Deseret News | Former FLDS member is sharing her insights on the sect

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Former FLDS member is sharing her insights on the sect

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TheMadNuker | 1:26 p.m. April 28, 2008

Define truth. Your truth, her truth? It is a very
dangerous game stepping in for God. Whether you as an individual, or the state, the application is the
same. Are you a god, that can see into the innermost
soul of a person, or an entire people? May all that
have posted here, please read about the life of
Perpetua, "Roman History". I realize that you may
have to confront some inner demons, but the true enlightenment will be well worth the time.
Before anyone vents, just look up what the facts
of history, tell us today.

Good intent | 1:26 p.m. April 28, 2008

I do not doubt Ms. Mackert's sincere and pure intents. Nor those of the churches and their members wanting to help her.

But I wonder how she or they would feel about someone saying that Baptist, Catholic, Jewish, or LDS children need to be freed from their "religious bondage" and taught the true gospel of Jesus Christ as someone else believes it to be?

I have no love for polygamy, nor the FLDS. I am deeply concerned about underage "marriages" or other abuse.

But it is also deeply concerning to me to see people so anxious to undermine the religious beliefs of others. Remove underage "marriages" and other abuse and welfare fraud and the FLDS have as much right to their beliefs and to pass those beliefs on to their children as do the members of any other (or no) church, political party, or other belief system.

Make up your mind | 1:28 p.m. April 28, 2008

I'm a little confused as to why so many people on here want it both ways. They don't want the FLDS and the LDS churches to be seen as related, and yet, people continuously get on and whine about religious persecution. I have a feeling that if this was some other religious group in no way related to the LDS church, everyone here would be all for taking the kids away. It seems as if those who are LDS want everyone else to take the same position their church has for years - just let them be and ignore any possible unlawful activity - which has led to years of abuse and neglect going unpunished.

Comments continue below

Day dreaming again | 1:35 p.m. April 28, 2008

re: comment 12:34
Only in your wildest dreams. LDS is a moral religion. FLDS is a colony of immoral men who have children slaves. There is no resemblance to Mormonism. You do not know what you are talking about. Ive seen you post before on here, but you are completely wrong, and some how you are very confused in your thinking.

Re: Make up your mind | 1:44 p.m. April 28, 2008

Stupid, bigotted, biased comment.

How could you possibly know the religion of every blogger and know that everyone who is either in favor of or opposed to taking the kids away belongs to a particular religious group?

re: re: samhill | 10:54 a.m | 1:47 p.m. April 28, 2008

Why does it matter that Baptist buses were used? It's a churchs duty (no matter the denomination) to provide humanitarian aid whenever they can. Had they(the Baptists) been asked to borrow the buses and said no, the FLSD/LDS would be running up and down the streets playing the persecution card calling Baptists "hateful bigots". It's a lose-lose situation for the Baptists. Would it be different if they were LDS buses? It doesn't matter what it said on the buses, there was a problem with children being raped and abused in the community and they all came together to help when needed. It appears that many just want to place blame on another religion. The Baptists in Texas weren't the one raping children.

heres Johnnie | 1:49 p.m. April 28, 2008

the only good Blogger is a muted blogger

Alfonso Smith | 1:50 p.m. April 28, 2008

Truth is beyond structure.It comes only when you are in an unstructured state of conciousness.
You can not manage and manufacture it; it comes when it comes.
There is no path to truth. If you are searching for truth, all paths will lead you stray, because following a path means that you have already decided what truth is. You have decided the direction, the dimension, how to approach it, what dicipline to follow, what doctrine to adopt.
Truth is not a discipline either, because truth is freedom. Truth is a bird on its wings, not a bird in a cage. The cage may be of gold with dimonds, but a cage is cage and it can not contain freedom.
My sympaty to the FLDS mother and their children.
God bless America.

Re: Comment | 12:34 p.m. April 2 | 1:51 p.m. April 28, 2008

Well said and I totally agree. In a way I have more respect for the FLDS people than the LDS. They are strong enough in their beliefs to not give way to popular opinion about polygamy as the LDS have. If it's the word of God, why did the LDS stray from it?

