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Faith-based groups helping FLDS youths
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Red Texan | 12:42 a.m. May 5, 2008
Can't wait to wake up tomorrow and read about all the Baptist conspiracy
theories here. Nonetheless, I am grateful for these faith-based institutions
who are working hard to respect the faith of the children--sick as this cult is.
Texans are trying to do the right thing after UT & AZ have pretty much sat
around for years wringing their hands while children were abused and traded like
chatel. Go Texas.
gal50 | 1:01 a.m. May 5, 2008
This is a nicely written story and it seems the first one without judgment and
opinion. It simply presents the information without riling up its readers.
The FLDS thinks of itself as being like the original Mormons which would mean that it practices Christianity along with all of the Mormon additions.
However, many people are of the opinion that it has become cult-like, ditching its religious foundation and worshiping a living "spiritual leader."
This must make it difficult to provide religious content for the FLDS children. Should the content be aligned according to the dictates of a currently jailed leader or should it be aligned to the FLDS beliefs from past better times?
The FLDS thinks of itself as being like the original Mormons which would mean that it practices Christianity along with all of the Mormon additions.
However, many people are of the opinion that it has become cult-like, ditching its religious foundation and worshiping a living "spiritual leader."
This must make it difficult to provide religious content for the FLDS children. Should the content be aligned according to the dictates of a currently jailed leader or should it be aligned to the FLDS beliefs from past better times?
transplant | 1:42 a.m. May 5, 2008
It's so odd this concern with these children's religion. Children
don't have a religion. Adults make this choice. Those in faith based
facilities ought to be honest with the children in their care about having made
this adult choice for themselves and respect the children's freedom to
learn whether this is a choice for them when they are adults.
Comments continue below
Thomas | 2:20 a.m. May 5, 2008
Illegally detaining the FLDS children is not helping them.
transplant | 2:31 a.m. May 5, 2008
what happens to my comments? Again, referring to these children's religion
is a farce. Children have no religion. It is an adult choice in our society.
Alice | 3:22 a.m. May 5, 2008
Well, I for one am NOT happy with farming these children out to
"faith-based" groups. Do people actually believe that the Baptists
who are so hostile to the Salt Lake City Mormons will be understanding to the
children of the FLDS? The same Baptists that teach actual classes in their
churches on the evils of Mormons? Who preach against regular Mormons at their
conventions? Most Methodists and Catholics I have met do NOT spend a lot of
time and energy worrying about the LDS/Mormons, but to give the FLDS children to
the Baptists to "oversee" and expect them to not try to convert them
or to allow them to "practice their religion" is asking a lot.
Perhaps Texas needs to bring back state run orphanages, if it can't handle
it's childcare issues with using Churches.
How Christ-like! | 5:36 a.m. May 5, 2008
How wonderful it is to see that Christian groups are jumping in to help. How
much better would it have been to have seen the LDS Church involved and helping
instead of trying to distance themselves from an organisation with similar
beliefs and background! Imagine, simply helping without worrying about what it
looks like in the press............ A dream I guess!
DEEPLY CONCERNED | 5:41 a.m. May 5, 2008
Did The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints participate in the
effort?
We certainly have more in common with the families from the YFZ compound than populations in Africa, Asia and South America, etc.
DOES ANYONE KNOW?
We certainly have more in common with the families from the YFZ compound than populations in Africa, Asia and South America, etc.
DOES ANYONE KNOW?
Pat | 6:32 a.m. May 5, 2008
Regardless of what is expected of those caring for these children of FLDS, they
will be influenced out of their parents` beliefs and into the beliefs of those
now caring for them. It is impossible to live in a home and not influence
children there INTO your own belief system. It is your belief system because you
BELIEVE IT. You cannot live in a home without LIVING and talking your BELIEFS.
what a fake way of "living" that would be!
The point is that these children in foster care had to be removed from harmful, illegal practices (using young girls as "tickets" to a patriarchal advancement in the future "kingdom" through producing as many followers as possible and other abusive "beliefs".
