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Jessop says Jeffs to blame for FLDS troubles
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Re: dlr | 12:34 p.m. May 6, 2008
Hey dlr...do you realize the website with all the vidoes of happy children
playing is a website made by the FLDS? Of course the videos are of happy
children. They aren't going to post videos of abused, crying, water
tortured babies. The FLDS are very exprienced at covering up their actions.
Everything is done in secret. You are only seeing what they want you to see.
Wake up!
Justhefacts manipulates stats! | 12:36 p.m. May 6, 2008
Way to twist the numbers to your favor. Comparing AVERAGES is highly CONVENIENT
for you to "prove" your point. I bet you took each individual Husband
once to come up with average Husband age and then each Wife and did the same.
That would NOT be accurate!!! If you have a 56 year old Husband with four
wives, in order to accurately reflect the age variance between Husbands and
Wives, you would need to count the 56 yo Husband 4 times, not just ONCE. Your
numbers will come up waaay different then! Either way, reading this list of
families is making me ill thinking of all the crystal clear times that a 19 year
old wife has a 2 year old (meaning she was pregnant at 16 more than likely) and
she's not the First Wife, or the different last names of children where
it's obvious someone has been "awarded" someone else's
children. Gross.
Comments continue below
Is this the best source of advic | 12:37 p.m. May 6, 2008
My first thought on reading this headline was... "why are they getting
their advice from her"?
Think about it... If the government were going into some important negotiations with China, would you want to consult with the biggest China-hatter you could find to understand them?
She may be correct on most of her stories about this group, but she appears to be exagerating or making some things seem to be more routine than they really are. She's lost credibility with me because some stories I heard her tell on Larry King are made up as far as I can tell.
She claims the FLDS routinely waterboard newborns to "Break" them. No one has corroborated this claim. She just tells so many stories that no one else has seen (evidently to get on TV or get people's attention and to sell her book), that I just don't see her as a reliable source the government should be getting all their info about FLDS from.
They want her on the team... And SHE was part of the Hoax call that started this whole thing and she couldn't even tell the caller wasn't a fake! Or did she know, but didn't care?
Think about it... If the government were going into some important negotiations with China, would you want to consult with the biggest China-hatter you could find to understand them?
She may be correct on most of her stories about this group, but she appears to be exagerating or making some things seem to be more routine than they really are. She's lost credibility with me because some stories I heard her tell on Larry King are made up as far as I can tell.
She claims the FLDS routinely waterboard newborns to "Break" them. No one has corroborated this claim. She just tells so many stories that no one else has seen (evidently to get on TV or get people's attention and to sell her book), that I just don't see her as a reliable source the government should be getting all their info about FLDS from.
They want her on the team... And SHE was part of the Hoax call that started this whole thing and she couldn't even tell the caller wasn't a fake! Or did she know, but didn't care?
Gal50 | 12:37 p.m. May 6, 2008
What interested me about this article were the comments on Warren Jeffs and the
good mothers. The relationship between the two has to be examined.
Jeffs is responsible for this mess and to a lesser extent so are his followers. Jeff's father cut the FLDS leadership from seven to one, which set the stage for abuse. Self-appointed Warren Jeffs was severely incompetent as a leader and he doomed the FLDS members to disaster, which would not have happened had there been seven leaders. Our government has a system of checks and balances and elections for this very reason.
Leaders hungry for power love obedient subjects and that is what Jeffs demanded. The subjects were promised eternal damnation if they didn't comply with his every wish. He appointed himself the prophet. There comes a time when members need to take responsibility and realize that a mistake has been made, that something is very wrong, but this didn't happen. Our legal system holds adults responsible for their actions even if they grow up under horrible circumstances in which it would be nearly impossible to make reasonable decisions. It is understandable that otherwise good mothers didn't abide by the law, butitisn't excusable.
Jeffs is responsible for this mess and to a lesser extent so are his followers. Jeff's father cut the FLDS leadership from seven to one, which set the stage for abuse. Self-appointed Warren Jeffs was severely incompetent as a leader and he doomed the FLDS members to disaster, which would not have happened had there been seven leaders. Our government has a system of checks and balances and elections for this very reason.
Leaders hungry for power love obedient subjects and that is what Jeffs demanded. The subjects were promised eternal damnation if they didn't comply with his every wish. He appointed himself the prophet. There comes a time when members need to take responsibility and realize that a mistake has been made, that something is very wrong, but this didn't happen. Our legal system holds adults responsible for their actions even if they grow up under horrible circumstances in which it would be nearly impossible to make reasonable decisions. It is understandable that otherwise good mothers didn't abide by the law, butitisn't excusable.
10 News Stories a week! | 12:37 p.m. May 6, 2008
Sandy, John & Proud to be a TEXAN
My point to those here who refuse to see the victim end of this or childrens rights, is that those with the influence to continue generating stories in the news will! The movement to expose abuses, is fueled by the mindset of "two wrongs make a right" or "lets through the baby (victims) out with the bath water". These folks need a class in journalism 101! Where there is SMOKE, there is fire and these folks are blowing far to much smoke!
I am working with the media and have for 8 years now. I use these defenses as examples of why more public exposure is needed. Smoke and mirrors to deflect a long list of abuses, may play well to like minds of a narrow minority, but the national media and public opinion outside of Utah finds offense in defenders of abuse. Its not smart to publicly defend the FLDS men, when any one with a brain can watch Warren Jeffs confession on youtube.com
If you think about it, I am not her to change any bodys mind, but we both our playing to an audience, is it mine or yours?
My point to those here who refuse to see the victim end of this or childrens rights, is that those with the influence to continue generating stories in the news will! The movement to expose abuses, is fueled by the mindset of "two wrongs make a right" or "lets through the baby (victims) out with the bath water". These folks need a class in journalism 101! Where there is SMOKE, there is fire and these folks are blowing far to much smoke!
