competition. Fantasy is an unworthy preoccupation. Common sense and empathy are better.
If we admit that FLDS people are just like us - that they love their children, then common sense explanations work well.
When considering a question like disparity in numbers between teenage girls and teenage boys among the FLDS, people go for the sensational rather than the ordinary. They forget that teenagers can be rebellious; that they can reject their church, family standards, family discipline, and kick out of the traces.
But people set aside their own experiences and their own common sense when interpreting the FLDS, so what may be ordinary teen rebellion and the common response to beguilements of mainstream life is given the tabloid treatment. Everyone then becomes a voyeur on a fantasy world of teenage sex slaves in which the old bucks cast out the young males to get rid of the competition. Fantasy is an unworthy preoccupation. Common sense and empathy are better.
chemist | 4:14 a.m. May 7, 2008
This advice is so duh. There was a story from Utah a few months ago about a
speeding motorist who was tased by a UHP. The video of the incident was posted
on the web. The motorist was castigated by DesNews posters because he did not
cooperate with the law enforcement officer. Believe me, when I am stopped by a
police officer I cooperate fully. I do not lie or try to deceive him or her.
Actually being honest and truthful is what I have tried to incoporate into my
character. It is also part of my religion. Really have to wonder about a
religion that teaches the opposite of that.
Anonymous | 5:44 a.m. May 7, 2008
At the onset of the raid, it seemed questionable whether or not Texas officials
were acting on solid constitutional grounds.
With the discoveries of teenage marriages, teenage pregnancy, etc. among defenseless children, Texas officials should be praised.
As an LDS member, and a believer in priesthood keys and authority, we can see that the FLDS leadership has plunged its members into spiritual chaos.
FLDS changes to doctrine in the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, etc has led to its own demise on all levels - spiritual and temporal.
FLDS leadership, including the women, would do well to wake up from the sleep of immorality and start lives centered on Jesus Christ rather than on polygamy.
With the discoveries of teenage marriages, teenage pregnancy, etc. among defenseless children, Texas officials should be praised.
As an LDS member, and a believer in priesthood keys and authority, we can see that the FLDS leadership has plunged its members into spiritual chaos.
FLDS changes to doctrine in the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, etc has led to its own demise on all levels - spiritual and temporal.
FLDS leadership, including the women, would do well to wake up from the sleep of immorality and start lives centered on Jesus Christ rather than on polygamy.
Dakotah | 6:12 a.m. May 7, 2008
Just as with Hitler... cooperate. Trust the State. We know what is best for you.
Do what we say or you will NEVER SEE YOUR KIDS AGAIN.
What a farce. "Trust" the outfit that kidnaps over 400 kids? Better to get in a war with them and die while killing this enemy than to collaborate with the SS.
What a farce. "Trust" the outfit that kidnaps over 400 kids? Better to get in a war with them and die while killing this enemy than to collaborate with the SS.
Anonymous | 6:21 a.m. May 7, 2008
Yes now I would cooperate fully till I got my kids back; Then pooff I would be
gone.
crazy indeed | 6:44 a.m. May 7, 2008
I want to see some heads roll!
wrz | 6:44 a.m. May 7, 2008
>>Finally, a article that might help all those who have been screaming for
the head of Texas CPS to understand that every step taken was legal, and legally
required of CPS.<<
Few are saying that what the Texas CPS is doing is not legal ACCORDING TO TEXAS LAW. But there is a higher law, the US Constitution.
The Bush administration has been castigated by the US Senate for possible violation of the Constitutional right to privacy with wire tapping policies. It certainly seems a mother and her infant child, contently living in a desert ranch, should have the some right to privacy. Yet Texas CPS can swoop in, kidnap a child, ripping it from its mother's arms, all under the guise of safety of the child. Well, one would hope that those folks would have some semblance of privacy rights.
Texas says they are taking the children because the FLDS's religious teachings are harmful to children. The US Constitution says that "Congress (and that includes any subdivision of the federal or state governments) shall MAKE NO LAW respecting the free exercise of religion. Yet, here we have a clear case of violating that sacred provision.
