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Texas says 41 FLDS children have broken bones, fractures
235 comments | Read story
Blaine | 5:42 p.m. May 1, 2008
When she was an infant, one of my granddaughters showed signs of pain whenever
one of her legs was touched. My son and his wife took her to the emergency room
where the staff immediately called CPS. CPS, with no evidence whatsoever,
suspected son and daughter-in-law of child abuse. I believe that a significant
factor was my son's low income level (college students) and consequent lack
of apparent resources to defend themselves. (The cowards in CPS like easy
pickings.) X-rays showed no sign of a fracture, so CPS shopped around until they
finally found a doctor 260 miles away who had never seen the child -- only the
x-rays. That doctor gave CPS the diagnosis they wanted: fractured femur. At that
point, I hired a lawyer on the behalf of my son and his wife. One phone call
from the attorney to CPS made the cowardly bullies back off. Considering the
egregious abuse of civil liberties that is going on in Texas, there is no doubt
in my mind that some, or all, of the alleged FLDS fractures are purely
imaginary, manufactured to save face and to justify their crusade to purge a
non-state-sanctioned religion from Texas.
To Blaine | 6:40 p.m. May 1, 2008
So your argument is that unless there is photographic(x-rays) or a confession
child abuse cannot be proven? The state made the claim of broken bones as part
of a report which they stated the reason they took the children is because of
visable sexual abuse. In fact they said the physical abuse is something they
need to investigate. They dont need to prove anything right now. That is what
court is for. First they gather evidence because a judge agrees that a crime may
have been committed. This report is because politicans wanted to know why they
did something like taking 400+ kids from parents. SO they address the politicans
about what type of evidence they are looking for and what they have found so
far.IMHO the parents gave up there right to breast feed these kids when they
started moving kids and changing names. The cultis cant be trusted. Pregnate
16yr olds in a closed religious community is browraising. Your arguments about
this happens in a ghetto school are moot. These are encouraged pregnancies
fathered to men with more than 1 wife. The fathers have it coming. And BTW the
state should start charging the parents room and boardsoon!
Comments continue below
Where's the Beef? | 7:08 p.m. May 1, 2008
I'm disappointed in the article. The doctor quoted said each case
individual case must be examined.
Texas used numbers not individual cases. Numbers are really the only relevant facts for this article since no individual cases were quoted.
I expected to see a little research done and some real facts and statistics. Better luck next time.
Texas used numbers not individual cases. Numbers are really the only relevant facts for this article since no individual cases were quoted.
I expected to see a little research done and some real facts and statistics. Better luck next time.
Anonymous | 7:18 p.m. May 1, 2008
you do realize there was an undercover agent in the compound for the past 4
years, why has it taken this long to raid the place.......and the mothers have
been born into this and really may not know any better, but the men leave the
compound and have attorneys and they know they were breaking all laws........and
they said someone brought crayons for the children in the collisium and they nor
their mothers knew what they were...........that in my book is mental
abuse.........and no toys.....no babies, nothing but straight faced women with
the same dress and hairdo, no wonder none of these kids know who there mom
is..........and does this religion teach them to lie.........to
authorities.......not good in my book, I think these kids and young mothers have
a chance......the old women.......will just continue life as usual......
from Retired Teacher | 7:29 p.m. May 1, 2008
I am extremely dissapointed with some of the posts on this site. Some of you
sound like 5th graders, and others Generation Xers, who don't have a clue
about how to discuss or debate an issue without indulging in insults and name
calling of people who have a different point of view.
I can't believe what I'm reading about "CPS lovers" and "FLDS defenders" etc. Where did you learn such rude behavior? If being right is what is important to you, and at the expense of being disrespectful of people who don't agree with you...you really need to grow up!
I can't believe what I'm reading about "CPS lovers" and "FLDS defenders" etc. Where did you learn such rude behavior? If being right is what is important to you, and at the expense of being disrespectful of people who don't agree with you...you really need to grow up!