I am working with the media and have for 8 years now. I use these defenses as examples of why more public exposure is needed. Smoke and mirrors to deflect a long list of abuses, may play well to like minds of a narrow minority, but the national media and public opinion outside of Utah finds offense in defenders of abuse. Its not smart to publicly defend the FLDS men, when any one with a brain can watch Warren Jeffs confession on youtube.com
If you think about it, I am not her to change any bodys mind, but we both our playing to an audience, is it mine or yours?
KIDSRN | 12:41 p.m. May 6, 2008
I just want to say that anyone writing a book is their own perception of things.
Are we to say that all those who talked about the holocaust were swayed by the
way they thought things were? Someone can have cancer and have a wonderful
story to tell and we don't criticize that person for writing a book or
making a movie. If you haven't been involved then you have no clue, and
you have no right to comment. Being a RN at a children's hospital, the
fact that there are records of broken bones and girls under aged pregnant, Gives
me quite concerns. I feel that this should be investigated and if there is
nothing found then those children will be placed back. If I have a child come
in for possible abuse then all the children in those parents or preditors care
are removed till the story is cleared. Let's think about the children and
not ourselves. And can we quit talking about the age span...GEE WHIZ! The
State of Texas is looking at the underaged issues not the ones that are older.
Carolyn is not the only one | 12:43 p.m. May 6, 2008
Who has told her story about the FLDS. There are countless victims! I'm
glad she has told her story. Many others have told their stories too in the
media. Some of you FLDS defenders can't even do research.
What about these escapees? Are they lying too?
Fawn Broadbent, Fawn Holm, Kathi Jo Nicholson, Brent Jeffs, Elissa Wall, Sara Hammon, Caroline Cooke, and so on? Look on Youtube too about the FLDS. You FLDS defenders amaze me every day.
What about these escapees? Are they lying too?
Fawn Broadbent, Fawn Holm, Kathi Jo Nicholson, Brent Jeffs, Elissa Wall, Sara Hammon, Caroline Cooke, and so on? Look on Youtube too about the FLDS. You FLDS defenders amaze me every day.
Re: justthefactsmaam | 12:44 p.m. May 6, 2008
Yes, justthefactsmaam, there are many people married to individuals decades
younger or older than themselves. But, what you fail to point out in your handy
little list there is none of those on the list were younger than 18 when they
got married and none on that list were forced into a marriage and raped. BIG
DIFFERENCE! If you think FLDS men marrying 15 year old girls againts the
girls' will and then 'consummating' that marriage against the
girls' will is the same as Jerry Seinfield marrying a legal adult who chose
to date and marry Jerry is the same, well then sounds like you are either FLDS
or on your way to signing up.
justthefactsmaam | 12:46 p.m. May 6, 2008
Justhefacts manipulates stats! | 12:36 p.m. May 6, 2008
Way to twist the numbers to your favor. Comparing AVERAGES is highly CONVENIENT for you to "prove" your point. I bet you took each individual Husband once to come up with average Husband age and then each Wife and did the same. That would NOT be accurate!!! If you have a 56 year old Husband with four wives, in order to accurately reflect the age variance between Husbands and Wives, you would need to count the 56 yo Husband 4 times, not just ONCE. Your numbers will come up waaay different then! Either way, reading this list of families is making me ill thinking of all the crystal clear times that a 19 year old wife has a 2 year old (meaning she was pregnant at 16 more than likely) and she's not the First Wife, or the different last names of children where it's obvious someone has been "awarded" someone else's children. Gross.
>>>Go Fish.
Those stats came from today's online version of the SLC Tribune.
Copy and paste baby...
Way to twist the numbers to your favor. Comparing AVERAGES is highly CONVENIENT for you to "prove" your point. I bet you took each individual Husband once to come up with average Husband age and then each Wife and did the same. That would NOT be accurate!!! If you have a 56 year old Husband with four wives, in order to accurately reflect the age variance between Husbands and Wives, you would need to count the 56 yo Husband 4 times, not just ONCE. Your numbers will come up waaay different then! Either way, reading this list of families is making me ill thinking of all the crystal clear times that a 19 year old wife has a 2 year old (meaning she was pregnant at 16 more than likely) and she's not the First Wife, or the different last names of children where it's obvious someone has been "awarded" someone else's children. Gross.
>>>Go Fish.
Those stats came from today's online version of the SLC Tribune.
Copy and paste baby...
parents | 12:47 p.m. May 6, 2008
My parents had an arranged marriage. They both immigrated from Europe with
their children. They lived over 50 years as husband and wife and died within
two years of one another, my dad just missed my mom too much to want to go on.
He was 9 years older than she.
Anonymous | 12:50 p.m. May 6, 2008
I have been PASSIONATELY and RELIGIOUS posting and arguing on this story for
about a month. I think this post from another commenter just cured my addiciton:
********
you have a 56 year old Husband with four wives, in order to accurately reflect the age variance between Husbands and Wives, you would need to count the 56 yo Husband 4 times, not just ONCE.
**********
Dear person not very good at math, do you know how to do an average?
If we do what you want to do...count the man's age 4 times 4 his 4 wives....
56 + 56 + 56 + 56 = 224
and then we divide that result by 4 as you must do when calculating an average, 224 divided by 4 is still 56.
D'Oh!
No wonder the average ADULT American can't figure this out?!
They need to repeat 3rd grade!
Heaven help us all...
********
you have a 56 year old Husband with four wives, in order to accurately reflect the age variance between Husbands and Wives, you would need to count the 56 yo Husband 4 times, not just ONCE.
**********
Dear person not very good at math, do you know how to do an average?
If we do what you want to do...count the man's age 4 times 4 his 4 wives....
56 + 56 + 56 + 56 = 224
and then we divide that result by 4 as you must do when calculating an average, 224 divided by 4 is still 56.
D'Oh!
No wonder the average ADULT American can't figure this out?!
They need to repeat 3rd grade!
Heaven help us all...
