"Our law wouldn't permit it. We have such a different situation from
Eldorado.""...they focus on abuse, domestic violence and welfare
fraud."I do think we've taken the right approach," Goddard said.
"It's not spectacular and it's not headline grabbing...""One of the
best things you can say about Arizona and Utah is (the FLDS) went to Texas to
get away from us,"_____________I fully agree with these
statements. Utah has done well and is taking the angle that SHOULD be taken.
You're darn right they went too far! "Every" child taken from "every" mother by
raiders of the state is government overreach of constitutional proportions.
This should concern everyone. These peoples rights have been trampled on in a
horrific manner. Now, we will no doubt hear the clamor and rage of people
commenting in this very venue over the coming hours. They will of course
expound on charges of "child rape," as if any decent person on the planet
wouldn't categorically denounce such a heinous crime, though no evidence of any
such crime has heretofore been presented in the case at hand. Where such crimes
exist, they should of course be vigorously prosecuted. But the tirades of
certain commentators are intended only to shock the sensitivities of people who
are already abundantly aware of the same misdeeds that have been reported ad
nauseam. Bottom line: There are too many people today Americans, mind you who
would condone the use of government power not merely to prosecute criminals, but
as a means for cultural cleansing. They would wink at the shredding of
individual rights while quietly delighting in the state-run destruction of a
culture they find personally offensive.
Last weekend DN reported that nine FLDS children had been hospitalized, and one
baby had become so dehydrated that he/she was lethargic and had gone into shock.
But this disturbing news disappeared from the news to be replaced by stories of
old bone breaks shown on x-rays, and now an article about the Utah AG in
relation to polygamy. What happened to the hospitalized children?
Yes the Texas AG, did put pressure on both Shurtleff and Goddard. They now are
forced to do something. The amount of force that Texas used was not all that
overwhelming considering WACO, and you do not know what they the FLDS have or
how willing they are to die. It appears though that like most Rapist they are
cowards and anyone standing up to them is to much for them to handle. They can
Rape and Beat Women and Children but a small Police Force with one used War
Surplus Half Track is to much of a show of Force. When Goddard was running for
Gov in Arizona, I lived in Safford and I Voted about 5 min to 7PM. I wanted
Goddard to know that if he lost by one Vote it was mine. Utah and Arizona have
ignored this problems for decades. I really have nothing against Polygamists
that other wise obey the Law and do not claim to be LDS Church Members. Plural
Marriage has been around for Thousands of years. What I have an issue with is
forced marriage and Sex with underage girls and beating children. We call that
Rape and Child Abuse.
Shurtleff is RIGHT ON.Even under TEXAS LAW how can they justify
going into ALL THE PRIVATE HOMES of any community and taking ALL THE CHILDREN
without poof against that specific PRIVATE HOME. Maybe in North Korea but, not
in the good old U. S. of A.
Return the kidnapped children to their parents. No arrests have been made, no
charges have been filed, and no complaints have been levied. No proof of abuse
or neglect has been found. Stop violating the civil rights of this community.
The state authorities should follow the US Constitution. CPS, as an agency of
the government, should be forced to operate in a way that will not circumvent
nor contradict the Fourth Amendment. Federal law should trump state procedures.
Also, free the adult women who are being held as wards of the state as if they
were orphaned children just because some social worker subjectively decides that
they look like they're under 18. Come on, Texas. This should be common sense!
Hey Shurtleff! I guess that explains it. You make the call based on your gut. In
Texas we go by the law.
Leave these people alone.
Reluctant, but makes judgments anyway. Even though Utahans view FLDS as a
minor aberration, the rest of the country see them as extremely abnormal: in
It's the AG's job to enforce the law and prosecute lawbreakers, not fret about
possible constitutional challenges.If the anti-polygamy laws are
thrown out then the legislature can craft new ones or legalize polygamy.That will the job of the legislature, however, not Shurtleff.Until the laws are enforced no one will know and the inevitable collateral
abuse will continue.ENFORCE THE LAW
>>"They have extended an olive branch to polygamous communities with one hand
while clasping a pair of handcuffs in the other."Maybe, but if so it
is a rusty unused pair of handcuffs (don't make me pull out the Barney Fife
analogies!)But, whatever the AG has in his hands is not very
relevant because he has had one eye closed and the other looking away.It is a tough job bering a social worker and prosecutor; too tough, in
fact.But that shouldn't concern Shurtleff because he isn't a social
worker.Please no more excuses about resources and building bridges
and trust.(Yes, we know the list of folks who have been locked up.
