Action: Criminal charges are urged
Hey, Blackbane, how come their all-wise prophet didn't move them all to Mass?
Looks like Uncle Warren guessed wrong.
Not back in the Victorian era. It was commonplace for older, more settled men
to marry women as young as 14 and 15. Kinda weird now tho.
The early mormon polygamist that took girls of fourteen years of age as wives,
would the be considered pedophiles.
A previous post stated: "Comparisons to Missouri or Nauvoo are perverse. Those
were illegal mob actions against innocent people." Illegal actions do not just
become legal because the victims are guilty as opposed to innocent.
Constitutional protections apply to all, not only the innocent. This is a case
of gross constitional violations (not referring to freedom of religion, but
freedom from unreasonable search and seizure--there was not the necessary
evidence to do this right). Everyone keeps posting that we're going to wait and
see the truth come to light, but that's not how the law works. We can't
overstep constitutional rights--even in the name of getting to the truth.
No one argues that having sex with an underage girl is wrong however the way the
state of Texas took the children smacks of intolerance and religious
persecution. The small children are in no danger, why take them? There was no
due process. The way they did it was if one is guilty than all are guilty. If
the state can do it to these people, who is next? It would be like the Catholic
priest abuse scandal. If you are Catholic then your children are in danger of
being molested so hand over your children. The FLDS constitutional rights were
trampled on without proof. I am a firm believer in the rule of law and Texas is
not following it.
This isn't about polygamy, you need only read thesmokinggun to see the control
used by men against women/girls/children. A girl from the compound was asked
her age, answered the question as 16 and then was told by Ray Jessop her age
"was eighteen" and which she responded as directed by Ray Jessop.
you make a valad point. This is an eerie echo of the Edmunds anti-polygamy act
of 1882. An act aimed at a specific group of people.
Don't you love this quote: "This violates Texas values and our lifestyle and the
way we see traditional relationships. We are not going to tolerate it."I
guess with that reasoning for making a law, maybe we shouldn't be so surprised
that the verdict wasn't against any specific cases of Actions against the law,
but against believing the law was wrong...- Welcome to "land of the free"
where if I don't like what you believe, I'll make a law against it - then "save"
your children by forcibly taking them from you - not for actions against my new
law, but for not believing my new law is right!
You've illustrated beautifully the point I was trying to make. Aside from this
fiasco, how does texas stand with teen pregnancies? Abused children?Rapes?
Not all that well. texas is a mess. So far we've gotten a dim witted vp, a
dimmer witted president, a load of state sponsered executions, and loads of
undocumented workers from texas. At least the compound wasn't burned to the
ground to protect these folks from themselves.
Don't mess with Texas, means just what it implies. You included. Don't mess with
the children here, we value them. Don't ever move here, you'd be
boo'ed out of the Alamo
HELLO people remember innocent until PROVEN guilty,we in this country have a
CONSTITUTION to be governed by, and all Judges ,Governors etc take an oath of
office to uphold THE CONSTITUTION....looks like we are prosecuting the wrong
Just curious. Let me know what you think. Do you suppose we'll hear about the
abuse that will statistically unavoidably occur after these children are runn
through the foster care system?
TO to about Missouri mobs: The Missouri mobs and not Joseph Smith were
the ones who destroyed a printing press. The printing press destruction
you refer to was done in Nauvoo under order of the city council. It was done
because the Nauvoo Expositor sought to destroy the Nauvoo Charter which the
saints knew was the only thing between them and the persecution that had existed
in Missouri. However Joseph Smith was incarcerated not on charges
relatated to the destruction of the press, he had been released on bail on those
chages by Daniel H. Wells, the most prominant non-Mormon in Nauvoo (yes he later
joined the church, but that is not the issue). He was inprisoned on charges
related to having declared martial law to prevent riots in the wake of the
destruction of the press. If you think destroying a press is a capital
offense than calling his killers a vigilante mob may make sense. However, since
most people do not think property destuction is a capital offense especially
when done in self defense, your characterization of the situation is
inconsistent with prevaling views.
I have thought about the Shurtleff approach again. Besides the fact he likes
to take too much of the credit for it, it does work. A raid like Texas
did hurts the cause of bringing about real, permanent change. What you want is
actual convictions which Shurtleff is getting. Once you put people in jail for
statutory rape and being accesories to statutory rape, the marriage age will go
up. This is the way to stop the marriage of underage girls. Head on assaults
will result in nothing except defensiveness and a greater desire to continue the
practices in the face of persecution.
Fortunantly CPS has not used the term pedophile, but many people on these
boards have. A pedophile is someone who is sexually attracted to
pre-pubescent children. No one has brought up any charges of sexual attraction
to pre-pubescent children in this case. I do not think any criminal
charges will be filed. The fruit of the forbidden tree doctrine will block
them. I guess I was wrong and Texas has made marriage with someone
under age 16 criminal. It is hard to see such a law being upheld when
anti-sodomy laws have been overthrown and the ability of the state to dictate
what relationships can recieve state recognition is in question.
However, since the post-1970 Supreme Court is an activist court that acts more
like a legislature, I can see it actually supporting such a non-logical set of
laws. I think that the state should be able to dictate the limits of
what relationships can recieve state recognition, but I do not think the mere
act of saying a relationship is a marriage should be prosecutale. I do oppose
the broad use of marraige, but this is my political view, and should be allowed
others under free speech.
Every time a certain brand of texan opens their mouth, you get some arrogant
remark usually followed by the phrase "don't mess with texas", as though that
explains everything they say and do. Many posters on here are not
polygomist apologists, but are still appalled at the obvious heavy-handed,
predudicial, and probably unconstitutional actions of the lone excuse state.
I this united states, child pornography is against the law, child rape is
against the law. we have registered sex offenders. what best describes the men
in this compound? perverts,sexual addicts,child molesters,, what???can you possibly imagine, a ten year old little girl in bed with a 50 year old
man, or any man. can you picture this disgusting scenario in your mind? some of
you have little girls, some of you were little girls. at what age does a little
girl quit being a little girl? is it at the time she is forced into the bed of a
man she married,and then 9 months later she experiences the excruciating pain of
childbirth? accepts the life style she was born into,, because thats all she
knows. crying herself to sleep at night, after she has been violated over and
over. having been programed that her role in life was to bear as many children
as she can, so her little girls can become victims of these monsters just as she
had, and her sons, what about them ? kicked out at the tender age of 14,never to
see their family again, all under the disguise of a religion.
Mr. Hilderbran:The following statistics
(www.dshs.state.tx.us/famplan/tpp.shtm) were taken from an official Texas
website. Every ten hours a 14 year old gets pregnant in Texas. This begs the
question, How many children born to these teens were taken from their mothers?
How many good ol boys were prosecuted for statutory rape? Medicaid
paid for 173,226 deliveries in Texas at an estimated total cost of $420 million
. . . Approximately 10% of these deliveries were to teen mothers aged-13-17, at
a cost of $41 million . . . Every 10 minutes, a teen in Texas gets
pregnant. Every 10 hours, a 14-year-old teen gets pregnant. Every 3
hours, a 15-year-old teen gets pregnant. Every 10 minutes a teen gives
birth. Every 48 minutes a teen has an abortion. . . . A wise
man once said, He who is without sin cast the first stone. It would appear from
the above facts that your glass house is about to get stoned for a policy of
social imperialism engineered by a Baptist Legislature and unilaterally enforced
on an ethnic minority. The Constitution is a pretty big stone Mr.
Hilderbran and its coming your way . . .
Way to go, Texas! Someone needs to save these brainwashed women from
themselves. The obvious psychological abuses perpetuated upon the children of
this group (of both genders) warrants such extreme action as has been taken.
Truly the hand of God can be said to have led this group to a place where at
least some of the children born into this non-religion can be saved. As for the
men, clearly a group of opportunistic perverts. Some people will claim anything
in order to get their way. The male perps all need to go to jail.