Agent | 7:57 p.m. May 1, 2008
There was no agent in the compound. That propoganda was just put out to cause
the people inside to distrust each other. try to cause infighting and
dissention. One of the tricks of dictators who strive to cleanse a people by
genocide. The FLDS warned their children that people on the outside were evil.
Didn't CPS show them how really true that was? It is good to see by the
support on these comment forums and I do hope the FLDS do understand that we are
not all evil.
I hate the CPS | 8:02 p.m. May 1, 2008
WHAT! You mean 9% of CHILDREN had BROKEN A BONE? NO WAY!!!! (Insert Sarcasm
Here) CALL THE CPS! What a Joke. My OWN 3 children have broken a total of 6
bones...my 11 year old boy alone has broken a fibula, two ribs and an
ulna...Thats 300%!!!!! And he still loves to play baseball, climb trees,
skateboard and be a normal boy.
Texas is in Hot Water over this. This is nothing more than a witch hunt.
Texas is in Hot Water over this. This is nothing more than a witch hunt.
To All Those w/ Blind Faith | 8:02 p.m. May 1, 2008
Don't have blind faith in CPS or any other government official w/ unlimited
power.
So many are on here saying "Why would they lie?" Yet CPS has a LONG history in this country of taking children away from parents just because their morals were different (not necessarily wrong).
It was not that long ago that CPS and government officials were taking children away from parents simply for not being married (happened to my paternal grandfather and mother). And CPS hasn't changed their outlook since then, they've just gotten craftier because people started standing up for their civil rights.
Unless CPS can provide tangible evidence to the attorney's representing the children that was not obtained illegally, they should return these children. But that will never happen. Now that CPS has shipped the children out to foster care, just wait and see how many children 'disappear' in the system.
So many are on here saying "Why would they lie?" Yet CPS has a LONG history in this country of taking children away from parents just because their morals were different (not necessarily wrong).
It was not that long ago that CPS and government officials were taking children away from parents simply for not being married (happened to my paternal grandfather and mother). And CPS hasn't changed their outlook since then, they've just gotten craftier because people started standing up for their civil rights.
Unless CPS can provide tangible evidence to the attorney's representing the children that was not obtained illegally, they should return these children. But that will never happen. Now that CPS has shipped the children out to foster care, just wait and see how many children 'disappear' in the system.
Re: G | 8:03 p.m. May 1, 2008
"Simply being FLDS is enough for Texas to remove children from the
compound???"
You are so delusional.
Child rape and the imminent danger of child rape is what created the need to remove the children from the compound. Being FLDS had NOTHING to do with it except that the practice of child rape was pervasive within the compound. 60% of the girls 14-17 pregnant or already mothers is strong evidence that underage girls were being forced into sexual relationships.
Twist it any way you want, but that's why the kids were removed from the compound.
You are so delusional.
Child rape and the imminent danger of child rape is what created the need to remove the children from the compound. Being FLDS had NOTHING to do with it except that the practice of child rape was pervasive within the compound. 60% of the girls 14-17 pregnant or already mothers is strong evidence that underage girls were being forced into sexual relationships.
Twist it any way you want, but that's why the kids were removed from the compound.
Exulted thoughs | 8:11 p.m. May 1, 2008
To: From Retired Teacher
PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH! You seem to express you views in a similar matter as have others on this post. Just because you are a teacher doesn't make it right for you to insult all commenter's.
I truly hope that somehow the government can move in and stop, and save the children from these horrible FLDS cults.
Excuse my grammar errors, but I am blind in one eye.
PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH! You seem to express you views in a similar matter as have others on this post. Just because you are a teacher doesn't make it right for you to insult all commenter's.
I truly hope that somehow the government can move in and stop, and save the children from these horrible FLDS cults.
Excuse my grammar errors, but I am blind in one eye.
Michael | 9:02 p.m. May 1, 2008
lets see that's around 10% now in my family we had 7 kids everyone has
broken something, my brother and I several times (we liked to play rough growing
up) So I guess my parents must have been FLDS and we should all be taken away.