Congratulations. It is the thousands who haven't made the list we are thinking
Ignoring illegal polygamy while going after the resultant abuse and fraud is a
recipe for perpetual abuse and fraud.The solution to a leaking roof
isn't to buy more buckets to catch the drip.It is cruel to the women
and children who are the victims of the predictable and inevitable abuse to
simply wait outside the compounds with stretchers to cart away the human
I was pleasantly surprised to hear Utah authorities ever have anything in their
hands.Anytime I have seen them they are wringing their hands about how
hard their job is.
Think about it. The only way you could prosecute bigamy or polygamy is if the
marriage were performed by authorities and/or without the knowledge of the other
wife. Without this it is no different than adultery which apparently is not
against the law - try prosecuting it. Are we going to start rounding up all
adulterers (might not be a bad idea). Men keep mistresses, secret from their
wives. They lie and emotionally abuse their families. These people should be
identified and punished.We live in an immoral society where casual
sex is accepted and even embraced, teen pregnancies are rampant across the
nation and often the young girls are impregnated by a legal adult (18 or over),
but how often do we prosecute? We consider that to be their freedom to choose.
The polygamists are no different in that way so you can't prosecute them for
breaking a law if they are consenting adults having free sex just because they
have someone without authority conducting a ceremony. Who's protecting these
offspring? If they are children, there's a case but you don't round
up all polygamists who had the ceremony rather than just sex and lock up the
Interesting, there's a Polygamy Summit this week. Check this Deseret News
article, put / after .com and then paste this at the end:
Utah doesn't enforce any law that I know of. There are still women from
polygamous areas that go into the grocery stores using food stamps and WIC
certificates. When my husband died, I was told that I didn't qualify for any of
that, so how come the polygamous women rate? There are laws on the books
banning polygamy--and even more laws against food stamp fraud. Shurtleff should
take a look at what he ISN'T doing, because what he is doing isn't much.
""One of the best things you can say about Arizona and Utah is (the FLDS) went
to Texas to get away from us," Goddard said.Lovely.Apparently Goddard and Shurtleff don't really care if child sexual abuse
occurs. Just as long as it doesn't happen in their jurisdiction.
Polygamy is against the law. Child rape is against the law. What part of ILLEGAL
do you not understand?
"every" child from "every" Mother.... Every child was rescued from every abusive
adult who are either a predator or who stood by and allowed the abuse AND as
required, under Texas law, DID NOT REPORT IT TO THE AUTHORITIES. They live
under Texas law while they live in Texas. They need to take some lessons from
the Penn. and Ohio Amish. They live their own way and obey the laws of the
state. Texas may have gone too far with the polygamy part of the law as they
have allowed these relationships to exist without prosecuting the individuals.
We either have to start now, my wish, or amend the law. As it stands these
spiritual marriages are actual marriages under Texas common law marriage.
Therefore fully prosecutable.
"In Texas we go by the law"In 2006 alone there were 63 reported
cases of rape of children while in the state of Texas' care.You'll pardon
the rest of the nation for shuddering when "Texas" and "law" are used in the
same sentence.The polygamist lifestyle and the actions of individuals are
separate issues. Texas CPS should be shut down and the individuals that
participated in this illegal raid should be held personally responsible. Texas had better get out it's checkbook when the truth about this is brought
You can read the Bishop's list at myeldorado dot net it lists Elisabeth Lawrence
Jessop 16 married to LeRay Steed 28 who has 2 other wives.Rachel
Keele Allred 16 married to Lehi Allred 28 who has 2 other wives.Suzanne Jessup Jeffs 16 married to Abram Hacker Jeffs 35 has 4 other wives.There are 2 other 16 yr old brides listed married to younger men, 19 and
22 (if memory serves) they are listed as the only spouse.You can
also get to the list through flds eldorado.
dont forget these same women on food stamps are driving the nicest/newest suv's
in the parking lot.
GLOBE and MAIL : "Ms. Jensen broke away from the church at age 17. Her family
had moved to an FLDS community in the U.S. three years earlier and she had been
assigned to an American husband she did not want to marry. She said she does not
regard the FLDS as a religion."This is an abusive cult."Our
problem; how to legislate to protect our own rights but monitor, oversee,
regulate their's. It's a legal dilemma however one rational, educated minds can
overcome. Mine is working on it. I'll be raising the issue with candidates for
the Texas State Legislature.
why are you guys so upset about polygamy? I know plenty of men who have children
with several women. Some they were married to, some they were not. At least with
spirit wives the guys feel a bit responsible. Forcing underage girls into a
marriage is rape. That needs to be persecuted but polygamy, it is all around us.
We just don't call it that, we call it riff raff but essentially it is the same,
regardless of how it is stated in the law. There is no evidence that the FLDS
abused their children. The only thing to be persecuted should be child rape with
the children returned to their moms!!
Authorities found that 35 of 51 minor girls were either pregnant or already had
children. If the FLDS are locking these children away in order to shield them
from our "immoral" society - they aren't doing a very good job of it. Underage
pregnancy statistics are better at my local public school!
