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Sifting through volumes of FLDS evidence proving to be tedious
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Doug S | 2:06 p.m. April 28, 2008
It's going to be fun to see how much money Texas has to pay their lawyers
to analyze these 1,000 boxes of evidence. And doubly so, when someone finally
figures out that the search warrant was BS, that seeing a pregnant 16-year-old
does not give "probable cause" to suspect statutory rape when there
are dozens of teenaged boys on the compound, and that all those 1,000 boxes of
evidence are . . . INADMISSIBLE.
The lawyers dicker . . . | 2:08 p.m. April 28, 2008
. . . as lawyers do.
Luckily the children are safely out of the reach of FLDS and it's lawyers for now.
Imagine dealing with these guys if you were trying to get warrants before taking the children to safety.
Luckily the children are safely out of the reach of FLDS and it's lawyers for now.
Imagine dealing with these guys if you were trying to get warrants before taking the children to safety.
The FBI | 2:14 p.m. April 28, 2008
is after some of the guys? That's no surprise.
I'm not surprised about the amount of evidence either.
The warren jeffs stuff should not be privliged. The man is a criminal.
I'm not surprised about the amount of evidence either.
The warren jeffs stuff should not be privliged. The man is a criminal.
Comments continue below
Give it up | 2:22 p.m. April 28, 2008
I understand that there are laws and priveleged information that can't be
admissable in court. However if these people have nothing to hide and believe
they are doing nothing outside the law, what is so secret in this stuff. If my
kids had been taken from me and I had done nothing wrong, I would let them take
it all!!! They could have every shred of paperwork and everything I owned!!
I am confident that there will be criminal charges brought against both men and women of the FLDS compound. I say let it take as long as it has to. They are obviously hiding something they know is illegal!!
I am confident that there will be criminal charges brought against both men and women of the FLDS compound. I say let it take as long as it has to. They are obviously hiding something they know is illegal!!
hmmmmm | 2:24 p.m. April 28, 2008
SAN ANTONIO � Texas child welfare officials say more than
half the teen girls swept into state custody from a polygamist sect's ranch
have been pregnant.
Child Protective Services spokesman Darrell Azar says 53 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 were living on the ranch in Eldorado. Of that group, 31 already have children or are pregnant.
State officials took custody of all 463 children at the Yearning For Zion Ranch more than three weeks ago after a raid prompted by calls to a domestic violence hotline.
Child welfare officials say there was a pattern of underage girls forced into "spiritual marriages" with much older men at the ranch.
Child Protective Services spokesman Darrell Azar says 53 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 were living on the ranch in Eldorado. Of that group, 31 already have children or are pregnant.
State officials took custody of all 463 children at the Yearning For Zion Ranch more than three weeks ago after a raid prompted by calls to a domestic violence hotline.
Child welfare officials say there was a pattern of underage girls forced into "spiritual marriages" with much older men at the ranch.
CA | 2:27 p.m. April 28, 2008
I don't really care what we spend if it means all those fake religionists
get some jail time for their crimes agains women and children. I wander what
story the DNA will tell?
What is the status of the suit brought by Jeff's nephew- the nephew who said Jeff's (and others) sexually assualted him (and other kids)repeatedly when he was 5 and six years old?
What is the status of the suit brought by Jeff's nephew- the nephew who said Jeff's (and others) sexually assualted him (and other kids)repeatedly when he was 5 and six years old?
to hmmm | 2:43 p.m. April 28, 2008
cps also said the call was made from within the compound by a 16 year old girl
when they could have tracked the cell phone to Colorado. They said the bed in
the temple was for older men consummating the marriage to their teenage girls
when in reality it was for tired workers there and so on. The CPS has lied from
the beginning. I wouldn't be surprised if they can't find any evidence
in it. I am not a fan of the FLDS but I am of basic human rights. They have been
violated in this case and children traumatized forever. If we cheer Texas on, we
might be next and more families are torn apart without a search warrant, or like
in this case, it will be fabricated later. I am scared by the power Texas
assumes here.
