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Tad Walch: 9/11 theorist not curtailing his research
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Sitting-Bull | 10:39 p.m. May 6, 2008
Regarding the 5 dancing Israeli Mossad agents. That's well documented,
google "Killtown + Dancing Israelis".
He lists all the newspaper reports and even tv material.
Besides that there is a lengthy report from "Christopher Ketcham", and google "Winterpatriot" in conjunction with this name.
And watch the Fox series from Carl Cameron "Is Spying In And On The U.S.?"
And read Oliver Schroems "Mossad next door to Atta".
There were there to document the event.
It's logical. The second best intelligence knew all along that there were arab terrorists in the US, the perfect method to frame them and present them as patsies. The warnings that they gave were unspecific, according to Victor Ostrovsky a typically behaviour of Mossad to deflect traces.
So if someone says: "You haven't offered proof that this is anything more than twoofer fantasy, or any reason that it should matter. You described them as "infamous" earlier, but no reference to publication, quotes, or anything."
we should examine why he does so. Ignorance? Stupidity? Dis-Info?
It caused me offence.
He lists all the newspaper reports and even tv material.
Besides that there is a lengthy report from "Christopher Ketcham", and google "Winterpatriot" in conjunction with this name.
And watch the Fox series from Carl Cameron "Is Spying In And On The U.S.?"
And read Oliver Schroems "Mossad next door to Atta".
There were there to document the event.
It's logical. The second best intelligence knew all along that there were arab terrorists in the US, the perfect method to frame them and present them as patsies. The warnings that they gave were unspecific, according to Victor Ostrovsky a typically behaviour of Mossad to deflect traces.
So if someone says: "You haven't offered proof that this is anything more than twoofer fantasy, or any reason that it should matter. You described them as "infamous" earlier, but no reference to publication, quotes, or anything."
we should examine why he does so. Ignorance? Stupidity? Dis-Info?
It caused me offence.
Howtex | 11:15 p.m. May 6, 2008
Falco98,
Point A. Don't change the premise of the discussion on me. We are discussing molten steel in the debri field. Whether molten weeks/months afterward is irrelevent. The fact that at some stage it was molten is significant and can not be explained by jet fuel fires (As NIST explains in the question 13 response)
Point B. I will give you that their response could seem vague and you could interpret it that they are not admitting to any molten steel but rather hypothising (is that a word?) if in fact there was some. However you have to admit that you could interpret their statement just the opposite to mean that there was molten steel (or evidence of molten steel) that did not apply to the investigation. In fact given their other statments this seems more logical as they did investigate the area (as they stated) and they did not say that they did not see any molten steel. They stated only that they did not see any molten steel that could be explained by jet fuel fires. They saw it.
Question: How do the "eyewitness" accounts have nothing to do with eachother if they are describing the same thing?
Point A. Don't change the premise of the discussion on me. We are discussing molten steel in the debri field. Whether molten weeks/months afterward is irrelevent. The fact that at some stage it was molten is significant and can not be explained by jet fuel fires (As NIST explains in the question 13 response)
Point B. I will give you that their response could seem vague and you could interpret it that they are not admitting to any molten steel but rather hypothising (is that a word?) if in fact there was some. However you have to admit that you could interpret their statement just the opposite to mean that there was molten steel (or evidence of molten steel) that did not apply to the investigation. In fact given their other statments this seems more logical as they did investigate the area (as they stated) and they did not say that they did not see any molten steel. They stated only that they did not see any molten steel that could be explained by jet fuel fires. They saw it.
Question: How do the "eyewitness" accounts have nothing to do with eachother if they are describing the same thing?
Comments continue below
Logician | 12:07 a.m. May 7, 2008
Falco98
You obviously haven't read anything of those 5 Israeli spies, otherwise you couldn't make those idle comments. Do some basic reading and come back with some real thoughts and in particular, answers.
They knew exactly when and where the attacks were to take place. Israel has US in it pocket in all matters military. Why the charade of weeks of intense questioning, if the results were to remain secret for the rest of time, for "no reason"?
Did they advise US authorities regarding the impending attack? Or did they hope that such an attack would drive US even closer to their needs and support? They were picked up only because a woman with binoculars saw them rejoicing in the attack and informed police. It is a lot smellier than you could possibly imagine. Give it some serious thought, if you have the capacity.
You obviously haven't read anything of those 5 Israeli spies, otherwise you couldn't make those idle comments. Do some basic reading and come back with some real thoughts and in particular, answers.
They knew exactly when and where the attacks were to take place. Israel has US in it pocket in all matters military. Why the charade of weeks of intense questioning, if the results were to remain secret for the rest of time, for "no reason"?
Did they advise US authorities regarding the impending attack? Or did they hope that such an attack would drive US even closer to their needs and support? They were picked up only because a woman with binoculars saw them rejoicing in the attack and informed police. It is a lot smellier than you could possibly imagine. Give it some serious thought, if you have the capacity.
Logician | 12:29 a.m. May 7, 2008
Falco98,
In all the footage I have watched of that school room event, I saw no one from his security group other than his aide Card approach him and this was only for a couple of seconds. No time for anything other than basic advice of the 2nd plane strike. Or did he say "This is gag, only for the cameras, sir"?
Try to understand that Bush is a trained fighter pilot and therefore capable of instant decision making. Why not so in this catastrophic event? Are you not the slightest suspicious. Are you a relative? Do you work for him? What is the binding link?
In all the footage I have watched of that school room event, I saw no one from his security group other than his aide Card approach him and this was only for a couple of seconds. No time for anything other than basic advice of the 2nd plane strike. Or did he say "This is gag, only for the cameras, sir"?
Try to understand that Bush is a trained fighter pilot and therefore capable of instant decision making. Why not so in this catastrophic event? Are you not the slightest suspicious. Are you a relative? Do you work for him? What is the binding link?