Why don't the people of Utah and Arizona care about the children?The
young girls are forced to sexual relationships at puberty.The young
boys are forced out due to the math problem. There is not engough girls for all
to have multiple wives.Why don't you force your Attorney General
out, he is not interested in upholding the law.
why us guys are upset over polygamy: Oyeah at sltrib: "The worlds
where Polygamy exists, result in backwards evolution for us as a species. Birth
defects rise in number, and education for women is non-existent, except for the
very well placed, and young males are devalued except as tools of war.
Those armies of rapists in Somalia, are the extra sons. The armies of
Ghengis Khan, were extra sons. The militias and personal armies of warlords all
over Africa, the Middle East, and Pakistan, are the extra sons, that cannot
marry, but can carry a gun."***education education education. That
it is so lacking in the citizens who have the advantage of twelve years of free
education and access to all the written knowledge of the free world is
He's right in my opinion. The youngest children should not have been taken
away. I think that it's terrible to take a baby from the arms of it's mother,or
a small child. These women are confused, but they are not
dangerous. Their children are so clean and tidy and well behaved at the grocery
stores, and I have never seen one that looked abused. They look much better
than most kids. Believe it or not, the women don't appear to be
depressed or unhappy with their lives. I have observed this, living near to an
FLDS group. I have never understood it, but they actually like their lifestyle.
You see them in the craft stores, you see them all over town. They don't
appear to be a troubled group. I am not defending the abuse of
young girls. But I do think that if most people were to live around them, you
would see that they are a very peaceful people.
To Polygamy, Yeah you are right. The more wives, the more slave service,
and the more one supreme man can set around on his rump all day, and talk online
to potential anonymous wives. Now hows that for a superior life style. If you
ever notice on tv it's the women who are also in the gardens and the ones
tilling and tending the fields for food. The men hangout behind closed doors.
Hey, Bruce! "Texas had better get out it's checkbook when the truth
about this is brought out." You better get yours out. You'll need
the money to travel to Texas to visit your friends in prison.Love
Do you suppose the FLDS women built the cement plant, the cheese plant, the
temple, and the homes on the FLDS property? Polygamy offers clear
advantages to women who want to have several children and be at home to raise
them and educate them. In our time most American women must
chemically or surgically alter themselves to prevent having more than one or two
children; when they do have babies they cannot nurse them because they must go
back to work outside the home; as the children grow they must be farmed out to
daycare and then they are abandoned to state indoctrination at public schools
and the "education" of the ubiquitous television. Working women rarely have time
to learn anything about gardening, cooking, or nutrition, but feed their
families processed foods which have dubious nutritional value. Looking at the
photos and videos of the people at YFZ ranch could make a lot of over-worked,
underpaid, part-time mothers think about polygamy in a different light.
RE RE To Jake 1:19 Find your own name! Please don't post mine.Why do your
FLDS woman seek food stamps and welfare if you men are such bread winners?
As far as mainstream woman who are NOT slaves. That is their choice to work if
they want to help out. And their are a very small few who have abortions from
either incest and rape, do you understand incest or rape? You need to go look up
what you sit around and scold non FLDS women about. At least our women can think
for themselves and are not zombies brainwashed by a bunch of bullies!
Horah for Shurtliff Leave the polygamists alone if no crimes against humaniy are
committed. Warren Jeffs alone is destroying the culture of the Utah and Ariona
polygs. So many of hem have come out in the open to be a part of society. I
myself am a polygamist who left with my family to the outside world. I have
turned against the FLDS way of life, but I will not abandon any of my plural
families. I love them all dearly and we are able to adapt well independantly
without hiding who we are. If we want to totally go thru the criminal code
to arrest all law breakers, lets start with all the dads who might share a beer
with their 18 year old son during the super bowl game. ya know alcahol to a
minor. it is illegal even at home.
In a community of about 700 FLDS members, 31 girls, which is about 60% of the
underage girls were pregnant or had delivered a baby. DNA testing will reveal
that these children were fathered, not by the teen boys, but by the adult men
who did not show up for testing and appear to have fled the compound. Doing the
math, Utah and Arizona have 442 girls currently in the same situation. The FLDS
compound in Texas is relatively new while the Short Creek population has existed
for decades, so it would not be unreasonable to suppose that some 5000 girls
have been raped in Short Creek. In this article, the Utah and Arizona attorneys
general cite 4 Utah cases, 6 Arizona cases and 3 combined cases against the
FLDS. Shurtleff blames a lack of resources and Goddard blames ineffective laws.