Doug S | 2:46 p.m. April 28, 2008
CA, I wonder whether the DNA will ever make it into the courtroom.
There may be something to the allegations Jeffs' nephew is making. But given that Jeffs controls (or controlled, until recently) a multi-million dollar trust, I'll wait until I see some hard evidence before considering Jeffs guilty of sodomy. Give a court a couple hundred bucks in filing fees and you, too, can have your own lawsuit accusing anyone in the world of any charge you feel inclined to make.
There may be something to the allegations Jeffs' nephew is making. But given that Jeffs controls (or controlled, until recently) a multi-million dollar trust, I'll wait until I see some hard evidence before considering Jeffs guilty of sodomy. Give a court a couple hundred bucks in filing fees and you, too, can have your own lawsuit accusing anyone in the world of any charge you feel inclined to make.
txmom77 | 2:48 p.m. April 28, 2008
CPS also said that only one child was in the hospital, but today said they are
working on a schedule so that parents can visit their CHILDREN that are in the
hospital. Huh, children usually means more than one child.
Red Texan | 2:51 p.m. April 28, 2008
It isn't just Jeff's nephew alleging all the child abuse at the FLDS
compounds. This is a tragic example of the many victims the crime of Polygamy
creates.
Go Texas. Rescue the children!
Go Texas. Rescue the children!
Lilathe | 2:53 p.m. April 28, 2008
I think the last count on children in the hospital was 9. Eight in hospital one
breastfed toddler in intensive care from dehydration.
Polidoro Tetoskulopis | 2:57 p.m. April 28, 2008
One of the greatest misfortunes that has happen to humanity is that people are
being told to be religious, not spiritual.
I prefer that my tax dollars be expended on these unfortunate mothers' and children than in the Bush's family war in Irak.
It is interesting to read christian hating christian in these comments.
Is there any web-site to send help to these women and their children?
I prefer that my tax dollars be expended on these unfortunate mothers' and children than in the Bush's family war in Irak.
It is interesting to read christian hating christian in these comments.
Is there any web-site to send help to these women and their children?
CA | 3:34 p.m. April 28, 2008
31 of 53 girls age 14 to 17 are or have been pregnant. Is that OK?
No.
No.
G | 3:42 p.m. April 28, 2008
"31 of 53 girls age 14 to 17 are or have been pregnant."
Okay, now they can release the other 374 kids before more of them end up in the ICU.
Okay, now they can release the other 374 kids before more of them end up in the ICU.
Re: CA | 3:53 p.m. April 28, 2008
If 31 of 53 girls age 17 are or have been pregnant, then that is 100% legal
under current Texas law. And if they came from some other state, then other ages
may or may not have been perfectlt legal also. Why not list the number 14-16
instead of including the legal age of 17 in the total?
txmom77 | 3:58 p.m. April 28, 2008
There are TWO pregnant girls now. How in the heck did they get a judge to sign
that order? I mean you found 2 pregnant minors in a sea of 436 children and you
just know it's sexual abuse?? I thought they had dozens and dozens are
pregnant girls??
Leroy G. | 4:07 p.m. April 28, 2008
"Child Protective Services spokesman Darrell Azar says 53 girls between the
ages of 14 and 17 were living on the ranch in Eldorado. Of that group, 31
already have children or are pregnant."
>>>Ok assuming this is true it means that 22 are not pregnant and have no children.
Lets say 13 girls in each age group and 14 of 16 yr olds. Hmm if all 17 yr olds are pregnant and all 16 yr olds are pregnant that equals 27 -- Not enough -- need at least 4 girls that are 15 and pregnant. That does not look good for FLDS.
Oh I see now. Maybe there are more 17 yr olds because CPS determined they were under 18.
