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FLDS women's lawyers seek return of children
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Red Texan | 8:56 p.m. April 30, 2008
Well, they filed their appeal a little late, as more dirt keeps filtering out
about the abuse of these children. Why, oh why, God, did it take four years to
uncover this great evil and rescue the children?!
I Man Fraidddd.... | 9:16 p.m. April 30, 2008
The women themselves are incapable of protecting the children from the abuse.
Yea give them back and some FLDS boogeyman shows up saying he's there on
behalf of the Prophet and the children are once again at risk.
Ms Voss is right... their belief system is a big danger.
Ms Voss is right... their belief system is a big danger.
Comments continue below
Red | 9:18 p.m. April 30, 2008
At last, a flicker of sanity: do as little harm as possible to innocents caught
in the crossfire. Minimize trauma to the innocent.
In addition to removing all the adult males, a previous offer from the FLDS included stationing any number of monitors on the ranch that CPS felt were necessary to ensure safety of the children.
Investigate thoroughly.
Calmly take whatever measures the investigation determines are required.
Far better than the current CPS approach, which I believe was originated with Humpty Dumpty: "First the sentence, then the trial."
Since I believe that the real goal of CPS is the permanent removal and "deprogramming" of all the kids, I expect the court to shoot this down. Will be a shame, though --
In addition to removing all the adult males, a previous offer from the FLDS included stationing any number of monitors on the ranch that CPS felt were necessary to ensure safety of the children.
Investigate thoroughly.
Calmly take whatever measures the investigation determines are required.
Far better than the current CPS approach, which I believe was originated with Humpty Dumpty: "First the sentence, then the trial."
Since I believe that the real goal of CPS is the permanent removal and "deprogramming" of all the kids, I expect the court to shoot this down. Will be a shame, though --
Nonee | 9:24 p.m. April 30, 2008
"The only proof of the first criteria was a report of five teenagers under
18 who were or had been pregnant and several other women who had first had
children when they were 16 or 17 years old, the court document states. That
information came from testimony and a "bishop's record" that
listed the names of residents of 37 households, seven of which listed a
"wife" at the age of 16 or 17."
Texas law until 2005 said 14 year olds could marry w/parent permission - now it is 16.
"When asked whether Voss would consider allowing mothers to stay with their children if they agreed to leave the ranch, she said it wouldn't be acceptable unless they disavowed their belief, according to the petition."
There is no proof of abuse the CPS raid was directed at their RELIGION ONLY. From these 2 paragraphs no other explanation is possible - This is in direct conflict with the First Amendment to the Constitution.
Texas law until 2005 said 14 year olds could marry w/parent permission - now it is 16.
"When asked whether Voss would consider allowing mothers to stay with their children if they agreed to leave the ranch, she said it wouldn't be acceptable unless they disavowed their belief, according to the petition."
There is no proof of abuse the CPS raid was directed at their RELIGION ONLY. From these 2 paragraphs no other explanation is possible - This is in direct conflict with the First Amendment to the Constitution.
Sandy & Family | 10:02 p.m. April 30, 2008
I believe this petition would be good for the children and the mothers. They
are agreeing to do everything but give up their religious beliefs and you will
tell me that you would give up your belief just because the state said so. They
are offering to get the supposed abusers out of there so they can be with their
children. Doesn't this seem like enough for any of you hypocrites out
there? My belief is not the way they believe but there are many systems around
even in the churches claiming to belong to God. God gives them the same choice
that he gives us and he gave those children to them. I actually have nothing
against their hair-style or clothes which people should leave alone. These
mothers and children have caught the worst end of this whole deal. Just because
they still cover up doesn't make it wrong. Only the harlots uncovered in
the Bible... There is nothing wrong with modesty in women! This is a complete
travesty in their treatment.
Joyce | 10:21 p.m. April 30, 2008
Why do some people refer to the children as being arrested?
They were or will not be arrested.
They were taken away from home because no one would claim them as theirs. In other words the adults lied.
Now just where are the children supposed to "go home" to, if no one knows where "home" is?
To the adults that are lying. You will go to hell just as quick for lying as you do stealing.
Oh, I forgot. You have been stealing from the government you hate for years.
They were or will not be arrested.
They were taken away from home because no one would claim them as theirs. In other words the adults lied.
Now just where are the children supposed to "go home" to, if no one knows where "home" is?
To the adults that are lying. You will go to hell just as quick for lying as you do stealing.
Oh, I forgot. You have been stealing from the government you hate for years.
FLDS LIARS | 10:33 p.m. April 30, 2008
The mothers cannot be with their children because they intimidate them into
lying and not telling the CPS workers what is really going on down there in
Texas. Even when CPS DID let the mothers stay with the kids ( which is far more
then the average family involved with CPS would get) the mothers intimidated the
children into lying about their ages, their names, their parentage. Heck, Texas
doesnt even know who the REAL parents are because of all the lies. I say keep
the kids together but leave their lying parents on the ranch.
Mom | 10:45 p.m. April 30, 2008
How can the kids be returned when their names and parental identities keep
changing? This is a great lesson on the consequences of lying.
You don't get it | 10:49 p.m. April 30, 2008
You people don't get it. Regardless of what the women say, if the children
remain with them they are automatically put in harms way. These mothers
can't be trusted with their children.
To those that think Texas should have just gone in and arrested the men and that would have solved the problem forget the FLDS's practice of reassigning women and children to other men. If the men would have been arrested the women and children would have just been "married" to another dirty old man and the abuse would have continued.
Bottom line, Texas did the right thing to stop the cycle of abuse. Get over it people!
