Reader comments
More than half of teen girls at FLDS ranch are pregnant or had baby
107 comments | Read story
G | 4:36 p.m. April 28, 2008
"On Monday, CPS also revised its total count of children in state custody
to 463, up one from Friday. Azar said the change resulted from finally getting
the children out of the San Angelo Coliseum and into foster facilities around
the state, where they were able to get a more accurate count."
CPS still can't count? I know that gives me confidence in them.
CPS still can't count? I know that gives me confidence in them.
DNA testing | 4:41 p.m. April 28, 2008
DNA testing will expose the systemic abuse that has been taking place.
Comments continue below
DNA | 4:48 p.m. April 28, 2008
I wonder if they could tract the DNA back to Brigham Young or even Joseph Smith?
Sarah | 4:55 p.m. April 28, 2008
DNA:
This is the FLDS not the RLDS. I seriously doubt you'd get any links to Joseph Smith. Maybe to Brigham young, but you'd get as much of a chance with anyone else in Utah.
to me it's even more painfully obvious now why they needed to take all the kids. Those parents and husband are going to end up in prison. Where they belong.
This is the FLDS not the RLDS. I seriously doubt you'd get any links to Joseph Smith. Maybe to Brigham young, but you'd get as much of a chance with anyone else in Utah.
to me it's even more painfully obvious now why they needed to take all the kids. Those parents and husband are going to end up in prison. Where they belong.
Red | 4:56 p.m. April 28, 2008
I hope that Texas hasn't shot itself in the foot. Removing kids from
possible danger doesn't require the same high standard of evidence that a
criminal prosecution does.
The flawed warrant; DNA evidence coerced under threat of imprisonment; interviewing people (many of whom are minors) without lawyers (or parents) present; etc. -- all may interfere with prosecutions.
On the other hand, frightened, isolated kids should easily be "coaxed" by "friendly strangers" into saying basically whatever CPS wants them to, and the moms can be threatened with permanent loss of their children if they don't "play ball," so Texas may be able to manufacture enough "evidence" to overcome any pesky facts or legal standards that threaten to derail their "railroad." And "weirdos" don't have a good record of getting the kind of judicial rigor our government is supposed to provide.
All in all, Texas may be able to pull off successful prosecutions.
The flawed warrant; DNA evidence coerced under threat of imprisonment; interviewing people (many of whom are minors) without lawyers (or parents) present; etc. -- all may interfere with prosecutions.
On the other hand, frightened, isolated kids should easily be "coaxed" by "friendly strangers" into saying basically whatever CPS wants them to, and the moms can be threatened with permanent loss of their children if they don't "play ball," so Texas may be able to manufacture enough "evidence" to overcome any pesky facts or legal standards that threaten to derail their "railroad." And "weirdos" don't have a good record of getting the kind of judicial rigor our government is supposed to provide.
All in all, Texas may be able to pull off successful prosecutions.
John | 4:59 p.m. April 28, 2008
We have not heard about any solid evidence justifying invasion of private
property yet - an anonymous phone call from another state is rather tenuous,
don't you think?
If they are so concerned about young girls being pregnant they could close down most urban high schools.
If they are so concerned about young girls being pregnant they could close down most urban high schools.
Rich | 5:03 p.m. April 28, 2008
Mr. DNA, they might not be able to trace the DNA back to Brigham and Joseph, but
they surely could trace it back to the apostates who refused to accept the words
of Wilford Woodruff and Joseph F. Smith when they told their followers not to
enter into polygamous relationships.
It took awhile for even some good Mormons to accept the change, and some refused to do so. A few were disfellowshipped and excommunicating, including an apostle, and the word eventually got out that the LDS Church was serious about stamping out polygamy.
Some still refused to believe that the Lord would command an end to the practice, and so they picked out some new "prophets" whose word they could accept. And this is where that apostacy has led us.
I for one do not question the Lord in first requiring plural marriage and later in prohibiting it. My feeling is that this issue is a test of faith that truly separates the wheat from the tares. If it weren't for polygamy, it would be a lot easier to accept the restored gospel of the LDS Church. As it is, it takes much more study, prayer and faith.
It took awhile for even some good Mormons to accept the change, and some refused to do so. A few were disfellowshipped and excommunicating, including an apostle, and the word eventually got out that the LDS Church was serious about stamping out polygamy.
Some still refused to believe that the Lord would command an end to the practice, and so they picked out some new "prophets" whose word they could accept. And this is where that apostacy has led us.
I for one do not question the Lord in first requiring plural marriage and later in prohibiting it. My feeling is that this issue is a test of faith that truly separates the wheat from the tares. If it weren't for polygamy, it would be a lot easier to accept the restored gospel of the LDS Church. As it is, it takes much more study, prayer and faith.
Ken Baguley | 5:15 p.m. April 28, 2008
I think we'll all have to admit that law enforcement was right in taking
those children into protective custody. The evidence of abuse is apparent what
with all those underage having children or presently pregnant. One father said
he didn't know it was against the law to have relations with a girl 17yrs
of age...Ignorance of the law is no excuse...
evidence of abuse | 5:16 p.m. April 28, 2008
The phone got them out there to look for "Sarah".
The warrant was issued AFTER the workers saw (with their own eyes) evidence of abuse.
