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Calls from 'Sarah' kept on coming
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Dan | 10:26 a.m. April 24, 2008
The whole mormon issue needs to be investigated and squared away, it is a
national disgrace.
Where's Justice? | 10:44 a.m. April 24, 2008
I better not invite the TX Sherriff over for dinner cause my teenage daughter is
a little on the heavy side. He might "suspect" she is pregnant,
therefore justifiably remove her from my care.
Come on folks, a pregnancy test takes 3 minutes. How come there's still no facts released on whether those "suspected" abused, pregnant girls were really pregnant? Could it be because their teen pregancy rate is less than the rest of Texas?
Maybe they haven't made the whole "Polygamy = abuse" argument strong enough yet to cover up the fact that there were NO 12-13 yr olds being married off like they claimed!
What a sad,sad day for America.
Come on folks, a pregnancy test takes 3 minutes. How come there's still no facts released on whether those "suspected" abused, pregnant girls were really pregnant? Could it be because their teen pregancy rate is less than the rest of Texas?
Maybe they haven't made the whole "Polygamy = abuse" argument strong enough yet to cover up the fact that there were NO 12-13 yr olds being married off like they claimed!
What a sad,sad day for America.
Comments continue below
All I want... | 10:46 a.m. April 24, 2008
Is the illegal activities to discontinue at these FLDS compounds.
Just read up on the lost boys. There are hundreds of them. It broke my heart when I heard two of the lost boy's stories last night. Read some of the testimony during Warren Jeff's trial. Read the stories of the MANY female victims. The cycle needs to stop. These people need to stop hiding behind their religion and FOLLOW the law like the rest of us!
These people are still following the sick, twisted views of Warren Jeffs. It needs to end.
Just read up on the lost boys. There are hundreds of them. It broke my heart when I heard two of the lost boy's stories last night. Read some of the testimony during Warren Jeff's trial. Read the stories of the MANY female victims. The cycle needs to stop. These people need to stop hiding behind their religion and FOLLOW the law like the rest of us!
These people are still following the sick, twisted views of Warren Jeffs. It needs to end.
Re: Dan | 10:56 a.m. April 24, 2008
Along with the Baptist, Catholic, Christian issue... they all need to be
investigated and squared away; they're all a national disgrace!!!??
Raymond Takashi Swenson | 11:15 a.m. April 24, 2008
The Deseret Morning News MUST, based on this information, revise its ongoing
stories about the Texas raid to identify that the phone calls made to the Texas
women's shelter were just a few of many made by an adult woman in Colorado
Springs who made many similar calls at the same time using the same name and
story. To say in those stories that it was "a 16 year old girl who
called" is simply in conflict with the facts as we now know them. There is
no reasonable doubt now that the woman made the phone calls to Texas that
prompted the raid, since they are on her phone record. Every story about the
raid and its aftermath should state clearly that "The raid was based on
warrants accepting as true a bogus call by an older single woman in Colorado who
had no relationship to the FLDS group. One of the purposes of the warrant was
to find the caller, who was a fiction made up by the woman who made dozens of
calls on the same days to authorities and anti-FLDS groups in Utah, Washington,
and other states using the same false name and story."
Re: To: Idaho Attorney | 11:20 a.m. April 24, 2008
As far as I can tell, the Texas authorities did not get a second search warrant
after they found evidence of abuse at the ranch. So, the entire search was done
under the authority of the first warrant which is now tainted. No one can know
for sure how the courts will rule, but my guess is that all evidence seized
during the search will be ruled inadmissible.
What a shame. Too bad the Texas authorities didn't bother to understand the legal history of this sect. The criminal case appears botched beyond recovery. The civil case (custody of the children) is now being challenged on due process complaints. The Third Circuit Court of Texas has agreed to hear a motion this afternoon filed by some of the parents legal aid lawyers. Denial of due process is the successful claim used by the Short Creek parents to get their children back in the 50s. You simply can't seize hundreds of children, hold a two-day hearing without adequate opportunity for all parties to participate, and call that due process.
This was a golden opportunity to do something to help those abused by Jeffs and his cronies. Too bad!
What a shame. Too bad the Texas authorities didn't bother to understand the legal history of this sect. The criminal case appears botched beyond recovery. The civil case (custody of the children) is now being challenged on due process complaints. The Third Circuit Court of Texas has agreed to hear a motion this afternoon filed by some of the parents legal aid lawyers. Denial of due process is the successful claim used by the Short Creek parents to get their children back in the 50s. You simply can't seize hundreds of children, hold a two-day hearing without adequate opportunity for all parties to participate, and call that due process.