Wait I also have had two sisters who go pregnant, i guess that means they were
abused since they were under aged. I guess it did not matter that it was by
boyfriends who also happened to be under aged. Must be a cult thing!
So far it seems everything Texas can come up with is the standard kind of stuff that goes on in our general society. No more no less, incest, child abuse, brian washing (I know a number of liberals, and spiritualist that fall into this group). I don;t agree with what's happening with the FLDS but I don't think our socialist state is either. It's just a warning to us all about where we are going and what this country is becoming.
So far it seems everything Texas can come up with is the standard kind of stuff that goes on in our general society. No more no less, incest, child abuse, brian washing (I know a number of liberals, and spiritualist that fall into this group). I don;t agree with what's happening with the FLDS but I don't think our socialist state is either. It's just a warning to us all about where we are going and what this country is becoming.
boys and girls | 9:26 p.m. May 1, 2008
"...AUSTIN � State authorities are investigating
whether younger boys taken from a polygamist ranch in West Texas were sexually
abused by older boys, not adults, a state official said Thursday..."
Sounds like neither boys nor girls were safe at this compound. Thank you Texas for shutting this filth down.
Sounds like neither boys nor girls were safe at this compound. Thank you Texas for shutting this filth down.
re: boys and girls | 9:51 p.m. May 1, 2008
so if someone is investigating something then you automatically cheer the guilty
verdict?
Child Rape | 10:01 p.m. May 1, 2008
How can we not support the justice system to investigate child rape or any
sexual exploit of a minor by middle age men or anyone 18 or older in what
appears to be in large number.
Brian Utley | 12:21 a.m. May 2, 2008
Reply to Rick: I seriously doubt that most families don't raise their
children in the manner you describe, to one degree or another. Catholics raise
their kids to be catholic, "brainwashing" them in the process;
Mormons to be mormons; baptists to be baptists; Jew to be Jews; and so forth.
It's the nature of child raising. These kinds of things run deep into the
fabric of what families are all about. Freedom? My biggest argument with
organized religion is that freedom often fails under the family pressures having
to do with "church." Of course, we don't want kids being raised
up to be societal nightmares, but that's a pretty subjective determination.
Today's "child rape," for instances, was perfectly acceptable in
former generations, using previous definitions of right and wrong, when
marriages were arranged and started very young. The former Texas law allowing
marriages at age 14 was a good example. We jump to conclusions too easily,
sometimes very unfairly. What is happening in Texas has all the earmarks of
institutionalized religious persecution....family persecution...situational
ethics. We're telling those people: Your family doesn't look like
mine, therefore yours must be bad.
ksmrcl | 1:09 a.m. May 2, 2008
To FLDS Apologists appall me
Google this newspaper site and search the archives for this article. It is eye opening! Where are these childrn?? I have heard that there are a lot of babies and children in the FLDS cemetery, but where are the children still living?? Are there any?
Phoenix New Times News
Forbidden Fruit
Published: December 29, 2005
Inbreeding among polygamists along the Arizona-Utah border is producing a caste of severely retarded and deformed children
By John Dougherty
Google this newspaper site and search the archives for this article. It is eye opening! Where are these childrn?? I have heard that there are a lot of babies and children in the FLDS cemetery, but where are the children still living?? Are there any?
Phoenix New Times News
Forbidden Fruit
Published: December 29, 2005
Inbreeding among polygamists along the Arizona-Utah border is producing a caste of severely retarded and deformed children
By John Dougherty
Outsider | 1:18 a.m. May 2, 2008
Only out your way will you find defenders of these awful men.