Here's what I think:I don't always like Texas, but if you're in any
state other than Utah or Arizona, and the CPS workers find underage pregnant
girls, YOU BETCHA THEY'RE GOING TO TAKE THE KIDS. If the FLDS were
actually "Mormons", then here's what they should believe in:1. The
12th Article of Faith (obeying and sustaining the law).2. That polygamy
and statutory rape are both illegal in Texas.3. That President Thomas S.
Monson is the ACTUAL Prophet, Seer, and Revelator today.4. That President
Willford Woodruff was correct when he received the Manifesto from the Lord, and
it would have countermanded any "claim" by President John Taylor when supposedly
gave four men the power to practice polygamy (which the "claim" doesn't exist).
I have the sympathy for those brainwashed women and children in
Stepford, Texas. They need constant therapy from hereon out.
Ya, I was going to say, go onto any street in america and you find young
pregnant girls. Are they married? Next to never. Do they have someone to take
care of them and their baby? If they are lucky they have parents to help them.
This is not about under age marriage, it is about religious persecution.
Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord.Peace I bring unto you.Love one
another.Love your enemies.
shame on you Texas! Having been raised in Texas for 17 years as a boy I
can only say...Texas is a good place to be FROM...won't ever live
there again...in this case they have TRULY overstepped their
authority...it IS timeoforachangeNOW
1. Why did Warren Jeffs discountinue sports, celebrations, and dances. Brigham
Young in particular approved of dances. 2. Why did Warren Jeffs harp so
much on Black people being a conduit of evil, when Elijah Abel and others were
ordained to the priesthood? Abel's activities were not restricted until the
1840s and both a son and grandson of his held priesthood office after him, yet
everyone knew. Mormonism under Joseph Smith did not specifically ban Blacks from
the priesthood. 3. Didn't President John Taylor quiety drop the Adam-God
Doctrine, that President Brigham Young taught?4. On the FLDSTruth.org
website, they describe Lorin Wooley as claiming in 1923 that, "The resurrection
is going on. There are those I have known in life who have passed away, and I
have since seen and shaken hands with them." What are the implications of that?
SJ Bobkins - Some of us aren't FLDS apologists so much as we are
civil libertarians who realize that what's happening to the FLDS now could
easily happen to us in a few years. If Texas wants to prosecute, then
prosecute. But play by the rules.Incidentally, the second paragraph
of your post is a classical "et tu" logical fallacy.
The FLDS apologists, which means (for those living in Beaver) defending the
faith not apologizing, are so active, it might seem that the majority view is in
strong disfavor with the Texas action, which doesn't reflect the results of all
the polls on the subject. Just know that we know you're out there and you have
more time on your hands.I would appreciate it if you would help me
understand how you can compare this action with Hitler's Germany, yet the FLDS
takes children away from it's men constantly? Along with property and wives,
which are also considered property, Jeff's rules that if a father isn't
forthcoming with his tithing plus $1000/month, or with his young daughters, or
if he makes a statement the leaders don't care for he's gone without the ability
to appeal the decision.The FLDS men in Texas will have the opportunity to
appeal. The Hitler's Germany comparison seems better connected to Colorado City,
than Texas.Don't you think that if God wished all men to have 3+ wives,
the female to male birth rate would be 3 to 1? I doubt God wishes that 2/3 rds
of the men be banished.
It is pretty obvious even the FDLS doesnt know how many children there are
either they lost count 100 births ago
"anyone believe what either Texas CPS or the FLDS have to say at this point?"I tend to agree. FLDS, regardless of how much their rights have been
trampled, aren't nominees for any good citizen awards. And Texas, my goodness,
"found" another child in their custody today--and said it was because it's
easier to get a better count in foster homes. Ohhkay--I don't think any adult
(or gov't agency) that cannot count should be trusted with 400-something
children.The difference is that CPS is a government agency, is
supposed to employ qualified personnel, and will ultimately be accountable for
this sort of thing. FLDS, well nobody really expected anything of them. But at least those numbers are going up rather than down.
The fathers and the male leaders are strangely silent or absent. Your
implication that they have something to hide is right on.Of course
they have something to hide. This country has, unconstitutionaly, made polygamy
illegal. And yes I say unconstitutionally because polygamy is a tenant of their
religion whether the rest of society believes it or not. If any of these men
attempt to stand up for their rights they will be told that they don't have any
and be convicted for living polygamy that is why there is no way of saying that
this raid is not based off of a relious biase and is ranks of religious
Harvey, when you say the polygamists violate Texas lifestyle and traditional
relationships, do you include homosexual activity and extramarital and
premarital sex? Those have been traditional for more than a century in Texas,
so are they protected? Swingers advertise for couplings in all your Texas big
city newspapers; is that OK with you as long as there are no 14- to 17-year-old
girls involved. And how about Texas boys having sex with girls in similar age
classes? Is that protected and tolerated by Texas tradition? Just asking.
Ouch! I just bit the inside of my mouth!
"Dearest G", I think G meant that you should collect evidence in accordance with
the safeguards incorporated in the Bill of Rights. You know--"innocent until
proven guilty", "probable cause" and all that.
This is good as soon as Texas is done with the FLDS they'll go after their
professional athletes too. The law is the law, right Texas?
Thank You for your suggestions.1) We are, thanks.2) We
have cells (and cellmates!) ready and waiting.3) Fat Chance. Why
would we return children to the cult to be abused as soon as they turn 12?
(Besides, there aren't many adults who will get past 2) above.)Kindest Regards,Texas
anyone believe what either Texas CPS or the FLDS have to say at this point?
Both are in this up to their necks. It will be good when these cases start to
be looked at child by child. That's when I expect the truth will really come
Not to turn this into a Mormon Battalion threadjack, but . . . As I
understand it, Young (or some other high church officials, or their
representatives) actually engineered the recruitment of the Mormon Battalion
through quiet negotiations in Washington. Lots in the US government didn't
think the Mormons were sufficiently loyal to serve in the army, but Young
realized that their salaries were desperately needed for the trip west.
"Child Protective Services spokesman Darrell Azar says 53 girls between the ages
of 14 and 17 were living on the ranch in Eldorado."Okay, 53 girls at
risk. How many kids did CPS actually take away? 400 or so? Here's my suggestion for Texas:(1) Get evidence(2)
Prosecute the males responsible.(3) Let the rest of the church get
on with their lives and live where they see fit.
It's all starting to come out:Child Protective Services spokesman
Darrell Azar says 53 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 were living on the
ranch in Eldorado. Of that group, 31 already have children or are pregnant.Child welfare officials say there was a pattern of underage girls forced
into "spiritual marriages" with much older men at the ranch.Loving
parents who were concerned about protecting their children from the evil
"outsiders"? Or child abusers?
I was taught the Mormon Battalion was considered a blessing because it provided
cash at a desperate time, and that Church leaders encouraged men to sign up.
"...everybody knows | 3:00 p.m. April 28, 2008the Mexican War
couldn't have been won with out the MORMON BATTALION. you're welcome,
Texas..."?"...For years, Mormons viewed the Mormon
Battalion as an unjust imposition upon the Mormons, and as a further act of
persecution by the United States (Carrington 1857, p. 5)...""...Approaching Tucson, in future Arizona, the battalion nearly had a battle
with a small detachment of provisional Mexican soldiers on December 16,
1846...""...Nearing the end of their journey, the battalion passed
through Temecula, California during the aftermath of the Temecula
Massacre..."Ummm..thanks for nearly getting into a battle, and
for arriving after another one and watching the dead get buried?
Hypocrite: a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs,
principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose
actions belie stated beliefs. Texas law enforcement establishment
credo: FLDS girls have children at a young age. They are wicked and
bad and we won't tolerate them because they believe in weird things and wear
long dresses and no makeup. Let's raid their church building and take away their
children and mothers. Inner-city girls have children at a young age.