Stewart | 12:53 p.m. May 6, 2008
There seem to be a lot of folks that read the DesNews that approve of the abuse
of children as long as it is for religious purposes. Jessop states, "Her
biggest fear now is that the group will band together to protect their leaders
at the cost of losing the children." This is an example of the
People's Temple syndrome of the late Jim Jones cult. When the leaders are
able to isolate cult members as the FLDS have done, it is not a far stretch for
these mothers to have given their children the Kool-Aid if ordered to by their
leaders. In this case the Kool-Aid has been the marriages of children to those
who have "earned" the right to impregnate young girls.
Rape | 12:56 p.m. May 6, 2008
Why is it that the very woman that ultimately got Warren Jeffs put into jail on
accomplice to rape charges didn't want rape charges filed against her
husband, the very man that raped her?
Why is it that so many women that have left the FLDS though pressured also state that they have refused to marry a certain person only to marry another more preferred person?
Why is it that even CPS states that there is no evidence of rape?
Why is it that Jessop states women didn't obey Warren Jeffs en masse when he created the new and revealed policy of no red? yet we are now supposed to believe they are blindly obedient to en masse child abuse. It doesn't add up to me and you can't have it both ways. It leaves me to believe that her memories are not reliable.
Why is it that so many women that have left the FLDS though pressured also state that they have refused to marry a certain person only to marry another more preferred person?
Why is it that even CPS states that there is no evidence of rape?
Why is it that Jessop states women didn't obey Warren Jeffs en masse when he created the new and revealed policy of no red? yet we are now supposed to believe they are blindly obedient to en masse child abuse. It doesn't add up to me and you can't have it both ways. It leaves me to believe that her memories are not reliable.
Re: justthefactsmaam | 12:57 p.m. May 6, 2008
justthefactsmaam, averages don't mean much. For example you could have half
the marriages be 60 year old men to 15 year old women and the half be 20 year
old men to 20 year old women. The "average" would happen to fall quite
nicely into our societies "norm"; however, 50 percent of a population
marrying women under the age of 16 is not normal and speaks very highly of
pervasive and systematic system of abuse.
Sorry to break it to you, but the FLDS church teaches unquestioned obedience to the "prophet" and the "prophet" is stuck in jail, convicted of forcing a 14 year old girl to marry and be raped against her will. And there were plenty of facts to prove such took place, just ask the 12 jurors.
Sorry to break it to you, but the FLDS church teaches unquestioned obedience to the "prophet" and the "prophet" is stuck in jail, convicted of forcing a 14 year old girl to marry and be raped against her will. And there were plenty of facts to prove such took place, just ask the 12 jurors.
Re: justthefactsmaam | 12:59 p.m. May 6, 2008
Average age is meaningless.
The central issue is child rape and whether or not the FLDS were systematically forcing underaged girls into arranged marriages to be raped.
If a girl is younger than the age of consent, it's statutory rape, whether she's illegally married or not.
The central issue is child rape and whether or not the FLDS were systematically forcing underaged girls into arranged marriages to be raped.
If a girl is younger than the age of consent, it's statutory rape, whether she's illegally married or not.
justthefactsmaam | 1:06 p.m. May 6, 2008
What's going to shock all you
HATERS
is that even under TEXAS law I predict that there will only be
0 to 4
attempted prosecutions at statutory rape and I predict that the
MOST LIKELY NUMBER
is
-0- attempts.
Any attempts above -0-, I doubt that those convictions will hold up on appeal.
The Bishop Records show at MOST 4 girls that could have POSSIBLY been in Texas and even POSSIBLY have been underage EVEN WITH Texas moving the minimum age of marriage around fro 14 to 16 under their illegal and unconstitutional Bill of Attainder specifically designed to "catch" FLDS from the on the record statements of NUMEROUS Texas "officials" including Republican Hildebran.
The consenting adult bigamy charges will eventually be shot down by the Supreme Court of the US just like they shot down the Texas anti-sodomy criminal charges in Lawrence vs Texas. In fact, it might not even have to get to SCOTUS as the reasoning in Lawrence was so clear and so clearly applies to FLDS here where consenting adults are involved.
I think about the only thing that will stick are the 2 charges of interference during the raid.
HATERS
is that even under TEXAS law I predict that there will only be
0 to 4
attempted prosecutions at statutory rape and I predict that the
MOST LIKELY NUMBER
is
-0- attempts.
Any attempts above -0-, I doubt that those convictions will hold up on appeal.
The Bishop Records show at MOST 4 girls that could have POSSIBLY been in Texas and even POSSIBLY have been underage EVEN WITH Texas moving the minimum age of marriage around fro 14 to 16 under their illegal and unconstitutional Bill of Attainder specifically designed to "catch" FLDS from the on the record statements of NUMEROUS Texas "officials" including Republican Hildebran.
The consenting adult bigamy charges will eventually be shot down by the Supreme Court of the US just like they shot down the Texas anti-sodomy criminal charges in Lawrence vs Texas. In fact, it might not even have to get to SCOTUS as the reasoning in Lawrence was so clear and so clearly applies to FLDS here where consenting adults are involved.
I think about the only thing that will stick are the 2 charges of interference during the raid.
Re: Disturbed | 1:10 p.m. May 6, 2008
Disturbed, it's not a crime to be a mother. It is a crime, however, to be
an accomplice to rape, kidnapping and abuse, which all of these mothers are
guilty of. Sorry to break it to you.
The FLDS practices removing children from one family and placing them with another. Also known as kidnapping. Any mother agreeing to keep those children and not return the children to the rightful parents is an accomplice to kidnapping.
Any mother that allows a child to be forced into a marriage and raped is an accomplice to rape. The same crime Jeffs is guilty of. Why would the crime be any different because of gender?
Any mother that stands by while their "husband" abuses, water tortures, or molests a child could be found guilty of accomplice.
So, if I were you I would be disturbed that these women were accomplices to so many crimes and are going unpunished for it. In the end, more than likely several men will be rightfully convicted, whereas the women won't, even though they are just as guilty.
The FLDS practices removing children from one family and placing them with another. Also known as kidnapping. Any mother agreeing to keep those children and not return the children to the rightful parents is an accomplice to kidnapping.