Re: Day Dream | 1:52 p.m. April 28, 2008

Comment 12:34 is correct. Look at the history of why things are the way they are today.
and To Re:Make up your mind. People that read these with an open mind can tell the bias of each post.

Re: Comment | 1:59 p.m. April 28, 2008

You obviously aren't LDS and you aren't FLDS, so what makes you think you're qualified to make any accurate comparison between the two?

What is obvious is your lack of understanding and hatred of the members of both religions.

Alex | 2:26 p.m. April 28, 2008

Relax. I have thought that I would like to help out these people too. Everyone wants to help them the only way they know how and I suppose that means that everyone has a calling from the Lord to do it. This lady wants to help them out with her new found religion. I want to help them out with my religion (LDS). No problems there.

Your Bias is Showing | 2:26 p.m. April 28, 2008

Re: Day Dream 1:52: You're obviously NOT one of those people who is capable of reading the posts with an open mind.

LDS bloggers have been very critical of the both the FLDS practices of forced marriages and child abuse and of Texas's denial of due process.

Matt | 2:47 p.m. April 28, 2008

I have a hard time understanding why members of the LDS church are so outwardly offended by the polygamy practiced by members of the FLDS church. In the LDS church, the direction to stop practicing polygamy was handed down in response to United States laws outlawing the practice. But the early leaders of the LDS church married young girls just like the current leaders of the FLDS church do now. And, as I understand it, polygamy is still an "eternal principle" that will be practiced again. I guess I am just wondering how one can believe that the FLDS memberï¿½s practice of polygamy is ï¿½immoralï¿½ while an LDS memberï¿½s practice is sanctifying?

Anthony Samuelson | 3:18 p.m. April 28, 2008

Are not the teen-aged boys as much abused as the girls? With a select few men having multiple wives, a large proportion of boys have to be "let go" as you say in the United States (I am in England) and these boys - having been brainwashed from the time they were toddlers - can be in no fit state to cope with the outside world. I have read that any minor infraction can be used as a pretext for culling the boys and this must mean that they live in mortal fear their every waking hour.

One is inclined to say: Only in America! but bad things are done in the name of religion all over the world.

Moshen Baxtic | 3:30 p.m. April 28, 2008

Please educate me?
Do the LDS mormons practice spiritual marriges for the death?
Have any of them have more than one death wife?
Can a LDS mormon have a living wife and be married to a death one?
Do they practice poligamy in the death world?
Why such as hate and rejection between LDS and FLDS?
Do these Mormons (FLDS and LDS)follow the teachings of Jesus: "Do not do to others what you do not want to be done to you."

2 "Make up your mind | 1:28" | 3:35 p.m. April 28, 2008

1. What does whining about civil rights abuses have to do with the 2 churches being "related"? Do you have to support the heavy handed approach in Texas to not be accused of being an FLDS sympathiser? I support the freedom of all Americans (including the FLDS).

2. Not all Utahns or DMN posters are LDS.

Personally, when Texas has legal evidence of specific people commiting specific crimes I will support the prosecution of these individuals all the way. I just don't agree with those getting into the "Arrest all Males who are FLDS" mind set.

Encouraging governments to make arrests based on the simple criteria of 1-Sex[M/F] and 2-Religion sets a BAD presidence. Today many are OK with, "Arrest all Male FLDS", tommorrow general arrest warrants like this could include MY demographic.

I think the criteria should always be the same (even when dealing with the "evil FLDS")... If authorities have evidence you committed a crime they can arrest you, but NOT because you are the wrong religion, wrong sex, wrong ideology, indicating you MAY fit the profile. The government needs evidence of specific crimes, not just suspicions based on profiles (your religion/sex/race/etc) to arrest ANY citizen.

Me Oh My | 3:45 p.m. April 28, 2008

The bottom line in all of this is; the state of Texas has blatantly stepped on these peoples constitutional rights. It doesn't matter if you were LDS or FLDS or Baptists or Whatever religion you are it was WRONG!!! Just because we don't agree with a persons religion doesn't mean a thing. If there is abuse, investigate it but don't take the entire community!! Give the children back to their parents NOW even if we don't agree with their religion.