They are to be supported and accepted because they are only reflecting the
culture they were brought up in. They dress like prostitutes, do drugs and wear
tons of makeup, but at least they don't have any funny religious beliefs. Let's
send them a bigger welfare check each month and subsidize their rent. Then fight
any effort by the state to separate them from their children.Anybody else smell the rank double standard?
Red Texan:You had better learn your law a little more before you
start lecturing. Marriage age of 14 is based on English Common Law and was
extent throughout the various states (with some variations). In fact, a number
of states back in the 1800s had 12 as the age of consent for the girl and 14 as
the age of consent for the boy because the original English Common Law had those
ages. During the 19th century the laws were slowly changed wih the
age creeping up to 14 and 14, respectively. Even so, some states had the age
several years older while some states continued until the first decade or so of
the 20th century to have the ages young (like 12 & 14 or 14 & 14). It has only
been in the 20th century (and now 21st century) that the expectation for age of
marriage/consent has risen to the older ages. That was because of the extension
of childhood and the urbanization of the nation in general.More
agrarian and traditional societies have always had a younger age of consent than
more urban societies.
You are right...it's worse!
irony when they read it
Red Texan: "G--it wasn't shame or religion but folks coming together to raise a
child. You know--us yahoos in Texas put the welfare of women and children pretty
high up there"Yeah, 14-year-old folks. Marrying kids
that are too young to legally have a job and expecting them to raise a child of
their own is not my idea of welfare for women or children, whether it's FLDS or
Southern Baptists, who marry their pregnant daughters to keep the neighbors from
shaming them. I don't see how anyone can possibly call that "helping" the
daughter is beyond comprehension, but not important to the point at hand. What irks me about this case, and I think a lot of others, is how so
many Texans come to bat for their own dirty laundry but at the same time cry
horror at the FLDS take on child marriage.I think many commentators
here could stand for more objectivity and less hypocrisy. Until then, it's clear
that this entire boondoggle is nothing more than religious bias. FLDS made the
neighbors nervous and the state took care of it at their first opportunity. If you want to find teenagers at risk, raid a clinic.
Everybody Knows - I wouldn't go that far. From a strategic standpoint the
Mormon Battalion didn't really do a heck of a lot, except wander around in the
wilderness for a few months (enduring great hardship and making military
history, to be sure). Heck, the war was practically over before they even got
to the battlefront.
the Mexican War couldn't have been won with out the MORMON BATTALION. you're
How long do you think it would take New Hampshire to change their marriage laws
if the FLDS were to establish a YFZ Ranch in New Hampshire?
"Where is the PROOF of abuse..."There can be no PROOF, in any case,
until there has been a trial.Until then, all we have is evidence and
PROBABLE CAUSE.That doesn't mean that people aren't allowed to look
at the evidence so far and form their own opinions.For PROOF of
abuse, look to your leader, Warren Jeffs and his many followers who have already
been convicted of child abuse for similar offenses.
Red Texan: Your knowledge of your own state's history is worse than your
knowledge of your own nation's constitution.Texas was just one of
many factors that triggered the Mexican War, and once the war started the US
Army made it into Mexico City just fine without Texas' help. Get
Practically speaking, I can see the difference. Legally speaking, I can't. The
law can't assume that all people of a group will behave identically even if
taught the same "precepts". Otherwise, our law enforcement will begin to
resemble the police in "Minority Report". You can't arrest people because
you're "sure" they will eventually break the law. According to many legal
experts that are speaking up, you can't take a parent's children because you're
"sure" that his/her beliefs will lead to abuse years later. That's not how our
civil or criminal legal systems are supposed to work. And thank goodness for
SL Trib is reporting 31 of 53 teenaged girls from FLDS compound have been
pregnant. Systemic abuse.Go Texas!
G--it wasn't shame or religion but folks coming together to raise a child. You
know--us yahoos in Texas put the welfare of women and children pretty high up
there. Plenty of children are adopted out in Texas, as elsewhere, but it is not
for everyone and we don't force that on girls either. I know it's kind of hard
for you so I'll speak slowly: t h e l a w w a s f o r t h e e x c e p
t i o n, n o t t h e r u l e - o r i n t h i s c a s e e v e r y d
a y a b u s e a n d c h i l d r a p e.
We shall see.
The ACLU filed a law suit for NAMBLA (Old geezers that want to have sex with
young boys.)The ACLU had better act for the FLDS or it will show them as the
liberal cesspool that they are. I feel sorry for most of the FLDS people
because all their children were removed without due process and without proof of
imminent harm to all their children. The problem these people face is back woods
justice. Where capital punishment is a sport.
Where is the PROOF of abuse, posters against the FLDS???? You all speculate and
rehash the ignorance spewed by anti-Christian mobsters and illegitimate
moralists on this forum but where is YOUR PROOF of wrong doing? Just an opinion,
your view or feelings doesnt cut it. Individuals not groups are held accountable
for breaking a law. Where is your proof Texas CPS that you can hold these
entire people hostage and forcibly collect information to use against them? Are
you still waiting for Public sympathy to make your case legal? Innuendo and
maybes arent proof it in a real justice system Texas CPS! These people have
Constitutional guarantees against government interference and a system of due
process when real laws are broken. You have a collective NOTHING on all these
people so drop the protection act and return the children to their mothers. Do
the right thing, Judge Walther, return the case back to the Devil where it
"The reason Texas used to allow 14 year-olds to marry was because the kids were
pregnant, single-parent offspring faced discrimination and the divorce rate was
low."There is no excuse for underage pregnancy, even if it's
Baptists practicing it. That's still underage girls being pressured
into marriage to fulfill religious purposes (covering the shame of single
motherhood), only when non-"Mormons" practice it lots of Texans are willing to
go to the bat for them. I ask again, do they not have adoption in
Texas? Because I fail to see any common sense in marrying off a child just
because she pregnant simply because you're afraid of what your neighbors think.
This particular Texan mentality doesn't seem so different from the FLDS to me.
Brent Jeffs couldn't make children, that didn't protect him from abuse.
While you plig apologists are bashing Texas, you might want to stop and consider
that without us and our courageous ("Don't Mess with Texas") stands at San
Jacinto, Goliad and the Alamo, there would be no western US. You would all be
part of Mexico, and I would just love to see what due process you could count on
there.As for the law being changed from 14 (13 only by a judge) to
16, this was to provide for parents of kids who had gotten into "trouble"
voluntarily. It became clear after the FLDS moved in that it had the potential
to enable child abusers and rapists.Go Harvey! Go Texas. Thanks
for having the courage that others lacked! Texas can be forever known as
protecting women and children from pligs and their meglomania and abuse.
The.Great.State.of.Texas. God bless her forever.
We have never known a Lawyer or an FLDS member to lie before...NOT
This was not actually an apartment building of different people with different
beliefs from different walks of life. This was a compound of Polygamists that
were all receiving their orders and endoctrination from the same "Prophet": Can
you see the difference?
FLDS functioned as a group, all members practicing the same. There are no
distinct "families", half of the women don't even know who their own children
are. If there were illegal practices in the compound the only choice is to
protect all the children, for the purpose of the "bound and gagged" example all
400+ children live in the same apartment as the lady you discover being
Their purpose is to make children, as many and as often as possible. With this
mindset, why would they abuse girls who can't have children? You
can't legally hold all people of a group responsible for what one or some do.
I didn't say there was a monogamous household on the ranch, their
lawyers did. Since this is easy to verify, I doubt their lawyers would make it
up. But we shall see.
Law is my next-door-neighbor holding a gun to my head and commanding me to do
what I would not, or refrain from what I wish."We didn't invite them
here, but by God we are going to make sure they follow the law," Hilderbran
said. "This violates Texas values and our lifestyle and the way we see
traditional relationships. We are not going to tolerate it."'nuff
Of course not! Let's look at a more applicable example. You are a policeman
walking down the street, and you hear a woman's screams coming from an apartment
building. You decide to enter the building, and you find the screams are coming
from a TV, but there is a woman bound and gagged with a man torturing her.