Six | 1:53 a.m. May 2, 2008
This article shows how easily people are distracted and only partially follow
the story. So DPS came out and UPDATED some information saying some of the kids
had signs of broken bones, this UPDATE has nothing to do with the BIG PICTURE
here at all really, it was simply an update of information. So many of you want
to condemn DPS for the actions they took by nitt picking little things that come
out in the media. Take a minute and look at the BIG PICTURE here and ask
yourself HAVE SOME OF THESE CHILDREN BEEN ABUSED? If there are 30 underage girls
with kids I think you can answer yes to that one. ARE THESE CHILDREN AT RISK OF
BEING ABUSED? If they're brought up in a secluded community that has a
history of marrying underage girls to older men then you might answer Yes to
that one too. Also quit the outcries for returning the children to their
mothers, their MOTHERS wouldn't cooperate or identify who was which childs
mother thats why DNA tests are having to be done! How can you return children
to their mothers if you don't know who their mother really is?
CougarKeith | 11:35 a.m. May 2, 2008
This is starting to sound like a witch hunt the longer this goes on. With all
the removal of people, have the "Men" been taken yet? I don't get
it, you take children away from mothers because older men are having sex with
younger girls? This makes no sense? Then it's a teenage pregnancy problem.
Now your worried about a broken bone count? Hey Texas, look at your own cities
problems, high crime, ill eagle immigration, teenage pregnancy, drugs, alcohol,
High Gas Prices, Unemployment Rate, High Divorce Rate, Look at those problems
before you start bothering these people! Just because they are different and
don't live the same PROBLEM LIFE STYLE you live, there is something wrong
and you have Raid their little village! All because of a couple of phone calls
you can't even verify?
G | 11:44 a.m. May 2, 2008
"Child rape and the imminent danger of child rape is what created the need
to remove the children from the compound. Being FLDS had NOTHING to do with it
except that the practice of child rape was pervasive within the
compound."
That isn't what CPS said. Angie Voss gave her reasoning
as being that "the young men are being groomed to be abusers". Meaning that they are taught polygamy, abuse, etc.
Teaching "abusive" doctrine and practicing actual abuse are two very different issues. The former is protected by the First Amendment.
We'll have to see if Texas continues to insist that simply being FLDS (practicing polygamy) is enough to endanger the children. If the physical evidence turns out to be as good as they claim, maybe they won't hold continue with such an absurd position. Unfortunately, very few of CPS' accusations so far have held water and I see no reason to start believing them without proof now.
That isn't what CPS said. Angie Voss gave her reasoning
as being that "the young men are being groomed to be abusers". Meaning that they are taught polygamy, abuse, etc.
Teaching "abusive" doctrine and practicing actual abuse are two very different issues. The former is protected by the First Amendment.
We'll have to see if Texas continues to insist that simply being FLDS (practicing polygamy) is enough to endanger the children. If the physical evidence turns out to be as good as they claim, maybe they won't hold continue with such an absurd position. Unfortunately, very few of CPS' accusations so far have held water and I see no reason to start believing them without proof now.
Call Me Jane | 12:43 p.m. May 2, 2008
There are many teen Moms in High School. So, Why does this shock us so?. Because
It was not these poor girls idea. Some of the F.L.D.S. kids were forced out
because the would not participate. This is why it shock most decent society. If
these girls want to participate they should wait until the judgment oriented
part of there brain has developed.
Bruce | 3:46 p.m. May 2, 2008
I searched the web for rates of broken bones among children.
All I could find was for Minnesota.
For kids 0-17:
Minnesota: 10770 per 100,000 = 10.8%
FLDS: 41 per 463 = 8.9%
Way to go CPS!
All I could find was for Minnesota.
For kids 0-17:
Minnesota: 10770 per 100,000 = 10.8%
FLDS: 41 per 463 = 8.9%
Way to go CPS!
Dennis | 4:07 p.m. May 2, 2008
FLDS Apologists appall me
"There are countless stories of victims"
By your count, there are two. If they are countless, you should name more than the two that we all already know who are making a nice profit from their doubtful stories...
"Explain to me why so many babies die in this religion"
How many? How does it compare with national rates? If you want people to explain something, you have to actually ask a coherent question.
"You fail to explain why some of these boys have said they have been molested."
If you want to read the news, read ALL the news. It was not molestation, It was boys experimenting with other boys. As I understand it, that is not uncommon outside of FLDS either.