This was a golden opportunity to do something to help those abused by Jeffs and his cronies. Too bad!
CA | 11:28 a.m. April 24, 2008
You can read teh warrants on The Smoking Gun dot com.
God Bless Texas
God Bless Texas
Like everyone said | 11:28 a.m. April 24, 2008
CPS needs to investigate every call that comes in - whether it is a hoax or not
- because if just one time its not and they save a child - that is the most
important thing.
Because they did not know exactly where in YFZ ranch they were suppose to find the girl - they had to go in and do what they did - and they did find "something" that caused concern and in order to protect the children - they had to remove them - this is a compound not a city street where 99% are not related to each other. Yes, I feel bad for the children - but I also went to the FLDS site to see what they said about the raids - it was interesting that they had video of "happy children" only in 1 photograph was there a child above the age of 12 - all the rest were toddlers to primary school aged kids - no teenagers - where are the pictures of the happy teenagers? Makes you wonder... they need a better PR person to pull this one off.
Because they did not know exactly where in YFZ ranch they were suppose to find the girl - they had to go in and do what they did - and they did find "something" that caused concern and in order to protect the children - they had to remove them - this is a compound not a city street where 99% are not related to each other. Yes, I feel bad for the children - but I also went to the FLDS site to see what they said about the raids - it was interesting that they had video of "happy children" only in 1 photograph was there a child above the age of 12 - all the rest were toddlers to primary school aged kids - no teenagers - where are the pictures of the happy teenagers? Makes you wonder... they need a better PR person to pull this one off.
Frank | 11:33 a.m. April 24, 2008
"Does that mean that anyone who lives an a multi-dwelling property held in
common or by a trustee has fewer due process rights than people who own their
property individually? I think that's worth a legal challenge - all the way
up to the Supreme Court if necessary. "
Not less rights, the same rights. A search warrant is for searching one peice of property owned by one person. One peice of property has the same rights as another. It has nothing to do with the # people on that property and therefore you cant give property with many people on it more rights than land with one. If you want to cut property taxes by living on one spot, fine, but your subject to laws effecting one property.
If they want to change that fine, Ill just make sure that when I commit a horrific crime, I'm living with another criminal, that way if the cops ever bust in to his home to find him they cant touch me for my crime or any of the evidence I can lay around carefree.
Not less rights, the same rights. A search warrant is for searching one peice of property owned by one person. One peice of property has the same rights as another. It has nothing to do with the # people on that property and therefore you cant give property with many people on it more rights than land with one. If you want to cut property taxes by living on one spot, fine, but your subject to laws effecting one property.
If they want to change that fine, Ill just make sure that when I commit a horrific crime, I'm living with another criminal, that way if the cops ever bust in to his home to find him they cant touch me for my crime or any of the evidence I can lay around carefree.
Lilathe | 11:50 a.m. April 24, 2008
By your argument, if an apartment complex is owned by a corporation then
everyone living in the complex can be searched with only one search warrant?
The people living in individual apartments do not pay taxes, taxes are paid by the corporation. Same difference as here except these are separate houses on about 3 acres of land each.
The people living in individual apartments do not pay taxes, taxes are paid by the corporation. Same difference as here except these are separate houses on about 3 acres of land each.
Re: Frank | 11:54 a.m. April 24, 2008
Just to make sure on this one. First Frank, are you an attorney?
Second, suppose that two buddies of mine and I decide to buy a mountain property in common. We each build our own cabins on the property and occupy them as separate families, maintaining individual households - even locking our doors, securing our valuables etc. Now suppose that the authorities suspect one of my buddies of a crime. Because we hold the property in common, it would be okay for a judge to authorize a warrant to search the entire property, right? And if they find some evidence of an unrelated crime on my other buddy's property, it is fair game?
If Framk is not an attorney, I'd appreciate a real lawyer commenting on the above scenario. Is there defined law on this?
Second, suppose that two buddies of mine and I decide to buy a mountain property in common. We each build our own cabins on the property and occupy them as separate families, maintaining individual households - even locking our doors, securing our valuables etc. Now suppose that the authorities suspect one of my buddies of a crime. Because we hold the property in common, it would be okay for a judge to authorize a warrant to search the entire property, right? And if they find some evidence of an unrelated crime on my other buddy's property, it is fair game?