After arresting the man and freeing the woman, should you then search every
other apartment in the building assuming that women are bound and gagged in each
one or that they may eventually be bound and gagged if what goes on in that
building is allowed to continue?Same answer - Of course not!
So it is your belief that if Texas had taken all of the girls 12-17 that the
perverts would not decide that girls under the age of 12 would be acceptable.
And that also applies to the boys. Read the story of Brent Jeffs who was
molested as a young boy by his Uncles. And he was the Grandson of the Prophet. I
do not believe there were monogamous households in this compound. These people
were hand picked and brought to Texas only 4 years ago. I don't think they would
have brought some that did not practice the beliefs.
Scenario: You are a policeman walking down the street and you hear a womans
screams coming from a house. The screams are loud and asking for Help. You
decide to enter the residence and you find the Screams are coming from the TV
but there is a woman bound and gagged with a man torturing her. Should you close
the door and leave since she was not able to scream and you were not responding
to her scream?
It is not "standard practice" (even in Texas) to remove all children in all
cases of abuse. According to my research, CPS has the option of removing none,
some or all children, depending on the circumstances. They are expected to
apply the "imminent harm" rule to all children they remove. So, explain how the
"imminent harm" rule applies to the monogamous couple with young children (not
close to 12) who lived on ranch property in their own house? (And according to
the Texas lawyers represnting them, such a couple exists.)I'm glad
they removed all girls ages 12-17. I'm sure some of the boys and younger
children should have been removed, but I don't think they'll be able to justify
the removal of all the children of all ages from all parents. That's like using
howitzer to kill a bear - unnecessary, overreaching and abusive of power.
In point of fact, neither the Nauvoo Expositor building nor the press itself was
"burned" by Smith or the Nauvoo authorities. The press was destroyed with a
sledgehammer and the type scattered in the street (the same as was done to the
Mormon press in Independence, Missouri--except the Nauvoo action was done by
city authorities and after a protracted hearing of the City Council). The Expositor's publishers, William Law and Robert Foster, set fire to the
building after the city authorities left and then hightailed it to Carthage
where they spread the story that the Mormons had destroyed the building as well
as the press. Unfortunately for them, a Nauvoo policeman discovered the fire
and it was extinguished before any significant damage was done to the structure.
Anyone who had bothered to come to Nauvoo to follow up on Law and Foster's
story would have found the Expositor building still standing, and for the most
I understand the concerns expressed about due process etc etc, however the usual
pattern is for the lawyers to dicker and grow rich while the victims continue
to suffer.If Texas' tactics are "questionable" then I saw take the
kids and run and let the lawyers dicker after the fact.The magnitude
of the wrong and the helplessness of the victims suggests a more proactive
approach vs endless legal wrangling.
Just because the means are messy doesn't make them illegal or oppressive.
"The ends are worth the means" is also contrary to the admonition to "obey,
honor and sustain the law."And you don't need to follow up with a
statement about FLDS lawbreaking. Of course, they are lawbreakers of the first
order - polygamy (or adultery, take your pick), underage marriages, illegal
restraint...True also that they have brought this upon their own
heads. But I will never shout "GO TEXAS", when Texas's tactics are legally
questionable at best.
You said it perfectily. It eludes me why there are so many people commenting on
here that cannot see what is so clear. I can only assume it is due to a
prejudice that has formed due to some kind of an endoctrination that has occured
in their lifetime.
I will forever associate FLDS with child abuse.
To about MO mobs:While I understand the point you are trying to
make, I would suggest that if you really think Joseph Smith was killed for
destroying other people's property then you should do some more reading and
studying of Mormon history. Smith's death was the result of a number of factors,
the least of which was the actual destruction of the press (which, I might add,
took place in other towns in antebellum America -- so Joseph Smith and the
Nauvoo city council had precendent for their actions).
You are clever in your board names - I'll give you that. "The ends are worth
the means" is the battle cry of either the oppressed or the oppressor. Which is
Glad to see the applicable Texas law printed. The reason Texas used
to allow 14 year-olds to marry was because the kids were pregnant, single-parent
offspring faced discrimination and the divorce rate was low. The FLDS intended
to use this law to encourage its 14 year-old girls to marry, have sex and give
birth. That wasn't the intention of this law and the reasons for this law no
longer existed, so it was changed.When two stupid 14 year-olds are
hot for each other and as a result one gets pregnant, that is not a CPS issue.
A CPS issue is when an adult male engages in a predatory relationship(sex)with
an underage girl. There is an imbalance of power. "Imminent harm"
applies directly to the teens in this sect and clearly justifies their removal.
In this case, twenty underage girls had babies or fetuses. The mothers, fathers
and "marriage" partners are not acting in the best interest of their children.
Because of this, for each underage girl, her parents' and her "husband's"
children are removed. It's standard practice. The siblings of the girl who died
of treatable diabetes have been removed from their praying, anti-medicine
The practices of FLDS make it unlikely any solution will involve a satisfying
clear cut legal "knight in shining armor". It will be a messy drawn out
struggle, not for the squimish or faint of heart. The stakes are so
high for the children, however, that then ends are worth the means.There are lots of examples for comparison if one wishes to discuss state over
reach that actually might have a passing resemblance to events in Texas; the
Missouri and Nauvoo mob actions do not.
For heaven's sake, there is a lot of "if you're not with me, you're against me"
thinking on this board. If you don't stand and applaud Texas without
reservation, then you're some kind of flunky for the FLDS. Well, I
for one, don't buy into that kind of thinking. What you have here are a large
number of innocent children and, likely, some innocent parents. The FLDS have
abused them and now the State of Texas is abusing them. If you hate
the FLDS, then, hey, "GO TEXAS". If you hate government interference, then the
FLDS are just a bunch of religious people being destroyed by Texas.Neither one of these is true. The FLDS have become increasingly strange and
dangerous. Actions need to be taken to enforce the law, and ensure that they
understand that breaking the child abuse laws, no matter when they were inacted,
will not be tolerated.However, the state also has the obligation to
ensure constitutional rights and settled law are followed as they take action.
Texas has not done this. And don't take my word for it; numerous legal experts
have raised serious concerns about the actions of Texas.
Joseph Smith was incarcerated for burning down a printing press when they were
about to expose his polygamy. Ultimately vigilante justice murdered him. This
action is VERY different, so I do not understand why so many bring up Joseph
Smith or the LDS church save that both consider J.S. their founding father.
Polygamy was not the issue to either though both actively participate(d) in that
form of marriage. Joseph Smith died because he destroyed property not his own.
The FLDS are in trouble because they chose not to obey the law and marry
children away, against their will, and sometimes to close relatives. Leave
Joseph out of it!
I admire the restraint of the FLDS parents, and they are saints if they maintain
their restraint. I wouldn't blame them if they turned to violence, though.
After all, that's what the Founders did.
Go Texas. Finally a State with some guts.
"By God", Harvey? *"BY GOD"*? Tells me all I need to know about
You are free to resent the Evangelicals and Baptist to your heart's content but
when you let that resentment seduce you into defending FLDS then you are
throwing in with the worst kind of evil, and it will rub off on you.It seems like too high a price, but that may just be me.
This whole situation is scary. Sure polygamy and sexual abuse are wrong and
against the law, but the way that Texas is handling this is frighteningly
similar to the days of Mormon persecution in the 1800s. I agree that it's a
little fishy that the Texas government didn't see fit to change the law about
the legal age of marriage until it was aimed at a particular religion. It also scares me that CPS has so much power...people are now guilty
until proven innocent.