To: John | 4:59 p.m. April 28, 2008
If 45 year old "men" are at the urban high schools having sex (while others stand by and/or encourage it) with teenage girls, they will "close down" those as well.
It is wrong for an adult male to force himself on a young girl! Even girls who are infatuated with an older man need to be protected. The mothers in this case chose not to protect their little girls. The mothers are just as sick as the husbands.
The warrant was issued AFTER the workers saw (with their own eyes) evidence of abuse.
To: John | 4:59 p.m. April 28, 2008
If 45 year old "men" are at the urban high schools having sex (while others stand by and/or encourage it) with teenage girls, they will "close down" those as well.
It is wrong for an adult male to force himself on a young girl! Even girls who are infatuated with an older man need to be protected. The mothers in this case chose not to protect their little girls. The mothers are just as sick as the husbands.
G | 5:34 p.m. April 28, 2008
"
If 45 year old "men" are at the urban high schools having sex (while others stand by and/or encourage it) with teenage girls, they will "close down" those as well."
I fail to understand why so many seem to misunderstand consent laws. A teenage girl younger than a certain age (determined by the state) is unable to give consent, whether that is to an old man or to a peer the same age. Rape is rape regardless of the age of the perpetrator.
Secondly, most teenage pregnancies in the US are caused by adult men. According to the Wiki entry for teenage pregnancy, about 2/3s of the teenage girls giving birth in the US are in that situation because of men aged 20 or older, and a high percentage of those girls were "forced" by the older men.
Folks, that took about 20 seconds of research.
If 45 year old "men" are at the urban high schools having sex (while others stand by and/or encourage it) with teenage girls, they will "close down" those as well."
I fail to understand why so many seem to misunderstand consent laws. A teenage girl younger than a certain age (determined by the state) is unable to give consent, whether that is to an old man or to a peer the same age. Rape is rape regardless of the age of the perpetrator.
Secondly, most teenage pregnancies in the US are caused by adult men. According to the Wiki entry for teenage pregnancy, about 2/3s of the teenage girls giving birth in the US are in that situation because of men aged 20 or older, and a high percentage of those girls were "forced" by the older men.
Folks, that took about 20 seconds of research.
Hugh McBryde | 6:01 p.m. April 28, 2008
I for one am not going to "admit Law Enforcement" was right. There is
a consistent pattern of lying and exaggeration on the part of Texas.
Things we DO not know that Texas has not chosen to tell us.
Who among the "have been pregnant" girls are 14 or 15?
How many are "pregnant now?" Some say there only one or two.
Which girls that HAVE been pregnant COULD have been pregnant when the law said the age of consent WAS 14. Texas law HAS recently changed. When was the effective date of the new law in other words?
Also I will continue to assert that they do not know where or by whom these girls became pregnant. This could destroy any case they have.
The girls also have to testify in some way that the father's were underage. It cannot just be assumed that the fathers were too old. 14 and 15 year old action, so to speak, is not a criminal offense.
Things we DO not know that Texas has not chosen to tell us.
Who among the "have been pregnant" girls are 14 or 15?
How many are "pregnant now?" Some say there only one or two.
Which girls that HAVE been pregnant COULD have been pregnant when the law said the age of consent WAS 14. Texas law HAS recently changed. When was the effective date of the new law in other words?
Also I will continue to assert that they do not know where or by whom these girls became pregnant. This could destroy any case they have.
The girls also have to testify in some way that the father's were underage. It cannot just be assumed that the fathers were too old. 14 and 15 year old action, so to speak, is not a criminal offense.
MD | 6:08 p.m. April 28, 2008
Hope this shuts up the polygamists that have taken over these boards the last
few weeks. Gives the rest of us in Utah a bad reputation.
I�m sick of the same invalid arguments attempting to divert
from the real issue. Abuse is abuse no matter how you try and spin it. The
constant lying is finally catching up with the FLDS. Looking forward to seeing
the perpetrators as well as those who acted as contributors, be sentenced to
prison for these outrageous crimes.
transplant | 6:09 p.m. April 28, 2008
31 underage now. How many of the older teens and young adults were spirited off
to spiritual marriages and impregnated when they were 13? Likely just as many
as are now. They won't testify against their rapist/husbands but it would
go a long way to proving systematic sexual abuse of minors. It would also prove
an abusive environment for the boys who would be expected to follow in their
role models footsteps. The women will have a hard job convincing the authorities
that they didn't know about it. It will take some convincing to the state
that they can change their convictions and will report such abuse in the future.
G | 6:10 p.m. April 28, 2008
You are wrong. An underage girl cannot consent to sexual behavior under a
certain age, but it is not rape if the boy is within a certain number of years
(also determined by the state). Usually the number of years is 3. If a girl is
14 and the boy is 15, then it is not rape, it is "same age sexual
experimentation" that produced inappropriate behaviors, but it is not rape.
Unless the boy forced himself upon her.
And it's good to know that your sources for information is the ever-so-reliable wiki-entry. My source is my years of experience with law enforcement and the court system.
And it's good to know that your sources for information is the ever-so-reliable wiki-entry. My source is my years of experience with law enforcement and the court system.
