Comments about ‘Catholics told not to give LDS parish data’

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Published: Sunday, May 4 2008 12:30 a.m. MDT

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Bob

I am not a member of any religion. I believe that we should respect the wishes of the dead and their relatives. When I see the people choose religious dogma over the wishes of a Catholic or Jewish family, I remember why I not a member of any religion.

Love Catholic friends

I love my catholic friends. My grandfather was catholic and joined the church, and now we are all subsequently LDS. We are grateful that the Catholic church has opened up its records in the past to us LDS decendents of these good people. Nearly all of my employees are non-mormons- 18 out of 20, and half of these are catholic- great people- and good friends. I treat them well. Not all mormons are against other churchses. I hope that I am an example of that, and I know that most of my LDS friends are that way as well..but there are a few imposters here on this comment board I believe that try to make us look bad. Thanks.

Bob

As far as I can tell, most LDS members posting in this thread are on low moral ground. Such is the nature of religious dogma.

Sojourner Truth

Two faced | 2:04 a.m. May 4, 2008
"I love these churches who on the one hand, will do almost anything to attack, embarass and arm twist the LDS Church. But then, the second there's a fire at one of their churches, or a natural disaster somewhere, they churches often turn around and beg for the LDS Church's assistance."

Hmm, I cant recall one instance in the past 50 years where the Catholic Church has begged for the LDS Churchs assistance. Quit distorting the truth!

Sasha

Rob | 4:34 p.m. May 4, 2008, wrote:
"It's understandable if the Catholic or Jewish leaders think the LDS church has secret plans to use all this data they are collecting on people and families to do something other than what they say they are doing, which is performing proxy ordinances."

Catholics, Jews, and others are aware that it's for proxy baptism. They don't think it's for some other purpose. Their objection is based on knowing that it's for proxy baptism.

Patty



This may not be an important issue to some. But to someone trying to raise their non- Mormon children is a small town with a Very large Mormon population, this is important. Our children face discrimination every day at school and in their neighborhoods. If you move into Utah into a small town, one of the first things you are asked is: are you a Mormon?
We must take the time to let are feeling known, we all have rights. And not being baptized a Mormon after we die is one of them.

One-Upmanship...

I see a lot of idioc comments by mormons.I have less respect for the mormon church from these comments on this post. I once thought that it was possible we had the same end game put now I just see the mormons for how they truly are with all these comments,,,,

Dissed

ladyblueyes | 2:18 a.m. May 4, 2008
"I cannot believe the Catholic church is being so stingy and dog-in-the-manger."

Money | 6:59 p.m. May 4, 2008
"These posts are silly. The obvious truth is the Catholic chuch wants money for its records and that's it."

It's not about being stingy. It's about respecting others beliefs, something you apparently know nothing about.

jennifer

Baptism by Proxy Doctrine | 10:48 a.m. May 4, 2008, wrote:

"Christ was perfect and yet he was still baptized."

Here is the explanation.

Ambrose in Luke 3:21: "Our Lord was baptized because He wished, not to be cleansed, but to cleanse the waters, that, being purified by the flesh of Christ that knew no sin, they might have the virtue of baptism."

Chrysostom (Hom. iv in Matth.): "that He might bequeath the sanctified waters to those who were to be baptized afterwards."

to It wouldn't be offensive

"If those of other faiths were truly secure in their own faith, they would dismiss any LDS baptisms for the dead as the erroneous choice of a deluded people."

Everyone already *knows* it's deluded. It's the arrogance and insensitivity of it that people are talking about. Anyone can be fooled but even if they are, they can and should be a decent human being.

Excuse Me?!?

"deceased are baptized into the LDS faith so that they may be united in the afterlife with LDS families, if they so choose."

They are dead so how do they choose to be LDS? A living family member decides? Isn't that against freedom of religion? I would be pissed if after I died someone without by consent or will changed my faith.

Naive?

ladyblueyes | 2:18 a.m. May 4, 2008
"It's not true that we baptize EVERYONE ... it has to be submitted by a family member for that to happen. But it would be nice to have all the information for geneology."

Ya, right. That's why Pope John Paul II was baptized by the LDS exactly one year to the day after he died, 4 times, no less.

Sad

How sad, every time I think there is hope that the LDS people will look at Catholics as a loving and faithful people in our own right. Something like this comes to light.
We are Catholics because it is right, are faith, are truth, and our joy. We do not ask you to be something else. Do not ask us to be something we are not. Only in Utah. What happened to live and let live? What happen to love they neighbor?
It is time to say goodbye to Utah and find a new home where people worry less about if you are Mormon or not and more about what kind of person you are.