First of all, I am not defending the FLDS -- I disagree with their theology and
most of their social customs. I am, hoever, offended by the actions of the CPS
and law officials. They have overstepped their bounds and this has turned into a
travesty of justice.People have said CPS followed the laws and did
the right thing. Here is a question than. The hoax caller claimed to have been
beaten several times and to have been taken to the hospital with bruised or
broken ribs. In other states it is a law to report possible abuse when someone
is brought to the hospital with questionable injuries. Therefore, there should
have been a record that both CPS and law officials could have checked to verify
the claim made by the hoax caller.There is no evidencee that was
done -- I personally think they were just waiting for some excuse to raid the
compound. That is not justice, that is trampling on basic civil rights because
the FLDS do not conform to the majority white, evangelical Protestants. That is
where this action has not been to protect the children but to go after the FLDS
with a vengeance.
The FLDS don't have any missionaries. That's another part of the scriptures
they don't follow. One of many.
I was not comparing the FLDS to the early saints. I was comparing the actions
of Texas to the actions of the authorities in Missouri and Illinois. I'm in no
way defending the FLDS. Unfortunately, I believe that Texas will now have
trouble prosecuting anybody, and I would like to see them prosecute the evil
perpetrators within the FLDS.You seem to be saying that it is okay
for the state to act in way they see fit as long as they (and the public) are
"sure" that they are going after the bad guys. That may result in stopping some
abuse in this case, but where do you draw the line? If the state can take any
actions they see fit (constitutional or otherwise) based on their own moral
compass, there will be innocents harmed in the future.The "good
people' of Jackson County thought they were right to take their actions against
us (and they clearly weren't). The State of Texas thinks they're right to take
the actions they have against the FLDS (and to some extent, they likely are).
But the ends don't justify the means.And please, there is no need to
let me get this straigth , when your own prophet is in jail w/out bail...for
rape, then there's 14-16 year olds running around on yeah right a RANCH...sounds
more like the chicken ranch to me, then everyone is crying foul...and i have
asked before where can i contact these guys missionaries in all fairness as i am
a laminite..who these guys claim wrote the BoM...to get to the truth and nothing
but the truth!
"Can't you see a difference between the young girls that are running around the
streets of Dallas and Houston getting pregnant and A group that controls these
girls from birth and FORCES them to submit to molestation by old perverts."No, because consent laws don't recognize a difference. The politics are
the only difference: raid an abortion clinic and your political career is over.
Attacking a compound belonging to religious "weirdos" that make their neighbors
nervous is a good way to get the Evangelical vote next election.
I don't like the way some evanalicals raise their kids at all. Nope. Can't have
that. So, I want the big megga churches raided this weekend, and all the
children under the age of 20, taken away, until it can be sorted out who the
parents REALLY are. In my case, DNA would not work, as all my kids are adopted.
But heck, I'm not (thanfully) in Texas where the rule of law is flouted for the
sake of the dominent religion.
Harvey "helped pass legislation strengthening the states marriage laws IN
RESPONSE to the FLDS Church presence in his state."Is this not
religious persecution: UNCONSTITUTIONAL?
"Texas FLDS is a case of government acting legally and with moral authority to
protect children from depraved abusers."Legally and with moral
authority? That's debatable.Depraved abusers? yeah whatever.
The others that married at 14 were prior to the change in the law. And the Key
word is "Married" in Texas that is between one man and one woman and performed
after receiving a "marriage license". And if they are under the age of consent,
which is now 16, the parents must be present, consent and show proof of the
childs age. NONE of this has been done by the FLDS with their "spiritual
marriage". They take a young girl of whatever age they deem appropriate and
FORCE her into a relationship with a man that is old enough to be her
grandfather. That my friend is wrong and the perverts should go to jail. I think
they will before it is over.
You feel that when a bad law is detected it should not be changed to protect
innocent children. Can't you see a difference between the young girls that are
running around the streets of Dallas and Houston getting pregnant and A group
that controls these girls from birth and FORCES them to submit to molestation by
old perverts. I am proud of Mr. Hilderbran, Texas and Proud to be a Texan.
"They should have reviewed our history. ... I am surprised they didn't check it
out here. We're tougher on crime and a little no-nonsense.""The
message from Texas is that we're not going to allow older men to sexually
assault or commit rape of minors or marry minors here... I think our law
enforcement and our agencies are doing right."Interesting. So, all
the children can be pulled because of one apparently fake phone call. If there
have been crimes committed, more power to them. But the lack of selectivity and
heavy handedness would make the third reich proud. The tax payers in Texas
better hang onto their wallets. This one is going to end up costing them a bit.
The other point is- now that the texas authorities have acted unilaterally, you
know they know that their jobs are on the line if they can't produce crimes-
lots of them. It will be interesting to see what is fact and what is fiction.
Leaving the children at YFZ would have been better for the children?? Sure,
Better for the flds male leaders and the complicit mothers, but hardly better
for the children. If you have an environment that is harmful to children you
remove the children from that environment. If you left 11 year old girls there
would you go back in in 2 years when they are 13? By then the girls would have
been sent to Colorado, South Dakota, British Columbia to be marrie off as the
4rth wife to some 50 year old man. Better to get the all of the chilldren out of
there. GO TEXAS..
What Harvey Hilderbran did is also illegal and ruled unconstitutional by the US
Supreme Court.ROMER v. EVANSOn May 20, 1996, the U.S.
Supreme Court overturned Amendment 2 toColorado's State Constitution.
Voter-approved in 1992, the amendmentwas titled, "No Protected Status
Based on Homosexual, Lesbian, orBisexual Orientation."The
Court's majority declared Amendment 2 unconstitutional because itwas an
"impermissible targeting" of a "class" of people; it had"impermissibly
Texas FLDS is a case of government acting legally and with moral authority to
protect children from depraved abusers.Missouri and Nauvoo were the
Saints suffering religious persecution of the vilest kind.They are
in no way comparable or similar.To compare the FLDS abusers to those
early Saints does an gross injustice to the memory of the Saints.To
use the moral currency earned by those early Saints to defend FLDS is
PERVERSE.It is also unfair to LDS members to draw such
However at the 14-day hearing, the children's (and the parents') representatives
were not permitted to individually address the judge and question CPS. They
were forced to work as groups, so individual differences in circumstances did
not come forward. I understand that their is a monogamous couple that lives on
the ranch in their own home. Their young children were also taken. Another
divorced, single woman with a child lived there. These people had no chance in
that hearing to bring out their unique circumstances.I'm hopeful
that much of this gets worked out over time, but how do you repay the innocent
children (all of them) and parents (some of them) for the time lost, the trauma
caused, the health issues, etc.? The checks and balances on CPS in this case
have been far too weak.
Cougar: that is why CPS has checks and balances, why every child is appointed an
attorney and a guardian (CASA). The State has their position that they portray
to the Judge, the Attorneys job is to represent to the Judge what the child
WANTS, and CASAs job is represent to the Judge what the child wants and NEEDS.
The parents have the opportunity to have attorneys appointed or can retain them
on their own. CPS may have the power to remove (with a Judges order), but once
that happens there are many others that do not work for CPS who get involved.
Ask yourself..if our kids were such bad parents and we raised them, why are we
now relative caregivers? The kids grew up and rejected our values, and now we
are trusted to clean up the mess our grandkids were raised in. The schools
taught tem to not relyh on God and report your parents for abusing you. CALL 911
and it got out of hand. So many false reports. I saw these children take better
care of than most folks ever do. Since when do we need to rescue kids from
parents. Just for they beliefs of the church.Have you noticed the rescues we did
overseas? And no cps there.Big Brother is watching you. How about texass get a
new slogan..no door or family left unbroken.