Any mother that allows a child to be forced into a marriage and raped is an accomplice to rape. The same crime Jeffs is guilty of. Why would the crime be any different because of gender?
Any mother that stands by while their "husband" abuses, water tortures, or molests a child could be found guilty of accomplice.
So, if I were you I would be disturbed that these women were accomplices to so many crimes and are going unpunished for it. In the end, more than likely several men will be rightfully convicted, whereas the women won't, even though they are just as guilty.
justthefactsmaam | 1:15 p.m. May 6, 2008
What a lot of you here also don't understand is that Texas has COMMON LAW
marriage (meaning you don't have to be the proud owner of a state-issued
marriage certificate in order to be considered MARRIED in a court of law).
What does this mean?
It means that IF FLDS PARENTS consented to a 14 or 15 year old daughter being "spiritually married" to their husband before Texas raised the age from 14 to 16 in September of 2005, no possibility of conviction because no Texas law was broken.
Furthermore, it means that if FLDS PARENTS consented to a 16 or 17 year old daughted being "spiritually married" to their husband AFTER they changed the law from 14 UP to 16 in September of 2005, no possibility of conviction because no Texas law was broken.
GODLY people ALWAYS win in the end. Some of it might have to make its way to SCOTUS, but before all this is over bigamy laws applied to polygynous cohabitation will be declared UNCONSTITUTIONAL, few to 0 men will be charged with child rape, and FLDS will walk away with a BILLION or more $ of Texas taxpayer $. PTL!
What does this mean?
It means that IF FLDS PARENTS consented to a 14 or 15 year old daughter being "spiritually married" to their husband before Texas raised the age from 14 to 16 in September of 2005, no possibility of conviction because no Texas law was broken.
Furthermore, it means that if FLDS PARENTS consented to a 16 or 17 year old daughted being "spiritually married" to their husband AFTER they changed the law from 14 UP to 16 in September of 2005, no possibility of conviction because no Texas law was broken.
GODLY people ALWAYS win in the end. Some of it might have to make its way to SCOTUS, but before all this is over bigamy laws applied to polygynous cohabitation will be declared UNCONSTITUTIONAL, few to 0 men will be charged with child rape, and FLDS will walk away with a BILLION or more $ of Texas taxpayer $. PTL!
Re: Rape | 1:19 p.m. May 6, 2008
-She rejected her "husband's" sexual assaults and Warren Jeffs
threw her back to the wolf.
-How many young girls were not allowed to refuse being forced to marry a man they did not choose?
-How do you know that Texas won't eventually be able to prove that girls have been raped. You're assuming that the investigation is complete and that all of the evidence has already been gathered.
-Maybe the adults are hypocrits who exercised their choice to wear red, but wouldn't allow the girls the choice of when and whom to marry.
-How many young girls were not allowed to refuse being forced to marry a man they did not choose?
-How do you know that Texas won't eventually be able to prove that girls have been raped. You're assuming that the investigation is complete and that all of the evidence has already been gathered.
-Maybe the adults are hypocrits who exercised their choice to wear red, but wouldn't allow the girls the choice of when and whom to marry.
Betty Jessop | 1:20 p.m. May 6, 2008
Why is it that after a five years being "free", Carolyn Jessop's
own daughter returned to the FLDS? She would have been old enough to remember
the abuse and had enough time to recover from Stockholm syndrome had that been
the case. Again Betty Jessop left at age 13 and returned two days after she
turned 18 and is living with another "mother."
justthefactsmaam | 1:25 p.m. May 6, 2008
The fellow that used the example of half the men age 60 with 15 year old wives
and half the men age 20 with 20 year old wives...
...THANK YOU for mathematically proving MY point!
Using YOUR numbers the average of your 2 groups above would be an age of 40 for the men and age 17 1/2 for women!
That yields an average age difference of 22 1/2 years!
Way out of WHACK with the FLDS reality of 7 years for polygynous FLDS and only 3 measley years of monogamous FLDS.
So not only have you proven HOW RELIABLE averages are...you have also proven HOW RELIABLE averages are the LARGER THE SAMPLING.
This is a sampling of over 600+ data points!
Once you get beyond a few dozen in a sampling, averages become INCREDIBLY EXCELLENT identifiers of "group behavior."
And that's why, AT MOST, the Bishop's census shows that POSSIBLY 4 cases of "statutory" rape may have occured.
But when ALL THE FACTS come out regarding those possible 4 cases, I doubt that even a single one of those will stick either.
Just another day in Waco, Texas land.
...THANK YOU for mathematically proving MY point!
Using YOUR numbers the average of your 2 groups above would be an age of 40 for the men and age 17 1/2 for women!
That yields an average age difference of 22 1/2 years!
Way out of WHACK with the FLDS reality of 7 years for polygynous FLDS and only 3 measley years of monogamous FLDS.
So not only have you proven HOW RELIABLE averages are...you have also proven HOW RELIABLE averages are the LARGER THE SAMPLING.
This is a sampling of over 600+ data points!
Once you get beyond a few dozen in a sampling, averages become INCREDIBLY EXCELLENT identifiers of "group behavior."
And that's why, AT MOST, the Bishop's census shows that POSSIBLY 4 cases of "statutory" rape may have occured.
But when ALL THE FACTS come out regarding those possible 4 cases, I doubt that even a single one of those will stick either.
Just another day in Waco, Texas land.
To RE Rape | 1:31 p.m. May 6, 2008
The one who claims "she rejected her husband's sexual assault"
should actually read more. She also didn't want charges filed against her
husband but only Warren but the legal system doesn't work that way. If you
have an accomplice you need the "rapist." Odd don't you think
that she didn't want her husband the rapist charged?
Eventually proving rape has been committed is not how the legal system works and the very reason I oppose this action as it stemmed from an illegal warrant.
And no, the parents were not hypocrites in wearing red then forcing girls to marry. How very disingenuous of you. They had choice, full choice but you would rather believe a brainwashing of the masses. Unfortunately for you, brainwashing has been disproved by science.