The FLDS hasn`t yet caught on that Christ, our Savior and teacher taught us that you can and should suffer for your beliefs, but you are NOT to make OTHERS (not even your wives nor children) SUFFER! Choose your own suffering path if you must or want, but DO NOT make or allow others to suffer for YOUR benefit! That is exactly what FLDS men do.
The point is that these children in foster care had to be removed from harmful, illegal practices (using young girls as "tickets" to a patriarchal advancement in the future "kingdom" through producing as many followers as possible and other abusive "beliefs".
The FLDS hasn`t yet caught on that Christ, our Savior and teacher taught us that you can and should suffer for your beliefs, but you are NOT to make OTHERS (not even your wives nor children) SUFFER! Choose your own suffering path if you must or want, but DO NOT make or allow others to suffer for YOUR benefit! That is exactly what FLDS men do.
Anonymous | 7:22 a.m. May 5, 2008
I see these so called faith based organisations, no matter what situation they
respond to, as opportunists, salesmen and carpet baggers. I know it seems
cynical but to me, that's all they are, taking advantage of the situation
to recruit others, with assistance that isn't 'unconditional'.
These kids need to recover and find their own way, not escape the prison only to
be detained by a different faction.
T-EXpatriate MIdwesterner | 7:46 a.m. May 5, 2008
To Mr. Red Texan: If you are truly a son of the south, then you must know of the
extreme animosity that many Southern protestant faiths have towards LDS members.
That prejudice is something that I experienced first hand, many times. I can
only imagine how they behave towards the FLDS people. Conspiracy or not,
I'm sure that there are many who are licking their chops to
"save" these children from their upbringing. The Deseret News even
posted an article about a former FLDS Baptist woman who was going to try and
adopt as many of the FLDS children as she could in order to save their souls,
which should not be the agenda of CPS. As for whether or not these groups are
"working hard," or only chasing that "faith-based
initiative" government dollar, only time will tell. I only hope that the
court system in Texas becomes more open-minded than I've seen thus far.
Prejudice is ugly, regardless of who is the target.
Texan at heart | 7:50 a.m. May 5, 2008
Texas has a great state government. Their schooling, standards, and compassion
for everyone is noteworthy. They have a great get-it-done attitude and perhaps
they stretched constitutional issues here in the raid which will be dealth with
but in the end the children will be protected.
wrz | 8:07 a.m. May 5, 2008
>>"We have long had the belief in CPS that children and families
should be allowed to worship freely. ... We never try to impart our views on the
children and families that we serve," said CPS spokeswoman Marleigh
Meisner.<<
Worship freely? How can these children know how to worship freely? Children learn religion from their parents or other adults under who's control they find themselves.
I think the Baptists have just acquired themselves another recruiting methodology.
Worship freely? How can these children know how to worship freely? Children learn religion from their parents or other adults under who's control they find themselves.
I think the Baptists have just acquired themselves another recruiting methodology.
Thomas | 8:09 a.m. May 5, 2008
Pat you are so off-base. The evidence clearly shows that there are few if any
child brides. The proof of this is CPS Is idenifying these young women as
underage by their appeareance. They do this because they have no better
evidence.
transplant | 8:12 a.m. May 5, 2008
Everybody in Texas is not christian. Many many of us are not affiliated with
any religion. We jump to help because we are human. Helping each other in times
of crisis is what the human family does. Some people somewhere in this country
may withhold help because of their religious beliefs. I don't experience
Americans of any stripe that way. There's a need we step up. It would be
the same if we were all atheists.
Chief | 8:17 a.m. May 5, 2008
So what! It was still usurpation of authority by the State of Texas that
necessitated the use of the "faith-based" organizations. What will you
do when they come for your children or grandchildren?
