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Comments about ‘Catholics told not to give LDS parish data’

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Published: Sunday, May 4 2008 12:30 a.m. MDT

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For The Love...

For the love, folks, show a little respect and humility in what you post for the world to read. I am active LDS, but Mormons do not have the market cornered on goodness or spirituality, nor do we have a free pass to ignore the often understandable concerns of those not of our faith.

Your church leaders would never encourage you to defend your faith in the manner that many, if not most, of the posters here are attempting. It does much more harm than good.

Explain, yes. Attack or condemn, no. We can disagree without being disagreeable, as our leaders have often taught us. Let's make some small effort to put ourselves in the shoes of those whose beliefs differ from our own.

Family On Earth

I believe life as we know it as we experience it with our families should be our focus, not a belief in an after life. What better way to honor a family member than to abide by the wishes of that dead family member as the family knew him on earth. What better way to honor the immediate family member than to honor their wishes?

Catholic Homer

The Mormon Church has around fourteen million members, whereas the Catholic Church has over one billion. They can't even be mentioned in the same universe. The Catholic Church is also two thousand years old.

Thomas

Mark -- I offer my comment on Oliver Cromwell in the same spirit as the Vatican offered its thumb to the eye of the LDS Church on the baptism issue. I say the descendants of the Inquisitors have something of a log in their own eye getting the vapors over references to Cromwell.

As much as I admire the present Catholic Church as the custodian of a magnificent intellectual and spiritual tradition, and as virtually the last keeper of the flickering Christian flame in Europe, I am heartily glad that the English-speaking world gave Rome the heave-ho during the Reformation. As nasty as both sides in the Reformation got (and Cromwell's acts at Drogheda, though exaggerated by Catholic propagandists, would never be countenanced today), I am convinced that the right side won in England, and that Anglo-American civilization would have been much the worse for having continued as a Catholic society.

Thomas

"To Alex" --
"The LDS Trinity and the Christian Trinity are not the same. Look it up."

I *have* looked it up, and researched the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds backwards and forwards. My considered conclusion is that both sides are exaggerating the differences: the Mormons, to gin up a need for a "restoration" of important doctrines on which traditional Christianity was in error, and traditional Christians, because they think Mormons are weird and just hate having secularists tar all religionists with the same kooky brush.

The bottoml line is that Mormons believe the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are separate persons, who are nevertheless one God in some mystical sense. Hairsplitting aside, that's pretty much the traditional Christian position, too. Such a lot of fighting over stuff nobody truly knows anything about.

Don't get me started on Elder Holland's infamous mistranslation of the word "immensus" in the Athanasian Creed. Short version: It doesn't mean "incomprehensible" in the modern sense of "impossible to be understood."

ME

Dear "It wouldn't be offensive":

It wouldn't be offensive to YOU if someone were to baptize you into some other church. Why draw on your morality solely on the basis of reference to the way you experience the world and honor the dead and their immediate families by using the dead person's name in a religious ceremony of the dead?

It strikes me as rude to insist on using the name of anyone for their religious purposes.

Religion

When reading the comments in this thread, I find that religion does nothing to improve the moral good will of humans. Instead of focusing on the sky, let's bring ourselves back to earth and rid ourselves of religious dogma.

Does Thomas know anything about the history of anti-Catholic sentiment among Protestants in England and the cruelty involved? Wow! One moment you're praising the Catholic church, and next moment slamming it.

I'm convinced that religious is the source of much of what's wrong the world. If the Catholic Church had reigned over England, England would probably have been just as cruel as they were as Protestants.

Gary

Bruce R. McKonkie said the Catholic Church is the "Great and Abominable Church of the Devil." Why should the greatest and oldest Christian denomination on the planet cut a small startup sect any slack. Also, the LDS Church sends out missionaries to steal away Catholic converts in third world countries without providing anything with regard to social justice.

Sally

Jeepers, Is there a religious freedom problem on here or what? I don't think the dead care one way or another if someone wants to do work for them...BIG DEAL! Who cares? I'd like to know how its going to "personally" harm any of you?

To Decider of Denominator

, Orion and others.
What happens if people get to the other side and realize their chosen denominations wrong? The LDS church believes that God's work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. We believe that God so loved the world that he sent His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Yet on this earth they believe in Him but they are kept from salvation due to a technicality-the ordinance of baptism. Then, if they are given the opportunity, no technicality can keep them from God's promises. God is all powerful, wise, all-loving, etc. and because of that, has given everyone the opportunity to be saved in one of three kingdoms-which have many mansions in each.
It doesn't matter that the catholics hold back their records because the Savior is soon coming for the second time and when he does, 1,000 years will be dedicated to this work and no hindering will happen. Those who reject (telestial beings) won't be on the earth and won't be saved for this 1,000 years and those who don't reject will be here physically to do the work.

just thiking...

Some interesting numbers: Say you do 2 baptisms/minute, 18 hours/day, ~120 temples, 365 days/year. You'd do 94 million posthumous baptisms/year. Very impressive. At that rate, you'd go through the entire available database (2 billion names according to lds.org newsroom) in about 20 years.