CPS determined on the day of separation that 25 girls who claimed to be over 18 were actually minors. At least they are with their kids. They can worry about being 18 at a later time. If they were actually 18 then 31 minus 25 leaves 6 and maybe none who are 16.
>>>Ok assuming this is true it means that 22 are not pregnant and have no children.
Lets say 13 girls in each age group and 14 of 16 yr olds. Hmm if all 17 yr olds are pregnant and all 16 yr olds are pregnant that equals 27 -- Not enough -- need at least 4 girls that are 15 and pregnant. That does not look good for FLDS.
Oh I see now. Maybe there are more 17 yr olds because CPS determined they were under 18.
CPS determined on the day of separation that 25 girls who claimed to be over 18 were actually minors. At least they are with their kids. They can worry about being 18 at a later time. If they were actually 18 then 31 minus 25 leaves 6 and maybe none who are 16.
Interested | 4:13 p.m. April 28, 2008
It has been amazing to me to see what CPS calls normal in this situation. They
say that they have just been following standard procedures and as far as can be
seen through the media they have been. How many Americans that believe in
FREEDOM are frighted by this. How many are shocked that the standard procedures
of one branch of our government can have such devastating results. That the
civil rights of so many can be so easily and completely violated and our
government calls it legal and standard. We as "free" Americans should
look very clearly at this situation and the power that we have given to our
government. Is this the kind of thing we want to live with. I ask all those who
think that a child should never suffer, do you really think that a government
can accomplish that. The love and feelings of family will surpass those of
government for it's governed subjects.
A warning to all parents. In the USA you are no longer in charge of your children. The government is and the only rights that you have is what the government "gives" to you.
Is this what we really want?
A warning to all parents. In the USA you are no longer in charge of your children. The government is and the only rights that you have is what the government "gives" to you.
Is this what we really want?
Texas Justice | 4:17 p.m. April 28, 2008
This probably has a whole lot more to do with some prosecutor trying to make a
name for him/her self than it does with trying to help kids who don't need
help.
Interested | 4:25 p.m. April 28, 2008
Where are the charges? Why have so many been treated as guilty and none have
been charged with a crime.
How can we Americans sit back and so easily rob other free citezens of their civil rights?
How did we arrive at a point that CPS has such great power and might that they can judge by what they think they see or what they believe might be and there judgement receive such a final status that so many children can be take with out a single charge filed against a single person.
How can we possible arrive at the conclusion that something a one year old child is going to be taught later in his life is "imminent danger". How could a judge uphold such a rediculous claim let alone rip that child away from home, mother and father.
If there are crimes that have taken place; investigate that crime and the person(s) that actually did it. Leave the rest alone until probably cause is found for other crimes.
That members of this religion may have broken a law in the State of Texas is very likely. Is this not so with any religion in America?
How can we Americans sit back and so easily rob other free citezens of their civil rights?
How did we arrive at a point that CPS has such great power and might that they can judge by what they think they see or what they believe might be and there judgement receive such a final status that so many children can be take with out a single charge filed against a single person.
How can we possible arrive at the conclusion that something a one year old child is going to be taught later in his life is "imminent danger". How could a judge uphold such a rediculous claim let alone rip that child away from home, mother and father.
If there are crimes that have taken place; investigate that crime and the person(s) that actually did it. Leave the rest alone until probably cause is found for other crimes.
That members of this religion may have broken a law in the State of Texas is very likely. Is this not so with any religion in America?
G | 4:29 p.m. April 28, 2008
"Oh I see now. Maybe there are more 17 yr olds because CPS determined they
were under 18.
CPS determined on the day of separation that 25 girls who claimed to be over 18 were actually minors. At least they are with their kids."
CPS has this situation so confused I wouldn't suggest anyone even attempt to keep a count. Apparently they can't.
The best anyone can hope for is that none of the kids in their custody die from neglect. Apparently, sadly, some are already in the hospital.
CPS determined on the day of separation that 25 girls who claimed to be over 18 were actually minors. At least they are with their kids."