Now let us get on with actual criminal justice as it should work not removal of children on eventually maybe finding something to charge these weird people.
Eventually proving rape has been committed is not how the legal system works and the very reason I oppose this action as it stemmed from an illegal warrant.
And no, the parents were not hypocrites in wearing red then forcing girls to marry. How very disingenuous of you. They had choice, full choice but you would rather believe a brainwashing of the masses. Unfortunately for you, brainwashing has been disproved by science.
Now let us get on with actual criminal justice as it should work not removal of children on eventually maybe finding something to charge these weird people.
David | 1:37 p.m. May 6, 2008
I am opposed to child abuse. But, I am opposed to the wholesale removal of
children without evidence (per cps, the psychiatrist and FLDS expert testimony.)
Again for all those spouting child abuse, there is no evidence of child abuse
yet the children were still removed. They children have a lower than average
number of broken bones, yet they were removed. What excuse can we now use to
remove your children?
justthefactsmaam | 1:45 p.m. May 6, 2008
You know, even the
WORST THINGS
that are alleged (but not even proven) are known by the
HATERS (if they're honest)
to occur at an
EVERN HIGHER FREQUENCY
outside of the FLDS than INSIDE the FLDS!
These people's Godly living standards and styles PUT THE REST OF THIS UNGODLY COUNTRY TO SHAME!
You have to GROSSLY EXAGGERATE and MISREPORT to the level of BASICALLY HATE CRIME LEVEL in order to find just a
FEW EXAMPLES
of anything that even looks on the surface as wrongdoing...
...in a religious organizaton that has 15,000 people in it!
I guarantee you that you can take any 15,000 community in America from
BEVERLY HILLS
to
BOSTON'S FINEST NEIGHBOR
and you'll find FAR MORE "abuse" than what you will EVER find in the God-fearing hard-working people of the FLDS.
This from the virgin grandson of a Pentecostal Preacher. Never been FLDS nor LDS.
WORST THINGS
that are alleged (but not even proven) are known by the
HATERS (if they're honest)
to occur at an
EVERN HIGHER FREQUENCY
outside of the FLDS than INSIDE the FLDS!
These people's Godly living standards and styles PUT THE REST OF THIS UNGODLY COUNTRY TO SHAME!
You have to GROSSLY EXAGGERATE and MISREPORT to the level of BASICALLY HATE CRIME LEVEL in order to find just a
FEW EXAMPLES
of anything that even looks on the surface as wrongdoing...
...in a religious organizaton that has 15,000 people in it!
I guarantee you that you can take any 15,000 community in America from
BEVERLY HILLS
to
BOSTON'S FINEST NEIGHBOR
and you'll find FAR MORE "abuse" than what you will EVER find in the God-fearing hard-working people of the FLDS.
This from the virgin grandson of a Pentecostal Preacher. Never been FLDS nor LDS.
Re: Betty Jessop | 1:46 p.m. May 6, 2008
Because Betty Jessop received the same indoctrination as the rest and at 13 she
was probably well indoctrinated. Betty has her agency and chose to go back.
Carolyn has her agency and chose to leave. The FLDS tried to keep Carolyn from
leaving but Carolyn let Betty choose. Good for Carolyn. That says something
about her and about the FLDS doesn't it? The FLDS forces you to behave a
certain way, while Carolyn let her daughter choose.
But don't you think it's funny Betty Jessop was allowed to come back, but the countless youngmen and men kicked out of the church and "repenting from afar" aren't allowed to come back? Of course Betty Jessop can come back. She's 18 and unmarried. One more "spiritual wife" for a 50 year old man.
But don't you think it's funny Betty Jessop was allowed to come back, but the countless youngmen and men kicked out of the church and "repenting from afar" aren't allowed to come back? Of course Betty Jessop can come back. She's 18 and unmarried. One more "spiritual wife" for a 50 year old man.
Reality Check | 1:57 p.m. May 6, 2008
The issue in Texas is not Common Law marriages, but sex with a minor! The same
that got Rodney Holm & Warren Jeffs convicted. Cohabitation between adults
and calling it polygamy or any thing else, will net get prosecuted. Its a red
herring to state otherwise.
Then further Warren Jeffs had nearly 100 wives and a a lot of kids! DNA will state which ones! The mothers will be forced to chose between more charges piled on the leader or claiming their childrem, when those mothers prove that their unions to the prophet were created, with their first born conceived before the legal age of consent or maturity! DO you get it?
Children born before May 1st of 2007 might indicated Warren Jeffs officiated the union and if at Texas, then Texas is a crime scene with conspiracy. In the end, its going to get down to hard choices! To abandone the kids for the prophet, already jailed, makes a serious REALITY CHECK, that puts children in second choice also defending the raid. Chosing the children first abandoneds the prophet who will surely see new charges!
A constitutional challenge is all the FLDS has and it needs universal sympathy!
Then further Warren Jeffs had nearly 100 wives and a a lot of kids! DNA will state which ones! The mothers will be forced to chose between more charges piled on the leader or claiming their childrem, when those mothers prove that their unions to the prophet were created, with their first born conceived before the legal age of consent or maturity! DO you get it?
Children born before May 1st of 2007 might indicated Warren Jeffs officiated the union and if at Texas, then Texas is a crime scene with conspiracy. In the end, its going to get down to hard choices! To abandone the kids for the prophet, already jailed, makes a serious REALITY CHECK, that puts children in second choice also defending the raid. Chosing the children first abandoneds the prophet who will surely see new charges!
A constitutional challenge is all the FLDS has and it needs universal sympathy!
TheMadNuker | 2:04 p.m. May 6, 2008
Texas made a profound error in judgement. They should have bombed the evil
compound with airfuel bombs. Problem solved! At least that is the impression I
recieve from many of the emotional, and bigoted based comments posted on this
subject.
Really folks,we are talking about peoples lives here, not inanimate objects. Would you want such attitudes used in decisions involving your lives?
let's have less anger and venting, and more deep thinking with introspection. As was said in the TV show, Dragnet, "just the facts ma'am".