If Framk is not an attorney, I'd appreciate a real lawyer commenting on the above scenario. Is there defined law on this?
California | 12:12 p.m. April 24, 2008
Question:
Because FLDS is SO CLOSE to the name LDS, why doesn't the LDS church bring a lawsuit against the FLDS church to get them to CHANGE THEIR NAME name?!!
Because FLDS is SO CLOSE to the name LDS, why doesn't the LDS church bring a lawsuit against the FLDS church to get them to CHANGE THEIR NAME name?!!
Tex | 12:29 p.m. April 24, 2008
Anti-polygamy activist Flora Jessop also spoke to "Sarah" for more
than 40 hours beginning March 30. "She sounded just like a little
girl," Jessop told the Deseret News. "She was really damn
good."
Flora Jessop's credibility is at absolute zero.
Flora Jessop's credibility is at absolute zero.
Re: Tex | 12:54 p.m. April 24, 2008
At least the FLDS men can hope so.
Frank | 1:02 p.m. April 24, 2008
Nope, just to clarify, not an attorney. Everything stated is my opinion.
Re "Dan | 10:26 a.m" | 1:05 p.m. April 24, 2008
Sooo... What exatcly IS the "Mormon issue" you are talking about that
is a "national disgrace" and needs to be investigated?
Your comment lends creadence to those crazy commenters saying "Watch out... Mormons/you may be next".
I thought they were wacko, but your comment makes is sound like they knew exactly what they were talking about.
Your comment lends creadence to those crazy commenters saying "Watch out... Mormons/you may be next".
I thought they were wacko, but your comment makes is sound like they knew exactly what they were talking about.
Re "All I want... | 10:46 " | 1:33 p.m. April 24, 2008
Exactly what is "Illegal" about the "Lost Boys"? I'm
not saying it's OK, I'm just asking "What law was
broken"?
You said reading about the Lost Boys made you support what is going on in Texas, and all you want is for the FLDS to quit breaking the law.
The Lost Boy legend may be loathsome to us, but what "Law" did they break? Are we now willing to support taking legal action against people because we find their life-style unethical from our perspective?
You said reading about the Lost Boys made you support what is going on in Texas, and all you want is for the FLDS to quit breaking the law.
The Lost Boy legend may be loathsome to us, but what "Law" did they break? Are we now willing to support taking legal action against people because we find their life-style unethical from our perspective?
cbk16 | 1:34 p.m. April 24, 2008
So will the government of Texas give the children back to their mothers with
punitive compensation now that the raid was made based on a hoax?
Re: RE: All I want | 1:50 p.m. April 24, 2008
Not just the lost boys are making me support this raid, there are numerous other
things. Welfare fraud, child brides, transporting children from compound to
compound. The list goes on. The numerous victims speak for themselves.
Read up on child abandonment. No one should hide behind "religion" to do these things.
Read up on child abandonment. No one should hide behind "religion" to do these things.
Veteran | 2:00 p.m. April 24, 2008
On the phone number issue, my stepson moved here to Colorado from Wyoming and
kept his cell number from WY, and one of my Army buddies has moved here from
Pensylvania and kept his PA number; both of them so their familes back home had
a local number to call. This is just to point out that the phone number being
from CO is not revelant.
What is revelant are three things:
1) The exact location of the phone could have been determined with a supenoa to the phone company. this would have revealed that the caller was in Colorado Springs.
2) CPS needs to investigate every claim, whether or not it is later determined to be a hoax. If they wait to determine the call is a hoax and a child dies, would it make you feel better?
3) Evidence of abuse was found, and can be upheld in a court of law, although it is beginning to look like the ball was dropped on getting a second warrant to continue the search.
Just my two bits.
What is revelant are three things:
1) The exact location of the phone could have been determined with a supenoa to the phone company. this would have revealed that the caller was in Colorado Springs.
2) CPS needs to investigate every claim, whether or not it is later determined to be a hoax. If they wait to determine the call is a hoax and a child dies, would it make you feel better?
3) Evidence of abuse was found, and can be upheld in a court of law, although it is beginning to look like the ball was dropped on getting a second warrant to continue the search.
Just my two bits.