CPS has this situation so confused I wouldn't suggest anyone even attempt to keep a count. Apparently they can't.
The best anyone can hope for is that none of the kids in their custody die from neglect. Apparently, sadly, some are already in the hospital.
to Interested | 4:52 p.m. April 28, 2008
You are exactly right in both of your posts and you said it well but sadly some
of these ignorant people will not pay attention.
Jan Denver | 4:59 p.m. April 28, 2008
Is there any truth about records from artificial insemination clinic in Utah and
Texas young ladies scheduled appointments?
Does artificial innsemination is possible in these cases?
Just a question, please don't send the marines.
Does artificial innsemination is possible in these cases?
Just a question, please don't send the marines.
Im4Freedom | 5:20 p.m. April 28, 2008
It's nice to see some posts with common sense and actual feelings...
Something TX and CPS don't have...
Might mention also, maybe CPS don't know how to count! "CPS returned women to the ranch after FINALLY believing their ages" (two were 22, later 1 was 23, and still later 1 that was 29!... now? how many teens that are 14, 15, 16???) That's ridiculous! Why don't we start by having CPS take a class or two on Basic mathematics, and a half course in Reading and Comprehension... seems how they appear to be able to read, but nothin' processes in their mind correctly.
I say, I'm for FREEDOM... aren't you?
Might mention also, maybe CPS don't know how to count! "CPS returned women to the ranch after FINALLY believing their ages" (two were 22, later 1 was 23, and still later 1 that was 29!... now? how many teens that are 14, 15, 16???) That's ridiculous! Why don't we start by having CPS take a class or two on Basic mathematics, and a half course in Reading and Comprehension... seems how they appear to be able to read, but nothin' processes in their mind correctly.
I say, I'm for FREEDOM... aren't you?
anonymous | 5:20 p.m. April 28, 2008
I'll make my own prophesy here and predict when the DNA tests come back
some of those kids are going to turn out be be fathered by their own fathers.
Matt in Tucson | 5:24 p.m. April 28, 2008
I like how the "lynch mob" has conveniently ignored that the local
Eldorado sheriff actually called Dale Barlow before the raid. That seems to be
a rather "inconvenient truth."
While the lynch mob is after the FLDS today, they may be after you tomorrow, with CPS in tow. When the state abuses laws, we are all endangered. Especially when those actions are supported by politicians looking to cash in on the situation.
While the lynch mob is after the FLDS today, they may be after you tomorrow, with CPS in tow. When the state abuses laws, we are all endangered. Especially when those actions are supported by politicians looking to cash in on the situation.
Doug S | 5:43 p.m. April 28, 2008
Anonymous: A prophet, indeed! Are you taking donations?
BobP | 5:54 p.m. April 28, 2008
Most legal jurisdictions recognize marriage under a legal principle of lex loci
celibrationus. It just means that he law of the place of celebration governs
its validity.
The law of unintended consequences strikes again.
The law of unintended consequences strikes again.
Karen Marconi | 6:19 p.m. April 28, 2008
The bottom line with all of this is that there is child abuse going on in that
compound even if it is only one child! It is about time that the children are
being protected by such a ridiculous cult.
Wake up people. The rest of the world does not live like those people, thank God!
Wake up people. The rest of the world does not live like those people, thank God!
So Many Smart People | 6:33 p.m. April 28, 2008
You people have no idea what you are talking about, Your hate is hanging out
Write your own book about yourself
Write your own book about yourself
Doug S | 7:17 p.m. April 28, 2008
Karen -
What about an unabused child's right to remain with his or her parents, rather than being shunted off into a foster care system with a 75% failure rate and where child rape and abuse statistics are far, far higher than anything heretofore documented in the FLDS community?
Or are you arguing that *all* FLDS are child abusers?
What about an unabused child's right to remain with his or her parents, rather than being shunted off into a foster care system with a 75% failure rate and where child rape and abuse statistics are far, far higher than anything heretofore documented in the FLDS community?