Red Texan | 6:14 p.m. April 28, 2008
Texas will indeed successfully prosecute the guilty here, and they don't
need any untoward help as you suggest, Red. We are barely into the case and
already the evidence is tumbling out big time. Hope Warren Jeffs has room for
all the company, except, oh yeah, they have to go to prison here in Texas, where
even the criminals don't have much stomach for this kind of nonsense--child
rape under the guise of religion. Indeed. Go Texas.
Doug S | 6:14 p.m. April 28, 2008
Anyone else find it ironic that this news comes out the same day we learn of
fifteen-year-old Miley Cyrus' (aka "Hannah Montana")'s
mostly-nude photo shoot for Vanity Fair?
Wonder if she'll be taken into custody and put in foster care at her next concert in Texas?
Wonder if she'll be taken into custody and put in foster care at her next concert in Texas?
RE: Hugh McBryde | 6:01 p.m. | 6:19 p.m. April 28, 2008
Hugh McBryde: "There is a consistent pattern of lying and exaggeration on
the part of Texas."
Oh, Hugh you are so right....and those FLDS polygamists NEVER lied to anybody!
Spin it any way you want, dude. But be warned. If Texas succeeds, then Arizona and Utah will follow with mass raids.
Prison awaits those who think it's okay to commit statutory rape under the guise of religion.
Oh, Hugh you are so right....and those FLDS polygamists NEVER lied to anybody!
Spin it any way you want, dude. But be warned. If Texas succeeds, then Arizona and Utah will follow with mass raids.
Prison awaits those who think it's okay to commit statutory rape under the guise of religion.
Justice | 6:28 p.m. April 28, 2008
This is not Justice
They are building a case to save them selves now
You will never know
Justice is dead in the USA
They are building a case to save them selves now
You will never know
Justice is dead in the USA
Duh | 6:35 p.m. April 28, 2008
Thanks G, good to see someone who actually knows what they are talking about. Oh
yeah, its because "John" took a whopping 20 seconds to get his info.
Next time, please get your facts straight. Older men teaching younger women that
they must comply with their sexual demands is not the same as a teenager who has
an affair with a fellow student. This all has nothing to do with religion, they
are only using religion as a pretext to do whatever they want to. Just like
Al-queida, interpreting the Koran to justify their deeds. Oh yeah, if you spend
more then 20 seconds of research, you would figure that one out too.
Professor | 6:41 p.m. April 28, 2008
Notice the imbalance of boys (213) and girls (250). There is a small chance
that this could occur just due to randomness (4.7%) But because this chance is
small, one has to wonder what else might have caused the excess number of girls
and shortage of boys.
Assume this imbalance is due to too few boys instead of too many girls. Then for 250 girls we would expect about 250 boys. Where are the missing 27 boys? (250-213=27)
It would be useful to know the age of the boys. Are boys of all ages missing or only older boys? If the missing boys are concentrated in a particular age group (say teenagers) then the chance of this gender imbalance being due to randomness falls.
Should Texas' Child Protective Services or Utah's or Arizona's be looking for and looking our for these missing children? Or are they only responsible for children in their custody?
Assume this imbalance is due to too few boys instead of too many girls. Then for 250 girls we would expect about 250 boys. Where are the missing 27 boys? (250-213=27)
It would be useful to know the age of the boys. Are boys of all ages missing or only older boys? If the missing boys are concentrated in a particular age group (say teenagers) then the chance of this gender imbalance being due to randomness falls.
Should Texas' Child Protective Services or Utah's or Arizona's be looking for and looking our for these missing children? Or are they only responsible for children in their custody?
TexAnne | 6:51 p.m. April 28, 2008
How many of the 213 boys were younger than 4? Thus, could have been born at the
ranch.
How many of those boys were under the age of 13? Still useful for farming when they're young enough, but not as much of a risk when contemplating which boys to kick out to keep the ratios suitable for 3-wives-per-man.
And have any official sources confirmed how many, or if there are any under-age teenage girls from Canada?
How many of those boys were under the age of 13? Still useful for farming when they're young enough, but not as much of a risk when contemplating which boys to kick out to keep the ratios suitable for 3-wives-per-man.
And have any official sources confirmed how many, or if there are any under-age teenage girls from Canada?
Re: Doug S | 6:14 p.m | 6:52 p.m. April 28, 2008
>
No Doug, I don�t find it ironic, especially since the �mostly-nude� photo you are referring to exposed only her back. I�ve seen prom dresses expose more skin.
What does that have to do with the FLDS committing statutory rape, anyway?
Can you say DEFLECTION????
No Doug, I don�t find it ironic, especially since the �mostly-nude� photo you are referring to exposed only her back. I�ve seen prom dresses expose more skin.
What does that have to do with the FLDS committing statutory rape, anyway?
Can you say DEFLECTION????
Deb | 6:55 p.m. April 28, 2008
I wonder when the citizens of Utah are going to do something about all the
polygamists situations in their state?
Doodles | 7:04 p.m. April 28, 2008
Is sex so sweet and abuse so cherished that we must condone it at any price?
wrz | 7:22 p.m. April 28, 2008
>>If they are so concerned about young girls being pregnant they could
close down most urban high schools.<<
They probably would if there was any hint of religion involved.
They probably would if there was any hint of religion involved.
Doug S | 7:24 p.m. April 28, 2008
Oh, yeah. "Prom dress" was *exactly* what the photographer had in
mind.