Inside Job | 1:25 a.m. May 7, 2008
A significant obstacle of the money powers to complete domination of all world
governments and peoples is the assertion by Americans of freedoms in the
Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights, which freedoms have largely
been preserved (at least in form) by the Constitution, until recently.
A very effective tool in manipulating people into voluntarily sacrificing liberties is to manufacture a common threat and convince them that security is more important than liberty, that control must be consolidated in the hands of a few to enable them to effectively combat the perceived common threat, thereby enabling the rulers to falsely argue the need to eliminate current liberties in order to preserve future liberties.
While everyone squabbles about technical details of the crime, or the need for an �event� to justify an oil war or fighting Islam for Israel, one of the most diabolical aspects goes unmentioned - the misnamed Patriot Act, with its thousands of pages of prewritten enslavement language, which was immediately slammed through Congress when patriotic indignation was at its height, without even allowing the opportunity to read it. This is the real story. Americans were tricked into sacrificing freedom for protection from an imaginary foe.
A very effective tool in manipulating people into voluntarily sacrificing liberties is to manufacture a common threat and convince them that security is more important than liberty, that control must be consolidated in the hands of a few to enable them to effectively combat the perceived common threat, thereby enabling the rulers to falsely argue the need to eliminate current liberties in order to preserve future liberties.
While everyone squabbles about technical details of the crime, or the need for an �event� to justify an oil war or fighting Islam for Israel, one of the most diabolical aspects goes unmentioned - the misnamed Patriot Act, with its thousands of pages of prewritten enslavement language, which was immediately slammed through Congress when patriotic indignation was at its height, without even allowing the opportunity to read it. This is the real story. Americans were tricked into sacrificing freedom for protection from an imaginary foe.
Loss of Freedom | 1:49 a.m. May 7, 2008
9-11 was devised to lay the foundation for the takeover of America.
Logician | 3:23 a.m. May 7, 2008
Falco98
I understand there are several outward looking surveillance cameras on each of the Pentagon's 5 walls.
Even at 500 MPH, an oncoming plane would register n at your suggested slow frame speed of 2/sec. The plane would travel only about 360 feet in each frame TOWARDS THE CAMERA.
Why do you mention only the tired old pix we have all seen, taken by a car park camera which was looking 90 degrees on to the approach path. Useless.
Were the others switched off for the occasion, in the same way air surveillance was conveniently turned off for the day?? If you are not the least bit curious, you must be a Govt. paid responder.
I understand there are several outward looking surveillance cameras on each of the Pentagon's 5 walls.
Even at 500 MPH, an oncoming plane would register n at your suggested slow frame speed of 2/sec. The plane would travel only about 360 feet in each frame TOWARDS THE CAMERA.
Why do you mention only the tired old pix we have all seen, taken by a car park camera which was looking 90 degrees on to the approach path. Useless.
Were the others switched off for the occasion, in the same way air surveillance was conveniently turned off for the day?? If you are not the least bit curious, you must be a Govt. paid responder.
Logician | 3:47 a.m. May 7, 2008
Inside Job,
You are so right. Hitler used the false foe trick very successfully in Germany ... gaining total control over the entire population. Even had children reporting on their parents, for example. Lets hope Bush will NOT be permitted to have similar interim success.
"Ignore history, then we are destined to repeat it."
You are so right. Hitler used the false foe trick very successfully in Germany ... gaining total control over the entire population. Even had children reporting on their parents, for example. Lets hope Bush will NOT be permitted to have similar interim success.
"Ignore history, then we are destined to repeat it."
Sitting-Bull | 5:21 a.m. May 7, 2008
The argument that the conditions in the wreckage were irrelevant is just another
tricky point to sidestep hard questions. What should have heaten the pile
despite ongoing fire-fighting-operations and millions of gallons of water
sprayed on the rubble-pile? Don't say that there was some kind of chemical
mixture primeval soup heating up itself. Whatever was molten in the pile was
molten in the towers demise. Period.
Underground fires burn low generally, because the lack of oxygen. And lack of new combustible material.
But pools of molten steel, once molten, can remain hot and molten for a long time like magma in a vulcano.
Underground fires burn low generally, because the lack of oxygen. And lack of new combustible material.
But pools of molten steel, once molten, can remain hot and molten for a long time like magma in a vulcano.
Logician | 5:46 a.m. May 7, 2008
Inside Job ... Well said.
Hitler perfected the art of using a straw foe to unite the German people to his wishes. It didn't do him any good in the long run ... but how many millions of lives did it take before he was undone.
"Ignore history and be destined to repeat it."
Hitler perfected the art of using a straw foe to unite the German people to his wishes. It didn't do him any good in the long run ... but how many millions of lives did it take before he was undone.
"Ignore history and be destined to repeat it."
StrawDog | 6:26 a.m. May 7, 2008
- - - "9-11 was devised to lay the foundation for the takeover of
America" - - -
When is this supposed to happen?
When is this supposed to happen?
Loss of Freedom | 7:44 a.m. May 7, 2008
It's already well under way.
StrawDog | 8:07 a.m. May 7, 2008
- - - �Underground fires burn low generally, because the
lack of oxygen. And lack of new combustible material.� - -
-
Coal fires quite often produce temperatures in excess of 500c at the surface. Underground, they are much hotter and the amount of oxygen is severely limited.
Where do you think the heat goes?
As for the available fuel, no one is pushing more coal underground to keep the fires burning, they are burning with the fuel available to them. just as the underground fires in the ground zero debris pile were burning with the fuel available to them.
You seem to be under the common truther misconception that fires can not exceed certain temperatures. This is often expressed by the comment �jet fuel can not burn hotter than xxx C degrees.� This is simply not true.
Coal fires quite often produce temperatures in excess of 500c at the surface. Underground, they are much hotter and the amount of oxygen is severely limited.
