Deseret News | Catholics told not to give LDS parish data

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Catholics told not to give LDS parish data

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Julie | 12:48 a.m. May 4, 2008

I'm still trying to figure out why it bothers people that mormons do baptisms for the dead if non-mormons don't believe that it has any effect.

"grave reservations" | 12:53 a.m. May 4, 2008

HAH! Good one.

amen | 1:10 a.m. May 4, 2008

I completely agree with Julie... If it is "erroneous" in their view, then what is the big deal?

Comments continue below

Neola | 1:31 a.m. May 4, 2008

My Catholic aunt used to fuss about her nephew being 'baptized' posthumously, until she realized it was a gift of love, as if she went to her Rosary or her votive candles with a prayer for a dying or dead loved one.
And she readily accepts that if the LDS Church has the authority from God, to give this gift of choice, she wants to do His will and receive it.
But if it is not true authority, no one is hurt by the exercise; it was still a gift of love.

Biblical Practice | 1:55 a.m. May 4, 2008

Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead? I Corinthians 15:29

Two faced | 2:04 a.m. May 4, 2008

I love these churches who on the one hand, will do almost anything to attack, embarass and arm twist the LDS Church. But then, the second there's a fire at one of their churches, or a natural disaster somewhere, they churches often turn around and beg for the LDS Church's assistance.

I suppose if being Christian means kicking someone, then asking for their help, only to turn around and kick them again, then maybe the LDS Church isn't Christian after all.

ladyblueyes | 2:18 a.m. May 4, 2008

I cannot believe the Catholic church is being so stingy and dog-in-the-manger.

It's not true that we baptize EVERYONE ... it has to be submitted by a family member for that to happen. But it would be nice to have all the information for geneology.

I sometimes wonder if the Pope is thinking clearly. Does he not know the scripture about turning the hearts of the fathers to the children and the children to the father?

Huh? | 2:47 a.m. May 4, 2008

Churches were once the only record keepers, not governments.
Catholics and many other churches have -- for many decades -- received the benefit of having their (highly perishable) parish records copied for them at no cost and no strings attached, by the LDS church.
Those microfilms have saved important local records after fires, floods, mold, mice, and bugs destroyed the originals.

And Julie is right on --- what are they worried they will lose, if they DON'T believe the LDS have any authority? But if the LDS baptisms ARE God's command and therefore effective, wouldn't you want to embrace that? Clear thinking requires one or the other, not both.

Dip away | 2:48 a.m. May 4, 2008

Wait! The Pope (Catholics) say that a Mormon must be rebaptized if they join the Catholic church.
So obviously they dont' believe in Mormon baptism.

So why does this bother them?
I figure if they believe this way then give the Mormon's all the names they can handle and more and keep them busy for years.....

Hmm... did the Pope talk out of both sides of his mouth when he was in the USA? OR did something happen in the meeting with the two GAs?

I do Family History | 3:40 a.m. May 4, 2008

The reason I do my family history is so that I know all about my ancestors. Where they were born, etc. And alot of times to know that kind of data requires records. Is it a bad thing to know about your own ancestors? I don't think so. Not just members of the LDS faith research their family lines, so I don't understand why the Catholic Church would be hesitant in releasing parish records. Aren't members of the Catholic Church interested in their family lines? What if a member of their family many generations past were not Catholic but of some other religion wouldn't they want access to vital information from that particular Church?

Sj Bobkins | 4:09 a.m. May 4, 2008

The Catholic Church owns the records they can do what they wish. I would hope that LDS authorities might at least have the chance to explain the value of those records when made available to anyone searching for a link to their ancestors. It's also important to stress that there will NOT be an LDS Church in heaven or any other church. The purpose of church is earthly, having nothing to do with what happens after judgement. The role of the church is to inform members on what they need do to be in the presence of their God after death.
Rather than take offense with a practice the LDS Church might be doing, one could look upon baptism for the dead as an unselfish and caring ritual, which if not accepted by the person who's name is used means nothing. If the Catholic church believes that the LDS Church is in error, what does it matter?
The universal availability of the records should mean more than any offense to an LDS ritual.

Ex-Cath | 4:18 a.m. May 4, 2008

Another evidence of religious close-mindedness. Are they nervous about losing membership or what? What silly notion they come up with? LDS are merely interested in seeking out their ancestors. What's wrong with that?

Cuts Both Ways | 4:20 a.m. May 4, 2008

It might surprise you, but some people don't like Mormons. Would it bother mormons if let's say the FLDS were re-doing the temple ordinances because they figured the mainstream LDS had gone astray.

The LDS church would be all over that like white on rice. So why be surprised that other churches don't like the LDS church doing the same?