Beth from TX | 8:27 a.m. May 5, 2008
Those who make blanket accusations that all Baptists are hostile towards Mormons
are just as bad as the people who think all Mormons are polygamists. People need
to stop making generalizations based on religion. I grew up in Houston and the
Baptists churches had a presence in the public schools that I was uncomfortable
with. But that does not make all the organizations bad or all Baptists bad
people. Many of them just want to do what's right to help others and we
should allow them that opportunity.
Whether or not these children have an actual religion separate from what the adults have "Forced" on them, I agree with the judge's degree that they be allowed to worship in a way that makes them comfortable. They'll change if and when they are ready.
Whether or not these children have an actual religion separate from what the adults have "Forced" on them, I agree with the judge's degree that they be allowed to worship in a way that makes them comfortable. They'll change if and when they are ready.
Christ-like Love | 8:30 a.m. May 5, 2008
I see most of the faith-based foster care organizations as exemplifying true
Christ-like love. True, most of them would like to instill some of their
religious values in the children they care for and there are probably few
zealots who see these children as a golden opportunity to make converts, but for
the most part, their first priorty is providing loving care for displaced
children.
As long as the people within these organizations respect the rights of these children to practice their religion and they are not actively witnessing or recruiting these children, I see nothing wrong with having these children being cared for by a loving, faith-based organization.
As long as the people within these organizations respect the rights of these children to practice their religion and they are not actively witnessing or recruiting these children, I see nothing wrong with having these children being cared for by a loving, faith-based organization.
Re: Thomas | 9:01 a.m. May 5, 2008
"The evidence clearly shows that there are few if any child
brides."
It's people like you who make it hard to believe anything the FLDS have to say.
It's people like you who make it hard to believe anything the FLDS have to say.
HeatherD | 9:21 a.m. May 5, 2008
Oh, how sweet. One indoctrination to another.
transplant and How Christ-like? | 9:25 a.m. May 5, 2008
transplant: "Children do not have religion." What planet did you come
from? Of course they do. I guess if you are speaking of very very young barely
walking babes...they may not yet have a voice, but children do have religion.
It's what they learn from being brought up in good Christian value homes.
Believe it or not, most children are pretty smart and feel the spirit of Christ
in their lives...many adults lack this quality. But, to say that Children have
no religion...what an ignorant remark. Many children who have a religion they
call their own...not only learn at the feet of their parents, but find out for
themselves at a young age that they love the religion they belong to.
FLDS...That's a hard one to pin-point...but if this is all they were
brought up on an all that they know...well enough said...you make it sound like
no child has the sense to feel the spirit and love their church or
religion...
And to How Christ-like...your comments are far from you name. The LDS are simply not going to step in and become watch dogs and monitor prayers...get over yourself and quit being so judgmental.
Talk about running lives!
And to How Christ-like...your comments are far from you name. The LDS are simply not going to step in and become watch dogs and monitor prayers...get over yourself and quit being so judgmental.
Talk about running lives!
BobP | 10:01 a.m. May 5, 2008
I doubt the LDS church is invloved in any faith based initiatives that invlove
recieving money and directions from government sources. We tend to shy away
from those.
wrz | 10:04 a.m. May 5, 2008
>>Texas has a great state government. Their schooling, standards, and
compassion for everyone is noteworthy. They have a great get-it-done attitude
and perhaps they stretched constitutional issues here in the raid which will be
dealth with but in the end the children will be protected.<<
Stretched Constitutional issues??? They broke them. Stood them on their heads.
I've often wondered how the religion provisions of the First Amendment could ever possibly be violated. I don't have to wonder anymore. We've seen it first-hand in Texas. Who would have known that an innocent government agency such as CPS would have such power?
Many would say that Baptist or Catholic children need to be rescued from the teachings of those churches. But would anyone dare to go in and rip those children from their mothers' arms violating their First Amendment rights? But, apparently the FLDS Church is fair game for this.
Stretched Constitutional issues??? They broke them. Stood them on their heads.