Really folks,we are talking about peoples lives here, not inanimate objects. Would you want such attitudes used in decisions involving your lives?
let's have less anger and venting, and more deep thinking with introspection. As was said in the TV show, Dragnet, "just the facts ma'am".
Ekim | 2:10 p.m. May 6, 2008
Go Carolyn!!
Finally, someone telling it like it is who has walked the talk.
Anyone defending the flds child-abuse lifestyle whould be absolutely ashamed.
Finally, someone telling it like it is who has walked the talk.
Anyone defending the flds child-abuse lifestyle whould be absolutely ashamed.
to E. Collins | 2:43 p.m. May 6, 2008
You say, "Refusal to protect or understand the victims is what fuels
this." Not true! Texas officials feed a new lie to the media about every
other day to try and cover their hiney for their outrageous treatment of these
people, then folks like you keep spreading hate speech like "incest &
rape", which none of these people have been accused of.
Thank God for the responsible people who are tryig to defend these defenseless people against the actions of corrup Texas politicians, including Judge Walthers. THAT is what this is about !!!!!!!
Thank God for the responsible people who are tryig to defend these defenseless people against the actions of corrup Texas politicians, including Judge Walthers. THAT is what this is about !!!!!!!
Tim | 2:58 p.m. May 6, 2008
The FLDS could have done A LOT BETTER without Warren J. but these EX Members are
the biggest trouble-makers in this whole sorry mess.
Oregonian | 3:00 p.m. May 6, 2008
Good post MadNuker.
Some of these self rightous bigots don't even realize they are spouting off left wing liberal socialist views. How can any thinking, feeling person defend 4 male police officers who assaulted a young mother to remove her 13 month old nursing infant from her arms? Thats what happened at one of those shelters and sounds like what Hitler's thugs did when they separated Jewish mothers' from their babies.
One of you socialists...please defend this.
Some of these self rightous bigots don't even realize they are spouting off left wing liberal socialist views. How can any thinking, feeling person defend 4 male police officers who assaulted a young mother to remove her 13 month old nursing infant from her arms? Thats what happened at one of those shelters and sounds like what Hitler's thugs did when they separated Jewish mothers' from their babies.
One of you socialists...please defend this.
Friend of Carolyn's | 3:01 p.m. May 6, 2008
It is sad to see so many people attacking Carolyn Jessop. I have known her for
4-5 years and can say that she is a real hero.
For those who believe that she is in this for the money, why would she leave the community in the first place? She was married to one of the elite men in the community and her and her children were well taken care of financially. So why would she take her 8 children(all 16 yrs and younger and one who of whom is severly disabled) and go and live as a single mom in a mobile home and in abject poverty. What was in it for her? She didn't even start writing the book until 3-4 years until after she left. She never even considered writing a book until friends kept encouraging her because her story was so inspirational. I don't think Carolyn would deny that she needs the money from book, but that is because she has to pay to take care of 7 children as a single mom. Her children and many others who have left confirm her story. I believe that those who are attacking her are bitter FLDS members.
For those who believe that she is in this for the money, why would she leave the community in the first place? She was married to one of the elite men in the community and her and her children were well taken care of financially. So why would she take her 8 children(all 16 yrs and younger and one who of whom is severly disabled) and go and live as a single mom in a mobile home and in abject poverty. What was in it for her? She didn't even start writing the book until 3-4 years until after she left. She never even considered writing a book until friends kept encouraging her because her story was so inspirational. I don't think Carolyn would deny that she needs the money from book, but that is because she has to pay to take care of 7 children as a single mom. Her children and many others who have left confirm her story. I believe that those who are attacking her are bitter FLDS members.
justthefactsmaam | 3:03 p.m. May 6, 2008
Go TRUTH and VERIFIED FACTS!
Anyone defending greedy and selfish purveyors of books for profit not caring who and what she left destroyed in her path should be absolutely ashamed.
Anyone defending greedy and selfish purveyors of books for profit not caring who and what she left destroyed in her path should be absolutely ashamed.
Thomas | 3:21 p.m. May 6, 2008
Reply to Annoymous 7:30 May 6
Two wrongs do not make a right. Literally taking a nursing 13 month old baby from her mother's arms is a horrible thing to do. Nothing makes it right. I do not understand why you accept it.
Two wrongs do not make a right. Literally taking a nursing 13 month old baby from her mother's arms is a horrible thing to do. Nothing makes it right. I do not understand why you accept it.
To RE Rape | 3:42 p.m. May 6, 2008
You obviously don't understand statutory rape.
She was too young to give consent and the "marriage" was illegal, therefore, any sexual relations amounted to statutory rape.
I don't find it odd at all, however, that she didn't want to press charges against her husband. Maybe she felt that he was just as much a victim of this system of forced arranged marriages as she was.
Why are you defending the raping of children? Quite obviously, you're more concerned with defending these despicable practices, than you are with protecting the children from abuse.
The adults, as you pointed, have rights. The children don't. The search warrant was legal, and, when CPS had to make a choice between leaving the children in a potentially abusive system, or taking them into protective custody until the allegations of abuse had been investigated and they could determine whether it was safe to return the children to their families, or not, Texas chose to protect the rights of the children to be protected from further abuse.
She was too young to give consent and the "marriage" was illegal, therefore, any sexual relations amounted to statutory rape.
I don't find it odd at all, however, that she didn't want to press charges against her husband. Maybe she felt that he was just as much a victim of this system of forced arranged marriages as she was.
Why are you defending the raping of children? Quite obviously, you're more concerned with defending these despicable practices, than you are with protecting the children from abuse.
The adults, as you pointed, have rights. The children don't. The search warrant was legal, and, when CPS had to make a choice between leaving the children in a potentially abusive system, or taking them into protective custody until the allegations of abuse had been investigated and they could determine whether it was safe to return the children to their families, or not, Texas chose to protect the rights of the children to be protected from further abuse.