Shurtleff worries that the Texas raid will harm the trust he has built with the
FLDS. NEWSFLASH-GIVEN NUMBERS LIKE THESE 99.9% OF THESE MINOR GIRLS ARE STILL
BEING RAPED. BECOME A LEADER - GET THE FUNDING, PASS THE LAWS AND CONVINCE THE
PUBLIC THAT SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE.
Texas went too far, but at least they have tried to protect the innocent. Utah
and Arizona officials have been cowards in this situation. Sure Shurtless brags
about the trust he has with the FLDS people. They absolutely trust him TO DO
NOTHING regardless of what is getting hurt. He is a disgrace. He is so busy
covering his backside so he can keep his job.
I have spent too much time thinking about this. Now, I have decided that I will
just wait and see what happens. Honestly, people have taken such strong sides on
this issue - just read the postings on this story. Why should everyone be
armchair prosecutors in this case? In my opinion, the consititution of the US is
at stake here.
The recent publicity causes great harm to Utah's worldwide reputation and
diminishes future economic viability of the State and the Mormon church.
Shurtleff is rightly under the Worlds spot light and is fighting for his
political life for a perceived failure to take sufficient action on Polygamy
crimes of the FLDS and others in Utah. Shurtleff is suggesting he has lead a
concerted effort to investigate the est.+60,000 polygamists in Utah, but has
produced little in hard evidence or any significant prosecution (except for
Jeffs & Hildale Police). He admits his investigations have failed to prosecute
the many cases with DNA samples in hand of polygamist men and the child mothers
they impregnate. Shertleff & Goddard should take careful notes from Texas
investigators using DNA. It's shameful that the State Attorney Generals of Utah,
Nevada, Arizona, Colorado to excuse all for a lack of agency money and continue
toward tolerance of these unlawful acts. Let's have no more money excuses as
Sen.Harry Reid offers you Federal assistance. For the publics sake, please seek
out the Feds money and assistance to prosecute the horrific crimes inflicted on
their ilbred children.Logan, UT
People who are getting their shorts in a wad over polygamy are either extremely
sheltered or major hypocrites! How many men out there marry 3 or 4 times with
girlfriends on the side? And the number of women committing adultry in this
country is finally comparable to the men.Where are the marriage
licenses to confirm charges of polygamy or bigamy in that FLDS community? Maybe
they're just fornicating like the rest of America.Pleeeeze stop
these self rightous comments. The hypocrisy makes me gag!
Yeah. Polygamy. Plural parenting. Shocking.Some religions forbid
divorce. The majority of Americans "divorce" and "remarry" - having
children from both - creating "four parental units". If folks
they've re-married - are themselves divorced with children - it creates a larger
number of "custodial figures". Often, folks divorce and re-marry lots -
dating in between (creating babies as they go).There's folks who have
affairs while married - resulting in children from both (sometimes multiple
pregnancies - at the same time). Though "legally" this isn't considered
"multiple wives or husbands" - "parental rights" and "child support" awarded -
prove things differ in actuality.Fathers producing children from many
different women (marrying none - so not considered polygamy) still hold their
parental rights.These folks can live "together" in the "same
apartments" or "small towns" and are encouraged to.Family Court
Judges maintain multiple "parental figures" creates "more adults" present "to
love and care for children" - urging "all concerned" to "work together" ("ruling
against" those who don't) and stress "geographical closeness". Same
DNA "confusion", same complicated set of "siblings".Polygamy depends
on definition."Plural Parenting"? Going on everywhere - with full
blessings of Family Courts.Gonna take everyone's children?
To Polygamy, No matter what you say or think. At least mainstream American
woman are not forced into slavery, no matter what their moral status may be.
Freedom is what America is about. SLAVERY is NOT what America is about.
you people are right what he said was right but use all of what he said not just
what you think about the first thing he said was he didn't think they should
take all of them but what else could they do'in other words they
went by the law not their heartsi would rather no mother or father ever
have to lose a child but we all will at some timeDMN if you dont run this email me and tell me why please
The people who have been spewing out ugly accusations and hate speech against
these people have a very serious problem of their own they need to focus on. It
is not normal to feel hate toward a group of people you don't even know and that
are far removed from your own life. Some of you need to read about "The Salem
UGH! Let me see if I read this correctly. Polygamy is a crime in Utah and
Arizona, yes? Sex with a minor is sex abuse in Utah and Arizona? Slavery and
bondage is a crime in Utah and Arizona? Child abandonment is a crime in Utah and
Arizona? Welfare fraud is a crime in Utah and Arizona? Or what about child
labor, or refusal to educate a child. Then we have those who are elected to
enforce the law saying we just kind of turned a blind eye to all the law
breaking because we don't have the resourses to deal with it? What kind of
wacky states do you all live in? Thank God Texans have the guts to protect the
children from this cult. Sounds to me like two politicians afraid to loose a
few votes or maybe a couple of mil on the side.