I've often wondered how the religion provisions of the First Amendment could ever possibly be violated. I don't have to wonder anymore. We've seen it first-hand in Texas. Who would have known that an innocent government agency such as CPS would have such power?
Many would say that Baptist or Catholic children need to be rescued from the teachings of those churches. But would anyone dare to go in and rip those children from their mothers' arms violating their First Amendment rights? But, apparently the FLDS Church is fair game for this.
Bruce | 10:06 a.m. May 5, 2008
The LDS church was quick to run to hurricane-ravaged New Orleans, a
predominantly Baptist area to help. It made great news copy. Now people in a
religion that share common history, the same basic scriptures, etc. need help
and they seem to be more interested in distancing themselves from them to
protect some public image than in actually helping innocent children.
What's the church doing here? Warming the bleachers? Letting the Baptists handle it?
I really take issue with the p.c. term "faith based organization". Is that a buzzword to make us feel warm and fuzzy about any organization that uses it? Heck, Al Queda is a "faith based organization".
That's pretty meaningless IMHO.
What's the church doing here? Warming the bleachers? Letting the Baptists handle it?
I really take issue with the p.c. term "faith based organization". Is that a buzzword to make us feel warm and fuzzy about any organization that uses it? Heck, Al Queda is a "faith based organization".
That's pretty meaningless IMHO.
Re: wrz | 10:16 a.m. May 5, 2008
"Many would say that Baptist or Catholic children need to be rescued from
the teachings of those churches. But would anyone dare to go in and rip those
children from their mothers' arms violating their First Amendment
rights?"
Nice strawman, but you conveniently ignored the most important difference. The Catholics or Baptists aren't practicing systematic rape of underaged girls through forced, illegal marriages.
Nice strawman, but you conveniently ignored the most important difference. The Catholics or Baptists aren't practicing systematic rape of underaged girls through forced, illegal marriages.
To Red Texan | 10:25 a.m. May 5, 2008
Hang in there. I too am one of those blankety blank Texans. I thought the
comments regarding the Baptists buses that were used to transport the kids were
hilarious. I don't think that anyone took the time to find out that they
were used because the Baptist church is the largest in Eldorado and as a result,
their buses were the only ones that were big enough to transport that many kids.
No one seemed to care that the other buses had "Red Carpet" on the
sides in red letters of all things!!!!! I guess that they could have made
banners to cover the "Baptist" on the buses. But I don't think
that "KKK" or "Skinheads" would have been appropriate
either.
Re: Bruce | 10:30 a.m. May 5, 2008
Excuse me Bruce, but why would the LDS church, or any church for that matter,
want to help the FLDS defend their "right" to abuse their children?
If CPS needs more foster care families, I'm sure there are many good, loving LDS families who would be more than willing to help care for the displaced FLDS children.
The LDS church has appropriately distanced itself from the misguided teachings and practices of the FLDS. There's no shame in not wanting to be associated with beliefs that include child rape.
If the newsmedia was mis-identifying the FLDS as fundamentalist Baptists or Catholics, those churches would be responding in the same manner as the LDS church has done.
If CPS needs more foster care families, I'm sure there are many good, loving LDS families who would be more than willing to help care for the displaced FLDS children.
The LDS church has appropriately distanced itself from the misguided teachings and practices of the FLDS. There's no shame in not wanting to be associated with beliefs that include child rape.
If the newsmedia was mis-identifying the FLDS as fundamentalist Baptists or Catholics, those churches would be responding in the same manner as the LDS church has done.
Alice | 10:48 a.m. May 5, 2008
Re: BethfromTX - I am NOT making generalizations about Baptists. I was RAISED
Southern Baptist. We had classes about how evil Mormons were in our Churches -
and not just one Baptist Church. When I lived in TN we organized with the other
Baptists churches around to try to keep Mormons from building their temple
there. They were discussed and plotted against at all the last Southern
Baptists Conventions I attended, up until I had enough and left the church a few
years ago. I refuse to be a part of a religion that spends so much time
harassing another religion. In my case, their whole anti-Mormon stance
CONVERTED me to LEAVE them. Yes, I KNOW there are kind and wonderful members
that are Baptists. I am speaking to the mindset of the Leaders of the Southern
Baptists, which I am ashamed of.
