Comments about ‘Catholics told not to give LDS parish data’

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Published: Sunday, May 4 2008 12:30 a.m. MDT

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I'm LDS

When my family was attempting to sell our home, my mother's Catholic Co-Worker asked is she might bury a statue of a Catholic Saint in our front yard and perform a prayer. Though I had reservations on the matter, my insightful mother agreed to let her. Their friendship has never been stronger and our beliefs were not compromised by her actions. Also, our house did sell.

I guess my point is this: The Catholic Church has taken an action on a universal level. Let's take our own action at a personal level and show love and understanding to our Catholic brothers and sisters.

Don't worry, it'll be fine

The Catholics don't want us to see their records, and they'll probably try to impose some system whereby they'll discover our Mormonness and exclude us from using their records to further our genealogical research.

If the work is meant to be done, it will be done. There will be a way around this and any other roadblock that may come along.

The commandment to perform these ordinances for our family members came along just a few years after the Church was restored. The early Church members didn't have cars, computers, telephones, Internet, pedigree charts or family group sheets, but they went ahead and did what they were asked. With all the developments that have come about since then, I doubt the Roman Catholic Church's latest edict will be able to put a dent in our temple work.

Let's not spend time worrying or bickering. Let's just get busy instead. We still have a lot to do!

Thanks a lot

Just a word of thanks to my *fellow LDS* who have commented with such anger and disrespect toward the Catholic Church. You have made my friendships with my Catholic friends more comfortable today. No. Think again. Today they are asking me if I truly accept them as they are or if I have an agenda percolating somewhere to "save them." The more I read the words of self-names active LDS on these comment boards, the more I reconsider the beneficial effects of the LDS faith. As of today, I'm sure I will be walking out the door of this religion as the goodness of the works of the people was the last thing I was clinging to in order to feel good about belonging.

G

"Absolutely and rightfully so. And it is a Mormon problem, not a Catholic problem. "

Why should Mormons try to appease anyone else?

Supportive

This comment board is a very good example of begging the question "why on earth would anyone wish to live all eternity linked to everyone else?" I'd much prefer my own wee piece of the universe in a galaxy far, far away.

Alex

Pretend:

"I would not expect the Church to cooperate with pagans either, so why with LDS church henotheists? "

Simple: because the Catholic Church has cooperated with the LDS Church for a long time. Look, this work for the dead and genealogical work using Catholic records has been going on for a long time. Over these many years, it is not as if the Catholic Church didn't know what we were doing. Come on. So many posters here act surprised as if the Catholic Church had been hoodwinked by the LDS Church. The Catholic Church knows full well and has known for a long time that we do work for the dead.

This has been a cooperative effort: you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. They allow us access to these old records, and we provide them and the public with these records of the dead (microfilm and online). We in turn use them in our temples. It has been a mutually beneficial relationship.

Naturally, it is the Catholic Church's right to cease that practice. Remember though, they are doing so after benefiting greatly from the LDS Church's genealogical work for their benefit.

By the way, Catholics are my friends.

Thomas

Nobody's asking the Catholic Church to "cooperate" with the Mormon practice of baptism for the dead. Everybody knows that the Catholic Church disagrees with the practice. All that Mormons are asking is to have the same access to Catholic records as anyone else.

It is gallingly hypocritical for the Catholic Church to argue that giving Mormons equal access to parish records -- without endorsing what Mormons do with them -- constitutes "cooperation" with an allegedly heretical practice, when the Church employs professors at Catholic universities who support abortion, or otherwise teach in direct opposition to the Magisterium of the Church.

The Church thus gets to buy doctrinal rigor on the cheap, taking shots at an unpopular sect, while declining to cease its much more direct endorsement of heterodox ideologies by allowing them to be taught at its own universities.

Clearly, the Church is far more concerned with making friends with modern secular culture than with the Mormons, with whom -- doctrinal differences aside -- they share a much more consistent basic worldview.

Cheap and shabby, I still say, and unworthy of the Church's great traditions.



Ethicist

"They [Catholics] allow us access to these old records, and we [LDS] provide them and the public with these records of the dead (microfilm and online)."

A Faustian bargain, indeed!

The Pope and the Catholic Church are simply doing what they are obliged to do by their religious beliefs. Ever notice that the Pope carries a shepherd's crook? That's because as the shepherd of the Roman Catholic Church, his duty is to care for his flock. If he allowed the members of his flock to be unwillingly submitted to acts considered heretical by the RC Church (i.e., temple ordinances) he would be derelict in his duty to care for his flock. Thus, by the belief system of the Catholic Church, he is obliged to try to put a stop to the posthumous baptism heresy applied to his members.

He is doing what he considers to be theologically, morally, and spiritually correct. Can't fault someone for living up to his principles.

To thanks alot

Are you serious? You're stating all your Catholic friends are on this board and now are questioning your motives as a friend?

Why don't you look at it a little differently than the sad eyes you are currently using....

Why not look at this as a chance to enhance your friendship and teach them about the gospel principle of baptisms for the dead? I think I'd turn this into a chance to enhance my dialogue with them.

Take this chance to deepen your testimony instead of looking for some easy way out of whatever issues you have going on....

It's not a show stopper but a friendship enhancer....Go for it!

Melissa

I guess it's the "grave reservations" part that has everyone up in arms... I can't figure out why people outside of any church would think they should just be handed information about a church's members... sounds like privacy violations to me. I mean when you think about it, with all the identity theft going on these days?

Alex

Melissa:

"I guess it's the "grave reservations" part that has everyone up in arms... I can't figure out why people outside of any church would think they should just be handed information about a church's members..."