Or are you arguing that *all* FLDS are child abusers?
transplant | 8:12 p.m. April 28, 2008
Artificial insemination possible? Yes. Probable? No. So what? So no man on the
ranch is the biological parent. The Mother will have a lot of spalnin to do if
she wants to make a case for having her child returned. Besides, in their
religion, the need for a man to sire all his kids is to populate his very own
planet where is he a god in the afterlife. Men it seems to me have a real
problem accepting their mortality.
Anonymous | 8:26 p.m. April 28, 2008
Go Texas!
Thank God for Texas! | 8:32 p.m. April 28, 2008
"Under Texas law, children under the age of 17 generally cannot consent to
sex with an adult. A girl can get married with parental permission at 16, but
none of these girls is believed to have a legal marriage under state
law."
House of Cards | 8:46 p.m. April 28, 2008
It's time to bust up this cult once and for all. The Arizona/Utah
authorities are starting to crack down and this Texas raid may shut down this
crackpot group at YFZ. Most of the children will be returned to their mothers
after they receive counseling and deprogramming. But they won't return to
the FLDS community, I predict. The men will be stuck with their old wives.
I'm disgusted by you "Civil Rights" people who ignore the rampant violation of the right to pursue education and freedom and happiness DENIED to the women of FLDS. These people clearly raped their young girls and forced them into a lifestyle not of their choosing. This is not a religion. This is a cult ran by child abusers such as Warren Jeffs who admitted he was a fraud. The rampant welfare fraud alone is reason to shut them down. Have you heard of RICO? Good-bye YFZ.
I'm disgusted by you "Civil Rights" people who ignore the rampant violation of the right to pursue education and freedom and happiness DENIED to the women of FLDS. These people clearly raped their young girls and forced them into a lifestyle not of their choosing. This is not a religion. This is a cult ran by child abusers such as Warren Jeffs who admitted he was a fraud. The rampant welfare fraud alone is reason to shut them down. Have you heard of RICO? Good-bye YFZ.
the world is watching | 8:46 p.m. April 28, 2008
Everyone that posts on here has made up his or her mind about this cult/church.
Get off your soap box; make your simple statement or move on.
No one will change my mind and convince me that the FLDS is anything but a cult full of pedophiles, women who won't stand up for their children and young victims.
No one will change my mind and convince me that the FLDS is anything but a cult full of pedophiles, women who won't stand up for their children and young victims.
Anonymous | 8:52 p.m. April 28, 2008
In the FLDS Culture there seems to be a number of women who have been told all
of their life that men have the knowledge and power and are never wrong. So
these girls grow up and may have an opinion and yet never voice it. They allow
men to dominate them, until the point where it doesn't matter if it is the
same man, the man can change, as long as they have a "priesthood" man.
They never seek higher education, they are the "make-do" easy to get
ran over and used.
Those who do seek higher education -- never let their opinion get brushed off or let themselves be treated like a doormat.
So which are you? Doormat or Not?
Those who do seek higher education -- never let their opinion get brushed off or let themselves be treated like a doormat.
So which are you? Doormat or Not?
Scared American | 9:01 p.m. April 28, 2008
Someone explain to me why the state of Texas and the CPS could not have had the
FLDS men leave the Ranch, and even the women to if necessary, and keep the
children there while the do there investigation, and after they have done their
investigation, then start this Foster care situation. It would have by far been
less costly and less Traumatizing to the children. By this I
don�t believe the state of Texas has any interest in the
welfare of these children, as the choices of action have proven this. The way I
see it if I had to chose between two worlds in which to live in, one where
someone gets away with a crime "regardless of the crime" but due
process and minimal damage is done in bringing the ones we can to Justice, or a
world where the government or anyone for that manner can disrupted my life, your
life our life�s with no evidence and build the case latter,
I would go with the former. Trading the Constitution to catch a few Criminals is
a very poor deal; we Americans are the ones that will get screwed in the end.