LDSaint | 4:32 a.m. May 4, 2008

It is hard for me as a convert to the LDS Church to understand this. At no time in my life as a Lutheran or a Mormon would I have been offended by someone lighting a candle for one of my dead relativess at the Catholic church. If Catholics believe that their prayers for the dead are effective, regardless of the religion of the deceased, why should they be offended if the Mormons have a different belief about providing blessings for the dead. This is a sad day for tolerance and mutual respect between the two religions!

Chris | 4:33 a.m. May 4, 2008

I agree with Julie--what's the rub if you don't believe baptisms for the dead have any effect?

Did the Catholic church also decide to refuse LDS humanitarian aid in the future?

I guess I can see the Catholic church's point--if my version of "truth" did not include a doctrinal ordinance clearly mentioned (and practiced) in the New Testament times, I might have some "grave reservations" too.

Alan | 4:40 a.m. May 4, 2008

It shouldn't bother anyone what LDS members do, especially if what they do is false and has no physical or eternal consequence.

my questions | 4:52 a.m. May 4, 2008

I'm still trying to figure out why so many faiths believe their God isn't "god" enough to save those who die without being baptized/receiving rites in mortality? If there is a God, why are God's hands tied in offering salvation? I don't understand why mortals must receive ordinances physically to receive an eternal blessing from God. Isn't God all-powerful and able to grant whatever blessings suit? Truly, I have never understood this. To me, it seems adherents of most faiths worship a divine being who has been severely hampered in ability to actually be all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving. Every time I study further there are restrictions on God's ability to eternally bless, forgive and love.

JWK | 5:10 a.m. May 4, 2008

Julie, perhaps they consider the possibility that mormons are right but don't want to admit it. I agree with your point. If I don't think some faith's ideas are true or right I'm not going to worry about it. I don't care if they want to proxy baptise anything that moves, or in this case, doesn't move, for if its not a true practice it does not matter in the eternities anyway.

Interested Observer | 5:37 a.m. May 4, 2008

It makes the Catholic Church sound as if it is afraid LDS doctine might be correct! If the doctrine is wrong, what difference does it make? If it is correct, do you really want to put yourslf in direct opposition to God's will?

This makes the Catholic Church appear unsure of its doctrine.

Don't get it | 5:51 a.m. May 4, 2008

Is the Catholic Church the only true church or not? If so, what's the big fuss over allowing people all over the world to see their parish records?
Surely Catholics are not trying to hide anything, or are they concerned about Mormons work for the dead?
So what! Catholics don't believe what the Mormons are doing anyway, so why are they creating the (Berlin) Wall? The Mormons don't have any up.

For Julie | 5:54 a.m. May 4, 2008

Good insight, Julie! I have to chuckle on that, too! I am LDS but half of my ancestors are Catholic. My relatives are not opposed to me having access to their "records" at all. Most of the long gone relatives' records have been destroyed by fires and so on anyway. I read somewhere recently that a deceased person has no "rights to privacy" and anyone can access their records; however, the Church records, I guess, are not considered public records?

Card | 5:59 a.m. May 4, 2008

I agree with Julie. And everyone benefits from the practice because it helps establish geneological lines that otherwise may not have been known. The LDS church has done a lot to help people know who their ancestors are and where they came from. If you don't believe in the practice, then why disallow the use? Should the LDS church not allow Catholics access to their geneological records?

Is it that.... | 6:00 a.m. May 4, 2008

there is scriptural evidence supporting the practice and that outside the LDS faith, fear of this is the force that closes archives. The forces of evil are ever watching for oppotunities to shut out light, love, and truth, or, "turning the hearts of the fathers to the children and the children to the fathers, lest I smite the earth with a curse". That curse could be shutting the doors on what enables this work and concern for our ancestors to happen. After all, the LDS church would not be doing this tedious work of love unless it were commanded. It takes real time, money, and sacrafice on the part of the church and it's faithful to carry the torch. Christ did it for us in a big way, doing something for mankind they could not do for themselves...carefully read, 1st and 2nd Peter, Malachi, and 1st Corinthians for a few clues folks, prayerfully. God Bless All.

So True | 6:01 a.m. May 4, 2008

I had the same thoughts as Julie while reading this article. If any other religion or group believe the Mormons are impostors, or wackos, or consigned to hell, why in the world does it matter at all what they do with the records of deceased people.

Durak | 6:10 a.m. May 4, 2008

I grew up as a very active Catholic and as a young adult became LDS. I also do not understand something the Catholics don't believe it would or should negatively impact them.

So, if only Catholics can look at the records, what do THEY use them for?

The LDS Church is actually doing all these parishes a service by preserving the records. What does the Catholic Church do to preserve them. Nothing as far as I know.

All this seems strange.