This is not just about illegal polygamy, it is also about a religious criminal
enterprise feeding off public taxes through US Government grants/ contracts and
public welfare assistance. I for one want the Western States - Attorney
Generals to take all actions necessary to stop this criminal enterprise of
thieves. Logan, UT
To Polygamist men only!I know many, many woman and I have never
known or ever heard a single woman that know ever say that she would live in a
polygamist relationship. Most women turn their nose up to it and make fun of it.
It's not the responsibility of any man to take the free will away from another
living being and that includes woman. I don't believe God ever intended women to
be miserable for all eternity AND WE WON'T BE. You sexiest polygamist men need
to stop placing yourselves above God and other human beings. God has NEVER NEVER
told you to make slaves of women and children. Shame on you wicked men. No woman
in her "RIGHT MIND" I repeat- RIGHT MIND! would ever want of you repulsive
"UGH! Let me see if I read this correctly. Polygamy is a crime in Utah and
Arizona, yes? Sex with a minor is sex abuse in Utah and Arizona? Slavery and
bondage is a crime in Utah and Arizona? Child abandonment is a crime in Utah and
Arizona? Welfare fraud is a crime in Utah and Arizona? Or what about child
labor, or refusal to educate a child."UGH is right, of course all
of these things are a crime, nobody doubting that, but you seem to forget that
in America, where we believe in freedom the benefit of the doubt is supposed to
go to the accused, not a politician who hates the accused (watch out if it's
you, maybe you'll stand up for your own rights).These men cannot
prosecute because they don't have an accuser or evidence, it's ILLEGAL to
prosecute without those 2 things in UT and AZ too for your info. (a prank caller
is not a victim or evidence)watch out if a politician hates you and rips
into your home at gun point, maybe you'll get the beam out of your eye and
defend the rights of others.
The 60% pregnancy rate was determined by age based on looks by a non-age expert
but merely a CPS employee. These women do not wear makeup. Typical girls wear
makeup to appear older.
Who cares if they wear makeup or not? It's a woman free agency to look her best.
Even the pioneers used certain things like berries to brighten their cheeks,
lips or whatever. It was their own choice. You can go clear back to biblical
times and the women wore makeup. So what's the deal? I think the FLDS should be
allowed to wear make up too. It's their controlling polygamist dictators who
refuse and choose for them not to wear makeup(NO FREEDOM TO THINK FOR
THEMSELVES) My 2 teenagers wear makeup and it doesn't make them look
older or like bad girls. They look good and are very happy young ladies. And
they date decent boys THEIR OWN AGE.I wear make up and I have been
married to the same man for 28 years. In fact he likes it when I wear a little
make up and IT'S MY OWN CHOICE.
I have spent the last week reading both sides of the FLDS question, from where
I stand there is MORE than enough evidence based on testimony and their own
court findings to warrent a complete undercover investigation. But you missed
it, by their own admission they do not want to investigate this. And for those
of you whining about constitutional rights, you can not break the law and hide
behind the constitution. By the way I live in Guatemala where 1% of all crime
is investigated, I thought the US was better.
May 7 National Geographic Channel-'Strong City';Texas, AZ., and Utah are
not the only states...
Obvious statement of the day: Polygamy is illegal. The problem here is that
these people were not practicing polygamy in a legal sense, as their additional
"marriages" amounted to little more than mutual pretense. A person can actually
be "spiritually wed" to as many others as he/she chooses, since this practice
carries no legal weight, and can neither be proven nor prosecuted. THIS is why
Utah and Arizona never arrested the FLDS for polygamy.
Sen. Harry Reid should alert the IRS and FBI that the West's Attorney Generals
are looking the other way on this widespread criminal enterprise. The FBI or
IRS forensic tax agents should pay all the compounds a visit. They can do an
unbiased and though investigation of racketeering and criminal tax evasion of
I lived with a farming family in Leeds, while I was a student at Dixie College.
It wasn't uncommon for girls to leave Colorado City, find a way to the
surrounding towns, like Leeds, and knock on someone's door asking for money for
a bus ticket to Phoenix, or Salt Lake City or a ride. The county sheriff was
normally called and the girls, being under 18 were taken back to their fathers.
There were no help groups who could give aid to the girls who may have been
trying to leave a marriage to an older man, or to escape such a marriage from
taking place. Many of the boys also left, and found work in St. George or just
hung around going crazy with their new found freedom. They weren't returned, in
the manner of the girls. Utah has always condoned teen marriages in the FLDS
community, and the neglecting of the unneeded young boys. Certainly there should
have been actions to stop the 12 to 16 year old girls being forced to marry old
men, and yes they were forced by their fathers to marry. Utah has been terribly
lax in protecting these girls.