Anonymous | 9:26 p.m. April 28, 2008
I think the authorities are going to be put in an untenable position once the
appeals process leaves the state.
zoar | 9:40 p.m. April 28, 2008
Interested
"How can we Americans sit back and so easily rob other free citezens of their civil rights? "
Because most Americans have never even read the constitution much less studied it. They prefer politicians and special interest groups interpret it for them. Meanwhile they spend their time on more important issues like Global warming, cultural sensitivity and American Idol. Thus, they remain woefully ignorant of the document that preserves their freedoms. So if rights are trampled, they
think the government knows what is best and can do no wrong because its for the children.
"How can we Americans sit back and so easily rob other free citezens of their civil rights? "
Because most Americans have never even read the constitution much less studied it. They prefer politicians and special interest groups interpret it for them. Meanwhile they spend their time on more important issues like Global warming, cultural sensitivity and American Idol. Thus, they remain woefully ignorant of the document that preserves their freedoms. So if rights are trampled, they
think the government knows what is best and can do no wrong because its for the children.
VegasBaby | 9:57 p.m. April 28, 2008
The FLDS lawyers are making a bundle!
Bill | 9:58 p.m. April 28, 2008
Dear Scared American,
I agree. I think that CPS took the women and children instead of the men for two reasons. 1-the women and chidren are easier to control than men. 2-The foster parents get paid to take the children. Nobody would get paid to take the men. 3-It makes better headlines. Okay, three reasons.
I agree. I think that CPS took the women and children instead of the men for two reasons. 1-the women and chidren are easier to control than men. 2-The foster parents get paid to take the children. Nobody would get paid to take the men. 3-It makes better headlines. Okay, three reasons.
STEVE | 10:32 p.m. April 28, 2008
I'M NOT FLDS AND DO NOT LIKE THEIR WAY OF LIFE. I DON'T LIKE WHAT CPS
OR THE STATE OF TEXAS HAS DONE TO THEM OR TO ALL OF US BY SHOWING US WHAT CAN
HAPPEN TO ANYONE THEY FEEL IS DIFFERENT. PLEASE LET ALL OF US KNOW IF THERE IS
SOMEWHERE WE CAN SEND MONEY TO FIGHT FOR THESE PEOPLES RIGHTS.. WHICH IN TURN
PROTECTS ALL OF OUR RIGHTS.
How about... | 12:43 a.m. April 29, 2008
Steve, you keep your money and treat your own family and friends with respect
and compassion. Protect your own rights.
gretchsing@hotmail.com | 12:47 a.m. April 29, 2008
OK.
If we're all Christians here.
How about this..."Husbands treat and love your wives as Christ loved the Church." "Wives submit to your husbands AS IS FITTING UNTO THE LORD"
I think Christ Jesus would be appalled and saddened by this gross display of God's covenant of marriage.
What has been uncovered at the "Yearning for Zion" ranch (what an offensive name I might add) is only an example of what we Christians (both male and female) must look at in regard to how "false prophets" must be revealed. And how "weak minded" women must learn. The Bible reveals all of this in the last days. Wake up people! As believers and followers of Christ Jesus we must stand up and tell the Truth. This was wrong no matter what you think the state of Texas did or didn't do right. W W J D?
If we're all Christians here.
How about this..."Husbands treat and love your wives as Christ loved the Church." "Wives submit to your husbands AS IS FITTING UNTO THE LORD"
I think Christ Jesus would be appalled and saddened by this gross display of God's covenant of marriage.
What has been uncovered at the "Yearning for Zion" ranch (what an offensive name I might add) is only an example of what we Christians (both male and female) must look at in regard to how "false prophets" must be revealed. And how "weak minded" women must learn. The Bible reveals all of this in the last days. Wake up people! As believers and followers of Christ Jesus we must stand up and tell the Truth. This was wrong no matter what you think the state of Texas did or didn't do right. W W J D?
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