"They are abusing the system"
Please offer some proof, or at least an example. Otherwise there is simply nothing here to refute.
"There are countless stories of victims"
By your count, there are two. If they are countless, you should name more than the two that we all already know who are making a nice profit from their doubtful stories...
"Explain to me why so many babies die in this religion"
How many? How does it compare with national rates? If you want people to explain something, you have to actually ask a coherent question.
"You fail to explain why some of these boys have said they have been molested."
If you want to read the news, read ALL the news. It was not molestation, It was boys experimenting with other boys. As I understand it, that is not uncommon outside of FLDS either.
"They are abusing the system"
Please offer some proof, or at least an example. Otherwise there is simply nothing here to refute.
experimenting | 4:48 p.m. May 2, 2008
It might not be considered experimenting if a 17 was as you call it
"experimenting" with a 7 year old boy.
Rulon | 6:27 p.m. May 2, 2008
Rulon Jeffs was a true prophet. He said that the marriages with underage girls
would get them into trouble. Warren Jeffs chose not to follow this prophetic
advice. Not only is he now behind bars for disobeying the prophet, but the
Community in Texas is experiencing the Lord's punishment for disobedience.
Anonymous | 9:55 p.m. May 3, 2008
In the United states polygamy is practiced by some Jews, Christians and other
nationalities within this country. The R&B singer Akon has three wives.
Let's started raiding. If you don't believe me google jewish polygamy,
there are actually "christian" and jewish dating sights for thos
interested in picking up a second or third wife. The FLDS are being targeted and
I hope heads roll over this farse of justice.
Anonymous | 11:35 p.m. May 4, 2008
Outrage
I am shaken by the story. It is heart wrenching, esp that the LDS and Utah Govn authority has condoned this continued abusive treatment of children for generations. This saga should cause everyone to question the religious foundations of Mormonism. Anyone in a leadership position of the LDS church should be ashamed for not speaking out for fundamental changes and action to prevent the child abuse perpetrated by the FLDS, and other fundamental Mormons. It a black mark the World has seen for what it is, an outrage by a cult religion.
I am shaken by the story. It is heart wrenching, esp that the LDS and Utah Govn authority has condoned this continued abusive treatment of children for generations. This saga should cause everyone to question the religious foundations of Mormonism. Anyone in a leadership position of the LDS church should be ashamed for not speaking out for fundamental changes and action to prevent the child abuse perpetrated by the FLDS, and other fundamental Mormons. It a black mark the World has seen for what it is, an outrage by a cult religion.
Re: Dennis | 12:06 p.m. May 5, 2008
"They are abusing the system"
Please offer some proof, or at least an example. Otherwise there is simply nothing here to refute.
There have been numerous reports given by investigators that a "high percentage of the women living at the YFZ Ranch, were collecting state welfare, claiming to be un-wed mothers with children." That statement was made by the Gary Engles, a chief investigator of the FLDS in Arizona. Ask an FLDS member what "Bleeding the Beast" is.
Please offer some proof, or at least an example. Otherwise there is simply nothing here to refute.
There have been numerous reports given by investigators that a "high percentage of the women living at the YFZ Ranch, were collecting state welfare, claiming to be un-wed mothers with children." That statement was made by the Gary Engles, a chief investigator of the FLDS in Arizona. Ask an FLDS member what "Bleeding the Beast" is.
laura | 7:18 p.m. May 5, 2008
what is wrong with you people these kid should be the first concern of every one
wither it be one broken bone or 41 to a 100 these kids where not like other
kids out skate boarding or playing sports think about it why are they getting
hurt ? don't you even listen to the people who escaped from there they have
nothing to gain or loose they are just telling about what they went through an
trying to help an i think it is in the best interest for the kid to know what
the real world is an not be caged up like animals an forced to work an just bear
kids for dirty old men... love has to come into play some where here. but i
dont see it happening no where.why cant they just step up an be honest an tell
the truth an be a mother an show they care about the kid or the state should
take the kids an give them a better life of choices..
angela | 11:05 a.m. May 8, 2008
I think this part of the article is interesting about the two boys that have
aged out of the system and have chosen to stay put. If they have "aged
out", doesn't that mean they are free to leave? They could actually
go back to the YFZ Ranch if they choose to but remain with CPS to finish their
education.