The Jackson County mob met in the Independence Courthouse. The leaders of the
mob included Samuel D. Lucas, judge of the county court; Samuel C. Owens, county
clerk; John Smith, justice of the peace; William Brown, constable; and Thomas
Pitcher, deputy constable. Lilburn W. Boggs, lieutenant governor of Missouri,
abetted the mob's actions. Though appearing sympathetic, Governor
Daniel Dunklin was either unable or unwilling to take any effective action to
deal with the mob.Of course, the situation in Texas is different.
The actions there do not come near to the nefarious illegalities of Missouri and
Illinois. However, when legal authorities do not uphold their oaths to follow
the constitution (ensuring rights and due process), then to whom do the innocent
go for redress? This story has a long way to play out, and some of the state's
excesses will hopefully be addressed and corrected to the extent possible.You were unnecessarily judgemental (and somewhat incorrect) when you
referred to the previous comments about Missouri and Nauvoo as "perverse".
I think that if need be, Governor Perry of Texas can and will call on that
former Texas Governor, George Bush to get some federal help to protect the Texas
CPS and do what is necessary to prosecute the flds leaders. If I were an flds
leader I would think of taking a long vacation in a country that does not have
an extradition treaty with the USA.
My understanding (from legal sources within Texas) is that at the 14-day
hearing, each child and each parent had the right to question CPS individually
to establish if the state's actions were merited in the case of their
individual. Judge Walther did not allow this to happen. Therefore, you have
numerous writs of habeas corpus being filed trying force Texas to bring the
individual children before a judge so that it can be determined if they are
being wrongfully detained. It does not matter how hard it is for
the state to ensure due process to each individual. Texas has an obligation to
It's kind of weird that they haven't taken the men away. I mean, if there's all
this abuse going on, wouldn't they take away the criminals?Unless,
of course, very little abuse has been going on, they don't have enough evidence
to take away the men, and the CPS has broken the law big time...we'll just have
GETTA TEXAS, LAWS ARE FOR EVERYONE NOT JUST SOME OF US... WAY TO GO...
I have no problem with Texas values or their dedication to keep it traditional.
I just don't like the selectiveness of the enforcement. I've been to the multi
level apartments in Texas towns and most other large cities in every state in
the union. Talk about co-habitation!!! These kids don't evan know who their
father is and few of them have the same father. And talk about girls being
mothers! And I will gurantee who is paying for all of their housing, utilities,
clothes, health care and what education they do get. I would say evan if the
FLDS are getting a little welfare, as a business man I'd take the FLDS any day.
Don't try to tell me that this was done for the sake of the children. 400+
compared to the thousands in the situation described above not of FLDS
orentation but none the less indoctrinated and imprisoned by tradition and
Still waiting to see the State of Texas' case of all this abuse people are
refering to.If the State of Texas can't abide by the law, then why
should the FLDS be expected to?If someone broke the law, arrest
them. Oh, no evidence for a criminal prosectution? No problem, we can just
kidnap all their children and that solves everything, NOT. Unless you are
willing to admit that your strategy is to use genocide.If someone
broke the law, put up or shut up. Don't hide behind a smoke screen of
"protecting the children." Those preadolesent children were much safer a YFZ
Ranch than they are in foster care. Perhaps a case could made for removing
girls aged 11 through 16 (mind you the case hasn't been made). All the rest of
those children were in no danger and were much better cared for than the average
Texas child.This about religion, plain and simple. I
hadn't realized what a hold the Nazis had on Texas.
I agree that this whole thing could have been better. Rather than removing the
women and children and leaving the men, the MEN should have been rounded up and
taken to jail. In most states you can hold someone for 48 hours on suspicion
alone. They got the call (yes, now a Hoax, but good enough for the raid) and
they could have picked up all the men on suspicion of committing a crime,
witnessing a crime, being party to a crime. etc. They would have them all
fingerprinted, pictures taken, etc. They could have left the women
and children at the Ranch. CPS could have had a presence there. Plain-clothed
Law enforcement could have stayed there. They are spending over a million
dollars on the rounding up and caring for the kids. They could have paid for
people to remain at the Ranch to oversea it. Doing it the way they
did... now they have older children even MORE upset and convinced the
"outsiders" are evil. They have women who might need help seeing the state as
the enemy. And the men, well, the men who most likely did wrong are gone with
I lived in Texas until I was 23. I'm not an apologist for anyone, but I'm a
critical thinker and I'm objective, and I have yet to see any evidence of
anything illegal at the YFZ ranch. I see the CPS repeatedly claiming they have
evidence, but utterly failing to produce it. They've released a document with
three women on it they think are pregnant. One turns eighteen in a couple
months, so her pregnancy cannot at all be illegal. Another is only presumed to
be pregnant because she refused to take a pregnancy test. Another was underage
when she gave birth to her first child over a decade ago in another state. A lot
of people here are condemning the FLDS because they assume a priori that they're
guilty. I would say I'm glad those people aren't running the government, but it
appears most of the officials in Texas are the same way, and that's abominable.
Once this gets out of the hands of Texas' frontier justice courts the United
States is going to come down hard on those abusive CPS workers and Judge
When this mess gets sorted out I hope that any laws broken by the raiding Texas
authorities will be enforced and violators prosecuted just as throughly as they
are attempting to prosecute the FLDS for their crimes. My LDS grandmother spoke
harsh words about polygamists when I was a child, but I know that she would have
hated seeing nursing children pulled from their mothers and deprived of good
nutrition, regardless of the crimes of the children's fathers and complicity by
How do you collect welfare for a child if you don't have a birth certificate to
prove it's your child?
What due process are you talking about? The women went voluntarily with the
children. The men are still free on the ranch as they always have been. The
women who returned to the ranch are just as free. To establish that the
children were not kidnaped, their DNA was taken in order to be returned to their
rightful parents. No one has been arrested for "due process" to take place. If
it is found that sexual abuse has occurred THEN there will be charges brought
and due process will proceed. "Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we
practice to deceive" It's nobody's business why they bought the land. They
didn't have to deceive the community. But they did. It's their tangled web.
They are responsible for this whole horrible mess. A ye sow so shall ye reap.
Why is desnews publishing this. This evidence can never be used in criminal
The actions in Missouri and Nauvoo were state-sanctioned mob actions.
Due process applies to both civil and criminal cases. The 14-day hearing circus
did not allow due process for the both the children and the parents. Every
child (through their ad litems) and every parent (through their lawyers) had the
right to face CPS individually and question their assertions. Did that
happen?Well established child custody law requires that a
"reasonable person" would conclude that "imminent harm" is likely to occur
unless the children are removed. Was there "imminent harm" present for the
nursing babies, toddlers, etc.?I want Texas to apply its laws, but
the state is also obligated to operate within the law. Otherwise, there are no
safeguards. The FLDS are no exceptions to the law - and neither is the State of
The FLDS have been thumbing their noses at the laws of the United States for a
hundred years. I'm glad to see someone is taking steps to stop this tradition.
I just hope it sticks.
The abuse of religion here is BY the FLDS, not against it. They are engaged in
pervasive criminal abusive behavior and seek to excuse it and avoid answering to
the law by calling it religion.Reasonable people see that legal
authorities in Texas are struggling in the face of a difficult situation to
protect the children and enforce the law. Reasonable people are sickened by the
scale and circumstances of the abuse at YFZ and applaud efforts to eliminate
it.Comparisons to Missouri or Nauvoo are perverse. Those were
illegal mob actions against innocent people.
The flds lived in Utah and Arizona for a long time before the authorities
prosecuted them and got some convictions. They were in Texas for only a few
years before Texas reacted with a raid and DNA testing of everyone. In addition
to their unsavory lifestyle the flds are also racist. Reading or hearing Warren
Jeffs' views on blacks is chilling. He (the flds) consider blacks to be inferior
to whites and to be a cursed race. How anyone can support them is beyond me.
This is the way CPS works every day. They play by different rules than criminal
courts do. That is why it can become dangerous. They have saved many children
but have harmed many more. They do not need evidence, proof, or facts...just a
"feeling" by women who may not have children themselves and in most cases and
have been taught that all parents do not know how to parent and are incompetent.