Did anyone notice there is no obesity in that FLDS group? And no slutty looking
teenage girls with earrings hanging down to their shoulders, or teenage boys
with their pants falling off? There are no reports of alcohol or drug abuse
either.... so it looks like a pretty good lifestyle to me.And to
"Jenny":I've had two husbands and if I had it to do over again I might
decide to be a "sister wife". You said you had never heard a single woman say
she would live with a polygamist. Well...now you have. So settle down! Try
it...you might like it.
Re: Wildflower"Polygamy depends on definition."Plural
Parenting"?Going on everywhere - with full blessings of Family Courts.Gonna take everyone's children?"Ummm, no - just the children who
are subjected to abuse, rape, and/or other illegal activities. Isn't that
supposed to be a more important concern than adult rights? The wellbeing and
protection of our children?Debating the pros/cons of polygamy is one
thing, but blindly supporting a group of people (FLDS) who flout the laws and
take advantage of public services while putting their children in harms way is
sick and illegal! What part of that do enablers not understand?
I have a huge issue with the people that grip about the laws that may or may not
have been broken in this raid. The call may or may not have been a hoax and the
person(s) on the other end of the line may or may not have known that. The law
may or may not have used that call as an excuse to go in. However having gone in
they are sure as heck going to win it. If you are treating your community as
private then all the houses are one house, 1 big happy family. The objection
with some is not so much what they found. But that they found it at all. When
the smoke cleared we have, forced marriage of underage girls, Child Rape and
Beatings of Children, among other things. I have always been appalled by the
reaction of some to this event. They largely just wanted is the States of Utah,
Arizona and Texas to leave them alone. Because you are isolated does not make
you above the law. You can not have your own little kingdom, and Texas said Not
In My House. Good for them!!!
law 102: Texas has Common Law Marriage. Under Texas law these would be actual
marriages as they declare themselves married. More than one. Plural. Polygamous.
Illegal. Prosecuteable. You're not in Utah or Arizona anymore Dorothy.
OregonianI really doubt you are a woman talking in that matter, but if you
are you must look like my bow wow who is one ugly dog. And if you went through 2
husbands, I imagine it was probably your fault... However, you sound and write
more like a man pretending to be a woman...lol! You keep posting the same B-S
so I'm really thinking you are a polygamist man. You never use a name only the
same gripes and judgmental grumbles about how men and women look outside FLDS
cult. I am another woman who would never live plural marriage. NO WAY IN THIS
LIFE OR THE NEXT, and my husband feels the same way about it. I have as well to
my delight been married to the same good man since we married 40 years ago, and
we have 8 kids. So how does that wobble your belly.
No one outside FLDS uses the words "Spiritual Wives". So you gave yourself away.
Next time use a different choice of words.
"Child rape" and "forced marriage" are very charged terms. One should be careful
when posting such accusations. There is absolutely no proof that this particular
community engaged in such monstrous things. Neither term can be used to describe
the voluntary wedding of a girl (of legal age) and her boyfriend. Of course,
these definitions might be applicable in the Nancy Grace Dictionary.
I live 20 miles from Colorado City. Ive known many of these people.. These are
my observations..1. They want to be treated well, but dont treat
outsiders well. Just drive though their town. (I have many times)2. There
is NOTHING fundamental about fundamentalism. Not much resembles the LDS church.
In fact, try to attend church there.. You will not be allowed.. Period.. 3. VERY very few women look you in the eye, have any self esteem or
education.4. Hang around a while, you will find that they have a very
high rate of birth defects. Ask anyone working at Dixie Regional Hospital. 5. They subscribe to an idea they call "Bleeding the beast" Meaning , get all
that you can by defrauding the US Government. Never mind working to better
the world, God doesn't care about the rest the world Anyway, (Opposite to the
LDS that will help anyone in need) The whole idea is to make lots of kids, and
build a private society.. Weird.Once again, there is Nothing Fundamental
What has the AG done over the years of all these spiritual wives collecting
welfare to support their religious beliefs? That in itself is Fraud. Not just
those in the FLDS but what about the Kingston one having 100 children and
stating he could not afford to support them so the taxpayer is supporting them
and the religion. Great going AG. Young girls being forced into a life of
servitude to dirty old men. mmmmm nothing will change in Utah as they LDS
believe in polygamy and it is still practised in the spiritual sense. Thank
God that Texas had the guts to take action ad that lot moved to Texas thinking
the law allowed them to rape 14 year olds
i am a texan who is very proud right now. your politicians and lawmen seem to
be afraid of the polygamist in your midst. why?? you great big he men cannt do
anything about abuse of women and children??? why are my federal dollars paying
for the care of all those inbred children. why are we giving them food stamps
for 100 s of children that are supposed to be spiritual wives children. when the
polys men stand up and be proud on the public square and say they will provide
for each and every one of their spritiual wives and children. they are too
chicken, just like your lawmen. go to texas, see what real men are like.