Secrecy is Never Good | 6:12 a.m. May 4, 2008

The Catholic Church should rethink its policy. Not only will this policy make it harder for people to learn about their ancestors, but if the Mormon Church is not as it claims the restored church of Jesus Christ, then the baptisms for the dead are meaningless. Also, Mormons believe that the dead do not have to accept the ordinances done for them by LDS proxies. If they choose, they can reject those ordinances completely. So the policy makes no sense except to pit Mormons against Catholics when both churches should band together to help people live Christlike lives and to help fight Satan's increasily successful efforts to convince the world that wrong is right. Furthermore, LDS who desire secret data will merely hire non-LDS to procure the data.

Nora | 6:13 a.m. May 4, 2008

I have been helping a Mexican lady (non-member) here in our FHC in the Northeast US for several months. Much of the info she has found has come from old Parish Record extractions. How sad that this source is being cut off. There are many parishes not yet filmed.

orion | 6:19 a.m. May 4, 2008

I would think there would be a cry of outrage among the LDS folk if Catholics suddenly baptized deceased, life-long, temple worthy, LDS members. How about church prophets? How about those who died while in service of the LDS Church?

It is the height of arrogance to claim the "souls" of those like Joan of Arc, Mother Theresa, Pope John Paul II, and anyone else who lived worthy lives dedicated to their own faiths. It is a matter of respect.

No LDS should be upset | 6:19 a.m. May 4, 2008

The Catholic perspective of having "grave reservations" concerning LDS baptisms for the dead is perfectly acceptable. Their words are actually pretty mild in comparison, considering that the LDS believe baptism of little children is a "gross error," a "solemn mockery before God," and "that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell." (See chapter 8 of Moroni in the Book of Mormon). Yes, each church believes the other is worshipping erroneously, and neither should be offended by that.

Mark | 6:21 a.m. May 4, 2008

Because it's an insult to the faith we choose, and the lives we lead. If I wanted to be Mormon, I'd be Mormon. But I'm not, I was baptized Lutheran, and chose to be Catholic, and don't want any revisionist history written about me after I die.

Ask yourself if you've ever told anybody that Martin Luther was a Mormon. Because I've heard that from Mormons, when they were trying to convert me during my 30 years in Utah. He wasn't. And I don't want anyone to try to rewrite my history either.

Lyle | 6:28 a.m. May 4, 2008

I donï¿½t understand why the Catholic church would withhold family information from people of all denominations, who are trying to make links with their ancestors, unless the Catholic church believes that there just might be some credibility to the work done for the dead in LDS temples. If the Catholic church believes that such temple work is of no efficacy, why all the concern.

The LDS church is doing so much to make available to people of all faithï¿½s, free of charge, help in searching out their ancestors. It would be such a shame for the Catholic church to hinder such a worthy cause! I hope they will reconsider. To date, they have been so much help.

Re: Julie | 6:30 a.m. May 4, 2008

Perhaps for the same reason it bothers people when wierdos violate a corpse. It's a respect-for-dead kind of thing.

Jason | 6:35 a.m. May 4, 2008

Julie, You are joking, right? Mormons should respect others religious beliefs. Baptizing the dead is simply offensive. Mormons want to be left alone to worship how they want and should leave others to do the same.

Denise | 6:37 a.m. May 4, 2008

Julie, Excellent comment!

To Julie: | 6:46 a.m. May 4, 2008

I wonder how you would feel if a group that you thought was a cult, say The Church of Satan, baptised your family into their Church. Would you like it??? I am not saying anything against the LDS Church, I am saying that many would find it understandably offensive.

Funny | 6:48 a.m. May 4, 2008

I'm with Julie. The LDS Church performs a service worth millions of dollars for free--digitizing these records across the globe and making them accessible to everyone, everywhere. Yes, LDS Church members also perform temple work for these people. But there are two things that non-members just don't seem to get:

1) Even for Latter-day Saints, these ordinances don't mean anything unless the person beyond the veil personally accepts the gospel taught by missionaries. If not, the ordinances are invalid. Therefore performing this work should be no more threatening to another church than having LDS missionaries knock on the doors of their members. In fact, if you think about it, it is less threatening.

2) If you don't believe that the work for the dead is true doctrine who cares what Mormons do in their temples? If I found out that Catholics were saying mass for my dead father to try and save his soul (damned by Catholic doctrine for not having a valid baptism), I wouldn't care in the least.

Decider of Dominator | 7:00 a.m. May 4, 2008

Turn that around: what gives Mormons the right to make a religious decision for those who have died and were not of the LDS faith, especially if one did not choose to be part of the LDS faith when alive?

Who What? | 7:09 a.m. May 4, 2008

Right on Julie. If they don't believe the doctrine is true then why do they care?
I would think that if they were my relatives I should have the right to have the information.