A freekin' travesty!
Few are saying that what the Texas CPS is doing is not legal ACCORDING TO TEXAS LAW. But there is a higher law, the US Constitution.
The Bush administration has been castigated by the US Senate for possible violation of the Constitutional right to privacy with wire tapping policies. It certainly seems a mother and her infant child, contently living in a desert ranch, should have the some right to privacy. Yet Texas CPS can swoop in, kidnap a child, ripping it from its mother's arms, all under the guise of safety of the child. Well, one would hope that those folks would have some semblance of privacy rights.
Texas says they are taking the children because the FLDS's religious teachings are harmful to children. The US Constitution says that "Congress (and that includes any subdivision of the federal or state governments) shall MAKE NO LAW respecting the free exercise of religion. Yet, here we have a clear case of violating that sacred provision.
A freekin' travesty!
Steven Jarvis | 6:47 a.m. May 7, 2008
IT isn't good faith when they know the telephone number originated was not
within the compound (and caller claimed she was). That reduces the likelihood
of criminal charges because the warrant for which all the information taken
would not have been valid. If the State acted to create the charge of abuse
falsely by directing the 'last' call to a system that does not specify
where the phone call was originating, against standard policy, and it is further
proven that previous calls from 'Sarah' had occurred they have opened
themselves to several lawsuits and have lost all legal standing for criminal
cases. What it looks like is the government set up the FLDS church fully
knowing the abuse calls origin and complete lack of credibility because they
sought to prosecute this group and lacked evidence without a fact-finding
raid.
I am a teacher, not a lawyer, but even I can see the ground which the raid was begun violates so many basic rights. I am appalled that the State would risk being able to prosecute by acting in such a criminal manner. It is much akin to building public sentiment for the war based on Weapons of Mass Destruction.
I am a teacher, not a lawyer, but even I can see the ground which the raid was begun violates so many basic rights. I am appalled that the State would risk being able to prosecute by acting in such a criminal manner. It is much akin to building public sentiment for the war based on Weapons of Mass Destruction.
Thomas | 6:53 a.m. May 7, 2008
I am shocked that these judges think that CPS can do whatever it wants. As a
result, we have a rogue agency that does whatever it wants. Removing children
from good home is child abuse. What's the point of cooperating since it has
gottem them nowhere?
Thanks DN | 6:57 a.m. May 7, 2008
Thank you DN for giving us an article that explains what I have been saying for
weeks, that the primary concern in this investigation is the welfare of the
children, which is why child welfare agencies in every state have more latitude
to investigate abuse.
Those who keep pushing for the investigation to be stopped before the CPS has determined that it's safe to return the children to their families obviously don't have the welfare of the children as their first priority.
The FLDS wouldn't be in this position if they hadn't already established a history of similar abuse in Arizona and Utah.
Those who keep pushing for the investigation to be stopped before the CPS has determined that it's safe to return the children to their families obviously don't have the welfare of the children as their first priority.
The FLDS wouldn't be in this position if they hadn't already established a history of similar abuse in Arizona and Utah.
Allyson | 7:00 a.m. May 7, 2008
These parents are being told to cooperate and do what they're told, by an
authority that has overstepped its bounds and stolen away their children. Texas
should be ashamed of itself.
CA | 7:00 a.m. May 7, 2008
God Bless Texas for rooting out this group of pedophiles masquerading as a
religion who tried to hide in our midst.
I hope the children stay in custody until all the criminal prosecutions are done- bigamy, rape, child trafficking.
I hear Jeffs is again banging his head on the wall and on suicide watch again in jail. Perhaps he has finally understood the gravity of his evil ways.
I hope the children stay in custody until all the criminal prosecutions are done- bigamy, rape, child trafficking.
I hear Jeffs is again banging his head on the wall and on suicide watch again in jail. Perhaps he has finally understood the gravity of his evil ways.