Faith-based Charities | 10:52 a.m. May 5, 2008
I don't know if my example applies but I work on my company's
charitable giving committee. We are not allowed to donate to organizations that
promote "faith-based" principles. Doing research I was amazed at how
many large and familiar charities are faith-based, especially when dealing with
families. There is no way you could ask for help on the scale Texas needs and
not involve faith-based organizations.
Stan | 10:58 a.m. May 5, 2008
My opinion-- No religion whatsoever should be preached to these FLDS kids. They
need to be free of any religious harping or brainwashing tactics at this point,
so someday they may make choices on their own and for themselves. These kids
need only to be treated fairly, kindly and that is about it. Quit trying to push
religion down the throats of others. It will eventually backfire on all of you.
Most religions nowadays are bigoted, angry, arrogant organizations, and not much
to do from what I can see with any true loving God.
Denise | 10:57 a.m. May 5, 2008
Pat, you are just fooling yourself if you believe "caring for these
children of FLDS, they will be influenced out of their parents` beliefs and into
the beliefs of those now caring for them. It is impossible to live in a home and
not influence children there INTO your own belief system."
The roots of the FLDS belief system runs deep. Oh, yes, the babies and the small children will be converted. I am an old woman and I was living in Arizona during the Short Creek Raid of 1953. In that raid over 400 people were taken into custody - over 200 children. Only a few children were ever returned to their parents. But guess what? ALL the adults went back. The adolescent children WENT BACK as soon as they could leave State custody. NO matter what people think, you are NOT rescuing them from their religion. This religion survived the Short Creek Raid and will survive this raid. What is needed is PUNISHMENT to prevent the abuses - underage marriage, boys forced to leave home before age 17-18, child labor, etc. And oh, yes - living with more than one woman is NOT against the law.
The roots of the FLDS belief system runs deep. Oh, yes, the babies and the small children will be converted. I am an old woman and I was living in Arizona during the Short Creek Raid of 1953. In that raid over 400 people were taken into custody - over 200 children. Only a few children were ever returned to their parents. But guess what? ALL the adults went back. The adolescent children WENT BACK as soon as they could leave State custody. NO matter what people think, you are NOT rescuing them from their religion. This religion survived the Short Creek Raid and will survive this raid. What is needed is PUNISHMENT to prevent the abuses - underage marriage, boys forced to leave home before age 17-18, child labor, etc. And oh, yes - living with more than one woman is NOT against the law.
Bruce | 11:12 a.m. May 5, 2008
"the LDS church has appropriately distanced itself from the misguided
teachings and practices of the FLDS."
OK. But is it appropriate to distance itself from children who could have used their help if they would have stepped forward early with half the enthusiasm demonstrated in New Orleans?
The result: the children are now in the Texas foster care system that in 2006 alone had 63 reported cases of child rape, among other attrocities.
I suppose that as long as the good loving LDS families aren't associated with "beliefs that include child rape" (I'd love to see that doctrine) that it's ok.
OK. But is it appropriate to distance itself from children who could have used their help if they would have stepped forward early with half the enthusiasm demonstrated in New Orleans?
The result: the children are now in the Texas foster care system that in 2006 alone had 63 reported cases of child rape, among other attrocities.
I suppose that as long as the good loving LDS families aren't associated with "beliefs that include child rape" (I'd love to see that doctrine) that it's ok.
SLC Resident | 11:25 a.m. May 5, 2008
Why doesn't the "LDS" Church step in and provide aid for these
people?? You would think that would be an easy fit since they (LDS) have more in
common with them (FLDS) than anybody else in world. Everybody is too concerned
that these kids will actually learn what "reality" is! I say let the
kids decide for themselves if they want to partake in religion or not. Going
from one oppressive environment to another isn't going to help them at all.