Where do you think the heat goes?
As for the available fuel, no one is pushing more coal underground to keep the fires burning, they are burning with the fuel available to them. just as the underground fires in the ground zero debris pile were burning with the fuel available to them.
You seem to be under the common truther misconception that fires can not exceed certain temperatures. This is often expressed by the comment �jet fuel can not burn hotter than xxx C degrees.� This is simply not true.
Anonymous | 8:12 a.m. May 7, 2008
- - - "But pools of molten steel, once molten, can remain hot and molten
for a long time like magma in a vulcano." - - -
Why do you think that magma can stay hot for so long, it's not becasue of the inital temperature, it is because the heat transfer underground is so slow because the heat has no where to go.
Heat is heat, whether it is produced by molten lava or by an underground fire. If it has no where to go, then it has no where to go. With molten lava, there is no new energy being added. With an underground fire, the combustion process is producing more heat all the time.
Why do you think that magma can stay hot for so long, it's not becasue of the inital temperature, it is because the heat transfer underground is so slow because the heat has no where to go.
Heat is heat, whether it is produced by molten lava or by an underground fire. If it has no where to go, then it has no where to go. With molten lava, there is no new energy being added. With an underground fire, the combustion process is producing more heat all the time.
StrawDog | 8:15 a.m. May 7, 2008
- - - �The fact that at some stage it was molten is
significant and can not be explained by jet fuel fires� - -
-
Another one who fails to understand the difference between heat and temperature.
Another one who fails to understand the difference between heat and temperature.
Strawdog | 8:25 a.m. May 7, 2008
- - - -"What kind of energy could explain the physics benid human bones
becoming fragmented into pieces a 16th of an inch in size, then expelled from
the inside of a collapsing skyscraper with such force as to land upon the
rooftops of other skyscrapers? It boggles the mind to think that pancaking
floors could be the explanation for this phenomenon." - - -
The fact that you are unable to comprehend the enourmous potential energy stored in a building and how that energy is released durring a collapse, has no significance whatsoever on whether that collapse was a result of impact and fire damage or not.
The fact that you are unable to comprehend the enourmous potential energy stored in a building and how that energy is released durring a collapse, has no significance whatsoever on whether that collapse was a result of impact and fire damage or not.
StrawDog | 8:27 a.m. May 7, 2008
Loss of Freedom Wrote: - - - "It's already well under way."- - -
How so? examples please.
How so? examples please.
StrawDog | 9:39 a.m. May 7, 2008
- - - "the misnamed Patriot Act, with its thousands of pages of prewritten
enslavement language." - - -
Please provide an example of how you are being enslaved.
Please provide an example of how you are being enslaved.
Alan Williams | 12:50 p.m. May 7, 2008
Erik,
I think you meant NIST NCSTAR 1-6B, not D? Is there a statement as to the deflection being insufficient for pull-in? Remember, the conditions for the test were not necessarily entirely reflective of the real world conditions in the towers.
"Assembly No. 1 was fire tested .......The test was continued for 116 minutes and terminated when collapse ..... was imminent....." -- pg 92
This was with fireproofing intact, although later on (75min) THE FIREPROOFING STARTED TO FALL OFF. (pg 98) Could that be the smoking gun, as Manning theorized? The part* that Jones DELIBERATELY DELETED? Could this be the REAL "truth" of the matter?
*"Rather, theory has it, the subsequent contents fires attacking the QUESTIONABLY FIREPROOFED LIGHTWEIGHT TRUSSES and load-bearing columns directly caused the collapses in an alarmingly short time."
Also, down on page 104:
"The above result raises the question of whether or not a fire rating based on the ASTM E 119 performance of a 17 ft span floor assembly is scalable to a larger floor system such as found in the WTC towers where spans ranged from 35 ft to 60 ft."
I'm afraid I don't see any significant contradictions here. What am I missing?
I think you meant NIST NCSTAR 1-6B, not D? Is there a statement as to the deflection being insufficient for pull-in? Remember, the conditions for the test were not necessarily entirely reflective of the real world conditions in the towers.
"Assembly No. 1 was fire tested .......The test was continued for 116 minutes and terminated when collapse ..... was imminent....." -- pg 92
This was with fireproofing intact, although later on (75min) THE FIREPROOFING STARTED TO FALL OFF. (pg 98) Could that be the smoking gun, as Manning theorized? The part* that Jones DELIBERATELY DELETED? Could this be the REAL "truth" of the matter?
*"Rather, theory has it, the subsequent contents fires attacking the QUESTIONABLY FIREPROOFED LIGHTWEIGHT TRUSSES and load-bearing columns directly caused the collapses in an alarmingly short time."
Also, down on page 104:
"The above result raises the question of whether or not a fire rating based on the ASTM E 119 performance of a 17 ft span floor assembly is scalable to a larger floor system such as found in the WTC towers where spans ranged from 35 ft to 60 ft."
I'm afraid I don't see any significant contradictions here. What am I missing?
Loss of Freedom | 1:41 p.m. May 7, 2008
Look what they did to take control of transportation simply based upon the lie
of box cutters. They now have near complete control of population movement
through the skies.
Look at what they did to gain expansive control of money flows and arbitrary decision making about sources and uses of funds and the privacy concerns of invading bank accounts and personal information.
Look at legalized torture and the elimination of habeus corpus, including extensive wire-tapping without a warrant.
Look at the extinction of posse comitatus, with the military having control over local police.
Look at enemy combatants and home-grown terrorist legislation and the growth of the terror watch list.
The list goes on and on...including secret executive orders designed to provide full dictatorial powers to the president/DHS/FEMA.
The main purpose behind 9-11 was to set the perceptual stage necessary for the enactment of legislation required to dramatically accelerate the elimination of freedom in America, and by extension, the rest of the world. It was a massive power grab. Much of the impact will be seen in the future, as the foundation was laid for the masters of incrementalism, imperceptible to the masses, to march toward their goal of world conquest.