Google CPS corruption--even in YouTube.. I cried all night long. CPS has a job
but they are leaving a wide field of destruction in their paths...and this
involves LIVES. I even found recordings of people placing orders for
neighborhood children to adopt and CPS saying they would get them for them. They
have higher price tags for blond hair white children=more money for the state. I
am not a conspiracy theorist but when CPS does not do what their own PhD
psychiatrist suggests and would have taken the newborns (which there is rumor
that 6 have been taken since the raid to mothers who have birthed them since
then) and infants under 12 months had it not been a divine hand of God on
Walthers--makes you wonder.
In this whole situation it was good to finally hear the laws stated and
listed.Yes, it is totally sad from many sides.I applaud Texas for
following its laws.The FLDS have broken laws from the beginning by nottelling the truth about why they purchased the land.How can anyone think
that you can break the law. But then the FLDS think they are exceptions to the
at least we protect our children in texas. the CPS action is a civil action, it
has no bearing one way or another on the criminal action. they are different
burdens of proof. so even if the criminal case fizzles, the CPS case will go on,
parental rights can still be terminated or individual families can be reunited.
none of this would happen if children were not being groomed to be
raped, groomed to be breeders and if babies were not being waterboarded in an
effort to teach them to keep sweet.
Yeah that is right, punish the men by taking the children away from their
mothers, makes perfectly good sense to me! That's almost like fining me for a
speeding ticket by taking away my wife's drivers license and her car? In future
generations this will be seen as a "historical blunder" and totally mishandled.
If Texas is so tough on crime does this also include the breaking of
constitutional rights to Freedom of Worship and Religious Freedom being
violated? I am not supporting "Polygamy" at all, but to shred every family in
the Ranch is surely a violation of Religious Freedoms to those people.
there is NO constitutional protection to violate the laws and call it freedom of
religion. the supreme court has ruled time and again that religious freedoms
must be kept within the bounds of the law. not to long ago in this country
lynching was a "religious" expression, witch burning was a "religious"
cleansing. human and animal sacrifice in the name of religion is also not legal.
i fail to see how rape, incest, abuse, and imprisonment are protect "religious"
behaviors.you dont see the FLDS men because standard operating
procedure is run out the crying women and children and play up the emotions of
everyone. we tend to forget that these "mothers" sold thier daughters into this.
they are willing participants in the lifestyle of rape, incest, abuse, and
imprisonment. it doesnt matter rto the FLDS male leadership what you do as long
as all you see is the women crying tears and wailing with hurt and injustice.
you are being manipulated and have fallen victim to a well orginized and
rehearsed propaganda machine.maybe texas did over react but the law
will work all of that out. lets not read protections into the constitution that
are not there.
He says they are "tough on crime." Does that include hate crimes committed
against the FLDS?
No apologies for the FLDS here. But does Texas have a right to deny due process
to anyone? Does Texas have a right to disregard well established child custody
law that uses the "imminent harm" test for taking and keeping children away from
parents? If you think the ends justify the means, then you are not supporting
the constitutional law of the land.Texas (and all other states)
should take reasonable action to protect children, but they must scrupulously
follow the law, respecting the rights even of the suspected criminal. Anything
less than this leads to more Missouris and Nauvoos.
What are you talking about? What about the convictions of Warren Jeffs, Rodney
Holm, Terrill C. Johnson, David Ortell Kingston, Jeremy Kingston, Tom Green,
Kelly Fischer, Donald Barlow, Orson William Black, David Bateman, Dale Barlow,
etc. in Utah and Arizona. Why do you think the FLDS started building compounds
in Texas, Colorado and South Dakota?Unfortunately, the probable
cause for the search warrant of the El Dorado compound looks weak. While this
didn't stop CPS from their ludicrous overreaction, it lowers the chance that
Texas will get any convictions out of this. And anyway, don't you expect that
the men who broke the law are long gone now? Texas was too busy herding mothers
and children to pay attention.
"RE the article--only if you've lived in Texas can you understand: "Don't
Mess with Texas!!!""I agree "don't mess with Texas". Give them back
It is true that in other states, and especially in the South,the ambivalence
toward polygamy that apparently exists among Utah civil authorities is
absent.It is a mistake to attribute that to anti-Mormon sentiment.Many LDS where I live feel nothing but revulsion for FLDS practices. I am
aware of nothing in LDS teachings that would lead members to condone in the
least degree FLDS practices, quite the opposite.As a "mission field" LDS I
find many of the attitudes posted on these boards supportive of YTF puzzling and
disturbing.One also really wonders what made FLDS think Texas would
be a supportive place. Quite a miscalculation, but a blessing for the
How would you feel if it was your child that was kidnapped, forced into such an
environment and molested (under the guise of religious freedom). Yet that is
exactly what has happened to many Men (and more than a few women) who appose or
disagree with the FLDS Leadership.Their children are "removed" from
that individual and "given" to another (susposably better) individual or family.
It is appaling the level of deception and manipulation the leaders of the FLDS
and their "faithful" followers go to to distort the truth.Let Texas
do their very dificult job and we will eventually see what the truth really is.
The Waco incident was an FBI operation.
This is my estimate of the results:Texas: 1 conviction.FLDS: $1,000,000,000.00
Hmmm...a lot of polygamy apologists posting today (or is it just one or two
posting again and again under different names??). Yes there's human tragedy here
of children being separated from their mothers. Aside from those who think the
whole FLDS scenario is OK, is there any better way to prevent underage girls
from being married off to much older men (or forcibly married to a cousin or
someone else)? The boys who are booted from the nest when the hormones start
kicking in so they don't spoil the "perfect" scenario for the duffers are no
less the victims. Don't many of them retain their brainwashed outlook on life
and find a naive young girl with whom to start their own little clan? My guess
is that's the source for all these mini-enclaves we find embedded in
neighborhoods throughout the west.There's no painless way to remove
children from an abusive situation. You just have to do it (and do it NOW)
hoping and praying you weren't too late to rehabilitate the children and give
them hope of a somewhat normal, self-directed, happy life.RE the
article--only if you've lived in Texas can you understand: "Don't Mess with
Why were the children taken from the monagomous families at the ranch?
According to the Washington Post, Texas is going to argue that all FLDS children
were at risk because the FLDS culture encouraged girls to marry and bear
children in their teens.This from the state that ranked, according
to Guttmacher Institute, second highest in the country in teenage (15-19 years
old)birthrates in 2000. In 2001, the Texas Department of Health announced that 1
out of every 34 teenage girls ages 13-17 gets pregnant and that 13.1% were
repeat births. But thank goodness the Texas officials felt the FLDS chilren (all
of them down to babies) were in imminent danger because of their belief in
marrying and having children young -- they jumped right in there, took the
children and are now placing some of the females into foster homes for pregnant
teens. I guess from these statistics there should be plenty of teen preganncy
homes available and one can only imagine the great atmosphere and potential
influence on these girls who had come from loving families and homes.I don't know about the rest of you, but I smell hypocrisy wafting up from
Texas and it doesn't smell very good.
I don't believe the government lost anyone after that raid....
Scary --- NAZI GERMANY
"This violates Texas values and our lifestyle and the way we see traditional
relationships. We are not going to tolerate it."An interesting
choice of words. The FLDS didn't believe in Texas (Southern Baptist)
"values", "lifestyles" and "traditional relationships", and many Texans
apparently don't "tolerate" other religious views. So they took advantage of
abuse allegations to kick them out of the state. Did you notice his
remarks about the hunting preserve? That makes me suspect they were thinking
about coming after them for zoning violation.
The Texas Spin Machine is working on a new song anddance. The truth is
being revealed, that this RAIDwas, and is about religion. The Baptists are
flexingtheir religous bigotry, thru the power of the stateof Texas.