Courageous Woman | 3:55 p.m. May 6, 2008
Carolyn Jessop has shown remarkable courage, not only in escaping from this
horrible leader, but in seeking to help others escape the clutches of Warren
Jeffs.
The FLDS people and their sympathizers here who are smearing the good name of this courageous woman, simply prove how despicable and corrupt some followers of Warren Jeffs have become under his leadership.
There is no justification for child rape.
The FLDS people and their sympathizers here who are smearing the good name of this courageous woman, simply prove how despicable and corrupt some followers of Warren Jeffs have become under his leadership.
There is no justification for child rape.
AZmale | 4:20 p.m. May 6, 2008
My expectation is that the children will remain in fostercare until identity and
parental rights are establish. Then, those who have committed crimes will be
prosecuted and those who have not will petition the court and their children
will be returned. I also expect that the state will continue to monitor these
families to insure the safety of the children.
As a father, I am saddened by the trauma done to both parents and children. I defend their right to believe what they will but not to coerse anyone to comply. I wish we all lived and practiced a higher level of morality, virtue and respect.
As a father, I am saddened by the trauma done to both parents and children. I defend their right to believe what they will but not to coerse anyone to comply. I wish we all lived and practiced a higher level of morality, virtue and respect.
Ginger Ann | 4:25 p.m. May 6, 2008
Carol Jessop, GREAT LADY!
We admire her for everything she has been through and for standing up for her family. She is a righteous woman and we admire her. May God bless her for coming forth.
We admire her for everything she has been through and for standing up for her family. She is a righteous woman and we admire her. May God bless her for coming forth.
An English onlooker | 4:28 p.m. May 6, 2008
It seems to me that the facts will all be proved in the DNA testing. All the
discussions on whether Carolyn Jessop is making it up or not should wait until
we have proof. Having read her book I hope with all my heart that she is
exagerating as what she reported (old men marrying young girls, violent and
brutal treatment of women, children and babies, parents being banished and
having their families taken from them and reassigned) was truely horrific. And,
US - if you have been letting this happen unchecked then you should really
relook at the balance between 'freedom' and 'the rights of
innocent children'.
Hypocrisy | 5:14 p.m. May 6, 2008
Am I the only one that finds the FLDS' hypocrisy rather ironic? They scream
persecution when CPS takes their children while they reassign wives and children
to different "husbands." They shield themeselves from a world they
label as immoral and then force 14 year old girls to get married and allow the
girls to be raped. They say they love their children and then abuse or allow
them to be abused. They paint themselves as honest, law-abiding citizens and
then lie about their names, ages, and committ wellfare fraud. They cry of false
pretense when they aquired YFZ Ranch/prison under false pretense. They seem
rather hypocrital, and we all know what Christ says about hypocrites.
wyogirl | 5:43 p.m. May 6, 2008
Good for Carolyn.
Justthefactsmaam: I want the facts too. So why don't those men stand up, defend themselves and take responsibility for their wives and children? Why does the state of Texas have to resort to DNA tests to determine who the children belong too? If the state had my kids I'd be fighting to get them back. My husband wouldn't be hiding behind my skirts telling me to switch the wrist bands. He would be providing evidence of his innocence. Only creeps run and hide when the light is turned on. Let us see the official birth certificates (required by law) and the marriage certificates - state issued or not. If you have a birth certificate it shouldn't be hard to prove the FACT that the girl was not underage when you impregnated her.
I want facts too, I just don't see many FLDS men willing to stand up and provide them.
Justthefactsmaam: I want the facts too. So why don't those men stand up, defend themselves and take responsibility for their wives and children? Why does the state of Texas have to resort to DNA tests to determine who the children belong too? If the state had my kids I'd be fighting to get them back. My husband wouldn't be hiding behind my skirts telling me to switch the wrist bands. He would be providing evidence of his innocence. Only creeps run and hide when the light is turned on. Let us see the official birth certificates (required by law) and the marriage certificates - state issued or not. If you have a birth certificate it shouldn't be hard to prove the FACT that the girl was not underage when you impregnated her.
I want facts too, I just don't see many FLDS men willing to stand up and provide them.
KPrice | 5:57 p.m. May 6, 2008
I was "taken" from my biological family when I was a young girl. It
was the single most saving event in my life. I had suffered years of abuse from
a "father" 12 years older than my mother. My mother choose to
"stand by her man" over protecting me. I thank those who intervened
to save me every single day. These children will now have an opportunity to
choose the life they desire. They will not have their spirits broken;their
minds numbed by constant destructive rhetoric meant only to serve the
selfishness and greed of men.
justthefactsmaam | 6:11 p.m. May 6, 2008
It's been quite evident from the very beginning that the pro-Texas side,
rabid foaming at the mouth lynch mob that they are, are woefully deficient when
it comes to ANY (or much) factual knowledge of this GENOCIDE.
599 DNA samples have been provided, WyoGirl.
Pay attention.
599 DNA samples have been provided, WyoGirl.
Pay attention.
justthefactsmaam | 6:28 p.m. May 6, 2008
KPrice | 5:57 p.m. May 6, 2008
I was "taken" from my biological family when I was a young girl. It was the single most saving event in my life. I had suffered years of abuse from a "father" 12 years older than my mother. My mother choose to "stand by her man" over protecting me. I thank those who intervened to save me every single day. These children will now have an opportunity to choose the life they desire. They will not have their spirits broken;their minds numbed by constant destructive rhetoric meant only to serve the selfishness and greed of men.
>>>I'm sorry for the sin for which you suffered but this has as much to do with the FLDS as green cheese on the moon.
Despite all of the LIES that have come out of the Texas "authorities" (bonegate where 8.8% lifetime bone breakage is considered EXEMPLARY, so low as to almost be UNBELIEVABLY low considering 50% average bone breakage by 18 and 15% average bone breakage by age 8, sodomy of young boys by older boys, etc) the ONE lie that they HAVEN'T made so far is what you describe above.