Been warned | 7:07 a.m. May 7, 2008
I grew up in a town on the mexican US border. When we were growing up my parents
always emphasized the practical difference between Mexican law and US law
whenever we visited Mexico. In the US someone was always assumed to be innocent
until proven guilty, but when someone was arrested in Mexico, even for something
like a car accident, they were considered guilty until proven innocent and could
be kept in jail until family or friends could come up with money to get them
out.
The CPS have similar power to the Mexican government, but are operating here in the US. That power is hard to fight, since written law supports it. The obvious original purpose of that power was and is to protect children.
Its unfortunate that the power was applied in a blind way in this situation. Monogomous couples were punished, little babies have been denied proper nutrition, and many children have been subjected to a foster care system which has been proven to be harmful to a large percentage of participants.
The CPS have similar power to the Mexican government, but are operating here in the US. That power is hard to fight, since written law supports it. The obvious original purpose of that power was and is to protect children.
Its unfortunate that the power was applied in a blind way in this situation. Monogomous couples were punished, little babies have been denied proper nutrition, and many children have been subjected to a foster care system which has been proven to be harmful to a large percentage of participants.
DeLaval Milker | 7:08 a.m. May 7, 2008
If they do cooperate it'll be a first. Close this prisoner of religion camp
for good.
appalled | 7:17 a.m. May 7, 2008
Consider the UN definition of GENOCIDE and think about what it means to cooperate with a government that commits it. Too bad the rest of the resolution didn't fit in the 200 word limit....
Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide
Adopted by Resolution 260 (III) A of the United Nations General Assembly on 9 December 1948.
Article 1
The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish.
Article 2
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Gary | 7:27 a.m. May 7, 2008
Texas could care less if the FLDS decide to now cooperate.
They have done a great job without the cooperation of the FLDS. The FLDS have already buried themselves and it is too little too late to start cooperating now.
They have done a great job without the cooperation of the FLDS. The FLDS have already buried themselves and it is too little too late to start cooperating now.
VegasBaby | 7:28 a.m. May 7, 2008
It's a shame that children always pay the price for their parent's
stupidity.
Re: wrz | 7:39 a.m. May 7, 2008
As usual, you're wrong on every point.
What Texas has done in taking the FLDS children into protective custody, while they're investigating possible child abuse, is done on a smaller scale in EVERY SINGLE state every single day.
Just like the rest of your strawmen arguments, your wire tapping privacy rights comparison is wholly irrelevant to this case.
Go back and read the article carefully. Try to gain a little understanding. Maybe then, you'll be able to engage in a reasoned discussion instead of continually throwing out wild accusations based on nothing but your personal biases.
What Texas has done in taking the FLDS children into protective custody, while they're investigating possible child abuse, is done on a smaller scale in EVERY SINGLE state every single day.
Just like the rest of your strawmen arguments, your wire tapping privacy rights comparison is wholly irrelevant to this case.
Go back and read the article carefully. Try to gain a little understanding. Maybe then, you'll be able to engage in a reasoned discussion instead of continually throwing out wild accusations based on nothing but your personal biases.
you're 100% right . . . | 7:45 a.m. May 7, 2008
. .SJ Bobkins | (1:31 a.m.)
FLDS ongoing existence depends on keeping children isolated from the outside world, brainwashing them and getting the girls pregnant and vested in the lifestyle before they are mature enough to decide for themselves.
Remove the ability to isolate and coerce children and FLDS dries up, few mature competent women with options in life will buy into the lifestyle.
As it currently exist FLDS is inheritly abusive to children.
FLDS ongoing existence depends on keeping children isolated from the outside world, brainwashing them and getting the girls pregnant and vested in the lifestyle before they are mature enough to decide for themselves.
Remove the ability to isolate and coerce children and FLDS dries up, few mature competent women with options in life will buy into the lifestyle.
As it currently exist FLDS is inheritly abusive to children.