I call bull. The fact is, our society generally sexualizes children. It is certainly wrong to do so--but what is being done to the FLDS is not about protecting young girls from sexualization. It's about protecting them from being *different*. It's about sucking them into mainstream society where they'll buy crap from Wal*Mart, eat processed food from McDonald's, wear short shorts and tank tops, have sex with lots of men instead of only one, and otherwise become fully integrated with a culture that is, in nearly every way that matters, morally bankrupt.
Doodles--sex is not cherished. Civil liberties are. It is not right--never was, never will be--to remove nearly five hundred children from their parents because of one false claim of abuse, or even thirty-one true ones.
A genuine attempt to protect the children would be one thing, and I could have swallowed the removal of the sixty-odd teenaged girls.
But this is Kulturkampf, pure and simple.
I call bull. The fact is, our society generally sexualizes children. It is certainly wrong to do so--but what is being done to the FLDS is not about protecting young girls from sexualization. It's about protecting them from being *different*. It's about sucking them into mainstream society where they'll buy crap from Wal*Mart, eat processed food from McDonald's, wear short shorts and tank tops, have sex with lots of men instead of only one, and otherwise become fully integrated with a culture that is, in nearly every way that matters, morally bankrupt.
Doodles--sex is not cherished. Civil liberties are. It is not right--never was, never will be--to remove nearly five hundred children from their parents because of one false claim of abuse, or even thirty-one true ones.
A genuine attempt to protect the children would be one thing, and I could have swallowed the removal of the sixty-odd teenaged girls.
But this is Kulturkampf, pure and simple.
To Ken Baguley | 7:32 p.m. April 28, 2008
A teenager is anyone between ages of thirteen and twenty.
Until 2005 the age of consent in Texas was fourteen. Since then, any male over the age of eighteen who has sex with a girl under the age of sixteen is guilty of statutory rape. But for the crime to be prosecuted in Texas it has to have been committed in Texas. A male who impregnated an underage girl elsewhere would be subject to the laws of British Columbia, South Dakota, or Utah, etc., not those of Texas.
The presence of pregnant teenagers or teenage mothers is not evidence of child abuse or evidence that a crime has been committed. Taking the children from YFZ ranch was not based on evidence of child abuse or criminality.
It is not against the law in Texas for anyone to have sex with a seventeen year old.
Until 2005 the age of consent in Texas was fourteen. Since then, any male over the age of eighteen who has sex with a girl under the age of sixteen is guilty of statutory rape. But for the crime to be prosecuted in Texas it has to have been committed in Texas. A male who impregnated an underage girl elsewhere would be subject to the laws of British Columbia, South Dakota, or Utah, etc., not those of Texas.
The presence of pregnant teenagers or teenage mothers is not evidence of child abuse or evidence that a crime has been committed. Taking the children from YFZ ranch was not based on evidence of child abuse or criminality.
It is not against the law in Texas for anyone to have sex with a seventeen year old.
Urban | 7:36 p.m. April 28, 2008
I have been watching to see what the numbers were before I started solidifying
my opinion, because it is true that many young women all over America become
pregnant by older men before the young women are ready to be parents. And that
comparison keeps being trotted out when someone wants to downplay the danger to
the kids. However, in my urban area, the rate is nowhere near the 58% that 31
out of 53 gives you. As close as I can figure out, ours is under 3% of the
population aged 14-17. That corresponds to what I see among the young women in
my life. Also, families here are investigated by protective services when a very
young girl gets pregnant.
r.. fortado | 7:50 p.m. April 28, 2008
so, Texas has had no young women 13 through 16 who have had a child. I have lived in Texas, there are many married couples their, that are in hiding, many couples have many years differents in age.
Jules | 7:50 p.m. April 28, 2008
OK...enough already you people in here who are ridiculing Miley Cyrus and
accusing mainstream culture of raising girls who have sex with lots of
"men". A young lady can maintain her virginity, and her values...
with the support of a good family and church community...or without even! But
just because we are not Mormons doesnt mean we are demon seeds out here. I know
many young ladies in our church who value saving themselves for marriage...but
yes..they wear clothes from Abercrombie and listen to Miley Cyrus.
STOP DEFLECTING HERE. IT IS THE DEVIL AT WORK WHEN BAD THINGS HAPPEN LIKE THIS. I DO NOT CARE WHAT YOU SAY...AND HOW MANY WAYS YOU JUSTIFY IT..HIGHSCHOOLS OR FLDS..14 YEAR OLD GIRLS SHOULD NOT BE FORCED INTO MARRIAGE AND PREGNANCY. IF GOD WANTED THIS TO BE, WOULD THE MILLIONS OF PEOPLE IN HIS WORLD BE SPAWNING!!!!
Sorry...I know society is filled with problems, but there are good, solid, loving, value minded, smart, strong, families from many other communities out here... we are not all making our teenagers wear makeup and have sex.
STOP DEFLECTING HERE. IT IS THE DEVIL AT WORK WHEN BAD THINGS HAPPEN LIKE THIS. I DO NOT CARE WHAT YOU SAY...AND HOW MANY WAYS YOU JUSTIFY IT..HIGHSCHOOLS OR FLDS..14 YEAR OLD GIRLS SHOULD NOT BE FORCED INTO MARRIAGE AND PREGNANCY. IF GOD WANTED THIS TO BE, WOULD THE MILLIONS OF PEOPLE IN HIS WORLD BE SPAWNING!!!!