Becasue my Dear Julie

If I died as a Catholic, Jew, Hindu, Muslim, etc then that was my faith I chose. I would roll over in my grave if later on a LDS family member came by and baptised me as a LDS.

This is against freedom of religion. Logic says that if the dead person wanted to be LDS they would have converted when they were alive!

Liars

Shelley | 5:23 p.m. May 4, 2008
"Not so very many years ago, the Jews were offended to discover that some Holocaust victims had been given proxy baptisms. Out of respect for the history and feelings of those of another faith, the LDS Church no longer allows its members to perform proxy baptisms for Jews unless the member involved can show family ties to the ancestor being proxied. ... Why not do the same thing for the Catholics, if they feel offended by the ordinance of proxy baptism for the dead?"

In fact, it's probably because of the broken promises made to the Jews by the LDS that the Catholic Church is wary. Despite a written agreement in 1995, thousands of Jews continue to be baptized by proxy, and they're still upset about it.

Jim J in Cedar Rapids

I am dismayed at the antagonistic and offensive statements by both sides of the issue. Obviously, I am not going to change anyone's mind on either side of the issue. But, really, I have read very few posts that exhibit the love and charity exemplified by our Savior.
Several misconceptions that should be corrected; 1) Temple work is at the request of decendent family members of the deceased. Normally, not always, a relative has done the research and submitted the names to the temple for proxy work. 2) As Latter-day Saints, we do believe strongly in an afterlife where those who did not receive the Gospel of Jesus Christ in life, have the opportunity to be taught and accept the ordinances from the temple on their behalf. It is still their choice to accept or not the blessings and ordinances of the Gospel. 3) The Church has become more sensitive to the wishes of other family members and cultures not of our faith. Not always compliant, but trying to do better.
I consider it an honor and sacred privilege to do this work for my ancesters. It is their agency to accept or not.

just a thought

There has been a lot of abusive language in this stream that surprises me. The Catholic Church has the right to say that they don't wish to be a party to a practice they believe to be wrong. In fact, since the Catholic Church believes itself to be the only true church it is appropriate that they take this step. It is also not surprising that the LDS Church would be disappointed in this move because they believe that they are the only true church and that only through these ordinances on behalf of the dead can everyone who has ever lived have a chance to attain the highest degree of celestial glory.
It is, however, an issue that the church leaders involved should deal with and settle. All of this wrangling online is merely fostering discord and contention, something neither church is interested in promoting. Perhaps we should seek to be a little more constructive and a little less flippant or accusatory. Just a thought.

Hostility

Mary Anne fittingly said, "..there seems to be great hostility between Mormons and Catholics." What most LDS don't realize is that most Catholics have never heard of their church, or at best confuse it with the Jehovah's Witnesses or Scientologists. However, things are about to change. I was told about this forum by a friend on the East Coast. Right now this forum is being copied and will surely be distributed to Catholics everywhere. If the LDS wants to be better-known, it's wish is about to become reality. The Baptists were already onto you, now it will be the Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, etc. Hostility? Yes! Bring it on. The LDS dream of joining mainstream Christianity in the US is now dead and buried and no temple rite will ever bring it back. The LDS posts on this forum is a Godsend to Catholic apologists everywhere.

owning names and people

I didn't know that any one group had the AUTHORITY to own names and people,
whether DEAD or ALIVE.

Free access to history must be the rule. Free access to names, dates, places, etc.
No one group (whether a religious entity or not) should have the right to
be so closed minded.

Unless a person specifically mentioned (sealed by a notary) that they never wanted their name etc. given out, then records must be left open.

Since when can the catholic church dictate what any other church does?
Freedom of religion (even in Italy) is the rule of law.


Michael

Wow, I'm amazed at how out of control everyone is (especially Hostility.) Shame on all of us! Perhaps this emotionalism just comes with the terrain of blogging. Print the forum? A "Godsend"? Those sound like emotionalized, conniving fighting words. Both faiths have been shamed in this forum, so will it ALL be printed? In a time when many are turned off religion altogether, who are we pulling for anyway?

The Catholic Church isn't declaring anything new, I have to admit. It has just been the policy of this new pope to draw a line of demarcation between his religion and others. Recently he reiterated the view that Protestant religions are invalid. It's too bad because John Paul II had made so much progress to bridge gaps and promote dialogue.

My roots are in Italy, where I've already seen many Catholic priests refuse to let people of other faiths see their parish records. Others have been more lax about it. Obviously, Benedict XVI is trying to guilt them into his way, but I'm sure there will still be ways around it. Many Catholic clergymen (and Catholics) show goodwill to other faiths. I've only seen a couple in this forum.

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