Charles | 11:37 a.m. May 5, 2008
It,s too late now to worry about if they will be able to worship as they use to,
and nobody will know if the FLDS are worshiping their way. It,s a sad day in
texas. Are the FLDS able to return to their Temple, I don,t think so. Does texas
know how important it is to go to the Temple? If the FLDS can,t go to their
Temple than they are not worshiping like they where at the Ranch. Shame on
texas. Freedom to worship, the US Consittution, read it.
Re: SLC Resident | 11:50 a.m. May 5, 2008
"Going from one oppressive environment to another isn't going to help
them at all."
Do you consider teaching children correct principles and then giving them the freedom to govern themselves is oppressive?
Do you believe that churches have no moral authority or responsiblity to speak out on moral issues that affect society?
You may not agree with all of the beliefs taught by the LDS church, but THE core belief taught by the LDS church is agency, the right to choose for yourself.
Forcing a young underaged girl into a pre-arranged marriage violates the very core of the LDS beliefs.
Do you consider teaching children correct principles and then giving them the freedom to govern themselves is oppressive?
Do you believe that churches have no moral authority or responsiblity to speak out on moral issues that affect society?
You may not agree with all of the beliefs taught by the LDS church, but THE core belief taught by the LDS church is agency, the right to choose for yourself.
Forcing a young underaged girl into a pre-arranged marriage violates the very core of the LDS beliefs.
G | 11:51 a.m. May 5, 2008
Isn't placing CPS kids in faith-based charities a constitutional issue?
Muslims wouldn't tolerate it.
Abe | 12:10 p.m. May 5, 2008
What about the separation of cult and state?
Shem | 12:40 p.m. May 5, 2008
Are any of the "faith based" programs, based in the Jewish faith or
the Muslim faith?
Johnson | 12:47 p.m. May 5, 2008
Heck Texas is the hub of justice. No problem. How many convictions overturned
after the prisoners have served 20 years. They know how to withhold evidence
when its not convienant. We even have a president from that state. Enough
said.
Lets face it, Texas is a basket case.
Lets face it, Texas is a basket case.
Faith Based | 12:52 p.m. May 5, 2008
It's great to see that the faith based churches are helping out. These
people are called Christians, being "Christ like". Christ loves us
unconditionally; we should love one another unconditionally. This is where the
Morman church fails. If they were a faith based group, they would be helping
right along with the other churches. For a group that spends so much time trying
to look and talk like a Christian, they miss the mark by not helping their
fellow Morman brothers and sisters.
transplant | 1:33 p.m. May 5, 2008
Sorry Charlie, children don't have the reasoning capability to have
religious beliefs. They do internalize their caregivers, usually parents, value
system. Only educated adults are prepared to select an institution which fits
their life. Like marriage the very issue we are dealing with in Texas.
Children, even as old as 16, cannot make the adult choice of participating in
the instituion of marriage. They are not mature enough or knowledgable enough.
By the by. Hypothetically if all the children now in faith-based facilities
'converted' that would be a choice. They could always make another
choice. To believe or not believe is always a choice in our free society. An
adult choice.
Re: Faith Based | 1:43 p.m. May 5, 2008
The LDS church declined to be spies for the Texas court in monitoring FLDS
prayers, but I'm very sure LDS social services would be more than willing
to help place ALL of these children with caring, LDS families.
But, that's really not what you want, is it?
But, that's really not what you want, is it?
wrz | 1:47 p.m. May 5, 2008
>>Nice strawman, but you conveniently ignored the most important
difference. The Catholics or Baptists aren't practicing systematic rape of
underaged girls through forced, illegal marriages.<<
Whether the FLDS is practicing systematic rape of underage children is your opinion. Nothing has been proved in a court of law at this point.
Further, just 2 1/2 years ago Texas allowed 14 (and in some cases 13) year old girls to marry and have kids. Would call that instituted policy rape?