Sorry...I know society is filled with problems, but there are good, solid, loving, value minded, smart, strong, families from many other communities out here... we are not all making our teenagers wear makeup and have sex.
Interested | 7:57 p.m. April 28, 2008
What does family mean in America today? What is the relationship between family
and freedom for the modern American citizen?
Family as it was in the beginning of our Country has been experiencing a slow aganozing death.
For all of those who think that our governement has enough power/resources to see to it that no child in America ever has to suffer, I ask; have you ever thought it through? Do you really believe it can or will be done?
The love and caring of family is far superior then then the care of government for it's governed. On a broad scale it will always be so.
Today in "FREE" America parents are no longer the true wards of their children. Any right or priviledge that you have in regard to your children comes to you not as as inalienable right but as a gift from your government. CPS has the power to step in (on any pretext) and reft you of your children.
Is this the kind of America we want? Is this what our founding fathers fought for?
Family as it was in the beginning of our Country has been experiencing a slow aganozing death.
For all of those who think that our governement has enough power/resources to see to it that no child in America ever has to suffer, I ask; have you ever thought it through? Do you really believe it can or will be done?
The love and caring of family is far superior then then the care of government for it's governed. On a broad scale it will always be so.
Today in "FREE" America parents are no longer the true wards of their children. Any right or priviledge that you have in regard to your children comes to you not as as inalienable right but as a gift from your government. CPS has the power to step in (on any pretext) and reft you of your children.
Is this the kind of America we want? Is this what our founding fathers fought for?
To Evidence of Abuse | 8:09 p.m. April 28, 2008
No evidence of abuse has been revealed after a month long investigation and a
four-year undercover operation. They could not come up with evidence of abuse
or neglect so they had to rely on a fabricated phone call to get a warrant for
the raid.
You seem unaware that the laws of Texas were changed in 2005 to target the FLDS. Until 2005 the age of consent was fourteen and it was raised to seventeen. It is considered statutory rape for a twenty year-old to have sex with a girl under seventeen. Every year there are several thousand Texas girls under the age of nineteen who have abortions and about four hundred of those are under the age of fifteen and there are at least as many who give birth to their babies. Does the CPS of Texas investigate every abortion or birth among the underage girls to find out if the father can be charged with statutory rape or incest?
If I suspected that my neighbors� sixteen year-old daughter was having sex with her nineteen year-old boyfriend and I called the police, would CPS come with a warrant and remove my neighbors� children?
You seem unaware that the laws of Texas were changed in 2005 to target the FLDS. Until 2005 the age of consent was fourteen and it was raised to seventeen. It is considered statutory rape for a twenty year-old to have sex with a girl under seventeen. Every year there are several thousand Texas girls under the age of nineteen who have abortions and about four hundred of those are under the age of fifteen and there are at least as many who give birth to their babies. Does the CPS of Texas investigate every abortion or birth among the underage girls to find out if the father can be charged with statutory rape or incest?
If I suspected that my neighbors� sixteen year-old daughter was having sex with her nineteen year-old boyfriend and I called the police, would CPS come with a warrant and remove my neighbors� children?
jules | 8:17 p.m. April 28, 2008
Sorry..I meant to say, wouldnt the millions. I am just so upset that everyone
keeps going all around the issue here. That these people are sheltered and
raised in a community that tells them they have to be married at
menstruation.
I know the mothers love the children, but what mother would turn her little girl into the bed of a 40-50 year old man. Or a 20 year old man for that matter.
The real issue here is the pervasive pattern of repeated practice of this as a way of life.
But how do they fix it. The Mommy's need to be with the babies...but then what. And the Mommy's themselves were child brides, what other life do they know.
It is sad... because clearly they have some good qualities.
We had a mormon nanny a fews year back, she came from Seattle..but knew many Mormons from Utah too.. the values and standards were remarkable. Every one of them is now married to a Mormon man, but they waited until their 20's and with the help of their wards, found a nice guy. Why can't these fundamentalists see that there can be a common ground.
I know the mothers love the children, but what mother would turn her little girl into the bed of a 40-50 year old man. Or a 20 year old man for that matter.
The real issue here is the pervasive pattern of repeated practice of this as a way of life.
But how do they fix it. The Mommy's need to be with the babies...but then what. And the Mommy's themselves were child brides, what other life do they know.
It is sad... because clearly they have some good qualities.
We had a mormon nanny a fews year back, she came from Seattle..but knew many Mormons from Utah too.. the values and standards were remarkable. Every one of them is now married to a Mormon man, but they waited until their 20's and with the help of their wards, found a nice guy. Why can't these fundamentalists see that there can be a common ground.
17 and proud | 8:18 p.m. April 28, 2008
Your clueless, Doug S. Do you think every teenager in America is morally
bankrupt? Get out of Hilldale and you�ll find out there
are caring, moral, intelligent teenagers in every community across this country.
We�re not prostitutes, you know.
Your bigotry makes me sick. Yeah, the FLDS �protected� their kids so well, half of them are either mothers or knocked up before they get their braces off.
Your bigotry makes me sick. Yeah, the FLDS �protected� their kids so well, half of them are either mothers or knocked up before they get their braces off.