Doug S | 4:24 p.m. April 28, 2008

Moshen: Yes, to all of your questions.

I'm uneasy at the LDS church's reaction to the FLDS, but to be honest--it has little choice. See, the FLDS basically believe when the LDS Church renounced polygamy, the church leadership commissioned a select band of men to keep "the principle" alive. The LDS church would mainstream itself and prosper, while the polygamists would continue to suffer persecution but maintain doctrinal purity--so that, at some future date, the groups would merge again.

The story is bunk, of course, But the upshot is, any friendly overtures the LDS church makes towards the FLDS will be interpreted by the FLDS as preparing the way for the merging--and will strengthen the FLDS in their delusion.

Better to just leave them alone.

shadow | 4:40 p.m. April 28, 2008

To me oh my: Unfortunately, it appears that the entire community was and is suspect. Thus the court has to take the children away and sort out the mess. If the mothers, and fathers, had come clean right away and said who was who, who belonged to who, etc., this court case would have moved on further down the street. DNA will give us some answers.

Since no one from the compound was voluntarily giving information that our society needs to determine if there has been ongoing crime, then the court has to move forward and pull in all the suspects.

Nothing unusual about Texas' actions. Only that they had more backbone than Utah's leadership.

Let the process move forward. Meanwhile, do not confuse "mercy" with "justice". They are different concepts and require different thinking.

The Shadow Knows.

To: Moshen Baxtic | 4:43 p.m. April 28, 2008

Your questions seem sincere. The best and most comprehensive way to answer your questions about our belief in marriage is to take you to a proclamation on the family issued by the Church:
http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,161-1-11-1,00.html
This answers many of your questions and states that ï¿½marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator's plan for the eternal destiny of His children.ï¿½ We also believe in being ï¿½actively involved in family history work. This work is to identify their ancestors and enable them to bind their families together for eternity in holy temples.ï¿½ For more on this seeï¿½
http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/membership-in-the-church/temples-and-family-history

Lastly, please know that The Church of Jesus Christ teaches that we should love and not hate. Any that have shown hate are not living their religion.

LDS double standards | 4:52 p.m. April 28, 2008

Those who are living polygamy are not living the LDS religion, or are they? I am pretty tired of the many double standards of Mormonism. I have known some who even go to the temple. Shushhhh!

You answered all | 5:04 p.m. April 28, 2008

the questions about your marriage policies except the ones that were asked. The LDS do believe that a man can have more than one wife after death. This came from the time that they had to stop practicing polygamy to become a state. The belief was never stricken (just the practice). They don't like to talk about it much.
Also, to those that say that Mary is just trying to "convert" to her religion. Well, most Christians are like her and believe that we should not have more than one spouse (in heaven or otherwise). And, actually most Christians don't even believe in "marriage in heaven".

Stumpy | 5:07 p.m. April 28, 2008

I've always been taught that if you want to know what someone believes, ask them, not someone else. So, if you want to know about what Mormons or Catholics or any other religion believe ask them, not those of another faith.

A good place to go to find out what Mormons (not really the name of the Church but is only a nickname) you might check out Mormon.org and select the "basic beliefs" link (they believe in... God the Father, His son Jesus Christ as the Savior of all mankind, and in the Holy Ghost; in the bible, prophets, the golden rule, living a good Christlike life, families, and so on).

As to FLDS being Mormons, Gordon B. Hinkley the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (also know as Mormons and as LDS) during a 1998 television interview with on Larry King Live said, "They [FLDS] have no connection with us whatsoever. They don't belong to the church. There are actually no Mormon Fundementalists."

Just because I claim to be a member of an organization, if I don't join with them, recognized by them, live by their rules, my claim is invalid.

re me oh my | 5:09 p.m. April 28, 2008

you are wrong by saying the flds community isn't doing anything wrong. POLAGAMY IS AGAINST THE LAW. so lets quit turning a blind eye to it. It's rediculous that it could be illegal, but yet we try to ignore it. Give me a greak. Alll of the wives and husbands should be arrested for breaking the law. They may as well be selling drugs because both are illegal.