Judy | 7:46 a.m. May 7, 2008
As a lactation consultant, I have worked with 3 families who got tangled with
CPS. In one,, the parents were members of a cult that glorified "pure
food" but the child was literally starving to death.CPS's intervention
saved the infant's life. After he was out of danger, he went home but the
family was monitored for a long time. In another, a doctor reported evidence
that might have been sexual abuse (anal STD in baby girl) but after 3 months
they decided it was congenital and reunited the family--hope they were correct!
In a third case, the husband was severely beating the older children (the school
called) and all 5 were taken from the home, including the nursing toddler. This
mother who was also abused left the abuser, moved into a shelter and got back
her kids. I have a world of respect for the work CPS does--they see the worst
and focus on what is best for the kids. It is a very difficult task
Best for the Kids | 7:50 a.m. May 7, 2008
If the allegations of abuse are true, the parents deserve to lose their kids.
If the allegations of abuse are false, the parents deserve to get their kids back.
In either case, CPS did not "STEAL" or "KIDNAP" the kids.
Texas took the kids into protective custody, just as any other state who investigated reports of child abuse and found evidence of possible child abuse would have done.
If the allegations of abuse are false, the parents deserve to get their kids back.
In either case, CPS did not "STEAL" or "KIDNAP" the kids.
Texas took the kids into protective custody, just as any other state who investigated reports of child abuse and found evidence of possible child abuse would have done.
Proud Texan | 8:01 a.m. May 7, 2008
It's amazing to me that so many of you don't think there's
anything wrong with 50-year-old perverted scumbags raping 14-year-old children,
and calling it "religion." This is sexual abuse, pure and simple, and
these men need to spend the rest of their lives in prison cells with hairy old
convicts who will show them how it feels.....
anonymous | 8:08 a.m. May 7, 2008
Contrarian said:
"If we admit that FLDS people are just like us - that they love their children, then common sense explanations work well.
"
I absolutely don't admit that FLDS people are just like us. I have a mind of my own and make decisions for myself. If anyone in my church tried to tell my daughter, no matter what her age, who she had to marry, I would not allow it. And if anyone in my church said my husband wasn't to be my husband anymore and I and my kids had to go live with some other man, I wouldn't allow it. If they said my teenage son had to move out of the community for watching movies or talking to girls or some other phoney reason, I wouldn't allow it. These parents are mindless drones doing the bidding of their self-proclaimed prophet, and put his wishes above the needs of their children.
"If we admit that FLDS people are just like us - that they love their children, then common sense explanations work well.
"
I absolutely don't admit that FLDS people are just like us. I have a mind of my own and make decisions for myself. If anyone in my church tried to tell my daughter, no matter what her age, who she had to marry, I would not allow it. And if anyone in my church said my husband wasn't to be my husband anymore and I and my kids had to go live with some other man, I wouldn't allow it. If they said my teenage son had to move out of the community for watching movies or talking to girls or some other phoney reason, I wouldn't allow it. These parents are mindless drones doing the bidding of their self-proclaimed prophet, and put his wishes above the needs of their children.
David | 8:25 a.m. May 7, 2008
Why do so many of you keep the defamatory story about child abuse up? CPS
admits that there is no evidence of Child abuse. The amount of broken bones in
the FLDS children is LOWER than that in the average population. The
bishop's records show that the young women that married, often did so to
men very close to their own age.
Of noted concern is that ONE warrant was issued to the entire compoound when there are 19 buildings with individual apartments contained within (also listed in the bishop's record.) That would be like 1 warrant for an entire apartment complex. If you don't find that disturbing, I really feel sorry for this country.
You use words like Brainwashed and stepford wives when even Carolyn Jessop admits that people makes decisions for themselves despite Warren's "revelations." Her own daughter, after 5 years in the real world, returned to the FLDS two days after turning 18. If abuse took place, she would remember it.
Don't judge the many for the few as you could be next in line for judgment.