William F. Butler | 8:22 p.m. April 28, 2008
I have several comments about this Texas mess. First, the Texas authorities are
concerned about the 13-17 year old girls of the FLDS having sex and having
babies. Well, perhaps they should be given Texas ranked, according to Guttmacher
Institute, second highest (first according to some reports)in the country in
teenage (15-19 years old)birthrates in 2000. In 2001, the Texas Department of
Health announced that 1 out of every 34 teenage girls ages 13-17 gets pregnant
and that 13.1% were repeat births. Now, it seems a little hypcoritical that they
have gone and rescued all of these girls and yet don't show the same
concern for 13 year old mothers in housing projects, etc.
Furthermore, they have trampled the civil rights of men, women, and children of the FLDS and have announced they are going o give the children a normal childhood. Who are the to define normal?
Now, I too feel that where there is positive evidence of sexual relations with underage girls -- throw the book at the men involved. But for heaven's sake, to go in and take all of the children and justify it by saying the children were being taught wrong things? That is wrong.
Furthermore, they have trampled the civil rights of men, women, and children of the FLDS and have announced they are going o give the children a normal childhood. Who are the to define normal?
Now, I too feel that where there is positive evidence of sexual relations with underage girls -- throw the book at the men involved. But for heaven's sake, to go in and take all of the children and justify it by saying the children were being taught wrong things? That is wrong.
Brooke | 8:25 p.m. April 28, 2008
Remember the McMartin Preschool Case!!! I don't believe any numbers Texas
CPS is telling the media. They can't count the number of children. How do
they know their ages? Coaxing ages to the children under promise that they will
get to go home is probably under way and other lies so that the state of
Kidnapping ( State of Texas ) looks good to the media. How many Teens are
pregnant? CPS is lying. Modesto, Ca.
Doug S | 8:39 p.m. April 28, 2008
"17 and Proud: Do you think every teenager in America is morally
bankrupt?"
In truth: No.
But one sweeping generalization deserves another. And at least mine didn't tear apart any families.
In truth: No.
But one sweeping generalization deserves another. And at least mine didn't tear apart any families.
EDWARD | 8:46 p.m. April 28, 2008
PROFESSOR??
250-213=27???
TRY 37
250-213=27???
TRY 37
To: jules | 8:50 p.m. April 28, 2008
Thank you, Jules. I agree.
I am raising teenage daughters in a moral environment, but not in a religious one. They are all straight A students, active in sports, FFA, school government, and volunteer at a nearby retirement home. They lead busy lives and are not interested in serious dating right now. There are many teens like my own, who are some of the finest young people I will ever meet. I just cannot agree that the world is such a horrible place, that cults like the FLDS think it is reasonable to shelter their children from society and subject them to perverse sexual abuse.
I am raising teenage daughters in a moral environment, but not in a religious one. They are all straight A students, active in sports, FFA, school government, and volunteer at a nearby retirement home. They lead busy lives and are not interested in serious dating right now. There are many teens like my own, who are some of the finest young people I will ever meet. I just cannot agree that the world is such a horrible place, that cults like the FLDS think it is reasonable to shelter their children from society and subject them to perverse sexual abuse.
Steve | 8:54 p.m. April 28, 2008
The influx of polygamists into this board is revolting.
This is not about sexualization of society or the wayward behavior of some Texas teens.
The simple question is whether or not this FLDS community has married underage girls to older men. The key test is whether such girls are pregnant or have been pregnant If so, is the practice widespread and pervasive?
One each count, the FLDS compound is failing to alleviate these key points. First, there is a failure to adequately deny claims of underage marriages. Thus, the issue is being resolved by examining the girls for past pregnancy. These numbers should be disturbing to all. I find it shocking that defenders argue that they might not have been underage before the Texas law was changed.
That is just twisted. If those girls are pregnant, then they've been married off, thereby equally polygamy which is also illegal.
The evidence is accumulating that the State of Texas did the right thing. No minor should be in this place. The parents have utterly failed to protect their children. They will be damned -- certainly in the afterlife. But, now is the time for the State of Texas to do so.
This is not about sexualization of society or the wayward behavior of some Texas teens.
The simple question is whether or not this FLDS community has married underage girls to older men. The key test is whether such girls are pregnant or have been pregnant If so, is the practice widespread and pervasive?
One each count, the FLDS compound is failing to alleviate these key points. First, there is a failure to adequately deny claims of underage marriages. Thus, the issue is being resolved by examining the girls for past pregnancy. These numbers should be disturbing to all. I find it shocking that defenders argue that they might not have been underage before the Texas law was changed.
That is just twisted. If those girls are pregnant, then they've been married off, thereby equally polygamy which is also illegal.