Look at what they did to gain expansive control of money flows and arbitrary decision making about sources and uses of funds and the privacy concerns of invading bank accounts and personal information.
Look at legalized torture and the elimination of habeus corpus, including extensive wire-tapping without a warrant.
Look at the extinction of posse comitatus, with the military having control over local police.
Look at enemy combatants and home-grown terrorist legislation and the growth of the terror watch list.
The list goes on and on...including secret executive orders designed to provide full dictatorial powers to the president/DHS/FEMA.
The main purpose behind 9-11 was to set the perceptual stage necessary for the enactment of legislation required to dramatically accelerate the elimination of freedom in America, and by extension, the rest of the world. It was a massive power grab. Much of the impact will be seen in the future, as the foundation was laid for the masters of incrementalism, imperceptible to the masses, to march toward their goal of world conquest.
StrawDog | 1:54 p.m. May 7, 2008
- - - "They now have near complete control of population movement through
the skies."- - -
Er, no. People can fly anywhere they want to just as before.
Er, no. People can fly anywhere they want to just as before.
StrawDog | 1:56 p.m. May 7, 2008
- - - "Look at what they did to gain expansive control of money flows and
arbitrary decision making about sources and uses of funds and the privacy
concerns of invading bank accounts and personal information." - - -
Regulatory control of the economy has been around for a long time. Are you saying that we should abandon it?
Regulatory control of the economy has been around for a long time. Are you saying that we should abandon it?
StrawDog | 2:00 p.m. May 7, 2008
- - - �Look at legalized torture� - -
-
How has this affected you? Have you been tortured? Do you know anyone who has? Can you name an American citizen who has?
Consider the fate of Edna Cintron, facing the pospect of certain death.
How has this affected you? Have you been tortured? Do you know anyone who has? Can you name an American citizen who has?
Consider the fate of Edna Cintron, facing the pospect of certain death.
StrawDog | 2:06 p.m. May 7, 2008
- - - �the elimination of habeus corpus.� - - -
Habeus corpus has not been eliminated, it has simply not been extended to enemy combatants, which it never was in the past.
kellysgarden | 2:09 p.m. May 7, 2008
Fragmented human bones, iron spherules, pulverized concrete, molten metal in the
sub-basements lasting for weeks - I don't think Strawdog's explanation
of potential energy locked up inside a building can quite get my mind to think
this explanation is logical.
Loss of Freedom | 2:15 p.m. May 7, 2008
StrawDog, why are you so intent on defending the perpe"traitors" with
simplistic rhetoric and incomplete logic? You appear to have no desire to
sincerely analyze the evidence and do not deserve further dialogue unless you
can prove otherwise. You appear to be nothing more than a paid accomplice
trying to defend the hand that feeds you. I hope I'm wrong. What is your
motive?
Falco98 | 5:07 p.m. May 7, 2008
"Logician" wrote:
"I understand there are several outward looking surveillance cameras on each of the Pentagon's 5 walls."
Source? you saying you "understand" something is far different from proof that there is. As far as I've heard, the pentagon cameras aimed in any way to view the incoming jet were the "90 degree parking lot cams" you mentioned. They show a plane impacting, even if it's hard to make out. Then there's the little matter of over a hundred eyewitnesses who all observed the same, plus hundreds of pieces of airplane debris, both on the lawn and in the crash site.
Oh yeah, and the little matter of every single victim aboard the flight being positively identified via DNA tests. And the FDRs being recovered and used.
So once again: the fact that there are no "better" videos of the plane striking the pentagon, proves WHAT exactly?
"I understand there are several outward looking surveillance cameras on each of the Pentagon's 5 walls."
Source? you saying you "understand" something is far different from proof that there is. As far as I've heard, the pentagon cameras aimed in any way to view the incoming jet were the "90 degree parking lot cams" you mentioned. They show a plane impacting, even if it's hard to make out. Then there's the little matter of over a hundred eyewitnesses who all observed the same, plus hundreds of pieces of airplane debris, both on the lawn and in the crash site.
Oh yeah, and the little matter of every single victim aboard the flight being positively identified via DNA tests. And the FDRs being recovered and used.
So once again: the fact that there are no "better" videos of the plane striking the pentagon, proves WHAT exactly?
Falco98 | 5:13 p.m. May 7, 2008
Howtex wrote:
"Question: How do the "eyewitness" accounts have nothing to do with eachother if they are describing the same thing?"
I'm speaking of the trend in the truth movement to quote-mine different quotes by different people, often talking about vastly different things, and string them together in a way such as to essentially fabricate something new.
For example, quotes about "streams of molten metal pouring out of the side of the building" (and photographs thereof) are often used in the same paragraph (or sentence) with other quotes by workers referring to red-hot scrap iron they were removing from the site well afterwards. These two phenomena are widely different (one is talking about before the buildings even collapsed), but they are strung together to try to make it seem as if there were "rivers of melted steel running under the site", which is simply false. Do some research, any at all, and you will find for yourself that these claims are unsubstantiated, and (very) often trumped-up on truther sites to make things seem different from how they really were.
Why would they do this if the "truth" is really on their side?
"Question: How do the "eyewitness" accounts have nothing to do with eachother if they are describing the same thing?"
I'm speaking of the trend in the truth movement to quote-mine different quotes by different people, often talking about vastly different things, and string them together in a way such as to essentially fabricate something new.
For example, quotes about "streams of molten metal pouring out of the side of the building" (and photographs thereof) are often used in the same paragraph (or sentence) with other quotes by workers referring to red-hot scrap iron they were removing from the site well afterwards. These two phenomena are widely different (one is talking about before the buildings even collapsed), but they are strung together to try to make it seem as if there were "rivers of melted steel running under the site", which is simply false. Do some research, any at all, and you will find for yourself that these claims are unsubstantiated, and (very) often trumped-up on truther sites to make things seem different from how they really were.