.Under the law underage girls may not give consent to marry or have sex
with older men. The law recognizes that they are not mature enough to make a
rational decision at that age and are subject to being pressured or intimidated
into a decision that society recognizes in inappropriate and exploitative and
abusive. The term statutory rape applies to such relationships, regardless of
any supposed "consent" on the part of the child. When older FLDS men engage in
sham marriages with underage girls it is CHILD RAPE and any "marriages" (common
law, "spiritual", etc) are FORCED MARRIAGES.THERE IS OVERWHELMING
PROOF THAT BOTH WERE PERVASIVE IN FLDS
If there is overwhelming proof, let them criminally prosecute. There isn't
overwhelming proof, so they just persecute.You can't have it both
ways. If you want others to obey the law, then you and the authorities need to
obey the law. Texas wants to impose their standards on others while not being
bound by their own laws or the US Consitution.Everyone trying to
support Texas seems to rely on either personal opinion, lies, or unsupported
accusations. Where are the sound principles or facts. Nowhere!Until they can prove something with evidence, what Texas did was a Nazi
Genocide or a Baptist Witch Hunt. You can take you pick but those are the only
two rational labels.Prosecute all criminals the same, but don't
single people out because of their religion. Don't do an end run on the law
when you have no evidence. Tyranny will be the result if you do.
Provide just *one* piece of proof that "child rape" and "forced marriage" took
place in this Texas community. I ask for one shred of evidence, not personal
opinion based on media hysterics. A girl of age, who chooses to wed her
boyfriend, is not a raped child in a forced marriage. Chances are that not one
*child* was harmed in such a way. If any *child* was abused, may the hammer of
justice come down on the person who abused them.
I agree with most of what you said, Matthew. Not one member of this community
pressed one charge against one member of this community. No arrests were made.
No trials are pending. Two guys were charged with obstruction. Those charges
were dropped. Let's hope that evidence is not created or shaped to prosecute a
The rape will show itself with FLDS men soon or later.
In regards to "welfare fraud".Do "facts" matter?No one at the
"Yearning For Zion Ranch" was a "welfare recipient".
Mr. Shurtleff, all we ask is that you enforce the law against polygamy. You
don't need to prosecute every single polygamist. Start with half a dozen of
them, and you'll see a migration of polygamists either out of the "principle" or
to other states that have more resources than Utah or don't care about people's
extra-marital sexual activities. If you have think there's a constitutional
problem with laws against polygamy, let the courts sort that out later. We
didn't vote for you to act as legislator, enforcer and supreme court justice.
Just do your job -- prosecute our laws. Let the Utah Supreme Court and the U.S.
Supreme Court do their job. And let the Legislature do its job. If the
legislators decide to change the Utah Constitution and reverse the laws against
polygamy, let them do it, and even encourage them to do it, but enforce the law
in the meanwhile.
Bill of RightsAmendment VIIIn suits at common law, where the
value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury
shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined
in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common
law.Amendment VIIIExcessive bail shall not be required,
nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.Amendment IXThe enumeration in the Constitution, of certain
rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the
people.Amendment XThe powers not delegated to the United
States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to
the states respectively, or to the people.YES. I do
believe - as do many others - that the U.S. Bill of Rights is VERY
IMPORTANT INDEED!It "IS LAW".To remove all children and
infants from a community is ABUSE.To do so based on rumor, innuendo and
hoax IS "illegal".Child Rape is a "crime". . . where are the charges
and arrests?If this were Salem we'd all be smelling burning hair and
broom-straw by now.
Anon. True about what you say, except the Girls are underage and can't say yes,
even with a so called parents consent. Some people have trouble with the age of
the men. I have trouble with the age of the girls. If everyone was over 18 I
could care less. Age spreads are very common. My wife and I have a 15 year age
spread, and we have enjoyed for over 20 years and still do. However everyone was
well over 18 when we got started. If everyone was over 18, we could just go to
the child abuse and remove the kids for that. In 2008 we are not supposed to
beat children. As an abused child I know it is hard to break the cycle of
violence, but it can be done. Violence is a learned behavior. Violence against
Women is a learned behavior that is reinforced by the person (not always male)
getting away with it. Total dependence forces women and a few men to have to
watch and just put up with it. If he/she is beating or raping them, then he/she
is not beating or raping me. It is about the rapes and beatings.
Rule of Law: "What part of ILLEGAL do you not understand?" The part
that says, "The rule of law doesn't limit the State." That's the
truly scary part.