Re:Me Oh My | 3:45 p.m. April 28 | 5:21 p.m. April 28, 2008

Once again, it seems many have missed the point of this situation. They were not raided because of their religion. They were raided because they forcibly married and raped underage girls. Since it was obvious that many girls have been abused IE: numerous pregnant 14 year olds, they were all taken from the community. If you abuse your dog, they take the dog away until you get your due process. Even if you had three dogs and only abused one, the still take them all away as to avoid further abuse. This case is exactly the same. And before you jump all over this post, I'm not trying to belittle these children by comparing them to dogs. It's just an analogy.

G | 5:22 p.m. April 28, 2008

"you are wrong by saying the flds community isn't doing anything wrong. POLAGAMY IS AGAINST THE LAW."

Polygamy was not the cause of the raid, child abuse allegations were.

And as many have pointed out, these polys aren't legally married to more than one women, they only claim to be. So it's not really against the law unless you count common law marriages. And if you do that, a lot of Texas' population is going to be joining FLDS in jail.

Finally, even if they do aggressively push polygamy prosecution, it's only a matter of time until the ACLU or similar organization turns this into the next gay marriage and the anti-polygamy laws are declared un-constitutional by SCOTUS.

That's because there's just something fundamentally silly about government taking action against polygamy when people can commit adultery without being punished, and when "swingers" regularly collect as many mates as they want.

In Arizona and Utah, polygamy itself is rarely prosecuted for these reasons, and those targeted are usually the worst scumbags prosecutors can find and who usually need to be behind bars for something else that perhaps cannot be so easily proven.

Men who have died | 5:31 p.m. April 28, 2008

Polygamist will always say anything to have their way with woman. These guys come a dime a dozen. Only a fool would want more than one. Also, a woman would have to be a bigger fool to live that kind of life style. There will be plenty of men in heaven who didn't get a change to marry while alive who will get a chance to marry in the next. There are plenty of men to go around ladies.

So polygamist men quit placing yourselves so above all other men. No one in their right mind would want one of you fellows.

Matt in Tucson | 5:36 p.m. April 28, 2008

To those who say that polygamy was not a reason for the raid, go look at the search warrant. It specifically mentions "Bigamy" as one of the two charges it was investigating.

Oh no! | 5:51 p.m. April 28, 2008

To: all Matt's on this blog.....who cares?

Hector 10:48 | 5:51 p.m. April 28, 2008

Hector schmector.
What the heck are you talking about. Sometimes I can barely read these comments because they are so incoherant.

wallyworld | 6:15 p.m. April 28, 2008

RE: Comment: You said that it was us, the LDS, who broke away not the FLDS, right?? because it was Joseph Smiths' doctrine...and we, the LDS, changed it. Well, guess what? IT was not Joseph Smith Doctrine, it was Gods Doctrine. He was the one who told Joseph that it was His will for the Saints to practice polygamy. Joseph Smith DID NOT just wake up one day and say "Hey dude, I think I'll have more than one wife, that would be cool!!." Give us a break.... And it was this same God who told Wilford Woodruff that it was time to stop with the polygamy.

I believe that God can change His mind ANYTIME He wants, or does He have to check with you and/or the rest of the Christian world.

Red Texan | 6:17 p.m. April 28, 2008

Polygamy is a crime with many victims. Go Texas!!!!

Brett | 6:42 p.m. April 28, 2008

Out of one cult...into another...

Orlin | 7:06 p.m. April 28, 2008

Well folks, Its a mans right to have more then one wife. We need to have more because of our manly needs. Woman just need to know this, and that they don't rate quite as high as man. Gods is a man and he is a polygamist too. He has worlds of wives. Women were made for the purpose to serve man and multiply his seed at his request. That's the way it is.