"Two boys who have turned 18 since being placed in state custody have chosen to stay in the foster facilities with the others. Meisner said it isn't unusual for a teenager to "age" out of the system but choose to remain in state care while they continue their education."
"Two boys who have turned 18 since being placed in state custody have chosen to stay in the foster facilities with the others. Meisner said it isn't unusual for a teenager to "age" out of the system but choose to remain in state care while they continue their education."
HELLO | 10:52 a.m. May 11, 2008
Here we go again!! I have seen many 14, 15, 16, and 17 year old females having
babies and even one 13 crying for her own mother while in labor! So, please open
your eyes and know that this all around us not just in a far away evil place.
Spending some time in forster homes myself, I know Home Sweet Home they are not!
The news will only tell what sells and bad sells!
i work for cps | 6:55 p.m. May 11, 2008
I am very offended by the premature judgment from many of you! I work for cps
and I along with my coworkers are the biggest-hearted people I know! Our #1
duty is to PROTECT children from harm, and keep them from harm if there is
alleged abuse - a child could DIE, be RAPED, or further BEATEN in the time it
takes to do interviews and collect evidence! Our #2 duty is to reunify the
child(ren) with his family if the environment and family proves to be safe.
Quit focusing on the BROKEN BONES and look at the BIG PICTURE! That is just one
small factor in the case and cps will definitely take into account the
extenuating circumstances. Know the facts and procedures of why we take the
steps we take before you judge! Investigate! Realize it takes a caring person
who wants the best to work at such a hard and demanding job!!! Don't you
want innocent children who are being hurt to have a voice? Either way, it
always seems we can't do anything right! Keep blaming...no wonder we get
burnt out.
DD | 1:14 p.m. May 17, 2008
The real problem here is that the State of Texas abused its power. They
didn't have sufficient evidence to justify the sweeping action that they
took. Even if they eventually get that evidence they still had the cart ahead of
the horse at the time. This shouldn't happen in America.
Discusted!! | 1:04 p.m. May 20, 2008
I am thoroughly discusted by reading everyone focusing on "Broken
Bones". Hello? What about rape? Yes, these kids may still love the people
who did this to them, they may still protect them. I was forced to have sexual
relations with a 33 year old man at the age of 11. I protected him for much of
my life. Because when your brainwashed that it's love, that it's
right, that it's for the better (at that age) some kids eventually believe
it. He still walks a free man after doing it to SEVERAL girls and ALL of them
protect him. I personally despise what he's done, but still haven't
sent him to prison (statute of limitation). You need to support the removal of
these girls regardless as to what they "think" they want. They
don't know anything other than what they've been taught!! And it will
probably take them 7 years to realize it. 7 years "AWAY" from those
people who influence their train of thought. People who haven't experienced
this, will never understand. Half the time I still don't understand why
childrens minds think like that. All I know is some childrens minds do think
like that.
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Carey Cockerell of the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services testifies about FLDS children.
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SCOTUS will not rule that the First Amendment covers child abuse. I don't think anybody is actually thinks that will happen.
The genuine concern here for a First Amendment issue is whether or not the state has the power to place limitations on FLDS simply for *teaching* their children things like polygamy, without marrying off the kids or committing some other actual physical harm.
What Texas has done is essentially claim that simply being a member of the FLDS church is enough to place all children in the YFZ ranch in imminent danger of abuse--including males who "are being groomed to be abuse". No case has yet come up, to my knowledge, where it has been argued that simply getting your kids to *believe* something is child abuse.
If SCOTUS rules with the state in such a hypothetical case, it will set a precedent for government to have the power to consider "thoughtcrime" laws. For example, teaching your kids the wrong history, etc. Maybe teaching the Old Testament could set kids up to be animal abusers. That sort of thing. That's why this is a concern.