Rome did the same thing 2,000 years ago.Things truly never change. The Exalted Harvy Hilderbran has crawled out for hisday in the sun, and
is prancing for a greater officesuch as the Govenorship.
Be aware of EX POST FACT LAW
I fully agree. The fathers and the male leaders are strangely silent or absent.
Your implication that they have something to hide is right on. The only father I
have heard about is the man from Nevada who was kicked out of the flds and had
his children assigned to another man.
If he is right, we should all be supporting stricter laws enforcing marriage as
a legal institution between one man and one woman. This should be a federal
mandate. Further, we should not tolerate ANY sexual exploit of
underage girls - "married" or not. Of course if we follow Tesas' example, we
should round up whole groups of children who were the product of such young
mothers (often unwed and therefore similar to the "spiritual wives" of the FLDS)
and separate them from their mothers for their own good. We should put them in
foster homes because clearly there was sexual abuse and could be other problems
as well, related to poverty, communal living and immoral attitudes. Surely foster care would be superior over a single, teenage mother, right?
This is the message they are sending. Foster care does not have a record for
producing great results. Why isn't Texas worried about the other
mothers, sometimes a young as 12? Why does the country allow abortions without
questions. No baby; no problem? Oh, yeah, we made that "legal." Is Texas
sending "raiders" out to the abortion clinics to round up all these young girls
who have clearly been violated?
There is only one right way to live. Texas has identified it (until they change
it again) and is enforcing it at he barrel of a gun. What's the problem?I wonder how long it will be before Texas finds out what Jews and many
Christians do to their newborn sons . . . .
Perhaps he should of worked harder on cleaning the drugs out of his own county.
To keep the children safe in Kerr county from the drugs there. We should clean
off our own front porches before we clean up someone elses.
"This violates Texas values and our lifestyle... We are not going to tolerate
it." HilderbranWow! That's powerful, Hilderbran. Your lifestyle
allowed 14 year olds to marry... until FLDS came to town.Does your
lifestyle also include burning down temples... Waco style?
I am so happy to learn that Texas will pursue criminal charges against the male
leaders of the flds. I wish other states would follow the example Texas is
It was foolish of FLDS to move to Texas. However it is clear that this is whole
situation is religious persection and bigotry. I am a supporter of prosecuting
those who break the law. Prosecute the men not the women and children! I still
do not agree that these children are in "immediate danger" to justify what has
happened. No charges have been filed and little evidence has been presented.
What about all other Texans that married at 14? you should take all the children
not just the FLDS kids Hilderbran!!!!! What's happening are all the other
I notice the San Angelo newspaper now longer has articles about the FLDS child
removal.I guess the NBC DateLine program last night (Sunday) really showed
exactly how wrong the locals were about the living conditions of the
children.I was startled by the smashed open door, the empty beds, the
excellent teaching conditions, and the entering of the church.I am ashamed
of what has been done in the name of "law and order".I wonder what
happened to the two missing children.
New Hampshire Law:457:4 Marriageable. no female below the age of 13 years
shall be capable of contracting a valid marriage
So if 25 or so families all decide to live in some communal setting and then
authorities believe they have probable cause to remove the children because of
abuse, wouldn't we be hearing from more than the mothers? Wouldn't one of the
fathers become a spokesperson and have daily press conferences to state their
case? I think that would be the expected response unless the group's leaders
had something to hide...
I've spent most of my life in Texas before moving to Utah. I was surprised that
the FLDS "moved" there, because I know my home state...sooner or later the FLDS
would be caught ignoring state law and authorities there wouldn't hesitate to
act. I also expect that there will eventually felony convictions
from these "spiritual" marriages with underage girls. This is a crushing blow
to the FLDS. I hate to see children separated from their mothers,
but in this case, it probably is for the best. What future do the boys have,
when two thirds will be kicked out of their religion and families to maintain
the 3 to 1 ratio for wives to husbands. What future do young girls have,
pregnant at such young ages? What a mess.
To be honest this guys comments certainly sound as if he would have been right
there burning the homes of "those mormons" in the early days of this country
too. Sad that we haven't learned anything over the years. How about going into
any slum in the country and taking all the children away because over 50% of all
child birth in the country now are to unwed mothers and many are underage. Very
sad they aren't willing to go after problems like that instead of just people
that don't believe the same as them.
We will see. Odds are that he is right.
My reading of Harvey Hildebran's comments are;The political establishment
in Texas will go to great lengths to support the Texas CPS. Texas does not want
the flds there. If my reading is correct the flds won't be getting their
children back for a long time, if ever. Life for the flds at the YFZ compound
will never return to what it was like before the raid. Will the flds now leave
Texas and go back to the more tolerable environs of Utah and Arizona?
I agree with the sentiments of this lawyer and hope the State of Texas can
protect these children from the environment they were growing up in. This is sad
for all concerned.
A little late for that. It's already another Short Creek.
This guy makes my skin crawl, and makes me ashamed to call myself not only a
Republican, but an American. What a crock to tailor legislation again a
specific religion. They certainly have no problem with young unmarried,
immature girls slutting around Dallas or Houston with older men getting
pregnant. No...you take responsibility and you're charged with a crime. I look
forward to the day your state gets charged with crimes against humanity.
Marriage law should be simple: No female child can be legally married without
both parents (exception 1 parent if 1 parent has legal custody) permission if
she is under 18. No female child can be married if under the age of 16, with
concent. A female child under 16 is considered a victim of rape, regardless of
consent, if the person having sex with the child, is more than 5 years older.
Marriage of the female child under 16 to a man more than 5 years her senior is
not legal and binding, hence the male partner is charged with rape, regardless
of consent.A man or woman can be married to no more than 1 man or woman,
of the opposite sex, at one time. A common law marriage is considered a legal
marriage if there have been sexually relations between the parties.(this
should help separated spouses, clarify the consequences of their actions,
recalling that until a divorce is final they are indeed married)Why
doesn't Utah have a simple common sense law such as this? I welcome your
Thank you Rep. Harvey Hilderbran of Texas!As a 67 year old member of The
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I applaud your efforts. May God
bless the good people of Texasfirstname.lastname@example.org
In other words, up until the time that FLDS moved in, Texas thought it was
perfectly OK for 13 year old females to be married with parental consent (yes
13, not 14 as this aricle states).
Only time and legal trials will vindicate Texas authorities or show their
mistakes. I suspect that Mr. Hilderbran is crossing his fingers and hoping that
their laws will stand up. Religious freedom still has a bit to say about how
all this will end up in the long run. Child sexual abuse should not be
tolerated. However, early marriage and raising a family to serve God as the
FLDS believe is a totally different thing. A woman who leaves the FLDS and
joins a very vocal Christian church should not be allowed to define what others
who remain in the FLDS really believe just as LDS, Baptist, Catholic apostates
are not very good sources for evaluating the beliefs and doctrines of their
It should also be noted that the Texas Criminal Code makes it a crime for a
person more than three years older than a minor under 17 to have sex with such a
minor. Some of the FLDS defenders are relying on the girls being older than 14
at the time of carnal knowledge as a way out. But, even so, most men involved
in the conduct would be more than three years older than the minor.
So Harvey, you idea of punishing the men is to take the children from their
mothers? Sort of like stopping bullies by taking the rest of the kids off the
Yay! Hilderbran. Thank goodness somebody updated that ridiculous law. No 14 year
old is mature enough to have a long term boyfriend, nevermind get married! It is
absurd that it took so long to raise that age up. For once a republican got it
Texas CPS shouted PEDOPHILE in the theater and needs to be held
accountable.Americans have civil liberties that the state of Texas
has decided don't really count. Remember Tulia? We see the exact same forces
of the state engaged in the most outrageous behavior. And the apologist for the
state keep saying the end justifies the means. The state of Texas is clearly
engaged in un-American and illegal aggression against its citizens.Return those children to their homes now.