To those that think Texas should have just gone in and arrested the men and that would have solved the problem forget the FLDS's practice of reassigning women and children to other men. If the men would have been arrested the women and children would have just been "married" to another dirty old man and the abuse would have continued.
Bottom line, Texas did the right thing to stop the cycle of abuse. Get over it people!
Contributors | 11:01 p.m. April 30, 2008
Liars, most certainly. But the mothers are also complicit. They failed to
exercise sound judgment and were unwilling or unable to protect these underage
girls from systemic abuse. I say give them supervised visitation ONLY.
Professor H | 11:23 p.m. April 30, 2008
It seems to me that a child living in a foster home would be much more likely to
be abused than a child living its mother.
Ironic | 11:30 p.m. April 30, 2008
Anyone else find it ironic the these women say they are willing to live under
court ordered circumstances when they supposedly believe the law given to them
by God is above the laws of the land. Seems to me if they were as religiously
devote as they claim to be they wouldn't give up their religious
beliefs/lifestyle no matter the consequences. I thought they considered
themselves victims of an evil society, yet now they are seeking help through the
evil society's legal system and are willing to do what the evil
society's legal system says.
Either they are once again lying, which they have proven very apt at or they actually don't believe in the FLDS teachings as strongly as they claim.
Either they are once again lying, which they have proven very apt at or they actually don't believe in the FLDS teachings as strongly as they claim.
gal50 | 11:37 p.m. April 30, 2008
The people on the ranch could have stated these facts during the initial
investigation. Instead they disrupted the investigation at every turn. According
to the reports, they lied, they rotated homes, they gave false and numerous
names, they removed or mutilated identification bracelets, they could not
communicate their relationships. CPS knew there was massive abuse, it just
couldn't determine who was involved because there was a lack of
cooperation. Now these adults who showed no respect and behaved like little
children want the state to find them fit enough to return some or all of the
children.
To this date, no one knows who is related to whom, so no children can be returned. The FLDS appears to be listing young couples who have just started down the path to their polygamous adulthood. They just aren't old enough to take on a second wife. It isn't polygamy that is the problem anyway. It is the handing over of young girls to old men for sex and childbirth. Until the DNA test results, CPS doesn't know which families handed over their young daughters. Not to mention that there was testimony about male sex abuse, physical abuse and missing boys.
To this date, no one knows who is related to whom, so no children can be returned. The FLDS appears to be listing young couples who have just started down the path to their polygamous adulthood. They just aren't old enough to take on a second wife. It isn't polygamy that is the problem anyway. It is the handing over of young girls to old men for sex and childbirth. Until the DNA test results, CPS doesn't know which families handed over their young daughters. Not to mention that there was testimony about male sex abuse, physical abuse and missing boys.
HD | 12:01 a.m. May 1, 2008
As I have commented before, if the members of the FLDS would simply tell the
truth and identify family members and parents, we could get to the bottom of
this quickly. But here is the problem; there is an awareness within the FLDS
community that they are breaking the law and therefore we see mothers telling
their children to lie and create confusion. Why is it so hard to realize what
the issues are here? I am looking forward to the presentation of the DNA
evidence and the response we will hear from the FLDS then. This should be
interesting.
jac | 12:12 a.m. May 1, 2008
This travesty of justice and extraordinary overreach of government power may
finally be confronted in a court of appeals. I am stunned that this horrific
abuse of power by a state government agency is tolerated, winked at, or openly
accepted "in this case."
Starall | 1:00 a.m. May 1, 2008
I see that the State's/CPS's brainwashing is working.Maybe the Amish
will be next,and then the Catholics .I hear that the Catholics serv wine to
children ,along with inappropriate relationships with them.
Re: Red at 8:56 pm | 7:09 a.m. May 1, 2008
You are exactly right about why it took 4 years to put a stop to this but think
about Arizona and Utah that have allowed this to go on for over 100 years. I
would assume this fine religion teaches the 10 commandments and I remember one
that says "Thou Shalt Not Lie"
Bob | 8:27 a.m. May 1, 2008
It is time to wonder if those who vehemently condemn the most here and elsewhere
support abortion. While that might not seem relevant it could be. Jung
recognized "projection" as the shifting of our own evil onto others.
Everyone has a Shadow. Is it possible those who get or support abortion know it
is child abuse, but rather than accept that possibility, maybe there is a
fanatic effort to stop other child abuse. What other explanation can there be
for rejecting a more calm and rational solution? There is even a call to round
them all the men up and arrest them without probable cause despite a warrant
based on an anonymous hoax! The next step would be to throw them on the train to
concentration camps based on suspicions only. It is time to try to analyze the
collective hysteria that is so dangerous to the Constitution.
Thomas | 10:01 p.m. May 1, 2008
You can't prosecute somebody's belief system just their actions. And
evidence supporting the removal of the overwhelming majority of the children is
non-existant.
John | 1:08 a.m. May 20, 2008
Interesting how the world views polygamy as an immoral crime. Our second branch
of the government in this case went ahead and signed off on gay marriages in
California! However, I believe that the men should of been rounded up and thrown
in Jail. I feel the children separated from their mothers in not in the best
interest for the kids. Texas is famous for it's John Wayne approach to law
enforcement...but the state of Texas has more wrongful convictions than all
other states combined.
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They could have left the women and children at the Ranch. CPS could have had a presence there. Plain-clothed Law enforcement could have stayed there. They are spending over a million dollars on the rounding up and caring for the kids. They could have paid for people to remain at the Ranch to oversea it.
Doing it the way they did... now they have older children even MORE upset and convinced the "outsiders" are evil. They have women who might need help seeing the state as the enemy. And the men, well, the men who most likely did wrong are gone with the wind.