Of noted concern is that ONE warrant was issued to the entire compoound when there are 19 buildings with individual apartments contained within (also listed in the bishop's record.) That would be like 1 warrant for an entire apartment complex. If you don't find that disturbing, I really feel sorry for this country.
You use words like Brainwashed and stepford wives when even Carolyn Jessop admits that people makes decisions for themselves despite Warren's "revelations." Her own daughter, after 5 years in the real world, returned to the FLDS two days after turning 18. If abuse took place, she would remember it.
Don't judge the many for the few as you could be next in line for judgment.
JC | 8:26 a.m. May 7, 2008
It seems that many are talking about this all being in the interest of the
children and therefore even if some rights are overlooked it is fine. But have
we really considered if this is truly in the best interest of all those
Children? Some of the families on the ranch were not even in plural marriages
and some where single mothers. Over 100 of the children are under 5. Is it
really in the best interest of all those children to be taken from their Mothers
and placed in foster care or is the state persecuting this group based on a
shared religion?
JC | 8:29 a.m. May 7, 2008
Here is what Dr Phil had to say when Larry King asked the question I mentioned
in my other comment on all the kids being placed in Foster care.
�King: Let's turn to the polygamy matter. If the allegations of abuse are true, do you see any problem with all of these children in foster care?
Dr Phil: I see huge problems with it, Larry. I think we're in a situation here that there is not necessarily a good option. Now, think about this: there are only a certain number of these children that were believed to be at risk. But, yet, all of the children were taken out and put into foster care. Now, I've said this before, the statistics tell us that 73 percent of all children that go into foster care wind up on the street or in jail. So, that means that if you apply those numbers to these 416 children, 304 of them would be predicted to wind up on the street or in jail. Is that a good alternative? And I don't think it is.�
�King: Let's turn to the polygamy matter. If the allegations of abuse are true, do you see any problem with all of these children in foster care?
Dr Phil: I see huge problems with it, Larry. I think we're in a situation here that there is not necessarily a good option. Now, think about this: there are only a certain number of these children that were believed to be at risk. But, yet, all of the children were taken out and put into foster care. Now, I've said this before, the statistics tell us that 73 percent of all children that go into foster care wind up on the street or in jail. So, that means that if you apply those numbers to these 416 children, 304 of them would be predicted to wind up on the street or in jail. Is that a good alternative? And I don't think it is.�
wrz | 8:38 a.m. May 7, 2008
>>As usual, you're wrong on every point. >What Texas has done in
taking the FLDS children into protective custody, while they're
investigating possible child abuse, is done on a smaller scale in EVERY SINGLE
state every single day. >Go back and read the article carefully. >Try to
gain a little understanding. >Maybe then, you'll be able to engage in a
reasoned discussion instead of continually throwing out wild accusations based
on nothing but your personal biases.<<
I don't engage in discussions. I post my opinions. Article 1 to the US Constitution Bill of Rights says I can.
I don't engage in discussions. I post my opinions. Article 1 to the US Constitution Bill of Rights says I can.
Re: Genocide | 8:46 a.m. May 7, 2008
To: appalled
Regardless of how many time you spam this blog with your ridiculous genocide nonsense, this isn't genocide.
This is about child abuse, which you're so desperate to prevent being properly investigated, that you'll use any argument you can to try to distract the focus from where it should be.
Regardless of how many time you spam this blog with your ridiculous genocide nonsense, this isn't genocide.
This is about child abuse, which you're so desperate to prevent being properly investigated, that you'll use any argument you can to try to distract the focus from where it should be.
Susan | 8:49 a.m. May 7, 2008
>>It's amazing to me that so many of you don't think
there's anything wrong with 50-year-old perverted scumbags raping
14-year-old children, and calling it "religion."<<
What's amazing is that you and much of Texas did not condemn the practice (actually the law) in Texas of allowing 14 year old girls to marry older men UNTIL the FLDS came to town. Go figure.
What's amazing is that you and much of Texas did not condemn the practice (actually the law) in Texas of allowing 14 year old girls to marry older men UNTIL the FLDS came to town. Go figure.