Why would they do this if the "truth" is really on their side?
Falco98 | 5:18 p.m. May 7, 2008
Howtex wrote:
"Don't change the premise of the discussion on me. We are discussing molten steel in the debri field. Whether molten weeks/months afterward is irrelevent. The fact that at some stage it was molten is significant and can not be explained by jet fuel fires (As NIST explains in the question 13 response)"
But this is where your argument fails. You are using arguments I already *know to be false* to try and convince me that the "molten steel" claims were true. They are not. There is no merit to them. For reasons I explained in my comment just-now, and other reasons I don't have space or patience to enumerate here, the various and inconsistent claims of "rivers of melted steel" by the truthers have been soundly and numerously debunked. Nobody claims steel melted (to a liquid state) before the buildings collapsed, and nobody claims it melted *afterwards* either, except for the truthers, who have been shown repeatedly to use dishonest and manipulative tactics to make things seem different than they really were.
"Don't change the premise of the discussion on me. We are discussing molten steel in the debri field. Whether molten weeks/months afterward is irrelevent. The fact that at some stage it was molten is significant and can not be explained by jet fuel fires (As NIST explains in the question 13 response)"
But this is where your argument fails. You are using arguments I already *know to be false* to try and convince me that the "molten steel" claims were true. They are not. There is no merit to them. For reasons I explained in my comment just-now, and other reasons I don't have space or patience to enumerate here, the various and inconsistent claims of "rivers of melted steel" by the truthers have been soundly and numerously debunked. Nobody claims steel melted (to a liquid state) before the buildings collapsed, and nobody claims it melted *afterwards* either, except for the truthers, who have been shown repeatedly to use dishonest and manipulative tactics to make things seem different than they really were.
AAron H. | 8:37 p.m. May 7, 2008
Iron micro-spheres are often used in security ink to make things like checks and
bonds readable by magnetic readers as well as prevent counterfeiting or forgery.
WTC 1, 2 and 7 were stacked top to bottom with banks and investment firms,
exactly the kind of organizations that would have large amounts of security ink
printed documents on hand.
The woman who provided Steven Jones his initial samples of WTC dust has a boyfriend who is a welder. His clothes and skin and by extension her apartment would have been heavily contaminated by iron micro-spheres.
Two sources of iron micro-spheres. one inside the WTC, the other a source of contamination of the samples. Neither of which require extraordinary or bizarre explanations.
The spherule issue is essentially dead on arrival.
The woman who provided Steven Jones his initial samples of WTC dust has a boyfriend who is a welder. His clothes and skin and by extension her apartment would have been heavily contaminated by iron micro-spheres.
Two sources of iron micro-spheres. one inside the WTC, the other a source of contamination of the samples. Neither of which require extraordinary or bizarre explanations.
The spherule issue is essentially dead on arrival.
thedman113 | 8:51 p.m. May 7, 2008
"Regarding the 5 dancing Israeli Mossad agents. That's well
documented, google "Killtown + Dancing Israelis"."
I googled that. It didn't offer any sort of proof that these guys were Mossad agents or had advance knowledge of the attacks. That they were filming to "document the event" is of no surprise, since that's what everyone who was pointing a camera at the WTC that day was doing.
I googled that. It didn't offer any sort of proof that these guys were Mossad agents or had advance knowledge of the attacks. That they were filming to "document the event" is of no surprise, since that's what everyone who was pointing a camera at the WTC that day was doing.
thedman113 | 8:52 p.m. May 7, 2008
"Thank you, Daniel -- why indeed did three WTC skyscrapers fall at
essentially free-fall speed"
Why do you lie and say they fell at free fall speed when you know they didn't?
Why do you lie and say they fell at free fall speed when you know they didn't?
thedman113 | 8:55 p.m. May 7, 2008
"Fragmented human bones, iron spherules, pulverized concrete, molten metal
in the sub-basements lasting for weeks - I don't think Strawdog's
explanation of potential energy locked up inside a building can quite get my
mind to think this explanation is logical."
You don't think the potential energy stored in a 110-story building is enough to fragment human bones or pulverize concrete? And there were no pools of molten steel, so that's out.
You don't think the potential energy stored in a 110-story building is enough to fragment human bones or pulverize concrete? And there were no pools of molten steel, so that's out.
thedman113 | 9:04 p.m. May 7, 2008
Jones' article was hardly published in a peer-reviewed journal. He paid
$900 and submitted the names of 4 hand-picked "peers" to review it for
him, and this sham "journal" accepted that. It's like being
included in Who's Who Among American High School Students. Prestigious.
Metergramliter | 9:14 p.m. May 7, 2008
Yikes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AAron H. | 9:39 p.m. May 7, 2008
Wow... did some one bring up Killtown?
Killtown (a researcher for the Loose Change films) is on record as having claimed that jews faked the Holocaust to guilt the world into giving them Israel back.
Given that Deseret is owned and largely read by mormons, who feel a strong affinity for the jewish people having once been the targets of a near-Holocaust of our own, hate-driven religious bigots such as Killtown are not likely to be well recieved here.
Killtown (a researcher for the Loose Change films) is on record as having claimed that jews faked the Holocaust to guilt the world into giving them Israel back.
Given that Deseret is owned and largely read by mormons, who feel a strong affinity for the jewish people having once been the targets of a near-Holocaust of our own, hate-driven religious bigots such as Killtown are not likely to be well recieved here.
Logician | 9:53 p.m. May 7, 2008
Falco98
"As far as I have heard?"
That is a more unsubstantiated statement than you claimed I used about the array of cameras which are outward looking. In my case I have read it ... in your case you have "HEARD" it. From whom?
Do you really believe, from hear say, that the car park cameras were the only security means watching out for the most protected building in the whole World?