I can. The Catholic Church handed it out themselves.

"...sounds like privacy violations to me. I mean when you think about it, with all the identity theft going on these days? "

Except there is neither theft nor any privacy violation here. How could there be if the Catholic Church allowed access from the beginning? At any rate, all of the records are of dead people, many of whom have been so for hundreds of years. None of them are living. These records have been available to the public if they want to go in and look at them. Now with this edict, they are now available to the public, minus the LDS Church. Fortunately, a good portion of the records have already been documented.

To: Alex

"Fortunately, a good portion of the records have already been documented."

Are you implying that if I object to my deceased Parents (Catholic Faith) being (possibly) posthumously baptized into some sort of LDS framework of beliefs because I find the act dissrespectful at the very least ... are you saying that I don't have a leg to stand on? ... just to be clear sir.

Mick

No one should take offense here. Just because someone doesn't agree with our faith, or doesn't desire to release records, should not anger us. We just have to remember the perspective they are coming from. No offense, just personal misunderstanding, or purposeful denial.

The sad part is when we as Mormons become offended, bitter, and make derogatory comments towards the Pope, or any other leader for that matter. We only rise above the level of others when our actions actually show that we live what we speak. Until that time, we are no better than those we decry.

To: Mick

"The sad part is when we as Mormons become offended, bitter, and make derogatory comments towards the Pope, or any other leader for that matter. We only rise above the level of others when our actions actually show that we live what we speak. Until that time, we are no better than those we decry."
-----------

I find your comments facinating (i'm the author of: "To Alex") I realize that you are devout (LDS version of devout), but please carefully reread your comments. It sounds like a barely cloaked jab at those of another faith. That is: if you live the LDS faith, then you ARE better then those that don't. If after closely considering this possible interpretation, do you see how your words seem no better than those of whom you counsel, at least to an outsider such as myself?

Mohan

None of us have the superiority we think we have. We are all off one flesh. We are all in need. We are all dependent on God. Let us treat each and every one as a son or daughter of God, as a beloved brother or sister. Let disrespect be far from us.

I am sure the Catholic Church will soon realize the effect of their pronouncement and when they better understand what they are doing in the great scheme of things, they will again allow Mormon volunteers in assit them by photographing all their vital records. The service rendered by the LDS in this regard is a God send. May we all realize the connections we have with each other.

RE: To: Alex | 1:19 p.m


Here's your answer:

From: Letters jtnews.net
Note the date....March 1, 2008

>>[Mark] Paredes stated that Church rules make it clear that a person who adds a name to the baptism rolls must be able to prove that they are related...True. But it is also true that this rule, along with many other rules, are ignored by individual Mormons... For example, there is a rule that you cannot posthumously baptize any person who was born within the past 95 years without permission of the closest relative. Yet Anne Frank was baptized six times. There is a rule that you should baptize only relatives, not famous people, yet Simon Wiesenthal was recently cleared for baptism....Paredes states that a Mormon is permitted to perform ordinances on any relative...True. But the 1995 agreement with the Jewish organization specifically limits it to direct ancestors. The Church has not enforced this rule. No one has a right to involve other peoples families in their religion. It is time that the Mormon Church did the honorable thing and met its commitment to the Jewish people to cease this offensive act of posthumous baptism as outlined in the agreement they signed in 1995.<<

Mick is right

No one should take offense here. Trust in God and move on. He is fair and will give everyone the same chance to do the same things they need to do to be saved. That is what helped convert me to the LDS Church. Respect this decision by the Catholics.

The other thing by which I'm disappointed is that of these 600-plus comments, not one made by a Latter-day Saint contains an invitation to ask God what He says on this matter. (I helped contribute to this bushel-light covering, I'll admit).

I just don't get this

To whoever wrote to Alex,
Your parents being baptized doesn't change anything if they don't want it to. Thats the fact, no one has to change faiths just because we perform a baptism in the temple. If they don't accept than everything is just same as when they were here. The ordinance isn't forcing anything on anyone. I do have a serious question for any Catholic, not trying to argue just understand. When you baptize a child I realize the intent of it is to make sure they have it done should they pass early in life, but why do the baptism when the child has no choice?

Alex

"Are you implying that if I object to my deceased Parents (Catholic Faith) being (possibly) posthumously baptized into some sort of LDS framework of beliefs because I find the act dissrespectful at the very least ... are you saying that I don't have a leg to stand on? ... just to be clear sir. "

Short answer: yes, but probably not in your lifetime.

Ultimately, yes, your father will have opportunity to be baptized into an LDS framework of beliefs, on conditions that your father does so of his own free will and choice in the world of the Spirits of the Dead. Ultimately, we believe that all will have opportunity to receive those ordinances vicariously (one person standing in the place of another).

That said, it probably wouldn't be done in your lifetime unless one of your father's posterity as a member of the LDS Church does that work for him. I have never done work in the temple for someone who wasn't a family name who wasn't already dead for over 100 years. That is my experience. (I am sure there are infrequent exceptions.)

Re: "To thanks alot"

Are you seriously commenting that I'm looking for "an easy way out"? What gall to make such an assumption. And, yes, my Catholic friends were following this story and reading the comments then called me about it wondering what I thought. You again assume a lot thinking they do not know about the LDS doctrine of baptism for the dead, and naively assume more that their understanding of it would enhance their opinion of the church.

"Go for it!" Go for what? Defending a religion that at least in this forum seems to be more and more defined by harsh repudiations, arrogant egos, and name-calling of the least of these? Perhaps it is only in such forums that such disgraceful communication is carried on. Sadly, it is available for all the world to see.

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