Irene C. | 8:07 p.m. April 28, 2008

As an LDS woman with an ex-husband who converted to FDLS I know that comparing LDS and FLDS is like comparing night and day. The FLDS tried to convert me. Also, I have lived in the "bible-belt" where my children were called names as they walked through their high school halls by some very good "Christians" because my children are LDS. I like and respect true and honest people of any persuasion, religous or not, and I enjoy having people of various religions around me. The fact that they may not like me or my religion does not bother me one bit. I have faith in the human soul. None of us have a real clue as to how God will ultimately judge us all and we should stop using the scriptures to judge and condemn each other. Give the FLDS children a good education, teach them good values and self-discipline, teach them to think on their own, and then trust them to make good choices for themselves when the time comes. Every human being should have that opportunity.

Jules | 8:40 p.m. April 28, 2008

I agree with Not Sheep. I believe the kids need have respect, because they are FLDS, that is their religion. They are separated because of sexual abuse.. I also think is horrific...but they need love, as much peace as is humanly possible... Who wants to come out of their world and have the rest of the world try to reform them?? They are probably so confused and frightened. I think the amount of girls pregnant and married is awful...but I wish the world would realize that they are human beings who have been taken from all they have ever known.

It is certainly not the time to force conversion to something else. We can pray for them...as a nation..and pray that soon and somehow...some resolution can come along. Obviously, someone felt it is right in Gods eyes to do what they were doing..so for them..they are being persecuted. But the kids do not need to become something else right now. They just need love and support.

How would you feel, if you were the 14 year old mother..realizing that she was a "victim" in someone elses eyes, and didnt know it. Compassion, humanity.. these are children.

Misguided | 8:44 p.m. April 28, 2008

This lady wishes to replace the children's loving parents so that they can be "saved" in her new religion. Pleese! If she really loves the children, as she says, then she would understand that these children do indeed already have parents. I live in Canada and in the past, the government took children away from the natives and put them in "better", more civilized schools in order to integrate them into "our" society. Until this day, the country keeps apologizing for the cruelty it inflicted on this population, the breakups of families and the social, psychological and emotional consequences it had. If you wish to follow Christ, then do as He did. He never pushed, only gently guided. He was an example and He led the way. He did not take children from their families but let people old enough to make the decision to follow Him to do so. He commaded to honour and obey the parents given to us by Him. He did not command us to rip children from their loving, caring mothers. Arrogance and lack of awareness of our own lack is not Christian.

belair1954 | 8:46 p.m. April 28, 2008

ABC123:
If I were you, I would investigate really through about the reason why we need to pay our tithes in order to enter our temples. My family were Baptist, evangelicals, etc. and all these people really STINK. Their pastors, or reverends all they do is have the best steak for dinner and the best car and house. Not to mention the adultery that exist among the pastors, reverends!! Your people need to start really investigating the truth about LDS. Not just the outside!! But, deep, very deep. I'm sick and tired of this FLDS and and the stupidity of the media and people around!!!

d&b | 8:47 p.m. April 28, 2008

It seems as if most of you missed the real reason this lady wants to take in these children, she came out of the FLDS cult herself. If anyone knows how hard it is to adjust, she'd know.

As for "separation of church and state" and using Baptist buses, the phrase "separation of church and state" isn't even in the Constitution. The government is just not allowed to establish a religion as a "national religion" and force everyone to believe that way.

The Baptist faith is a cult too? Ha, I'm a Baptist. I have the right and freedom to choose what I believe, I can wear red, I get to choose who I marry, I can have a career, I can go to college and graduate school if I want to, I know all about other religions, I watch the news, I even *gasp* have internet and watch movies! I also am very aware of the right of others to choose what they believe as well, and I respect that. Learn a little about who you're insulting please, before making such blanket statements.

Polygamy | 9:03 p.m. April 28, 2008

Yes, polygamy is against the law and all that but what do the children have to do with it other than having had lost their mothers and homes? Who cares about the bickering amongst us regarding doctrine, differences and sects? Evil must be snearing with glee. If you truly love these aflicted people, then that means helping to reunite the children with their mothers, as Solomon did, and not try to usurp them. He knew that there can be no comparable love for a child to her/his mother's. There are now a lot of vultures (Mary is probaly well meaning, though...) now gathering to pick and snatch what is not theirs. What a heartbreaking mess!