I was "taken" from my biological family when I was a young girl. It was the single most saving event in my life. I had suffered years of abuse from a "father" 12 years older than my mother. My mother choose to "stand by her man" over protecting me. I thank those who intervened to save me every single day. These children will now have an opportunity to choose the life they desire. They will not have their spirits broken;their minds numbed by constant destructive rhetoric meant only to serve the selfishness and greed of men.
>>>I'm sorry for the sin for which you suffered but this has as much to do with the FLDS as green cheese on the moon.
Despite all of the LIES that have come out of the Texas "authorities" (bonegate where 8.8% lifetime bone breakage is considered EXEMPLARY, so low as to almost be UNBELIEVABLY low considering 50% average bone breakage by 18 and 15% average bone breakage by age 8, sodomy of young boys by older boys, etc) the ONE lie that they HAVEN'T made so far is what you describe above.
justthefactsmaam | 6:46 p.m. May 6, 2008
Oh yeah!
He wasn't just a monogamist.
He was an Evangelical that went to church EVERY Sunday.
Not a Mormon.
A monogamist evangelical Sunday church goer just like the kind of people that these
KIDNAPPED CHILDREN
are heading for as soon as they start farming them out of the group homes.
You crazy women have
SENTENCED
some of these poor little pure virginal girls that would have NEVER been touched outside of a late teen marriage AT THE EARLIEST at YFZ by a loving husband that would CHERISH THEM FOR LIFE to be
CRUELLY SEXUALLY ABUSED
as young girls by the hands of some of these monogamist Sunday church goers Evangelical non-Mormon "men."
Just like the pathetic mess that my cousin married. I have family that won't even talk to him or even acknowledge his existence. In the Spirit of Chrisitan love, I talk to him just like anyone else to his face but I woulnd't let him come within 100 feet of your kids.
He wasn't just a monogamist.
He was an Evangelical that went to church EVERY Sunday.
Not a Mormon.
A monogamist evangelical Sunday church goer just like the kind of people that these
KIDNAPPED CHILDREN
are heading for as soon as they start farming them out of the group homes.
You crazy women have
SENTENCED
some of these poor little pure virginal girls that would have NEVER been touched outside of a late teen marriage AT THE EARLIEST at YFZ by a loving husband that would CHERISH THEM FOR LIFE to be
CRUELLY SEXUALLY ABUSED
as young girls by the hands of some of these monogamist Sunday church goers Evangelical non-Mormon "men."
Just like the pathetic mess that my cousin married. I have family that won't even talk to him or even acknowledge his existence. In the Spirit of Chrisitan love, I talk to him just like anyone else to his face but I woulnd't let him come within 100 feet of your kids.
Anonymous | 6:50 p.m. May 6, 2008
You can't actually take the average age of men and subtract the average age
of women and get AVERAGE AGE DIFFERENCE you know. Make up some numbers and try
it yourself. Whoever calculated the 7 years is likely wrong.
wyogirl | 7:05 p.m. May 6, 2008
DNA samples so that Texas even knows which kids belong to which parents. That
is my point - those Dads should be standing up, claiming their kids, claiming
their wives and honeys and proving that none of them are underage. Texas
shouldn't HAVE to have a court ORDER them to give DNA - they should be men
and stand up for their kids.
SJ Bobkins | 7:12 p.m. May 6, 2008
I think Carolyn has a selective memory. There were many under 18 marriages, and
that was well known outside the group even before the Jeff's (father and
son) came to power. The industries, candy making, and others connected with
construction were known to use forced non-paid employees in order to have cost
advantages over non-FLDS companies. Children's education excluded science,
Jeff's claimed that the space travel was fiction, and included the worst
type of racist ideas, such as Blacks not having souls, the same idea that
leading Methodists and Southern Baptists used to make the practice of slavery OK
in the 1700s and 1800s. The practice of riding the community of boys has always
been used to allow the older men multiple wives. The FLDS communities have
always been hostile to outsiders keeping them out while using the threats of
family loss and damnation to keep the flock inside.
Carolyn's memories of a happy little group prior to the latest' Jeff's seems to be what she sees behind rose colored glasses.
Carolyn's memories of a happy little group prior to the latest' Jeff's seems to be what she sees behind rose colored glasses.
Hey friend of carolyn's | 7:20 p.m. May 6, 2008
You claim that her children confirm her story, yet you fail to admit Betty her
own daughter after 5 years out of the FLDS returned and is living with another
"mother." Why did you forget such an important fact? Does Betty
admit abuse? Is Betty, now 19 married? Does abuse occur in monogamous homes?
Did she file abuse claims to the police, or is she content with just rumours?
She claims child abuse. Did she file request charges be filed? Regardless of
whether or not Merril visits, did the courts allow him visitation?
To put it into perspective, while Carolyn may indeed have been abused by her FLDS husband it does not mean that all FLDS men abuse all FLDS women. This is equal to all monogamous men do not abuse all monogamous women just because you know one that does. We must look at individuals especially when Carolyn herself admits individuality among the people with her prime example referring to the "red" revelation.
To put it into perspective, while Carolyn may indeed have been abused by her FLDS husband it does not mean that all FLDS men abuse all FLDS women. This is equal to all monogamous men do not abuse all monogamous women just because you know one that does. We must look at individuals especially when Carolyn herself admits individuality among the people with her prime example referring to the "red" revelation.
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Carolyn Jessop
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Monogamist FLDS woman: oh SAVE ME! SAVE ME! I'm 21 and my husband is 3 years older than me...
Plural Wife FLDS woman: oh SAVE ME! SAVE ME! I'm 31 and my husband is 7 years older than me!
For those that need glasses or Hooked on Phonics.
FLDS Monogamist marriages: men avg age 24, women 21
FLDS Polygamous marriages: men avg age 38, women 31
Are you still going to persist in your hysteria?
>>>Her and Flora's ENTIRE premise is that their is a "pervasive and systematic" system of child bride abuse going on in the FLDS.
Or do you not understand the dictionary definitions of "pervasive and systematic" and what the ABOVE MATHEMATICAL DATA does to that premise?