PS: Texas changed the age of allowable marriage to get at the FLSD when they came to town.
PSS: I wouldn't be surprised if any marriage laws/restrictions were eventually found unconstitutional. I fully expect to see, in the next few years, homosexual marriages made legal.
Whether the FLDS is practicing systematic rape of underage children is your opinion. Nothing has been proved in a court of law at this point.
Further, just 2 1/2 years ago Texas allowed 14 (and in some cases 13) year old girls to marry and have kids. Would call that instituted policy rape?
PS: Texas changed the age of allowable marriage to get at the FLSD when they came to town.
PSS: I wouldn't be surprised if any marriage laws/restrictions were eventually found unconstitutional. I fully expect to see, in the next few years, homosexual marriages made legal.
Jeffery | 1:54 p.m. May 5, 2008
Faith Based
FLD is not part of the LDS church. The FLDS kids need to be in good homes who don't preach religion to them. Actually, these kids need to be deprogrammed and not fed a lot of religious lies. I think they need a break from all that sort of gibberish. Good morals, righteous living, learning right from wrong can be taught without throwing in all the religion to confuse them more than what they already are.
FLD is not part of the LDS church. The FLDS kids need to be in good homes who don't preach religion to them. Actually, these kids need to be deprogrammed and not fed a lot of religious lies. I think they need a break from all that sort of gibberish. Good morals, righteous living, learning right from wrong can be taught without throwing in all the religion to confuse them more than what they already are.
porky | 2:12 p.m. May 5, 2008
fat chance (or even slim chance) that down in the bible belt these children who
have been ripped from their parents and siblings will be allowed to practice
their religion.
Re: wrz | 2:30 p.m. May 5, 2008
"Further, just 2 1/2 years ago Texas allowed 14 (and in some cases 13) year
old girls to marry and have kids. Would call that instituted policy
rape?"
Do you ignore new laws that you don't agree with simply because "that" used to be legal?
What part of statutory rape don't you understand?
If a girl is too young to give consent, even if there was an illegal "spiritual" marriage performed, it's still statutory rape.
Warren Jeffs, the FLDS leader has already been convicted in Utah of rape by accomplice for performing such a marriage and he faces similar charges in Arizona. There have been numerous other convictions and reports from former FLDS members that forced underage marriage is a common practice.
If you want to bury you head in the sand and ignore all of the evidence until it is proven in a court of law, that's your choice, but the CPS had ample evidence to suspect this was happening, which is why they took the FLDS kids into protective custody.
Do you ignore new laws that you don't agree with simply because "that" used to be legal?
What part of statutory rape don't you understand?
If a girl is too young to give consent, even if there was an illegal "spiritual" marriage performed, it's still statutory rape.
Warren Jeffs, the FLDS leader has already been convicted in Utah of rape by accomplice for performing such a marriage and he faces similar charges in Arizona. There have been numerous other convictions and reports from former FLDS members that forced underage marriage is a common practice.
If you want to bury you head in the sand and ignore all of the evidence until it is proven in a court of law, that's your choice, but the CPS had ample evidence to suspect this was happening, which is why they took the FLDS kids into protective custody.
State custody = church custody? | 2:48 p.m. May 5, 2008
People think there is a lack of seperation of church and state in Utah...
Doesn't anyone see a problem with faith based organizations being tightly
coupled with Texas CPS?
Kids in "State custody" should NOT be in the custody of any church group.
I don't mind if people of faith voulunteer to be foster parents, but the State CPS should not be run by or connected to any faith based organization. CPS is a STATE/Government organization. It can't be a front or suragate for these faith based groups. They need to be completely seperate (even if it is more convenient for the state to just turn these kids over to these church groups).
We can not let "State Custody" = "Church Custody". It's unconstitutional for the state to sponser religious endoctrination/re-education of these kids while in "State Custody" (regardless of their faith).
Kids in "State custody" should NOT be in the custody of any church group.