There have been wide ranging calls for more footages of the event. Always the replies are "Classified information" ... Why? What's to hide? Who's being protected? Certainly not VP Cheney, who loudly proclaimed that the plane heading towards Pentagon was NOT to be shot down. Several times. I have read this from witnesses ... not "heard it from ....."
I have never read an official reply stating that there aren't any other videos. Have you??? Do tell.
I am not concerned as to whether or not it was a plane. I know it was. It was seen on a screen in the White House Bunker and reported to Cheney several times as its distance closed. Why do you draw these needless, waste of time and space, "red herrings?"
"As far as I have heard?"
That is a more unsubstantiated statement than you claimed I used about the array of cameras which are outward looking. In my case I have read it ... in your case you have "HEARD" it. From whom?
Do you really believe, from hear say, that the car park cameras were the only security means watching out for the most protected building in the whole World?
There have been wide ranging calls for more footages of the event. Always the replies are "Classified information" ... Why? What's to hide? Who's being protected? Certainly not VP Cheney, who loudly proclaimed that the plane heading towards Pentagon was NOT to be shot down. Several times. I have read this from witnesses ... not "heard it from ....."
I have never read an official reply stating that there aren't any other videos. Have you??? Do tell.
I am not concerned as to whether or not it was a plane. I know it was. It was seen on a screen in the White House Bunker and reported to Cheney several times as its distance closed. Why do you draw these needless, waste of time and space, "red herrings?"
Falco98 | 10:21 p.m. May 7, 2008
"Logician" wrote:
"Why do you draw these needless, waste of time and space, "red herrings?""
This question would best be directed at you. You numerously cite well-known myths (the 'stand-down order'), and arguments from incredulity ("how COULD there be no other security cameras pointing towards the open sky at every angle?"), but you fail to give any reason for why it's important. You fail to give any reason why the videos that have been released are undermined somehow by the non-release of videos you only *think* might exist (several have been released, from FOIA requests -- and yet you claim somehow that none have been released?). You fail to explain how any of this has any relevance. You're arguing for the sake of argument, with no reason or direction, with nothing to prove, no alternative theory as to what DID happen, and nothing to substantiate your assertions, all the while accusing me of the same.
In short, you fail plain and simple.
"Why do you draw these needless, waste of time and space, "red herrings?""
This question would best be directed at you. You numerously cite well-known myths (the 'stand-down order'), and arguments from incredulity ("how COULD there be no other security cameras pointing towards the open sky at every angle?"), but you fail to give any reason for why it's important. You fail to give any reason why the videos that have been released are undermined somehow by the non-release of videos you only *think* might exist (several have been released, from FOIA requests -- and yet you claim somehow that none have been released?). You fail to explain how any of this has any relevance. You're arguing for the sake of argument, with no reason or direction, with nothing to prove, no alternative theory as to what DID happen, and nothing to substantiate your assertions, all the while accusing me of the same.
In short, you fail plain and simple.
AAron H. | 10:34 p.m. May 7, 2008
Logician, you aren't going to get anything out of those cameras.
Those cameras run at 1 frame per second to save space and are designed to catch people breaking into cars. Not ground hugging airplanes screaming along at 500 miles per hour.
Those cameras run at 1 frame per second to save space and are designed to catch people breaking into cars. Not ground hugging airplanes screaming along at 500 miles per hour.
Loss of Freedom | 10:45 p.m. May 7, 2008
Thank you for your efforts and well-researched viewpoints, Logician. It's
obvious several parties in this discussion are simply trying to counter every
argument to continue to prevent the people from understanding the truth.
When one is committed to deception, there's always some flimsy evidence, argument or spin that can be manufactured to discredit or cast doubt upon every individual piece of legitimate evidence. However, when an honest, truth-seeking person analyzes all of the data together, it's impossible to come to any other conclusion than that a cover-up exists.
In my opinion, Building 7 alone is irrefutable evidence of this, especially when admitted to by Silverstein himself on camera the very day it happened.
How could he say he "made the decision to pull" the building if it weren't pre-wired for demolition with foreknowledge of what would transpire? Impossible to wire it within hours, especially when they would have had no expectation that it could fall because it was not hit by a plane. The firefighters gave testimony they were told to pull back prior to a countdown to pull the building. Those who argue about this either don't want to know the truth or want the truth hidden.
When one is committed to deception, there's always some flimsy evidence, argument or spin that can be manufactured to discredit or cast doubt upon every individual piece of legitimate evidence. However, when an honest, truth-seeking person analyzes all of the data together, it's impossible to come to any other conclusion than that a cover-up exists.
In my opinion, Building 7 alone is irrefutable evidence of this, especially when admitted to by Silverstein himself on camera the very day it happened.
How could he say he "made the decision to pull" the building if it weren't pre-wired for demolition with foreknowledge of what would transpire? Impossible to wire it within hours, especially when they would have had no expectation that it could fall because it was not hit by a plane. The firefighters gave testimony they were told to pull back prior to a countdown to pull the building. Those who argue about this either don't want to know the truth or want the truth hidden.
Sitting-Bull | 11:06 p.m. May 7, 2008
Is there a link from Freepers world to this comment section or why do we have so
many spin and lies here?
They were there to document the event, with a van with traces of explosives and highfiving. Question: How many other people there were highfiving as the Towers were attacked?
To bring up false antisemitism claims is an old trick to dismiss hard facts.
As to the spin that there was no molten metal. There are dozens of eyewitnesses accounts, even from one demolition team.
Google "Why was there Molten Metal Under Ground Zero for Months after 9/11?"
�In the first few weeks, sometimes when a worker would pull a steel beam from the wreckage, the end of the beam would be dripping molten steel.�
I once even read a similar statement from a clean-up contractor on his website, and I'll find it again for you, I promise.