Can't believe | 8:54 a.m. May 7, 2008
When is it okay for the state to tell you what to believe. (they tell mothers
if the will denounce their religion they may get their children back) What!
this is not a religious war. You are all so sure of abuse we still have not
seen the evidence to take all the children away from everybody and I don't
care what others say everybody on the ranch wasn't bad just as everybody in
any city is bad. Where is the humanity here, animals get more rights than we
are giving these people. I know there will be those that think the FLDS are
worse than animals because of the abuse. It is only allegations not facts.
The Texan | 8:54 a.m. May 7, 2008
Some people will never see anything coming as long as they close their eyes,
ears and common sense.
CPS has been vindicated. They went the court route all the way and got permission. And found things that were abusive. There is no conspiracy, there is no abuse of power. There was an investigation and the investigation found abuse. How long must this go on before the FLDS come to their senses? Apparently a lot longer because no one is cueing up for the smart pill.
Some of the posts on here smack of conspiracy rumor mongering. The FLDS could bring this to a reasonable end in a heart beat but they appear not willing to. They'll have to pay the price then.
CPS has been vindicated. They went the court route all the way and got permission. And found things that were abusive. There is no conspiracy, there is no abuse of power. There was an investigation and the investigation found abuse. How long must this go on before the FLDS come to their senses? Apparently a lot longer because no one is cueing up for the smart pill.
Some of the posts on here smack of conspiracy rumor mongering. The FLDS could bring this to a reasonable end in a heart beat but they appear not willing to. They'll have to pay the price then.
Constitutional | 8:56 a.m. May 7, 2008
"Few are saying that what the Texas CPS is doing is not legal ACCORDING TO
TEXAS LAW. But there is a higher law, the US Constitution."
Do you really think that with all of the lawyers in this country, if Texas had any laws that weren't "Constitutional," that wouldn't have been challenged a long time ago?
Texas' CPS laws are similar to CPS laws in other states. Maybe there will be some changes made because of this case, but the higher priority of protecting children from abuse gives much more latitude to CPS to investigate and act. The courts have recognized this higher priority.
Maybe it's time you did. What is so pressing, that you don't want to give CPS time to conduct a thorough investigation?
Do you really think that with all of the lawyers in this country, if Texas had any laws that weren't "Constitutional," that wouldn't have been challenged a long time ago?
Texas' CPS laws are similar to CPS laws in other states. Maybe there will be some changes made because of this case, but the higher priority of protecting children from abuse gives much more latitude to CPS to investigate and act. The courts have recognized this higher priority.
Maybe it's time you did. What is so pressing, that you don't want to give CPS time to conduct a thorough investigation?
Freddie | 9:00 a.m. May 7, 2008
"I absolutely don't admit that FLDS people are just like us."
And they are likely thanking their lucky stars.
"I have a mind of my own and make decisions for myself. If anyone in my church tried to tell my daughter, no matter what her age, who she had to marry, I would not allow it. And if anyone in my church said my husband wasn't to be my husband anymore and I and my kids had to go live with some other man, I wouldn't allow it. If they said my teenage son had to move out of the community for watching movies or talking to girls or some other phoney reason, I wouldn't allow it."
Then I suggest you don't join their group. Instead you can join the society that allows/promotes drugs, nudity, serialized polygamy, prostitution, teen sex, etc. Go for it.
And they are likely thanking their lucky stars.
"I have a mind of my own and make decisions for myself. If anyone in my church tried to tell my daughter, no matter what her age, who she had to marry, I would not allow it. And if anyone in my church said my husband wasn't to be my husband anymore and I and my kids had to go live with some other man, I wouldn't allow it. If they said my teenage son had to move out of the community for watching movies or talking to girls or some other phoney reason, I wouldn't allow it."
Then I suggest you don't join their group. Instead you can join the society that allows/promotes drugs, nudity, serialized polygamy, prostitution, teen sex, etc. Go for it.