TheMadNuker | 7:10 a.m. May 4, 2008

There is so much to be gained through respectful
cooperation. I hope that the two Churches can come
to a realization, that in the long run, both are striving to be a force for good in this life, and
beyond.Yes, there are differences, but those should
not prevent the good that can be achieved, through
mutual respect, and with a true desire to bring souls unto Christ. Smile, and everyone pray for such
a thing to come about. :-)

Setefano | 7:16 a.m. May 4, 2008

Strange that the boys in Rome are concerned with what they say ia erroneous doctrine. Perhaps they are slowly realizing that Joseph Smith is indeed a prophet and they see a threat to their man-based religion with all its wealth. More confirmation that the gospel has been restored and that there was a reason that Joseph was told that all religions had errors.

UVR | 7:18 a.m. May 4, 2008

This decision by the Catholic Church is simply illadvised. Parrish records are the equivalent to secular records, which in years gone by were not kept or were sketchy. These records should be available to family to trace their progenators. What is ultimately done with these names of family members is no concern to whatever faith these individuals may have practiced. The fact that some of these individuals may have their true ordinances performed for them (according the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints), which the Catholic faith does not accept as teachings of their church is not the issue.

dcc | 7:22 a.m. May 4, 2008

Julie, the fact that you don't understand is the problem.

Debbie | 7:32 a.m. May 4, 2008

This is very shortsighted on the part of the Pope. Having the records copied and made available to all genealogists (since the LDS Church has the premier repository of genealogical records) protects the records from ever being totally lost to fire or other disasters. It also allows millions of people to search for their ancestors. The majority of visitors to the Church's Family History Library are actually non-Mormons.

So, apparently the Pope is opposed to people discovering their own heritage. Genealogy is one of the fastest growing hobbies in the world. Why would he do this? Like the Jews, apparently he must believe in the LDS doctrine of baptism for the dead and sealings of families or there would be no reason to fear how these records might be used by the church. If it is not true and the ordinances are only done vicariously, why would they care?

Dan | 7:35 a.m. May 4, 2008

Catholic church has lost my respect:(

Proud Non-Catholic | 7:40 a.m. May 4, 2008

It's a good thing Oprah got her family history researched before irrational fears from the Africans worried that knowing her heritage would be a bad thing for them. This will seriously hinder all attempts at family history by all searchers, regardless of their faith as parish records are an important source of historical data. Why keep it secret from the world? Are the Catholics ashamed to disclose that people were baptized as infants. Has any harm ever come to them as a result of people being able to discover their lineage.

I can't believe how many supposedly smart people have such irrational fears that govern their actions. If I didn't already doubt the Pope's authority I certainly would now. This is not inspiration; merely fear and prejudice that will hurt many more than the LDS faithful.

Greg | 7:45 a.m. May 4, 2008

Mark, parish records are used to write revisionist history? How does a name and birthday rewrite history?

BTW........I have NEVER heard that Martin Luther was a Mormon. But nice attempt to back up your argument.

In addition, should the LDS Church check for membership in the LDS Church before they allow anyone to access Familysearch.com or go into the Genealogical Library? And did you know that genealogy is the number 1 or 2 hobby in the U.S.?

Sue | 7:46 a.m. May 4, 2008

This is really nothing new from the Catholic Church. I have a document in my possession that I had to sign when I was viewing Catholic Records in Scotland, wherein I had to promise not to publish the names of the my Catholic ancestors in any database. I have to show this documentation everytime I get access to those records. Those Records are kept at the National Archives in Scotland.

Chris | 7:47 a.m. May 4, 2008

The Pope and the Catholic Church are a little like those men who wanted to take the plates away from the Prophet Joseph: of course, they didn't believe in the vision he had in the grove, but,hey, IF there were gold plates, they wanted to make sure they were theirs! To the Pope, the LDS Church is misguided and untrue...so if our beliefs are untrue than whatever we do with the info we learn their parish registers will not have any effect. I, too, am a former Catholic, and it does not bother me if my Catholic relatives say the rosary for me or light a candle for the welfare of my soul. I believe faith in God is beneficial by members of any Church.

My feeling is that we should just pray that the Pope's heart will be softened and than practice patience. Somewhere it says that Man's work maybe frustrated, but Heavenly Father's work will never be frustrated.

Losing track | 7:52 a.m. May 4, 2008

I think we are losing track of the other primary mission of the research outside of temple work. It is to assemble the largest and most complete genealogical database possible, free to ALL people who want to use it, regardless of their individual beliefs. People who are not LDS complain about LDS members being so close minded and selfish. Perhaps you should look at it from the other side of the fence....

It wouldn't be offensive... | 8:01 a.m. May 4, 2008

To me if someone decided, after I was dead, to "baptize" me into some other church. But that is because I believe the doctrines of my church, that the only ordinances that are valid are those done with the proper priesthood authority. If those of other faiths were truly secure in their own faith, they would dismiss any LDS baptisms for the dead as the erroneous choice of a deluded people.

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