Jerry Holt | 9:47 p.m. April 28, 2008

What must not be lost in this event is the fact that the FLDS are truthfully following the example of Joseph Smith, whom they consider to be their first Prophet, Seer, and Revelator. Joseph Smith started polygamy as early as 1833 when he married Fanny Alger, age 16. Joseph married one or two 14 year old girls; Helen Mar Kimball, age 14, May of 1843 and Nancy M. Manchester, [age 14?], [1842-1843]. In all Joseph Smith was married to at least 33 females, women and children. 33% were between the ages of 14-20. Many of his wives were still married to other men (polyandry). The FLDS are following Joseph Smith's teachings out of Doctrine and Covenants 132 where he taught that in order to get to the upper level of heaven a man MUST have multiple wives. People need to face up to the fact that Joseph Smith was a false prophet. Please read Todd Compton's book; "In Sacred Loneliness The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith" where I found this information on Joseph Smith.

FLDS man | 10:03 p.m. April 28, 2008

Yes, I agree with others on here, it is our God given right to have as many wives as we want. One just isn't enough for the celestial kingdom. Women are here to serve us.

Robby | 10:05 p.m. April 28, 2008

All these religions are messed up. Everyone claiming they are the "True" church and God is talking to them and everyone else is wrong!

Reminds me of a Robert Frost poem I took some liberties with:

SOMETHING there is that doesn't love Religion,
That sends the frozen-mind-swell under it,
And spills the temple boulders in the sun;
And makes gaps even two facts can pass abreast.
The work of preachers is another thing:
I have come after them and made sensible repair
Where they have left not one truth on another,
But they would have the rabbit in their cage,
To please the yelping dogmatists. The gaps I mean,
No one has seen them made or heard them made,
But at Spring Semester Logic Class we find them there.
My neighbor only says, "Good religion makes good neighbors."
Reason is the mischief in me, and I wonder
If I could put a notion in his head:
"Why do they make good neighbors? Isn't it
Where there is no civilization and science? But here there is civilization and science.
Something there is that doesn't love Religion,
That wants it down!

zoar | 10:06 p.m. April 28, 2008

Mormons is a term that was used by the enemies of the Church to describe anyone that believed in Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. Applying the original definition, FLDS and LDS fall into that category. Both groups share the same core beliefs and use the same scriptures. The only glaring difference that separates them is polygamy.

IMO, if FLDS children were placed in LDS foster homes they would have more in common than other religions which do not believe in the restoration, Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. They would have an easier time making the transition from polygamy than they would with another religion trying to tell them their lifestyle was wrong.

Anonymous | 10:11 p.m. April 28, 2008

Robby, you are a genius! Thanks!

To Layola | 11:24 p.m. April 28, 2008

Just like the branch devidians were the children of Jesus? things that make you go Hmmmm.

Non-Baptist Texan | 12:58 a.m. April 29, 2008

All I can say is, the sooner that these children are taken out of the hands of Baptists, the better. A Mormon is a Mormon is a Mormon to them. This is the Baptists' opportunity to "save" these children, not from abuse, but by converting them to their religion. These poor children.

David | 4:19 a.m. April 29, 2008

Please check out religioustolerance dot com to actually get the true facts on nearly all religions. I believe that God wants us to love one another as He loves us. NONE of us are perfect and we receive mercy in the same measure as we practice it towards others.

Re: Wally 6:15 | 6:52 a.m. April 29, 2008

I love that statement "God has the right to change his mind" That is absoulutely hilarious. You have reduced God to a mortal and Female at that.

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Scott G. Winterton, Deseret News

Former FLDS member Mary Mackert, now a Baptist, talks about her life in the FLDS faith Sunday at the Central Faith Baptist Church in San Angelo, Texas.

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Former FLDS member is sharing her insights on the sect

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Reader comments Former FLDS member is sharing her insights on the sect

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Former FLDS member is sharing her insights on the sect