But it gets tricky. At that rate, it would take 343 years to baptize every one of the 32 billion humans estimated to have been born since 1,200 AD (prb.org). And then another 778 years to get the 74 billion or so souls born before that. On top of that, you'd have to dedicate about 80 temples just to keep up with the 60 million or so people who die each year.

I don't mean this to be discouraging. After all, if you have faith that this work will get done, then you won't be discouraged. I just think it could help the dialog if people inside the LDS Church could see how preposterous this practice looks to the rest of the world, and help you feel better that the names from the Catholic Church are really an insignificant drop in the population bucket.

torquemada

So, if during the millenium all of the temple "work" is going to get done, why bother with it now?

Could it be to keep the tithing dollars rolling in??

Michael E. Bristow

I'm rather suprised that Msgr. Fitzgerald would try to be so "politic" with the Mormons. Right now the LDS Church is running so far & fast away from questions of polygamy, that the last thing they need is to take the Catholic Church about anything.

What's the Roman Catholic Church - a billion plus, and the LDS make a big deal about their 12 million, world-wide. And, half of that is overseas, so what left, 6 million in the US. That's not even half of Los Angeles County.

I would sincerely recommend to Bishop Webster not to be to cowardly in his relations with the Mormon Church. They are not on solid ground right now.

Hey, guess what!!!

I'm just grateful to live in a time and a country where no one is shoving a gun barrel, sword, or bow and arrow in my face and demanding that I accept a certain religion as "true." Or burning me at the stake. Or torturing me for not giving into their demands. Too bad my French Huguenot ancestors didn't have the same situation. They had to escape to England and eventually America.

I'm going to continue to perform proxy temple work for my ancestors, no matter what religion they were in this life, because I believe that Jesus Christ's gospel was founded on the truth that everyone has freedom of choice. It's my choice to do this work, and it's my ancestors' choice to say "Thanks, I was hoping you'd do that" or "No thanks, I'll stay my same Methodist/Presbyterian/Baptist self."

"The dogs may bark, but the caravan moves on."

To whom this pertains

I don't think there'd be an outcry by anyone of the LDS faith if other denominations or Satan's followers were taking names of LDS and doing their version of baptisms because it wouldn't count. I think that if Satan's followers were taking an interest in names at all it would be to find out who the living saints are so they could "slayeth the saints of God, yea, and tortureth them and bindeth them down, and yoketh them with a yoke of iron, and bringeth them down into captivity." All followers of Satan desire captivity and death of the righteous. It won't matter if they are catholic, baptist, presbyterian, coJCoLDS, etc. If they are righteous, followers of Satan want them to not have freedom, and want to seek their premature death. As those who killed the Jews and other places. Baptisms for the dead (by proxy) isn't a grave-robber type mentality.
Somebody wrote this and I quote it, I'm sure I don't quote it perfectly either. "He that is offended when no offense is intended is a fool" "He that is offended when offense is intended, is a greater fool"
The problem we have as Christians: we're not united!

Mark

I completely agree with the churches protection of records of the church since releasing those records would undermine the one true baptism, as a sacrament. Jesus had to become man in order to forgive sin and comply with the sacrament of baptism so baptism of the deceased by proxy has no Biblical premise no matter who self proscribes to be a prophet and come up with a new revelation/doctrine or covenant. Jesus came once and when he comes again "for real" we will have judgement based upon our divine nature as man, with body and soul.

To whom this pertains, cont.

Everyone who believes in Christ needs to unite. He that is divided shall fall. There is only one way to do that! That is ask God what his will is. Is God a liar? No! And he says, "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed". Yet, very, very few people ever do this. Including those in the LDS faith. If all people were to do this, all Christians would be united.
As far as Bruce R. McKonkie is concerned saying the Catholic Church as great and abominable church. 1 NE 13. That is his opinion. The church asked him to retract that and he did. What matters is the revelation that comes from the first presidency. NOT individual opinions. That's the same with MT. Meadow Massacre. The Council (the church) told them over and over and over again "NO". Those involved acted alone not waiting even for Brigham Youngs response to leave the wagon trains alone!

bj

The LDS church is not copying these records specifically for baptisms.....they are copying for the genealogy, and only if member of the Lds faith submit their personal family members for baptism is it then done..........not as a parish, or otherwise. they are doing this for the good of all including Catholics worldwide wanting to trace their own roots, without submitting names for Baptism.

Curious

What I want to know is if the dead at least get to play some baseball.

Suspicious

Why, all of a sudden, at this particular point in time, did this particular pope make this particular decision? The LDS Church has been microfilming parish records for decades, spanning numerous popes. This is the same pope that enraged the Jewish community by issuing the revised "Good Friday Prayer for the Jews" which specifically prays for the conversion of the Jews to Christianity. There is something not quite right with this man's thinking. The Catholic church is in serious decline, not just in the USA, but across Europe as well, even in Italy. I suspect this will not be the last of the peculiar, controversial pronouncements from him in some misguided attempt to save the faith.

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