Robin Wildflower | 9:10 a.m. May 7, 2008
Bill of Rights
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
Amendment III
No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
Amendment III
No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Robin Wildflower | 9:13 a.m. May 7, 2008
Bill of Rights
Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.
Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.
Hard to Believe | 9:14 a.m. May 7, 2008
The more comments I read from the FLDS and their sympathizers, the harder it
becomes to believe anything they say.
There a millions of people in this country who dress "funny", who have strange beliefs and customs, who have different moral values, different lifestyles, and different co-habitation arrangements.
The reason the FLDS children were taken away is because of CHILD ABUSE. Their clothes, their hairstyles, their unclosed ranch, their lifestyle, their beliefs, have nothing to do with it, except where those beliefs include practices which are against the law and lead to children being abused.
If the FLDS want people to start believing that they really care about their children, then they need to get rid of their illegal practices that lead to child abuse.
There a millions of people in this country who dress "funny", who have strange beliefs and customs, who have different moral values, different lifestyles, and different co-habitation arrangements.
The reason the FLDS children were taken away is because of CHILD ABUSE. Their clothes, their hairstyles, their unclosed ranch, their lifestyle, their beliefs, have nothing to do with it, except where those beliefs include practices which are against the law and lead to children being abused.
If the FLDS want people to start believing that they really care about their children, then they need to get rid of their illegal practices that lead to child abuse.
Re: David | 9:19 a.m. May 7, 2008
"Why do so many of you keep the defamatory story about child abuse up? CPS
admits that there is no evidence of Child abuse."
This is a blatant lie and a total distortion of all of the facts of this case.
This is a blatant lie and a total distortion of all of the facts of this case.
Anonymous | 9:21 a.m. May 7, 2008
Those of you who criticize the State of Texas and the CPS are showing your true
lack of integrity. It is obvious you don't know and/or understand what the
true facts are or you wouldn't be making such fault-finding accusations.
None of us were there at the time the children and women were taken. None of us
have participated in the findings with respect to the underage pregnancy and
abuse of children. We simply do not know the facts. All we know is what is in
the printed media and what we see on television. For purposes of reporting
there are inaccuracies in that reporting. It's simply human nature to
report things the way one feels will grab the attention. For you who chose to
criticize based on this information, you are very pathetic and you speak loudly
your obvious lack of knowledge about the situation. You should be holding your
judgment until the investigation is over and the truth comes out. If someone
called and said your child was drowning somewhere would you simply wait to see
if the caller were telling the truth or would you go check it out?
Red | 9:25 a.m. May 7, 2008
"[I]t would be wonderful for the FLDS children if the adults could make the
changes required by CPS sooner than later...."
CPS investigator Angie Voss testified that the "change required" would be for the adults to renounce their religion.
gal50, if the State demanded that you renounce your faith or lose your kids, how cooperative would you be inclined to be?
CPS investigator Angie Voss testified that the "change required" would be for the adults to renounce their religion.
gal50, if the State demanded that you renounce your faith or lose your kids, how cooperative would you be inclined to be?
Kevin | 9:32 a.m. May 7, 2008
Texas needs to pass a law requiring a judges approval before a minor can marry
anyone more than 5 years older than themselves and make it a criminal offense
comparable to rape for the older person.
XGI | 9:31 a.m. May 7, 2008
The FLDS people are not taught to break the law. When the investigations are
over you will know that they are just as law abiding as any people. The Men are
not hormungers. They take care of their wives. The woman is the one who asks
for the child. They do love their children. The call was a hoax. There is no
abuse unless you call getting married abuse. There is a double standard being
applied there and those of you who are the most outspoken against this clean and
pure people are just telling on yourself. They actually believe the Doctorin
and Covenance and they do read it and study it. So go and read section 121
starting at vers 39. Don"t read the first part you won't like that
for it tells what you are and what is going to thppen to you. I didn't
write it and I told you not to read it.
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Thank goodness the kids are out of the religious prison.