What you said that we took these statements out of context is nothing more than twisting words.
They were there to document the event, with a van with traces of explosives and highfiving. Question: How many other people there were highfiving as the Towers were attacked?
To bring up false antisemitism claims is an old trick to dismiss hard facts.
As to the spin that there was no molten metal. There are dozens of eyewitnesses accounts, even from one demolition team.
Google "Why was there Molten Metal Under Ground Zero for Months after 9/11?"
�In the first few weeks, sometimes when a worker would pull a steel beam from the wreckage, the end of the beam would be dripping molten steel.�
I once even read a similar statement from a clean-up contractor on his website, and I'll find it again for you, I promise.
What you said that we took these statements out of context is nothing more than twisting words.
Loss of Freedom | 11:24 p.m. May 7, 2008
StrawDog, I don�t personally have to experience torture or
have the right of habeas corpus violated to see what is happening. I also
don�t have to be prevented from flying to realize the
terror watch list is growing and that airport �security
screening� is gradually expanding.
Isn�t it wise to try to anticipate and prevent, instead of
waiting until it�s too late to do anything about it.
Loss of Freedom | 11:27 p.m. May 7, 2008
StrawDog, just look at history. When have rulers voluntarily exercised
self-constraint when they possess the full authority of government without
checks and balances? Governments naturally tend toward dictatorship, and fear
is one powerful way to motivate people to justify handing power to a dictator.
We�ve already been changed incrementally in perception and
function from a constitutional republic to a democracy, which is really becoming
little more than a disguised dictatorship that we are informed is our duty to
export to the world, whether the world wants it or not.
Every time a sophisticated law is enacted it provides the opportunity through future sophistry to apply it in additional ways to eliminate another liberty. They just incrementally change a word here or a definition there, create a legal precedent here and apply it there, and soon the original purpose behind the legislation has been turned around completely. What was intended to protect the people from their supposed enemy is now the tool to classify them as enemies.
Every time a sophisticated law is enacted it provides the opportunity through future sophistry to apply it in additional ways to eliminate another liberty. They just incrementally change a word here or a definition there, create a legal precedent here and apply it there, and soon the original purpose behind the legislation has been turned around completely. What was intended to protect the people from their supposed enemy is now the tool to classify them as enemies.
Dr. Steven Jones | 12:38 a.m. May 8, 2008
thedman113 wrote: "Jones' article was hardly published in a
peer-reviewed journal. He paid $900 and submitted the names of 4 hand-picked
"peers" to review it for him, and this sham "journal"
accepted that. It's like being included in Who's Who Among American
High School Students. Prestigious."
I did not pay $900. The paper was published in a peer-reviewed journal. Like many technical journals, OCEJ requests the names of suggested reviewers who should know the subject matter, but the editors are NOT obliged to use any of the suggestions. The reviewers were anonymous and I do not know who they were (also conventional). The Bentham Open Journal series has been commended by many, including Nobel laureates. (google Bentham Nobel)
The statements made by this fellow are ill-founded, and as I have shown, misleading.
(Note that I have not kept up with all the comments here. But I invite anyone with serious concerns about the published paper to write a response paper and submit to the same or another peer-reviewed journal. And we will respond -- again, peer-reviewed. That is the way of solid science. Not nonsense statements!)
I did not pay $900. The paper was published in a peer-reviewed journal. Like many technical journals, OCEJ requests the names of suggested reviewers who should know the subject matter, but the editors are NOT obliged to use any of the suggestions. The reviewers were anonymous and I do not know who they were (also conventional). The Bentham Open Journal series has been commended by many, including Nobel laureates. (google Bentham Nobel)
The statements made by this fellow are ill-founded, and as I have shown, misleading.
(Note that I have not kept up with all the comments here. But I invite anyone with serious concerns about the published paper to write a response paper and submit to the same or another peer-reviewed journal. And we will respond -- again, peer-reviewed. That is the way of solid science. Not nonsense statements!)
Inside Job | 1:15 a.m. May 8, 2008
Logician,
It doesn't really matter if Bush or another puppet president ultimately pulls the final trigger. The real power lies with those who control the money through the central banks and massive private trusts of the world. They will decide when the proper time is to administer the final fatal blow.
The orchestrated collapse is happening before our eyes with the run up of all commodities simultaneous with the elimination of true liquidity from the markets. It's the squeeze play designed to bring us to our knees.
The majority of our leaders simply do the bidding of their money masters, who allow them temporarily to have a semblance of power and prestige in exchange for their allegiance. They share in the spoils and are really not concerned about representing the best interests of the people. That's why very little they do seems to make much sense. The sooner people realize this, the sooner we can be restored to liberty.
We need to support people who, like Dr. Jones, love the Constitution and are willing to sacrifice to preserve it. This is what our founding fathers did. This is what we must do to stay free.
It doesn't really matter if Bush or another puppet president ultimately pulls the final trigger. The real power lies with those who control the money through the central banks and massive private trusts of the world. They will decide when the proper time is to administer the final fatal blow.
The orchestrated collapse is happening before our eyes with the run up of all commodities simultaneous with the elimination of true liquidity from the markets. It's the squeeze play designed to bring us to our knees.
The majority of our leaders simply do the bidding of their money masters, who allow them temporarily to have a semblance of power and prestige in exchange for their allegiance. They share in the spoils and are really not concerned about representing the best interests of the people. That's why very little they do seems to make much sense. The sooner people realize this, the sooner we can be restored to liberty.
We need to support people who, like Dr. Jones, love the Constitution and are willing to sacrifice to preserve it. This is what our founding fathers did. This is what we must do to stay free.
AAron H. | 1:50 a.m. May 8, 2008
Dr. Jones, since it appears you are watching, in the article being discussed
here, you focus almost exclusively on one sentence from NISTs rejection of your
request for correction. One which by itself, out of context, appears to imply
that NIST can't explain the towers collapse. Yet further reading of the
letter itself shows that NIST does know what initiated the collapse.