The evidence is accumulating that the State of Texas did the right thing. No minor should be in this place. The parents have utterly failed to protect their children. They will be damned -- certainly in the afterlife. But, now is the time for the State of Texas to do so.
jr | 8:54 p.m. April 28, 2008
Thank GOD TEXAS has the guts to do what UTAH and ARIZONA has turned a blind eye
too. Utah can be held accountable for this mess as it allows Polygamy to
flourish and people know that your support the religion with your taxes since
these girls are classified as unwed in the eyes of the law so guess what they
are getting welfare to support their religion. YEP Utah holds fast to the past
sadly shaking head | 8:58 p.m. April 28, 2008
the comments from obviously FLDS quarters here are truly sad and show how out of
touch they are. The chickens will come home to roost in Texas. All the posturing
about "miscarriage of justice", "religious persecution" etc.
wont make any difference because that dog just wont hunt. One sad thing is the
likelyhood that many of the fathers are probably already burying themselves deep
underground. They have a compound in Canada and who knows, maybe they'll be
the new "boys from brazil". its sad sick and wrong but lets all pray
for those kids who made it out.
gal50 | 9:16 p.m. April 28, 2008
Where are the missing 39 boys?
393 children/14 years=28 children per age(0-14 yrs)
4years(14-17)*28 children per year=112 children/2sexes=56 girls and 56 boys. 59-17 boys present=39
It is possible that there are more children per age in the lower age brackets and not as many in the 10 to 14 age bracket.If so, then perhaps some teen girls have been crossing state lines for the purpose of providing sexual activity to adult males.
But, the first guess is that a lot of boys are missing since the number of girls present is similar to the number that should be there.
Last week, I wrote the Texas State Patrol and said that the criminal activity concerning the boys was less about grooming them to become predators and more about their disappearance. Given, these numbers, it appears that the parents have abandoned their male children. The boys may not be returned.
Here's a quote from the article: Of those 463 children, 250 are girls and 213 are boys. Children 13 and younger are about evenly split � 197 girls and 196 boys � but there are only 17 boys aged 14 to 17 compared with the 53 girls in that age range.
393 children/14 years=28 children per age(0-14 yrs)
4years(14-17)*28 children per year=112 children/2sexes=56 girls and 56 boys. 59-17 boys present=39
It is possible that there are more children per age in the lower age brackets and not as many in the 10 to 14 age bracket.If so, then perhaps some teen girls have been crossing state lines for the purpose of providing sexual activity to adult males.
But, the first guess is that a lot of boys are missing since the number of girls present is similar to the number that should be there.
Last week, I wrote the Texas State Patrol and said that the criminal activity concerning the boys was less about grooming them to become predators and more about their disappearance. Given, these numbers, it appears that the parents have abandoned their male children. The boys may not be returned.
Here's a quote from the article: Of those 463 children, 250 are girls and 213 are boys. Children 13 and younger are about evenly split � 197 girls and 196 boys � but there are only 17 boys aged 14 to 17 compared with the 53 girls in that age range.
Fred M | 9:20 p.m. April 28, 2008
It looks to me like the CPS is lying in order to make their case to take the
children. FLDS mothers are lying to protect their children from abuse in the
"outside world." After reading statistics about how bad the foster
home situation is in Texas, it looks like a wash for the kids. They'll be
abused at the ranch, abused by foster care. What's best for them?
My take is that they should all be returned to their homes on the ranch. Use the DNA evidence to decide which fathers to prosecute, and work from there. There must certainly be a fair number of people on the ranch innocent as well. Why didn't CPS just remove the men? Doesn't that remove the threat and possibility of abuse? Why punish the children? These kids look well fed, well behaved, clean, and happy.
I hope that the legal system moves very fast in order that the children's lives are not ruined by the possibly well intentioned but incompetent CPS. Figure out who the "criminals" on the ranch are, put them away, and then get the majority of the kids back to their families!
My take is that they should all be returned to their homes on the ranch. Use the DNA evidence to decide which fathers to prosecute, and work from there. There must certainly be a fair number of people on the ranch innocent as well. Why didn't CPS just remove the men? Doesn't that remove the threat and possibility of abuse? Why punish the children? These kids look well fed, well behaved, clean, and happy.
I hope that the legal system moves very fast in order that the children's lives are not ruined by the possibly well intentioned but incompetent CPS. Figure out who the "criminals" on the ranch are, put them away, and then get the majority of the kids back to their families!
Thinking out loud | 9:46 p.m. April 28, 2008
Some on this board accuse anyone who feels that Texas is targeting just one
group as a polygamist. That is not so, many feel this is religious persecution
pure and simple. It is fair to ask about the behavior of the Texas authorities
in other cases of teen pregnancy. Do a search on your computer enter "Texas
teens lead nation in birth rate" you will find an article in the Dallas
newspaper from Nov. 5, 2007. The writer of that article seems to point the
finger at Hispanic People for this high teen birth rate. Then the article goes
on to blame George W Bush for advocating abstinence during teen sex education
rather than contraception.(when he was governor). What is the situation with
Erandy Gonzalaz the girl who is pictured with her 18 month old baby and pregnant
again. Did they take the children away???? until she could prove the identity of
the father or fathers to see if they could be prosecuted. The gut feeling is
that she is being treated different than the FLDS girls. From the interview
which ran in the DNews today with Rep. Harvey Hilderbran, the Texas laws have
changed just to target FLDS.
Non-believer | 9:48 p.m. April 28, 2008
It is quite amazing that so many people are more concerned about punishing the
guilty (we still do not know if and how many there are) than about the plight of
the victims as well as the concern about the law having been observed while
carrying out this horrible raid. But at least the kids are still alive. Not like
those in Waco where the authorities took it upon themselves to save the children
from "abuse" by incinerating them. Should we believe these people
anything they say? Only if we are blind and deaf and have no memory. Were there
not several cases of claimed sexual abuse by fathers in the past, then it was
discovered that the children in those cases were cajoled into false statements.