Logical thinker, duh!: "The only way you could prosecute bigamy or polygamy is
if the marriage were performed by authorities and/or without the knowledge of
the other wife." Law 102: "Obvious statement of the day: ... these
people were not practicing polygamy in a legal sense, as their additional
"marriages" amounted to little more than mutual pretense. [Spiritual
marriage] carries no legal weight, ...." This used to be true,
but Utah has twisted family law into a pretzel. Utah didn't
recognize "common law" marriages; now it does, and defines them such that a
young man "two-timing" with a couple of young ladies is a polygamist if the
Attorney General wants to declare him one. Utah also now says that,
after a divorce, you're still married if the AG says you are. A second marriage,
after a divorce, makes you a polygamist if the AG wants to declare you one. There's a saying, "Hard cases make bad law." Family law in Utah, as it
has been perverted to make polygamy convictions more attainable, is an
outstanding example of this. Any state Utah has "helped" re-define
its marriage and family law is likely to wind up with a similar abomination.
When did the government get the power to decide when I'm being abused?
Everything's being done in the name of some kind of "abuse" these days.
Government's a bunch of little 'ol ladies of both sexes sticking their noses
into everyone's business. Why is it the government's business who you live with
or "marry", beyond perhaps a blood test for medical reasons. What is the pursuit
of happiness. Who decides when I'm happy? The polygamists all seemed happy
enough 'til the government got involved.
Wasn't Mary in her early teens when God got her pregnant? Now there's an age
difference for you!Cultures different than ours should be respected,
just as we expect other cultures to respect ours. The FLDS custom is for older
men to have children by younger brides, who are raised not to see anything wrong
with that - just as it was for most of our contry's history, btw. The controlling power elite fostered women's "liberation" because they wanted
women "liberated" from motherhood so they could join the workforce and thereby
double the government's tax revenues. This resulted in the worst possible type
of child abuse, namely mothers abandoning their young children to be raised by
day care centers.
Re: BlueEyedDevilWe do not live in a time that is thousands of years
ago. We live in the here and now, and despite the challenge of time moving on,
it is not moral or Christian to blithely accept the impregnation of young
teenage women with the seed of any man, old or young, without their consent
and/or legality to place consent, especially when these young women are placed
in the position to choose between status quo and their own souls; that is why
there is a major problem. When any of the men you are speaking for stands up and
faces the laws of the greater society they live in (youre not in a cocoon,
sorry), and supports every single one of their offspring, without allowing them
to take welfare, and/or move to another state to dodge the laws of decency, then
you might have a leg to stand on, maybe. Until then, perpetrators of these
crimes are just that, criminals; preying on the vulnerability of innocence and
it does not matter which religion they ascribe to, it is still most certainly
I think a quote in the book "Freedom," by C.S. Lewis a famous Christian author
and apologetic really fits the condition of this nation well - "Of all
tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most
oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent
moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity
may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will
torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own
I'm going to start a writing campaign to the U.S. Dept of Justice that they
should take all necessary actions to investigate & prosecute the religious
criminal conspiracies which are financing their activities with U.S. public
taxes though U.S. grants, DOD contracts, food stamps,
Aid to families with dependent children, & other government
assistance given to these polygamous spiritual "wives" who are
posing as single mothers yet living as multiple wives in communal situations.
It is called FRAUD.Will some of you join me?
I absolutely disagree with Shurtleff. It is NEVER too far to protect children
and young women and men from abusive and oppresive situations like those at
YFZ.The state must absolutely find a way to help these
I won't join in making false accusations, Ann. None of the people in this Texas
community received welfare.Yes, protect the children. Return them to
their moms and dads, who love them.
Statutory rape laws are stupid, arbitrary and unconstitutional. They are nothing
but a tool for selective prosecution of religious groups. It really scares me
that anyone could be foolish enough to not know the difference between a 14 year
old woman and a child. That is some good brainwashing. A young woman should have
the right to get married when she wants to the husband she wants and have babies
when she wants without some no good bigoted busy bodies second guessing her. How
about a womans right to live peacefully on a farm with her family on a farm
without having to worry about the gestapo swooping in to steal her happy
children and wisk them off to the foster care Gulag.To those of you
worried about welfare fraud ...The adoption and foster care are subsidized
by your tax dollars you are now losing more money than you were before.FOSTER PARENT = FAKE PARENT ON WELFAREADOPTIVE PARENT = FAKE PARENT ON
WELFAREThe damaged children will be kicked to the curb as soon as
they turn 18.I'm disgusted that this could happen to such clean living
people. Nobody is safe if they aren't.
Leave the FLDS people alone they should be allowed to worship as they please. No
amount of self-righteousness or indignation should bring raids on people simply
because they are different from the majority church. Use your best logic to see
the freedoms assured by the constitution are being whittled away and the FLDS
matter is the prime example.