In your interview with Tad Walch, you also left out that steel loses nearly all its structural strength at 1000 degrees celcius.
Does this strike you as "being honest in your dealings with your fellow man".
In your interview with Tad Walch, you also left out that steel loses nearly all its structural strength at 1000 degrees celcius.
Does this strike you as "being honest in your dealings with your fellow man".
Logician | 2:09 a.m. May 8, 2008
Falco98, replying to Howtex.
Have you not seen pix and video of streams of molten Steel flowing from the corner of a Tower before it collapsed? Go find and learn. Don't say it is Aluminium from the plane, melted by kerosene. Wrong colour ... visit any foundry.
Have you not seen molten Steel dripping from the ends of columns drawn from the depths of those 3 rubble piles? Go find and learn with your own eyes. Again, it is not Aluminium, as you will learn from your visit to a foundry. Distinctly wrong colour.
There you are, expressed in two separate paragraphs. Now do you understand? You have had almost 7 years to find these pix for yourself. What a pity URLs are banned from this site. How much easier it would be to educate you.
Have you not seen pix and video of streams of molten Steel flowing from the corner of a Tower before it collapsed? Go find and learn. Don't say it is Aluminium from the plane, melted by kerosene. Wrong colour ... visit any foundry.
Have you not seen molten Steel dripping from the ends of columns drawn from the depths of those 3 rubble piles? Go find and learn with your own eyes. Again, it is not Aluminium, as you will learn from your visit to a foundry. Distinctly wrong colour.
There you are, expressed in two separate paragraphs. Now do you understand? You have had almost 7 years to find these pix for yourself. What a pity URLs are banned from this site. How much easier it would be to educate you.
Logician | 3:00 a.m. May 8, 2008
Thedmann113.
The 5 Dancing Israeli Spies were very real. Are you suggesting they were also Clairvoyant? They were ready and set up in a park across the river from the towers, with perfect views of the event. Perfect timing.
The reporting woman heard of the first crash on radio went to her apartment window to view the terrible scene. She heard celebrations from below, using binoculars she saw those 5 characters loudly celebrating and dancing on top of their furniture van, while filming the event with camera on tripod ... already set up waiting to record the events. She noted the registration number and reported it to police. They were apprehended that afternoon and admitted to being Israelis spies.
I ask you why you think it necessary to classify, for the rest of time, the results of their several weeks of questioning. They were eventually returned to Israel, where they received accolades for their efforts.
The owner of the furniture storage company quickly returned to Israel, leaving his business and heaps of clients' stored furniture.
I suggest you find some basic material and learn. This site bans the use of URLs, so I cannot feed you.
The 5 Dancing Israeli Spies were very real. Are you suggesting they were also Clairvoyant? They were ready and set up in a park across the river from the towers, with perfect views of the event. Perfect timing.
The reporting woman heard of the first crash on radio went to her apartment window to view the terrible scene. She heard celebrations from below, using binoculars she saw those 5 characters loudly celebrating and dancing on top of their furniture van, while filming the event with camera on tripod ... already set up waiting to record the events. She noted the registration number and reported it to police. They were apprehended that afternoon and admitted to being Israelis spies.
I ask you why you think it necessary to classify, for the rest of time, the results of their several weeks of questioning. They were eventually returned to Israel, where they received accolades for their efforts.
The owner of the furniture storage company quickly returned to Israel, leaving his business and heaps of clients' stored furniture.
I suggest you find some basic material and learn. This site bans the use of URLs, so I cannot feed you.
13 angry men | 3:53 a.m. May 8, 2008
Logician "Do you really believe, from hear say, that the car park cameras
were the only security means watching out for the most protected building in the
whole World?"
--------------------------------------
the most protected building in the world? says who? Would it be because of all the tanks parked in front, or all the soldiers with stingers patrolling the grounds, or all the surface to air missiles protecting the place, or anti-aircraft guns...of course there were none of the above, except for the possibility of a few stingers.
So, where exactly did you pull that statement from...?
The problem with most conspiracy theorists is their starting point is usually wrong, or they have not done enough research, or as tends to be the case, they don't even have a clue as to the actual design of the Towers and Building 7.
Steven Jones did a pitiful job in his research. One important point... of all of the people who have joined him, not one single reference to any demolition expert. (word limit reached)
--------------------------------------
the most protected building in the world? says who? Would it be because of all the tanks parked in front, or all the soldiers with stingers patrolling the grounds, or all the surface to air missiles protecting the place, or anti-aircraft guns...of course there were none of the above, except for the possibility of a few stingers.
So, where exactly did you pull that statement from...?
The problem with most conspiracy theorists is their starting point is usually wrong, or they have not done enough research, or as tends to be the case, they don't even have a clue as to the actual design of the Towers and Building 7.
Steven Jones did a pitiful job in his research. One important point... of all of the people who have joined him, not one single reference to any demolition expert. (word limit reached)
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I am enjoying this exchange.
Just FYI, I use the original source as much as possible. I have even validated/disproven (to my own satisfaction) some of what is out there with my own analysis.
The floors in the fire test do sag. In fact they look pretty bad. They do a full scale 35ft section but you are right not the 60'.
Individually I think the people who did the tests and analysis did a good job with their limited scope of work. I could spend a long time complimenting a lot of the work that they did, but let me jump to the chase on where I see the major problem.
Read starting pg69 in NISTNCSTAR 1-6D. In essence they state that the sub models did not create the pull in loads required to create the bowing observed in the exterior walls. Therefore random loads where placed on the walls to create the bowing.
Do you see any problem with this? I call this a significant inconsistancy.
I could write much more but the 200 word limit is confining. I have yet to explain "narrow"
Feel free to email me: ehoward@taper-lok.com