I don't mind if people of faith voulunteer to be foster parents, but the State CPS should not be run by or connected to any faith based organization. CPS is a STATE/Government organization. It can't be a front or suragate for these faith based groups. They need to be completely seperate (even if it is more convenient for the state to just turn these kids over to these church groups).
We can not let "State Custody" = "Church Custody". It's unconstitutional for the state to sponser religious endoctrination/re-education of these kids while in "State Custody" (regardless of their faith).
G | 3:14 p.m. May 5, 2008
"People think there is a lack of seperation of church and state in Utah...
Doesn't anyone see a problem with faith based organizations being tightly
coupled with Texas CPS?"
This whole thing would be less controversial if it happened in Utah.
This whole thing would be less controversial if it happened in Utah.
RE:Alice | 3:44 p.m. May 5, 2008
How ironic; your church didn't want to get within ten-miles of them, as
they were worried about 'public perceptions', nothing more than public
relations. You seemingly have no problem with that.
On the other hand, you are outraged that -gasp- Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, and other denominations that love Jesus Christ are ready and willing to help out where your church was not; in spite of the oft-repeated mantra here and elsewhere "we must be true, we're always the first to help EVERYBODY!"
Why would you fear these children hearing the gospel from other Christians? Afterall, I see LDS folks here constantly complaining that they are Christians just like everybody else, dang it! If they are indeed Christians just like everybody else, then they surely won't mind Christians taking in these children to help them.
May the Lord bless us with wisdom and understanding.
On the other hand, you are outraged that -gasp- Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, and other denominations that love Jesus Christ are ready and willing to help out where your church was not; in spite of the oft-repeated mantra here and elsewhere "we must be true, we're always the first to help EVERYBODY!"
Why would you fear these children hearing the gospel from other Christians? Afterall, I see LDS folks here constantly complaining that they are Christians just like everybody else, dang it! If they are indeed Christians just like everybody else, then they surely won't mind Christians taking in these children to help them.
May the Lord bless us with wisdom and understanding.
DC | 3:47 p.m. May 5, 2008
To Re: wrz
"Do you ignore new laws that you don't agree with simply because 'that' used to be legal?"
No, of course not, but there is a disturbing wrinkle in the Texas situation. So far, the only thing Texas is actually alleging is that there appear to be about 4 pregnant girls who are 16 and 17. While Texas recently changed its law that allowed 13 and 14 year olds to marry, it *remains* legal in Texas to marry and have children at 16 with nothing more than your parents' permission. Not what I would want for my daughter, but it's OK in Texas. So if these girls are in fact 16 (which isn't clear), the only reason these relationships are statutory rape is because Texas outlaws polygamy. It is not about protecting children or punishing rape because these relationships would be fine under Texas law if they were monogamous. It is about these people's religion. I dislike the FLDS religion, but I dislike even more backwoods Baptist bigots spouting juvenile slogans like "Don't mess with Texas" or "God bless Texas" while they steamroller over these peoples' rights claiming they are "only protecting the kids".
"Do you ignore new laws that you don't agree with simply because 'that' used to be legal?"
No, of course not, but there is a disturbing wrinkle in the Texas situation. So far, the only thing Texas is actually alleging is that there appear to be about 4 pregnant girls who are 16 and 17. While Texas recently changed its law that allowed 13 and 14 year olds to marry, it *remains* legal in Texas to marry and have children at 16 with nothing more than your parents' permission. Not what I would want for my daughter, but it's OK in Texas. So if these girls are in fact 16 (which isn't clear), the only reason these relationships are statutory rape is because Texas outlaws polygamy. It is not about protecting children or punishing rape because these relationships would be fine under Texas law if they were monogamous. It is about these people's religion. I dislike the FLDS religion, but I dislike even more backwoods Baptist bigots spouting juvenile slogans like "Don't mess with Texas" or "God bless Texas" while they steamroller over these peoples' rights claiming they are "only protecting the kids".
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