Also | 2:09 p.m. April 24, 2008
It is a third degree felony if you abandon a child in Utah. It is also
considered child abuse.
just me | 2:24 p.m. April 24, 2008
Have tou seen the pictures? You can see this place on google Earth. There are no
guard towers. There were no arms found on the ranch. These kids are crying in
the videos. They did not want to be taken away. What kind of lawsuit do you
think is going to happen with the two 22 year olds that they took into custody
because they would not recieve a drivers lisence as identity. Think about this
happening to you.
Contrarian | 2:35 p.m. April 24, 2008
The Texas authorities have been under pressure to take action against the FLDS
for at least the last three years but they did not have the evidence to charge
anyone with a crime. That is why Flora Jessop was put in place as a
"shelter" operator - to come up with some basis for a raid. The FLDS
was targeted at least three years ago when it was put on a list of "Hate
Groups" by the Southern Poverty Law Center. Legislation to change the
Texas age of consent from fourteen to sixteen and legislation to re-define
incest was pushed through by a single legislator, Harvey Hildenbran, with the
express purpose of targeting the FLDS.
Texas law enforcement with all the help from Flora Jessop, the SPLC, and the Texas legislature still could not come up with evidence of criminal activity so they used what they all knew was fake and withheld their knowledge until the children were taken away. They still do not have evidence that would lead them to arrest any FLDS member for any crime. Even the DNA evidence will not prove a crime because it cannot prove that conception took place in Texas.
Texas law enforcement with all the help from Flora Jessop, the SPLC, and the Texas legislature still could not come up with evidence of criminal activity so they used what they all knew was fake and withheld their knowledge until the children were taken away. They still do not have evidence that would lead them to arrest any FLDS member for any crime. Even the DNA evidence will not prove a crime because it cannot prove that conception took place in Texas.
Where are the believers? | 3:13 p.m. April 24, 2008
Where are the comments from the people who in the early days of the raid were
total believers that this girl did exist. I remember numerous comments written
to the affect that... "They probably hid her in the underground caverns
they dug to hide pregnant kids and to shuttle women around", or "She
was probably wisked away by the FLDS men to a super-secret compound where they
keep the pregnant kids" or "She's probably tied up in the
Temple", or "She's probably in Hilldale by now". Some would
have probably believed she was abducted by aliens before they would acknowlege
that the call was probably a hoax.
I suspected it was a hoax from the beginning and was just wondering what those people are saying now that the facts are in (that she doesn't exist). Sounds like the most common reaction is, "Well it doesn't matter that she never existed, when they got out there they found something bad, so even if it was a hoax, it was justified".
My point is... Many of us are quick to believe all the urban-legends about the FLDS, but slow to adjust our prejudices when facts come in.
I suspected it was a hoax from the beginning and was just wondering what those people are saying now that the facts are in (that she doesn't exist). Sounds like the most common reaction is, "Well it doesn't matter that she never existed, when they got out there they found something bad, so even if it was a hoax, it was justified".
My point is... Many of us are quick to believe all the urban-legends about the FLDS, but slow to adjust our prejudices when facts come in.
John Lambert | 3:19 p.m. April 24, 2008
I was reading through one of the affadavits that lead to the search. In this
it is said that Sarah was in the hospital to have her broken ribs treated.
Is there any hospital record of this operation? Two other questions, why did the doctor just let her go, and why did the CPS not go to the hospital to check out the story.
Either Sarah is a total hoax, which it seems, or the first investigation should be why the doctors at the hospital are just releasing people with broken bones. The whole hospital story sounds like a hoax and should have exposed this whole thing before it happened.
Is there any hospital record of this operation? Two other questions, why did the doctor just let her go, and why did the CPS not go to the hospital to check out the story.
Either Sarah is a total hoax, which it seems, or the first investigation should be why the doctors at the hospital are just releasing people with broken bones. The whole hospital story sounds like a hoax and should have exposed this whole thing before it happened.
Too simple | 3:44 p.m. April 24, 2008
For Texas law enforcement. Upon the initial warrant, they already had the
compound under lockdown. If they found additional evidence of criminal activity,
all they needed to do was telephone the judge, state their probable cause and
expand the original warrant or get one specific to what was needed. Time was not
of the essence at that point. However, due process was abandoned in the feeding
frenzy. With four years of preparation, is it unreasonable to presume that the
legal ducks might have been lined up?