The families were effectively destroyed. The children never recovered from the
"saving" by the respective "children's protective
societies". Please, tell me who are the "brainwashed"...
SJ Bobkins | 9:49 p.m. April 28, 2008
If there needed to be solid proof of how sick this group is, I think we just
found it. There has been no exaggerating when it comes to 13 or 14 year old
children being turned into baby machines by 50 year old men. Hopefully such news
will put an end to this form of rape under the banner of God.
There is nothing holy about child rape. To compare what goes on in a typical high school with the FLDS is nuts. There are problems in society, but the solution isn't to prevent people from making mistakes by keeping them in a virtual prison, and if they do make a mistake they get tossed, losing all family ties, at a tender age. It seems like the point of doctrine where the character known as Satan was planning on preventing sin, is much the same method as the FLDS is using. No TV, no sports, no music, no dancing, no outside influences, no recreation, just procreation and pioneer dresses.
I'll trade freedom for their mess any day.
There is nothing holy about child rape. To compare what goes on in a typical high school with the FLDS is nuts. There are problems in society, but the solution isn't to prevent people from making mistakes by keeping them in a virtual prison, and if they do make a mistake they get tossed, losing all family ties, at a tender age. It seems like the point of doctrine where the character known as Satan was planning on preventing sin, is much the same method as the FLDS is using. No TV, no sports, no music, no dancing, no outside influences, no recreation, just procreation and pioneer dresses.
I'll trade freedom for their mess any day.
ello | 10:06 p.m. April 28, 2008
I think it funny how the Mormons defend the FLDS. Give me a break. I guess some
things hit a little too close to home for some.
These FLDS kids deserve at least the choice to live this lifestyle. Just like the Mormons believe in the free agency, that is the foundation of Mormonism.
Practice what you preach please.
These FLDS kids deserve at least the choice to live this lifestyle. Just like the Mormons believe in the free agency, that is the foundation of Mormonism.
Practice what you preach please.
Re: SJ Bobkins | 10:08 p.m. April 28, 2008
So it is about their religion! Uhmmmm. As much as we may not fathom living like
these people do, as far as I know, it is not a crime not to watch TV, dance, do
sports or whatever else they might not do. It is not a crime to wear old
fashioned clothes either. (Though the retailers might object). It is even not a
crime to procreate. The question is, did they or did they not abuse children?
That was the stated reason for the raid. Until solid (not hearsay or
manufactured) proof is provided, I shall not point an acusing finger. So far,
too many lies have been dished out to us to believe anything the Texas
authorities might say.
Add your comment
Comments are monitored. Any comments found to be abusive, offensive, off-topic, misrepresentative, more than 200 words or containing URLs will not be posted.
Words Remaining
E-mail address: For internal use only. We may want to contact you to publish your comment (not your e-mail address) in the newspaper or for a separate story idea.
Related content
- NASA sets Monday shuttle launch 11:53 a.m.
- WVC robberies investigated 11:41 a.m.
- Funeral today for Utah soldier 11:16 a.m.
- Vaccination clinic set in St. George 11:15 a.m.
- $47B in suspect Medicare claims 11:11 a.m.
- 3 dead in Reno helicopter crash 11:02 a.m.
- Galaxy headed to MLS Cup 10:45 a.m.
- Veteran climber dies in Himalayas 10:36 a.m.
- Slovakia beats U.S. 1-0 10:30 a.m.
- Suicide attack kills 11 in Pakistan 10:28 a.m.
- Attack meant to kill apostle
- Williams leaves, won't play tonight
- Short-handed Jazz fly past Sixers
- Can BYU root for (ick) Utah Utes?
- Man killed during 3rd I-15 crash
- Bench proves fruitful for Y.
- D-Will home for daughter
- Trial begins in toddler death
- Born of water and the spirit
- Utes excited for 'dream' game
- SLC council OKs gay rights policies
349 - Editorial: Mormons and gay rights199
- Senators want food tax restored162
- Will state consider gay rights law?145
- Letters: Strange breed in Utah129
- Utes remain silent about BCS120
- S.L. vote pending on gay protections113
- Can BYU root for (ick) Utah Utes?105
- Celtics crush Jazz104
- Pratt pleads not guilty to sex charges103
If you are looking for a bird on the cheap, the following specials from...
How do you handle kids and contests? Our oldest daughter, 7, is of the...
Advertisement
Latest comments
The reason that won't be the case is because, unlike your teams line, our...
This freedom of speech issue is enough to make me want to remain as a private...
What is everyone talking about? Good luck next game? I could have sworn I...
yeah, TV might be rude. but springville isn't smart for trying to compare...
Thanks, Robinson, for a laugh-out-loud funny article which makes a point then...
WAC 1-0 vs the MWC this year, next week will be 2-0 for the WAC when Utah...
"Three Rivers" is an excellent program. I hope everyone will tune in!
A real man! What a pro that Mathis is! He's great! I thought Matthews played...
I wouldn't call Brown "big". Tall, maybe, but he's maybe the skinniest high...
Tobacco prevention saves lives and money.
Advertisements
The wheels of justice are slow, but they do eventually move down the road.