Any unbiased mind can conceive that the neighborhood attitude was "damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead." But, I wasting my time. There are no longer enough people concerned with principle to swallow their bigotry and follow the law of the land, let alone a moral compass. Not my children, not my religion, not my problem!! Hoo boy.
Any unbiased mind can conceive that the neighborhood attitude was "damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead." But, I wasting my time. There are no longer enough people concerned with principle to swallow their bigotry and follow the law of the land, let alone a moral compass. Not my children, not my religion, not my problem!! Hoo boy.
Fred | 4:47 p.m. April 24, 2008
Someone needs to check to see if Sam Brower spent any time in Colorado prior to
the start of the crank calls. This is his style.
Anonymous | 4:51 p.m. April 24, 2008
Not matter what this crazy woman did it's not the point here. what they
found out it's what it matters and thankfully all those children are not
longer abused.
To Contrarian | 5:15 p.m. April 24, 2008
I fear your logic, information and reason is ill placed in this forum of
speculation, inuendo and outright legend fabrication. The press and those quick
to pile on never let the facts get in the way of a juicy story. We have become a
nation of reality show watchers. That there is little reality in such shows
never gets in the way of a good rating.
zoar | 5:22 p.m. April 24, 2008
When the civil lawsuits are filed I wonder what figure the lawyers will be
asking for each of the clients as compensation for pain and suffering plus
punitive damages. The burden of proof is a lot less stringent then a criminal
case, just ask OJ. Four-hundred plus children, that is a lot of lawsuits.
To just me | 6:58 p.m. April 24, 2008
Have you ever seen any child removed from a home for being a victim of abuse -
usually the child cries and does not want to leave - all children react the same
way - their families are the only thing they know - of course they are going to
cry when they are taken away- and about the two 22 year olds - they can sue all
they want - but I guarantee any court would say they were being protective of
minor children and until it could be proven these women were older - they had to
believe they were minors... ever hear of a FAKE ID?
Fake ID? | 4:56 a.m. April 26, 2008
So now the FLDS are in the business of manufacturing birth certificates and
drivers licenses? The tall tales keep growing taller.
The state only has to look up the birth certificates or drivers licenses they were given to verify their veracity. Instead, the State wholesale denied people the opportunity to prove their identity, by claiming they documents "COULD" be fake, and you dolts just lap it up.
The state only has to look up the birth certificates or drivers licenses they were given to verify their veracity. Instead, the State wholesale denied people the opportunity to prove their identity, by claiming they documents "COULD" be fake, and you dolts just lap it up.
Norman Rockwell Not! | 11:32 a.m. April 26, 2008
What alarms me the most is the lack of real investigation and analysis on the
part of reporters.
One story after another tells little less than the events taking place instead of any kind of in depth analysis or fact finding.
How hard would it be to find out if the ranch has a wall or a fence. Would that be unusual for ranches in Texas?
Why do we hear so much of what authorities are saying and almost nothing from the hundreds of attorneys called upon to represent the kids and parents.
For goodness sakes, can we get some real reporters down there and not just those looking for two minutes of sensationalism?
Finally, how sad to me that so very few internet forums get it...
It shouldn't only be an outrage to folks on a Utah Newspaper foum.
Sadly America appears indifferent to the sound of parental rights and religous freedom rushing by like a freight train.
One story after another tells little less than the events taking place instead of any kind of in depth analysis or fact finding.
How hard would it be to find out if the ranch has a wall or a fence. Would that be unusual for ranches in Texas?
Why do we hear so much of what authorities are saying and almost nothing from the hundreds of attorneys called upon to represent the kids and parents.
For goodness sakes, can we get some real reporters down there and not just those looking for two minutes of sensationalism?
Finally, how sad to me that so very few internet forums get it...
It shouldn't only be an outrage to folks on a Utah Newspaper foum.
Sadly America appears indifferent to the sound of parental rights and religous freedom rushing by like a freight train.
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In my mind that puts the credibility of Carolyn Jessop (the anti-FLDS author who listened to the bogus calls) in question. Yet many of us believe anything she says about the FLDS, even when not one person can corroborate it (like the story she told on CNN about newborn infants being water boarded, etc).
What I'm wondering is... Don't they have Caller-ID in Texas? Swinton called 20 times. Couldn't they lookup the number they were getting the calls from and confirm if it was registered to a polygamist in Texas or a crank-caller in Colorado?